HTML5 or Flash?

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Moderators: phlip, Moderators General, Prelates

In your opinion, what should be the interactive media standard for the next generation of the web?

Adobe Flash
14
12%
Microsoft Silverlight
6
5%
Oracle Java/JavaFX
3
3%
WHATWG's HTML5
76
64%
GET INTERACTIVE MEDIA OFF THE WEB!
14
12%
Other (Please tell us!)
5
4%
 
Total votes: 118

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theta4
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HTML5 or Flash?

Postby theta4 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:21 am UTC

I'm scared for Adobe. They've pretty much got the professional creative industries (design, print, art, animation) covered, but with the release of HTML5, Adobe Flash seems threatened to leave the net as a standard for interactive media. Personally, I love Flash. I have Flash CS4 Pro (along with the rest of the CS4 Production Premium) and I think it's simply amazing. But people have been suggesting that HTML5 will remove Flash from its office as Web Media Standard and force it to move to another industry.

This thread is not about what I think. I've got a blog for that.

Tell me what you think. That's what I'm curious about.

NOTE: the poll isn't about your predictions. The poll is to get an idea of what people's opinions on the matter are. Save predictions for the thread.

This doesn't look very CSey to me... moved to RW. - phlip
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby lulzfish » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:57 am UTC

I dislike HTML and HTTP. There doesn't seem to be any server push, and a lot of stuff has just been hacked in over the years on top of a system that was made to share documents, not GUIs.

If there was a reasonable alternative to the entire web stack, I would support it. Sadly, there isn't.
As far as plausible web technologies go, I support HTML 5. It's already working partially, it doesn't rely on plugins, and it's not closed off like Flash is.

I absolutely hate Flash. It's holding the Internet back, and it's holding mobile devices back because they haven't even got an official ARM version yet. Linux support is decent, but it's still closed, so everything that's made in Flash is something that says "I don't want this to be viewed by anything new." There's no official support outside of the big 3 desktop operating systems, there's precious little support outside of x86 and x86_64... It's a terrible standard. Again, I hate it.

I haven't even heard of JavaFX recently. I think Java's died. It's really slow to load and nobody likes it.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby achan1058 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:55 am UTC

I would prefer some open source version of Flash, failing that, a closed source version of flash. If nothing else, flash can be sandboxed away from rest of JavaScript and such. Also, I like Flash games, and I can't quite see how to do that with HTML anytime soon, unless you can get someone motivated enough to create an insane editor as good as the Flash editor (which I don't see happening anytime soon).

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby lulzfish » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:33 am UTC

achan1058 wrote:I would prefer some open source version of Flash, failing that, a closed source version of flash. If nothing else, flash can be sandboxed away from rest of JavaScript and such. Also, I like Flash games, and I can't quite see how to do that with HTML anytime soon, unless you can get someone motivated enough to create an insane editor as good as the Flash editor (which I don't see happening anytime soon).

Between SVG, Javascript, and SMIL, you should be able to recreate anything Flash can do for games, but there isn't a unified tool for creating such things that I'm aware of.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Area Man » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:31 am UTC

I'm somewhat torn between the last three options. HTML should be used for web content (that's what it's for), but providing more specialized but open and safe mechanisms are useful too. Reasonably hopeful alternatives:
- WebGL
- Google Native Client

But everything's bound to be misused by naive designers, like flash is.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Xanthir » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:41 pm UTC

lulzfish wrote:There doesn't seem to be any server push

That's what WebSockets are for! Bidirectional communication channels between client and server, using a simple enough system that you can write the necessary server code yourself in less than an hour.

Chrome's new version is the first to ship with experimental support for them. Check it out.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Earlz » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:47 pm UTC

This should extremely be in the flamewars forum. And please remove that link to get more traffic to your blog(or word it differently)...

If Adobe made Flash open source, I wouldn't have much of a problem is it. But as it is, its very dumb how much control they have, and also their security track record is very poor.

With HTML5, all the control is not in one proprietary entity...
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby theta4 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:53 pm UTC

Earlz wrote:This should extremely be in the flamewars forum. And please remove that link to get more traffic to your blog(or word it differently)...

Link removed.

This is not intended to be a flamewar. It's intended to be a discussion of the pros and cons of the different formats.

Personally, I believe in Flash, because Flash is easier and more friendly to develop with. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, it's closed source. But Adobe's making money doing something they're good at, and I respect that. Capitalism is the way to go.

And who voted for Silverlight?!
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby stephentyrone » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

theta4 wrote:Personally, I believe in Flash, because Flash is easier and more friendly to develop with.


