Help on Evolution essay

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jewish_scientist
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Help on Evolution essay

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:48 pm UTC

Basically, I am writing an essay where two characters are arguing. One for the theory of evolution and one against. But I am stuck and need a little help.

The anti-evolutionist says: "Scientists gather data from soil, fossils, genomes etc. They then use this data and the theory of evolution to extrapolate conditions on the Earth thousands, or millions, of years ago. This is not science. Science is based on experimentation and observation. At its foundation, scientists set initial conditions and the record the results. Scientific theories are then made to explain the correlation between the initial conditions and the results. Paleontologists look at the world and then use theories to 'discover' the initial conditions. This is the same way that cosmologists work. However, cosmology has been classified as 'metaphysics' but the theory of evolution has been classified as 'science'. I conclude that the theory of evolution is a metaphysical theory, not a scientific theory. This means that it can be compared to creationism, which is a metaphysical theory."

How would the pro-Evolutionist respond?

Thank you for any help in advance.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:30 pm UTC

The creationist is wrong that science is about setting up initial conditions and seeing how they correlate to final conditions. That is related to science, but it sort of misses the interesting part.

At its heart, science is an method for testing the veracity of claims using empirical tools and evidence. Scientists don't need to generate initial conditions; they need to generate hypotheses. The hypotheses could include the initial conditions of a dynamic system. If you want to know the answer to the question "could statement X be true?", and go about trying to figure that out in an empirical manner, you're doing science. I don't see why it is science to say "I'm going to shoot this cannon at a given angle and velocity and figure out where it lands" and not science to say "hey, there's a cannon ball flying through the air, I'm going to figure out where it came from". Interpolation into the past is just as valid as extrapolation into the future.

Of course, in the particular case of evolution, we have also done experiments where initial conditions are set up and evolution is tested in the type of laboratory experiment the anti-evolutionist is talking about.

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ahammel
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby ahammel » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:40 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:However, cosmology has been classified as 'metaphysics' but the theory of evolution has been classified as 'science'. I conclude that the theory of evolution is a metaphysical theory, not a scientific theory. This means that it can be compared to creationism, which is a metaphysical theory.
If cosomology and evolution are metaphysics because they are historical, then so are geology and linguistics and epidemiology and archaeology and history. It's going to get awfully crowded in the philosophy department.
He/Him/His/Alex
God damn these electric sex pants!

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addams
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby addams » Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:19 pm UTC

Hi;
I popped in because I finely figured out one of the things that bothers me about Young Earth Creation.

No! It is Not to be taken seriously.
When speaking to a Young Earther I might say,
"Your theory of a Six thousand Year Old Earth is refuted by The Ten Thousand Year Old Egg."

"Who says?"
"The Chinese. They are smart."

"Who am I going to believe?
You? Or; The Chinese?"

Creation vs Evolution.
Is it good for you to understand the philosophical differences?

I am so sorry you must be bothered.
When I came from we were expected to know it, not question it.

I suppose I had heard of people that resist Science.
I understood them the way I understand Snake Charmers.

I learned evolution the way a person learns any other subject.
One weird concept at a time.

Finely one day it seemed to be a unified whole.
After years of University Education I could still fuck up the details.

The Creationists never fuck up the details.
Does that make me look stupid?

Do you start with Mendle's Peas?
Or; With Mendle?

What kind of a mind would grow Peas to piss off the Masses?

Laser Guy?
Loads of us know a ton about Science.

When the La-La VooDoo's attack us, What can we say that is True?

What do Scientist do?
Scientists describe shit.

Sometimes it really is Shit.
We go to school. We study.
We work. We even have fun doing it.
We editorialize. We guess.

When all is said and done; We describe.
The rest is, just, Rigor to hold it all together for delivery to Humanity.

Or; Some other ding-dong that finds the 'proton gradient in earth worm eyeballs', fascinating.

