Transformers Line incorrect?

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Minirogue
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Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby Minirogue » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:13 am UTC

I just saw transformers yesterday, and I just now thought of how a line is illogical and stupid relating to computers:

when the hot analyst chick is telling that one dude how it is impossible for any person to have hacked their system that fast, she says "even using brute force methods, it would take 20 years" or something like that. My question is: aren't brute force methods by definition less time-efficient? but I could be wrong, I never quite grasped completely the details of what was run-time-efficient.

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby Bondolon » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:16 am UTC

Minirogue wrote:I just saw transformers yesterday, and I just now thought of how a line is illogical and stupid relating to computers:

when the hot analyst chick is telling that one dude how it is impossible for any person to have hacked their system that fast, she says "even using brute force methods, it would take 20 years" or something like that. My question is: aren't brute force methods by definition less time-efficient? but I could be wrong, I never quite grasped completely the details of what was run-time-efficient.


Yeah, it doesn't make sense. "Even driving a tricycle, it would take three years to get from California to India." Doesn't work.

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Postby Eschatokyrios » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:46 am UTC

Huh, I thought there was something odd about that line when I heard it. Ah well, it was an action movie. I wasn't thinking particularly hard during it. :D
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Postby __Kit » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:08 am UTC

Ha, that is stupid!
=]

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Postby djn » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:51 am UTC

The only possible way to save it would be if the intention was something like this:
"There are no known vulnerabilities in this, so they would have to do massive research to find one we overlooked. And even if they resort to brute force methods, it should take over 20 years to get in."

It's probably just some silly script writer thinking that "brute force" sounds like something that goes fast, though.

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Postby QuantumTroll » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:08 pm UTC

Michael Bay movie -> Brain Turn Off

Come on, they turned the signal that hacked the mainframe is 7 seconds (or whatever) into a sound? Why would you do that?

And why would the exact same sound/signal hack the airplane and the army base?

Why wasn't the NSA doing the signal processing since their mathematics and cryptography knowledge is many years ahead of the rest of the world?

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Postby Vaniver » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:24 pm UTC

djn has it correct; it doesn't really require saving.
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Postby Minirogue » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:52 pm UTC

QuantumTroll wrote:Michael Bay movie -> Brain Turn Off

I know, I didn't think of this until I had a random thought about it while trying to sleep. So it couldn't really be helped. I'm sorry for thinking.

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Postby tendays » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:16 pm UTC

Well, I haven't watched that movie, but such a line makes perfect sense to me, like djn said :

If there are no known vulnerabilities in a system, then you have two solutions:

1) look for vulnerabilities,
2) brute force a password or a key.

If the system is well designed and tested and written, 1 is either impossible or very very hard, making 2 more efficient than 1.

So the sentence reads as: "you can't get in, except by brute forcing the password/key, but *even then*, it would take twenty years..."

Yes I know, I'm probably overthinking it, more than the person who originally wrote that line ...

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Postby Minirogue » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:46 pm UTC

tendays wrote:Yes I know, I'm probably overthinking it, more than the person who originally wrote that line ...

Overthinking things is where we get our enlightening debate over trivial topics, such as why Mr Pibb never got is PhD like Dr Pepper, or why neither of them uses the traditional period after Mr or Dr

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Postby necroforest » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:01 am UTC

Minirogue wrote:
tendays wrote:Yes I know, I'm probably overthinking it, more than the person who originally wrote that line ...

Overthinking things is where we get our enlightening debate over trivial topics, such as why Mr Pibb never got is PhD like Dr Pepper, or why neither of them uses the traditional period after Mr or Dr



Mitch Hedburg? or was this an actual topic?
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Postby Minirogue » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:40 am UTC

necroforest wrote:
Minirogue wrote:
tendays wrote:Yes I know, I'm probably overthinking it, more than the person who originally wrote that line ...

Overthinking things is where we get our enlightening debate over trivial topics, such as why Mr Pibb never got is PhD like Dr Pepper, or why neither of them uses the traditional period after Mr or Dr



Mitch Hedburg? or was this an actual topic?

No, none of this is actually part of mine own insanity. I combined Mitch Hedburg with an 8-bit theater comic

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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:21 am UTC

I think the whole point is to make it funnier for people who are geeks.

Like, people who would watch a transformers movie.
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Postby recurve boy » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:19 am UTC

LE4dGOLEM wrote:I think the whole point is to make it funnier for people who are geeks.

Like, people who would watch a transformers movie.


I don't know. The entire token australian chick hacker character was a complete waste of time.

They could have given us more transforming and fighting.

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Postby _codeMonkey » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:12 pm UTC

I saw the movie, and I thought it was a strange line when I heard it too. I thought it was just a trivial remark. I remember thinking to myself something along the lines of, "that was stupid (but correct at least), it would take some amount of time on the order of magnitude of many years to crack WEP too using brute force also." We all know how that worked out though.