Citation needed.

Sorry for being snarky, but personal experience is seldom a good indicator of what is "easier to develop with". People like what they know.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby achan1058 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:29 pm UTC

stephentyrone wrote:
theta4 wrote:Personally, I believe in Flash, because Flash is easier and more friendly to develop with.


Citation needed.

Sorry for being snarky, but personal experience is seldom a good indicator of what is "easier to develop with". People like what they know.
Look at how many games, puzzle sites, etc. are written in Flash. Even though correlation != causation, it does indicate something here. Until there is an HTML 5 editor that is at least as good (and probably needs to be better) than Flash editor, it stands no chance.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby lulzfish » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:50 am UTC

[quote="theta4"]Personally, I believe in Flash, because Flash is easier and more friendly to develop with. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, it's closed source. But Adobe's making money doing something they're good at, and I respect that. Capitalism is the way to go.
You are right on all accounts, but as a capitalist, I'd rather not pay for something that's going to lock me into whatever platforms Adobe decides to port Flash to.
I don't want to pay for Adobe to keep developing mediocre software with long release times and no intent of ever opening it.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby theta4 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:13 am UTC

Adobe is simply doing what the smart engineer would do. "For $2,000 I'll build you one that goes to CS4."
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Area Man » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:41 am UTC

theta4 wrote:Adobe is simply doing what the smart engineer would do. "For $2,000 I'll build you one that goes to CS4."

Guess that makes you the dumb-ass punker... :P

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby theta4 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:08 am UTC

Area Man wrote:
theta4 wrote:Adobe is simply doing what the smart engineer would do. "For $2,000 I'll build you one that goes to CS4."

Guess that makes you the dumb-ass punker... :P

I guess I kinda walked right into that one...
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Earlz » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:27 am UTC

theta4 wrote:
Earlz wrote:This should extremely be in the flamewars forum. And please remove that link to get more traffic to your blog(or word it differently)...

Link removed.

This is not intended to be a flamewar. It's intended to be a discussion of the pros and cons of the different formats.

Personally, I believe in Flash, because Flash is easier and more friendly to develop with. Sure, it's expensive. Sure, it's closed source. But Adobe's making money doing something they're good at, and I respect that. Capitalism is the way to go.

And who voted for Silverlight?!


I voted HTML5, but I'm more ok with Silverlight than Flash. Silverlight though IS a pain to develop with. XAML markup is the *WORST* markup I have ever seen.. Seriously, all the namespaces and complex shit makes it horrible. Just because XML has some complex features, does not mean you should make use of every single one of them.

That said, I still like Silverlight more because there is some preview-worthy support in Mono for it, and it isn't patent encumbered..

HTML5 though, is extremely easy, and it's easy to do right. How hard is it to make a video tag? You do <video> and put in the source video file and poof it instantly works. What is even better is that the browser can put it into the DOM trivially. So, making a movie transparent, or resizing(with javascript) is extremely easy, whatever. And when you right click on the movie you can save it.

I have a movie. I bet I can put it into an HTML5 page a lot quicker than you can build a flash video that has it embedded. And also, I can do it without buying a $800 piece of software and make it on my free OS that is on my computer.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Amnesiasoft » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:37 am UTC

HTML5. I want to be able to use the internet right out of the box. I don't want to be stuck finding plugins, making sure they've installed correctly, finding that "oh wait, you wanted it in THAT browser too?" was something the installer decided for me.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby phillipsjk » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:01 am UTC

They are calling it "interactive media" these days are they?

Client-side scripting takes control of the computer away from the user. It sort-of rules out "lightweight" browsers that work well with less than 256MB of RAM. It is frequently mis-used, sometimes as a perverse Turing test: you are human if you have enough CPU time to waste on scripting.

Web-browsers were never designed to act as some kind of remote OS front-end: web-browsers are designed to get information for the user as efficiently as possible. Client-side scripting makes web-browsing less predictable, and the very nature of scripting means the amount of CPU time that can be requested is without bound. (Yes, I realize you can apply the same arguments to PostScript).

It may be a little of topic, but Adobe Screwed the PDF format as well: it became popular because it essentially worked like paper: hard to edit, predictable presentation, easy to share. They then added (about version 6.0 of the reader) client-side scripting and tried to make it more like a "web-browser." (I don't recall if DRM was always present, but that is something paper doesn't have either).