Hey! Young Earther!
Does this Egg look Ten Thousand Years Old, to you?
Yeah. Me, too.

It Looks older than the GrandCanyon, to me.
Think about it Earther.

If this Egg is Ten Thousand Years Old;
How can the Planet be Six Thousand Years Old?

Eat it??
No!!

It's Evidence.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:36 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Scientists gather data from soil, fossils, genomes etc. They then use this data and the theory of evolution to extrapolate conditions on the Earth thousands, or millions, of years ago. This is not science. Science is based on experimentation and observation.
Perhaps you could explain the difference between the two above bolded?

Basically, your notion that science requires experiments is false. Science requires a testable hypothesis. This is possible whether or not you are in control of the experimental design; unless as Alex pointed out, you hold that meteorology isn't a science?
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby addams » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:09 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
jewish_scientist wrote:Scientists gather data from soil, fossils, genomes etc. They then use this data and the theory of evolution to extrapolate conditions on the Earth thousands, or millions, of years ago. This is not science. Science is based on experimentation and observation.
Perhaps you could explain the difference between the two above bolded?

Basically, your notion that science requires experiments is false. Science requires a testable hypothesis. This is possible whether or not you are in control of the experimental design; unless as Alex pointed out, you hold that meteorology isn't a science?

Yes. What fun.
Where does Science happen?

EveryWhere! All the Time!
It's So Great!


“The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds the most discoveries,
is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but 'That's funny...”
― Isaac Asimov


Issac Asimov died.
Before he did that he used a wicked sense of humor.

“Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.”
― Isaac Asimov


Science is a bit dull.
It is full of Jokes for people that speak the language.

Loads of people have problems with the Creationists.
I am beginning to see their point.

Creationists take themselves too seriously.
Their God does not laugh. Ours does.
(at its self as often as not)
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:43 am UTC

While I appreciate that you're probably being glib addams, I just want to say that my problem with Creationists is that they undermine the scientific method by asserting a conclusion that doesn't follow from the data, and then have the gall of foisting said conclusion into Congress, and effectively defunding my line of work, while simultaneously chiding us that we haven't cured them of their cancer or Alzheimer's.

That somehow only some fields are really privy to this; Creationists aren't up in math classes demanding Calc 1 teach the controversy of alternative theories of how to calculate the area under a curve. Or up in chemists or physicists facing telling them they don't understand how matter really works. That really gets to me; A lot of sciences contest a literal interpretation of the bible, yet for some reason, they're principally focused on evolution. Why is that?

Science doesn't care what God you believe in, or if you conclude from your experiences that God actively shapes things or set it all in motion or doesn't even exist! Science just cares you run the proper controls on that protein binding assay and when asked, can talk about what these results mean in the scheme of this proteins interaction. Science isn't asking you about God, it's just asking you whether the goddamn protein has a coiled coiled domain or a PX domain, stop, just stop talking about your God in the context of this protein. That bacteria. This ecosystem.

Imagine if a tourist came up to you and was like "Hey, excuse me, could you tell me how to get to Moody street from here?" and you answered "Yeah, sure, Abe Lincolns wife was named Mary Todd Lincoln! Also, like, two blocks in some direction." They'd probably be mighty confused, and a little annoyed. They'd be really annoyed if you then petitioned the city to become a tour guide.

Seriously, OP, I want to make this clear; believe whatever you want, anything, seriously, I don't give a fuck and neither does science. Just keep your beliefs out of the data. Doyle had it right; It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. Science isn't collecting data on the existence of God. Creationism and Intelligent Design are the worst thing we can teach our students, because it instills in them the fastest path to trying to fit one's data to an untestable hypothesis.

EDIT: Sorry, I was a little drunk when I posted that and it's rantier than usual even for me. I hope at the very least, this provides something to be aware of with respect to what a scientist might say, or what argumentative points a Creationist should be prepared to address.
Last edited by Izawwlgood on Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:19 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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addams
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby addams » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:12 pm UTC

From the first post:
Basically, I am writing an essay where two characters are arguing. One for the theory of evolution and one against. But I am stuck and need a little help.