As mentioned previously, I had a bigger problem with the fact that they were converting all these pieces of data into sound. I take it back, the GM and ebay spots pissed me off the most.

When it all comes down to it, it is just a movie though, and a very very stupid one at that. It was probably the worst script out of any movie I think I have ever seen.

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Postby Peshmerga » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:15 pm UTC

It wasn't exactly targeted toward us 1% who know anything about encryption.
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Postby Minirogue » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:40 pm UTC

_codeMonkey wrote:When it all comes down to it, it is just a movie though, and a very very stupid one at that. It was probably the worst script out of any movie I think I have ever seen.

*sigh* people have too high standards for this movie...GIANT ROBOTS THAT TURN INTO CARS AND TANKS AND SH!7...that is all the script I need

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Postby Jach » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:27 am UTC

Minirogue wrote:
_codeMonkey wrote:When it all comes down to it, it is just a movie though, and a very very stupid one at that. It was probably the worst script out of any movie I think I have ever seen.

*sigh* people have too high standards for this movie...GIANT ROBOTS THAT TURN INTO CARS AND TANKS AND SH!7...that is all the script I need


Agreed.

I believe she did say super computer, and how many calculations per second is BlueGene up to now? Anyway, yay for Transforming and fighting and cubes, which make up for the silly script and awkward teenage moments.
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Postby markfiend » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:21 pm UTC

Minirogue wrote:...why neither of them uses the traditional period after Mr or Dr
In UK English it's acceptable to drop the full stop after Mr or Dr (or Mrs or Ms)

*Ahem* Sorry for the derail.

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Postby Agentlien » Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:44 pm UTC

Personally, I my opinion on this kind of lines vary a lot from time to time. It depends on what mood I'm in. Mostly I just get slightly annoyed at that they got things wrong, sometimes I find the mistake funny and in rare cases I just don't care because "Hey, it's just a movie."

Still, with such tremendous misunderstandings taking place at times, or movies which seem so very well-made in the technology aspect being soiled by silly mistakes in trivial lines... It's a bit sad. Like the Swedish movie "Brandvägg" (Firewall), which had one thing that really made me raise an eyebrow. Other than the fact that every single bank in the world is supposed to lack any sorts of backups (hahaha), of course. They find a computer frantically doing some sort of "weird stuff" over an obscure network which they know is tied to something fishy due to the circumstances under which they found this node (in a hidden office rented by a programmer who was just murdered and seems to have ties to the mafia.) Unfortunately they can't risk unplugging it, since they are afraid of the network it is communicating with noticing its sudden absence. And without moving it to the police station, the female super hacker tells the main character, they have no way of figuring out what data it is transmitting. They have physical access to the computer and everything, what's the issue?

But that movie also has some really nice parts when it comes to technology. Like when the Säpo (the Swedish Security Service, our sort of FBI) agent lectures the policemen because the station's firewall has been down for a year and someone using a wifi connection has been performing a Man in the Middle attack against their official mail all that time.
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Postby mellow_geek » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:46 pm UTC

I feel this should be referenced: Top Ten Worst Portrayals of Technology in Film

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Postby Dakman » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:37 pm UTC

Does it make anybody else mad when they see some sort of fancy non-existent GUI in a movie? Especially when it's just loaded with eye candy that doesn't have a function other than to look `cool.`

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Postby Pesto » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:51 pm UTC

No. Generally the kind of movies that involve those kind of scenes are the kind of movies I want to be visually stimulating, not realistic.

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Postby mellow_geek » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:00 pm UTC

Dakman wrote:Does it make anybody else mad when they see some sort of fancy non-existent GUI in a movie? Especially when it's just loaded with eye candy that doesn't have a function other than to look `cool.`


That reminds me of Hackers. If only browsing through my home directory was that awesome.

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Postby forkazoo » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:46 am UTC

QuantumTroll wrote:Michael Bay movie -> Brain Turn Off



That randomly sparked a dormant meme in my mind...

In A.D. 2007, film was beginning.
What happen?
Somebody set up us the logic bomb.
We get signal. (A signal from giant hacker brute forcing robots)
What!
Main brain turn off.
It's Michael Bay!!

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Postby Iv » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:56 pm UTC

Strangely, what shocks me the most in that line is that 20 years of computation to brute force an encryption means that this encryption is pretty weak, whatever computer was used to make this estimation. A time insignificant in respect of the age of the Universe means that there is probably some way to make specific hardware to brute force it in a few seconds.

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Postby trihedron » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:05 pm UTC

mellow_geek wrote:I feel this should be referenced: Top Ten Worst Portrayals of Technology in Film


Well, tape my ankles together and fish me a kwyjibo, whoever wrote that list is an idiot.
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Postby iggdawg » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:05 pm UTC

djn wrote:The only possible way to save it would be if the intention was something like this:
"There are no known vulnerabilities in this, so they would have to do massive research to find one we overlooked. And even if they resort to brute force methods, it should take over 20 years to get in."