Back in the early '90s I was searching Card catalogs and full-text magazine Databases remotely over a 2400 baud modem. This was possible because of VT100/52 (80x25 text) terminal emulation and telnet. Until my ISP went bankrupt in about 2004, I was also able to use telnet for checking my e-mail, newsgroups, and even web-browsing. The computer requirements are not that great: even a slow at the time IBM PC (8Mhz) would work (The server must be able to handle the simultaneous users though). One day I was surprised I didn't have to do anything special to get the printer to work: it just did (easier than printing in many DOS programs). Having applications in the "cloud" is nothing new: there are now just several more layers of mis-direction. If you want, there are protocols like the much maligned X Window protocol that allow you to use (well behaved) GUI applications remotely.

Part of the problem is that putting your applications in the "cloud" is often silly anyway. The benefit is that you don't have to maintain them. The disadvantage is that you lose control over your data.

Edit: I actually liked the concept of Java Applets: there was a clear distinction between what ran code and what did not. They never really caught on though. Java FX is not the same thing (restricted to certain countries and OS's).
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Xanthir » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:20 pm UTC

In other words, why don't those damn kids stay off your lawn?
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby phillipsjk » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:00 am UTC

No, I still live in the basement :(

My point was all this unnecessary client-side scripting raises the barrier of entry for new (possibly less buggy) web-browsers, and does not improve the user experience in any consistent way. Cascading Style Sheets support output media independence (such as audio or text-based interfaces): something graphical browsers running scripts do not (without awkward hacks).
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby lulzfish » Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:57 am UTC

Yes, the Web is a terrible hack to deliver GUIs based on a system that was supposed to deliver static documents. And there's too much invested to fix it now.

:(

Just like power outlets, and Flash. Too fundamental to be fixed cheaply, and they'll probably last forever as a single bad decision that snowballed into a de facto standard.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Doodle77 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:11 am UTC

I know all you guys hate it, but Silverlight is actually a much better platform than Flash. It has a GPL'd implementation (of the most important parts at least), Flash doesn't. It's much faster than Flash. It has support for programming concepts that Flash can't even dream of.

Also, HTML5 can't replace all that flash can do.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:19 am UTC

Doodle77 wrote:I know all you guys hate it, but Silverlight is actually a much better platform than Flash. It has a GPL'd implementation (of the most important parts at least), Flash doesn't. It's much faster than Flash. It has support for programming concepts that Flash can't even dream of.

Also, HTML5 can't replace all that flash can do.

I can't say too much about Silverlight. I simply don't see it anywhere.
I personally hate Flash as a video container. Flash is great for animated vector graphics and simple games, but it disappoints as a video container. I always use Safari's Activity Window to extract and download the video from anything I find worth watching and then I can tag it and add it to iTunes. I do like the premise of HTML 5: video is rendered directly in the browser without Flash attempting to do something it wasn't designed to do
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Alexander The 1st » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:15 am UTC

I do like the premise of HTML 5: video is rendered directly in the browser without Flash attempting to do something it wasn't designed to do


There's one collonary to that - the world never works as planned; things mutate, and you can't plan for all possible mutations - if you try, the system will simply mutate to something that isn't one of the things you've planned for.

Case and point: Rickrolling, the internet in general, Java, Flash, any of the consoles, number-crunching/graphics-displaying computers, the steam engine, the keyboard, the mouse, electronic diagram conventions, gamepads, etc.

Everything's mutated; even HTML 5 video will be mutated to another use [Possibly an attack vector - I can see it possibly being good for streaming malicious code straight to the computer; granted, I don't know enough about video streaming to know if this is easily possible, but I do know that, for example, people have managed to buffer-overflow out of the gcn emulation for the wii, and there's plenty of security issues with Flash - I don't see those going away with HTML 5. But I disgress.] - while it may be intended for web apps, I'm sure someone out there will come up with another use for the semantics, and mutate it beyond web apps, and something else - what that is, I don't know.

Personally, at least Flash is easy to program for, and is consistent among all the browsers supporting Flash in one form or another.

EDIT: Personally, haven't seen or used Silverlight as far as I know, so...yeah.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby acluett89 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:00 am UTC

Flash isn't going away any time soon, but at least now with HTML5 video, we have a good alternative. The rise of the iPad, iPhone and other mobile devices that don't support flash will all encourage less flash reliance in the future.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Xanthir » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:24 pm UTC

Don't forget <canvas>, as well, which should allow many of the simpler games you can create with Flash (though we'll need decent authoring tools before that gets anywhere).
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Alexander The 1st » Mon May 17, 2010 10:18 am UTC

Sort of beating a dead horse here, but recently, I was looking into Silverlight, and I found something interesting with their System Requirements...Namely, you can Silverlight on a 1.6GHz or higher processor, but Macs need a 1.83GHz. Same memory space (512 MB of Ram), more cpu clocks...for a requirement.