What about making one of the Characters a peer of Confucius?
Regal, intelligent, wise and knowledgeable.

Make the other Character that guy Bill Nye hangs out with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI

Allow each to use all the modern tools you have available to you.

That is only fair.
You are writing the paper.
Both characters are products of your mind.

I have described one character with four words.
How will you describe the other character, with four words?

Please, keep the character acting and speaking inside the bounds of its character.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby addams » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:45 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:While I appreciate that you're probably being glib addams, I just want to say that my problem with Creationists is that they undermine the scientific method by asserting a conclusion that doesn't follow from the data, and then have the gall of foisting said conclusion into Congress, and effectively defunding my line of work, while simultaneously chiding us that we haven't cured them of their cancer or Alzheimer's.

That somehow only some fields are really privy to this; Creationists aren't up in math classes demanding Calc 1 teach the controversy of alternative theories of how to calculate the area under a curve. Or up in chemists or physicists facing telling them they don't understand how matter really works. That really gets to me; A lot of sciences contest a literal interpretation of the bible, yet for some reason, they're principally focused on evolution. Why is that?

Science doesn't care what God you believe in, or if you conclude from your experiences that God actively shapes things or set it all in motion or doesn't even exist! Science just cares you run the proper controls on that protein binding assay and when asked, can talk about what these results mean in the scheme of this proteins interaction. Science isn't asking you about God, it's just asking you whether the goddamn protein has a coiled coiled domain or a PX domain, stop, just stop talking about your God in the context of this protein. That bacteria. This ecosystem.

Imagine if a tourist came up to you and was like "Hey, excuse me, could you tell me how to get to Moody street from here?" and you answered "Yeah, sure, Abe Lincolns wife was named Mary Todd Lincoln! Also, like, two blocks in some direction." They'd probably be mighty confused, and a little annoyed. They'd be really annoyed if you then petitioned the city to become a tour guide.

Seriously, OP, I want to make this clear; believe whatever you want, anything, seriously, I don't give a fuck and neither does science. Just keep your beliefs out of the data. Doyle had it right; It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. Science isn't collecting data on the existence of God. Creationism and Intelligent Design are the worst thing we can teach our students, because it instills in them the fastest path to trying to fit one's data to an untestable hypothesis.

EDIT: Sorry, I was a little drunk when I posted that and it's rantier than usual even for me. I hope at the very least, this provides something to be aware of with respect to what a scientist might say, or what argumentative points a Creationist should be prepared to address.

I like your rant.
Tons of stuff to discuss in there.

This part.
Science doesn't care what God you believe in, or if you conclude from your experiences that God actively shapes things or set it all in motion or doesn't even exist! Science just cares you run the proper controls on that protein binding assay and when asked, can talk about what these results mean in the scheme of this proteins interaction. Science isn't asking you about God, it's just asking you whether the goddamn protein has a coiled coiled domain or a PX domain, stop, just stop talking about your God in the context of this protein. That bacteria. This ecosystem.

You are correct.
Neither Science not God care what you think as much as what you do.

You better be thinking correctly.
God may forgive you, Science won't.

God promises loads of stuff and delivers....
let's say, "Nothing" for the sake of this conversation.

I have been thinking about the intellectual constraints placed on Creationists.
What is the difference between knowing some of the weird stuff we know and working without that fundamental knowledge?

Knowing is easier. A lot easier.
We understand some basic shit about how Nature or God's Creation works.
When faced with some new data, we can sort it out in short order.

The poor idiot that was not allowed to know.
Poor baby.

He or she must brute force Tons of seemingly unrelated facts into Memory.
For you and I. You more than I.
One piece of data often opens the flood gates of related data, systems, relationships, and awe.