This is how I took it. "So secure they'd have to brute-force it". The thing is that anyone interested in security, and maybe even the federal government, protects against remote attempts of that nature. For example, I wrote a rule for my firewall that blacklists someone after 2 connection attempts within 30 seconds (each connection gets 3 login attempts). no human will exhaust that, but a script trying to brute-force guess usernames and passwords sure would. Since state tracking rules like this are simple and common, most "brute-force" attacks require possession of the password hash file, or I suppose enough encrypted data to work with.

Found this on stumbleupon, mirrored it on my own domain for reference. Credit to the original on the page. For your reading pleasure: http://www.iggdawg.com/passwords.html .

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Postby zenten » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:29 pm UTC

iggdawg wrote:Found this on stumbleupon, mirrored it on my own domain for reference. Credit to the original on the page. For your reading pleasure: http://www.iggdawg.com/passwords.html .


Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to make B33r&Mug my password from now on.

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Postby davean » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:50 pm UTC

iggdawg wrote:For example, I wrote a rule for my firewall that blacklists someone after 2 connection attempts within 30 seconds (each connection gets 3 login attempts). no human will exhaust that, but a script trying to brute-force guess usernames and passwords sure would.


Heh, there are rules like that on the shell server's I'm on; they get excused legitimately frequently. It is not uncommon for someone to drop by once a week and go "I'm locked out of ssh, could you reset the block?" That is WELL within the range of what people will do.

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Postby Benitosimies » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:15 am UTC

Maybe she meant 'brute force' another way. Like physically punching their DMZ like when you destroy a car in Street Fighter.

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby A'Tuin » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:17 pm UTC

i flinch at that line very time i hear it............and i work in a cinima so iv heard it WAY to many times :shock:

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby Rummy » Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:12 pm UTC

Do not open your ears when watching technical scenes in any film. This goes for car or computer talk.

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby solacelost » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:41 pm UTC

I still think that line's better than any computer reference in Law and Order. My GOD talk about butchery...

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby Archangel » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:22 am UTC

Come on, the movie was about giant robots transforming into cars; there never was any scientific accuracy, although I wish Hollywood would stop trying.
I agree with recurve boy, that her entire subplot was a total waste of time and could have been happily cut from the movie - it came across to me like a bad attempt at adding a "strong female character".

Also, did it piss anyone else off that she mispronounced "Fourier"?

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby Workaphobia » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:19 am UTC

solacelost wrote:I still think that line's better than any computer reference in Law and Order. My GOD talk about butchery...

LOL-LIPOPS PEDOPHILES ON TEH INTARWEBZ ARE LIKE GODZ AND RAPE CHILDRENZ THRU TEH SCREEN


One time they alluded to the use of steganography in one of the spinoff shows, and the non-technical cop later said "So that stegosaurus thing...". Kinda ruins any chance I have of identifying with him as a character. Or how about the time in Special Victims Unit when they said "Every programmer has a unique signature.", then use that as a plot point to discover that one guy animated two characters in two different games in the same way, somehow leading to a break in the case.

But I guess we should just be happy that these concepts are mentioned at all in popular culture. Like Numbers implicitly describing the P vs NP problem, even if they did make a ridiculous plot involving cracking RSA as the easiest way to break into a server.
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Re:

Postby nyeguy » Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:46 pm UTC

trihedron wrote:
mellow_geek wrote:I feel this should be referenced: Top Ten Worst Portrayals of Technology in Film


Well, tape my ankles together and fish me a kwyjibo, whoever wrote that list is an idiot.

Definitely. First of all, putting Jurassic Park in Number 2 simply because a teenage female knows Unix? What the hell. Also, in Firewall, the iPod wasn't interfacing with the server. He was manually controlling the computer, and the iPod was just a hard-drive. I don't remember any more than that, but that already trashes what he wrote.
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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby GMontag » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:22 pm UTC

Archangel wrote:Also, did it piss anyone else off that she mispronounced "Fourier"?


Um, she didn't. Fourier is French. The trailing r is silent.

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby Notch » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:33 pm UTC

Minirogue wrote:when the hot analyst chick is telling that one dude how it is impossible for any person to have hacked their system that fast, she says "even using brute force methods, it would take 20 years"


I laughed out loud (I wish there was an acronym for that..) when I heard it. Nobody else did.

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Re: Transformers Line incorrect?

Postby AlexCrafter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:43 pm UTC

The truth is even if brute force is more efficient you canot estimate how long it will take, especialy if you dont know the length of the password, theoreticly the maximum time is infinit and the minimum time is however long it takes to try one password. So she couldnt have estimated a time frame about how long it took and even if she could the peoplebreaking in could have beed (Extreamly) lucky and gotten through on their first few attempts.


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