http://www.microsoft.com/getsilverlight ... fault.aspx

Now, if someone could clarify if Macs go with Intel processors lower than 1.83GHz (If they don't, the rest of this shot), but if they do, it seems the claims that Adobe doesn't work well on Mac is because Apple won't let them use hardware acceleration or look at the APIs, etc. might hold some ground, given that Silverlight has simmilar issues (I don't think, at least for now, that Microsoft has any reason to cripple their use on Macs intentionally at the moment, given that they're behind the game with Flash; any advantage would be useful. Hence Moonlight/Mono).
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby J the Ninja » Tue May 25, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

There were a few Intel Macs lower than 1.83Ghz. The first MacBook Air, and an early Mac Mini had a 1.5Ghz Core Solo, IIRC. They're both pretty rare though. To the point where you might consider them an anomaly and not something worth supporting when almost everything else is faster. Also, Apple finally did document the hardware acceleration API, it's here.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Alexander The 1st » Wed May 26, 2010 1:27 am UTC

J the Ninja wrote:There were a few Intel Macs lower than 1.83Ghz. The first MacBook Air, and an early Mac Mini had a 1.5Ghz Core Solo, IIRC. They're both pretty rare though. To the point where you might consider them an anomaly and not something worth supporting when almost everything else is faster. Also, Apple finally did document the hardware acceleration API, it's here.


Fair enough - I wasn't certain what the point of that line was, and wanted to clarify what the field was like.

That said, I took a look at teh VDA Framework, and it seems to be only available for Mac OS X 10.6.3. Which came out in March? Not only does Adobe need to re-work entire parts of Flash based on software versions of this now for Macs, it actually only solves newer models. It would be nice if programs could insist this API be installed on previous versions of Macs, then there would be a market share reason to actually re-code what already works partially on a Mac - then we wouldn't have this problem. Furthermore, only 3 Mac-applicable video cards? That seems like a barrier to entry for hardware acceleration for enthusiast computers.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby recurve boy » Thu May 27, 2010 12:35 pm UTC

Doodle77 wrote:Also, HTML5 can't replace all that flash can do.


So they will come up HTML6 & CSS4 or whatever. & we will come up with cool tools to do other cool stuff in HTML5. Like so:
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Alexander The 1st » Thu May 27, 2010 10:09 pm UTC

So they will come up HTML6 & CSS4 or whatever. & we will come up with cool tools to do other cool stuff in HTML5.


The reason we had Flash in the first place? We didn't bother making HTML 5, and developers wanted easy web-based interactive elements that rendered identically for everyone.

With HTML 5 also going somewhat modular, HTML 6 is likely far away, and in the meantime, Flash actually renders in each browser - with a plugin, yes, but it renders regardless - it works now.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Thesh » Sat May 29, 2010 5:32 am UTC

Microsoft develops great products, and they have a ton of resources. Silverlight is a good product, but it's not popular enough and the open source community will never support it.

Flash did a lot for the internet, the most important of which is that it got us away from having to install codec packs to watch videos.

HTML5, to early to tell but this is what the open source community is supporting. Unfortunately javascript is necessary to do real programming, and one area where both silverlight and flash win over HTML5 is the ability to do strong typing (although this isn't a big deal to most people, I hate variants).

What would I like to see? An open standard, with the primary implementation being open source, and with good open-source development tools. This standard should be specifically geared specifically towards interactive multimedia, and the scripting should be done by a strongly typed language. The more generic you try to get, the more time consuming it is to develop.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sat May 29, 2010 10:41 am UTC

Strong typing only starts to matter when you work on larger projects, which client-side-scripting should never be. If you are bumping up against the limits of JavaScript, move to CGI or write a desktop application.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby theta4 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:47 am UTC

Flash is also consistent across browsers.

HTML5 may be standardized, but nothing terribly productive will be able to get done until JavaScript is standardized as well. There's still too much browser-checking code that needs to be written to make sure scripts works across the board.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby zacwin » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:43 pm UTC

Flash is not good for SEO and Google does not rank sites well that feature flash. I personally stick with html and php for most of my websites because I enjoy the free search engine traffic.