The Creationist is not able to experience that.
It's against their Religion. How sad.

You are correct in your assessment. I would say:
"I don't care how little you want to know, understand, do, and be.
Please, do not limit our best and brightest because you are dull."


Of course, it pisses you off if others are doing shit Science and praying instead.
Fuck Them.

Please don't be too hard on others.
I have been known to greet a dish of goo with the words,
"I lost sleep praying for you."

I like Religion.
I try to be Respectful.
It's really hard sometimes.

Do you know about Easter?
That is some funny stuff.

I have no problem keeping a straight face.
A little.

I have a little problem keeping a straight face.

I think, they think I am a pleasant person,
smiling or nearly so, most of the Time.

Spoiler:
Easter cracks me up.
The Catholics are not made sober by that little wafer.
It takes a couple of deviled eggs and a ham sandwich to sober a person up.

Sober 'em up to drink some more.
Sober em up none the less.

How silly is it to stand in a garden eating a ham sandwich to honor a Guy that by conviction would not eat ham?


And; This part.
believe whatever you want, anything, seriously, I don't give a fuck and neither does science. Just keep your beliefs out of the data. Doyle had it right; It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. Science isn't collecting data on the existence of God. Creationism and Intelligent Design are the worst thing we can teach our students, because it instills in them the fastest path to trying to fit one's data to an untestable hypothesis.


Just keep your beliefs out of the data. Doyle had it right; It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
Giant! Huge!
Really Hard, sometimes.

It is a discipline.
It is something each and every one of us need the others for.

Look at my paper.
Check these numbers.

I think I see something.
I wrote it down.

Here. Look at this.

Have you ever done it?
Did you know what you were doing?

I did it both ways.
One: I knew what I was doing.
I fixed my numbers, because (fuck) I had other things to do.
I was running it to prove I could. I fucked it up. (shrug)

Two:I did not know what I was doing.
I noticed what was happening to my numbers.
I am not proud. I did what I could to fix it and I learned how not to do it, anymore.

I want to be Normal.
Everyone does.

I was looking at the data from years past before I collected.
Then I disregarded numbers that were not Normal.

I Stopped!
Thank God, I caught it,
before anyone else did.

Be nice.
If that happens, give the poor idiot some slack.
It is human of us.
Spoiler:
He asked if I knew why we do what we do.
I said, "No."

He said, "For the people."
I thought he was Wrong.

I did not have an answer.
I, just, thought his was Wrong.

Now; I think I know the answer.

We do not do it For The People.
We do it for each other.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:11 am UTC

I don't want to hijack the thread, but @addams;
Spoiler:
addams wrote:It is a discipline.
It is something each and every one of us need the others for.

Look at my paper.
Check these numbers.

I think I see something.
I wrote it down.

Here. Look at this.

Have you ever done it?
Did you know what you were doing?
Yes, of course. Science is conducted by people, naturally, and people aren't perfect logic machines. And, that said, science of course also moves forward by the occasional wild conjecture of scientists being followed up upon. I think that's part of the excitement actually, not going Eureka! but going 'that doesn't seem right...' and then based on the a bunch of other data coming up with models. Most of them will be wrong! Maybe all of them! Piling questions up and coming up with best guess hazards for what's going on is totally how science works. The thing is not making any concrete claims, not claiming you know the answer, when you don't.

Science isn't making claims about God. Science isn't telling Creationists God doesn't exist. Science is just telling everyone what it has discovered, and Creationists have turned around and drawn unsubstantiated conclusions from those discoveries. Which is in and of itself fine, if highly unscientific, but fine outside the context of science. It's not fine from within the context of science, as who knows what other errant conclusions they've gone to. My data looks like something weird might be going on with this system in ALS, so, you know, obviously hippo souls sing paeans from afar to influence the neuroanatomy of my flies.

And it's super extra not fine when they tell science what we should think.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby addams » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:38 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't want to hijack the thread, but @addams;
Spoiler:
addams wrote:It is a discipline.
It is something each and every one of us need the others for.

Look at my paper.
Check these numbers.

I think I see something.
I wrote it down.

Here. Look at this.

Have you ever done it?
Did you know what you were doing?
Yes, of course. Science is conducted by people, naturally, and people aren't perfect logic machines. And, that said, science of course also moves forward by the occasional wild conjecture of scientists being investigated. I think that's part of the excitement actually, not going Eureka! but going 'that doesn't seem right...' and then based on the a bunch of other data coming up with models. Most of them will be wrong! Maybe all of them! Piling questions up and coming up with best guess hazards for what's going on is totally how science works. The thing is not making any concrete claims, not claiming you know the answer, when you don't.

Science isn't making claims about God. Science isn't telling Creationists God doesn't exist. Science is just telling everyone what it has discovered, and Creationists have turned around and drawn unsubstantiated conclusions from those discoveries. Which is in and of itself fine, if highly unscientific, but fine outside the context of science. It's not fine from within the context of science, as who knows what other errant conclusions they've gone to. My data looks like something weird might be going on with this system in ALS, so, you know, obviously hippo souls sing paeans from afar to influence the neuroanatomy of my flies.

And it's super extra not fine when they tell science what we should think.

We can chatter away in Spoilers.
The OP has tottered off to write a paper.

@Izawwlgood;
Spoiler:
Amen, Brother.
Amen.

I do not dictate, prescribe or describe their God.
Why, the fuck, do they keep doing that to me?

I am willing to discuss how much our Gods have in common.
They want to tell me I have no God.

Not all of the Faithful are like that, Izawwlgood.
It's true. Please don't be angry at all of them.

oh. I thought of the four words.
Confident, Shallow, Ridged, and Well-Funded.

Those four words describe that Aussie that Bill Nye was hanging out with.
What do you think? Do those words fit?

That Well-Funded part is a Bitch.
It is possible for the National BroadCast System to be used to Enlighten and Connect people.
What it is being used for is to tell us, "Everyone has an opinion. Everyone's ideas are valid."

The Media Removed the Spines of the decent American People.
"Well..."They say, "I don't know. The Loudest and Most persistent voice must be Right."

"If it wasn't Right it would not be on TV."
It would be nice to have a Voice the people can trust.

They have that Voice.
They Trust FOX!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:16 am UTC

Imagine a parabola that passes through the origin and opens downwards.

Label the x-axis "Knowledge" and the y-axis "Belief that Religion and Science Contradict".

Label the origin "The Simple". Plot several points that are labeled "Children", "Uneducated", "People Smart Enough To Not Get Involved" etc here.

Label the vertex "The Stereotypes". Plot several points that are labeled "Jerks", "Idiots", "People Who Like To Argue And Yell" etc here.

Label the forth quadrant "The Geniuses". Plot several points labeled "Sir Isaac Newton", "RamBam", "People Who See G-d In Science" etc here.


This is how my brain thinks about the "Religion vs. Science" debate.

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:22 am UTC

Those are not really all that encompassing of the range of things. Also, what's the y-axis then? Frequency? IQ? Influence over politics?

Actually, can you reexplain what you're saying here? Genius has nothing to do with how you relate to wonder. Plenty of geniuses see God in their pursuit, and plenty yet don't.
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Re: Help on Evolution essay

Postby addams » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:45 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Those are not really all that encompassing of the range of things. Also, what's the y-axis then? Frequency? IQ? Influence over politics?

Actually, can you reexplain what you're saying here? Genius has nothing to do with how you relate to wonder. Plenty of geniuses see God in their pursuit, and plenty yet don't.

Yeah.
Those are called Evil Geniuses.

How is Black Hat Guy doing?
Have you ever known anyone like that?

They often out grow it.
Never without wanting to.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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