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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby HermanBlount » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:15 pm UTC

Earlz wrote:You do <video> and put in the source video file and poof it instantly works


...if your video is in the proper container format and was encoded in a format the your browser can decode, yes it instantly works. I admit it appears to be a more elegant solution than Flash's <embed><object>javascript cluster-fuck, except instead of using a Flash plugin to decode the video, your using a decoder built-in to the browser. I doubt browsers will support the same formats because of licensing issues, which brings us right back to where we started: no standards and a bunch of hacks to make video play properly in every possible browser configuration.
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby styrofoam » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

HermanBlount wrote:...if your video is in the proper container format and was encoded in a format the your browser can decode, yes it instantly works. I admit it appears to be a more elegant solution than Flash's <embed><object>javascript cluster-fuck, except instead of using a Flash plugin to decode the video, your using a decoder built-in to the browser. I doubt browsers will support the same formats because of licensing issues, which brings us right back to where we started: no standards and a bunch of hacks to make video play properly in every possible browser configuration.

a) Safari is the only HTML5-capable browser that doesn't support Ogg, and it supports H26.4. Just encode it in 2 formats, and you'll be set (very different than the WMV,MPG,RM,MOV mess that we had back before Flash).
b) Google is trying to get everyone on WebM. If it succeeds, the whole problem is solved. If not, it could be a matter of replacing all your Ogg with WebM (since all the ogg-supporting browsers seem to be implementing WebM).
c) The only browser I know of that doesn't support <source> is Konqueror, and that's being fixed in KDE4.5.

Code: Select all

<video src="vid.ogv" controls="controls">
<source type="video/mp4" src="video.mp4">
<source type="video/ogg" src="video.ogv">
<embed src="video.mp4"> <!-- for IE compatibility. If you prefer Flash, use that. -->
</video>
aadams wrote:I am a very nice whatever it is I am.

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hotaru
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby hotaru » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

HermanBlount wrote:I doubt browsers will support the same formats because of licensing issues, which brings us right back to where we started: no standards and a bunch of hacks to make video play properly in every possible browser configuration.

any decent browser will support webm and at least one of h.264 and ogg theora. any good browser will support all three.

styrofoam wrote:

Code: Select all

<embed src="video.mp4"> <!-- for IE compatibility. If you prefer Flash, use that. -->

IE 9 will support h.264, so this won't be necessary for much longer.

Code: Select all

factorial product enumFromTo 1
isPrime n 
factorial (1) `mod== 1

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styrofoam
Posts: 256
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby styrofoam » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:56 pm UTC

hotaru wrote:any decent browser will support webm and at least one of h.264 and ogg theora. any good browser will support all three.

WebM isn't very widely implemented right now, so you'll want to use H.264 and Ogg. Also, neither Firefox or Opera support H.264, nor does Safari or IE support Ogg. There aren't many other browsers out there...

edit: Now that I think about it, the only "good" browsers out there are WebKit or KHTML based, and only Chrome actually comes with codecs (the rest depend on system configuration).
aadams wrote:I am a very nice whatever it is I am.

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Berengal
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby Berengal » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:19 am UTC

Firefox, Opera and Chrome has developer builds with WebM support already. Adobe has claimed they will support WebM in flash, though how far along they are I don't know. Indeed, Google, Mozilla, Opera and Adobe are listed as the main supporters of WebM on the project's website. IE will support it if the codec's installed (how windows handles missing codecs these days I don't know, but in this day and age I should be able to expect a simple "do you want to automagically add support?" should I not?)

Apple are alone in not supporting it, though I can't really see any reasons why they shouldn't change their minds soon.

Apart from old versions of IE, all browsers, and flash, update themselves automatically, and since the old versions of IE use flash for their video support anyway they're not an issue. WebM seems to be easy to support, going by the speed the developer builds appeared, so I expect it to be in the next release cycle for all browsers, which I'd guess means many people will have support over summer, and most by fall. That is, unless something entirely unexpected and idiotic happens, like a successful patent troll.
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students who are motivated by money: As potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

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styrofoam
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Re: HTML5 or Flash?

Postby styrofoam » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

Berengal wrote:Firefox, Opera and Chrome has developer builds with WebM support already. Adobe has claimed they will support WebM in flash, though how far along they are I don't know. Indeed, Google, Mozilla, Opera and Adobe are listed as the main supporters of WebM on the project's website. IE will support it if the codec's installed (how windows handles missing codecs these days I don't know, but in this day and age I should be able to expect a simple "do you want to automagically add support?" should I not?)

It is a step forward since VP8>Theora, but you'll still need 2 codecs (H.264 and WebM). Sure, Flash can use either WebM or H.264 now, but otherwise the only people moving to WebM are people who already support Ogg. And did I mention that you can't just use Flash to fill in the blanks for WebM support? (Apple's reasons for not allowing Flash on the iDevices is becoming clearer and clearer).
aadams wrote:I am a very nice whatever it is I am.


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