Hard work vs. Smartishness

The school experience. School related queries, discussions, and stories that aren't specific to a subject.

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hyacinth
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby hyacinth » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:16 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:
hyacinth wrote:I guess my point is -- if you like it, you probably won't suck at it because you'll be learning it for y'all's own reasons, and you won't have to worry about it being genuinely hard work until a time comes when y'all're already so dedicated to it that y'all're willing to do the unpleasant stuff. Whether or not you can make yourself like it is another question.
Are you aware that you seem to be making a very broad generalization on the basis of y'all's limited and unusual experience?


Yes. It was just a thought.

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Euler
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby Euler » Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:47 am UTC

AverellTorrent wrote: Some classes are like that, certainly. In my experience, however, it depends a lot on the students we're talking about. Some students really just don't like to think. To put it frankly, they're not as intellectually gifted as some students. Most classes in schools have to cater to the average student, and the average student isn't willing or isn't capable to put forth the effort to genuinely think and learn. As such,the schools simply have to work with what they're given, and just settle to get these students to memorize information and hope they retain it.

However, particularly at larger schools, there's often a significant portion of students who are intelligent, who do want to learn. The school, ideally, offers courses for them that are rigorous and thought-provoking, and generally satisfying to take. At my school, the most difficult classes (our AP and college-accredited courses) are mostly filled with students like this, and class is genuinely interesting. It becomes far less about the grade and more about the experience of learning.
That's another thing I hate about the system. Catering to the average students and the bad student is all they seem to care about. Meanwhile there are kids with unbelievable potential to do great things that are being ignored. If they would focus on sharpening and refining the education of those kids, they would help said kids realize their potential. They could aspire to great things. But as it is they tell you that you're just like everybody else, that you aren't any more important, and that putting effort towards greatness is futile - you should just spout crap like everybody else because you'll never achieve anything that great in the "real world".

I have an interesting bit of experience, though. Out of all of my years in school, I have had only one teacher that really encouraged me to think. She didn't teach me what to think; she taught me how to. Because of her I learned to find my own voice. She taught me to speak up about what I think, instead of automatically assuming that I'm either wrong or redundant. There is a more curious thing about this teacher and her class though. And that is that her class was not hard at all. I would never call it rigorous or difficult. At times I found it outright easy. It was not easy because I had less work. It was easy because I didn't have to work in an uncomfortably small box anymore. She made me write what I thought. I could do it because she made it very clear, without saying so, that what I really thought was what she wanted to hear. It was natural and real. It was right.[/quote]

I'm both incessantly jealous of you for having a teacher like that, and jealous of you for the beauty of that narration. The ending just sounded right.

PerchloricAcid
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby PerchloricAcid » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:13 am UTC

xzarakizraiia wrote:In high school I had a touch of the 'smart but lazy,' but I've largely reformed myself in college. Grades at college might not mean very much if you're going into the work force, but I'm hoping to go to grad school and I'm very, very happy that I was with it enough from the beginning to maintain a good GPA. Being able to declare a major and focus on that area has made college much more intellectually fulfilling in high school, so fortunately that has lead me to work harder than I used to.

I can totally relate to this. I used to be the drunk-and-high-during-classes girl that tried to skip school as much as possible, but still had pretty nice grades in most things. That's 'cause our criteria in physics class (a singular example among many) was, like, lower than lowest. I am smartish and I'd say I'm intelligent, but that meant nothing for some subject for which I had to work and refused to.
In high school, I bot think and work my ass off, and excel.

Btw, I have the impression that a majority of those hatin' the hard workers are actually bothered by those people that seem to be better than them. It seems to me that some people just lurk and wait until one of those straight-A's hard worker makes a mistake or fails to understand something.
Chances are they are actually smarter than you. Chances are, also, that you make even more mistakes, but don't realize it or attribute it to you lack of work (but, hey, you're a smartass, so you don't have to work!) :roll:

Anyhow, one must combine smartishness and hard work in order to succeed. The first is more likely to get some revolutionary stuff rollin', but the second is necessary to execute it with proficiency. :wink:

Dark567
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby Dark567 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/opini ... ef=opinion

Interesting article pertaining to this.
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GRAY MATTER
Sorry, Strivers: Talent Matters
By DAVID Z. HAMBRICK and ELIZABETH J. MEINZ
Published: November 19, 2011
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HOW do people acquire high levels of skill in science, business, music, the arts and sports? This has long been a topic of intense debate in psychology.
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David Plunkert
Research in recent decades has shown that a big part of the answer is simply practice — and a lot of it. In a pioneering study, the Florida State University psychologist K. Anders Ericsson and his colleagues asked violin students at a music academy to estimate the amount of time they had devoted to practice since they started playing. By age 20, the students whom the faculty nominated as the “best” players had accumulated an average of over 10,000 hours, compared with just under 8,000 hours for the “good” players and not even 5,000 hours for the least skilled.

Those findings have been enthusiastically championed, perhaps because of their meritocratic appeal: what seems to separate the great from the merely good is hard work, not intellectual ability. Summing up Mr. Ericsson’s research in his book “Outliers,” Malcolm Gladwell observes that practice isn’t “the thing you do once you’re good” but “the thing you do that makes you good.” He adds that intellectual ability — the trait that an I.Q. score reflects — turns out not to be that important. “Once someone has reached an I.Q. of somewhere around 120,” he writes, “having additional I.Q. points doesn’t seem to translate into any measureable real-world advantage.”

David Brooks, the New York Times columnist, restates this idea in his book “The Social Animal,” while Geoff Colvin, in his book “Talent Is Overrated,” adds that “I.Q. is a decent predictor of performance on an unfamiliar task, but once a person has been at a job for a few years, I.Q. predicts little or nothing about performance.”

But this isn’t quite the story that science tells. Research has shown that intellectual ability matters for success in many fields — and not just up to a point.

Exhibit A is a landmark study of intellectually precocious youths directed by the Vanderbilt University researchers David Lubinski and Camilla Benbow. They and their colleagues tracked the educational and occupational accomplishments of more than 2,000 people who as part of a youth talent search scored in the top 1 percent on the SAT by the age of 13. (Scores on the SAT correlate so highly with I.Q. that the psychologist Howard Gardner described it as a “thinly disguised” intelligence test.) The remarkable finding of their study is that, compared with the participants who were “only” in the 99.1 percentile for intellectual ability at age 12, those who were in the 99.9 percentile — the profoundly gifted — were between three and five times more likely to go on to earn a doctorate, secure a patent, publish an article in a scientific journal or publish a literary work. A high level of intellectual ability gives you an enormous real-world advantage.

In our own recent research, we have discovered that “working memory capacity,” a core component of intellectual ability, predicts success in a wide variety of complex activities. In one study, we assessed the practice habits of pianists and then gauged their working memory capacity, which is measured by having a person try to remember information (like a list of random digits) while performing another task. We then had the pianists sight read pieces of music without preparation.

Not surprisingly, there was a strong positive correlation between practice habits and sight-reading performance. In fact, the total amount of practice the pianists had accumulated in their piano careers accounted for nearly half of the performance differences across participants. But working memory capacity made a statistically significant contribution as well (about 7 percent, a medium-size effect). In other words, if you took two pianists with the same amount of practice, but different levels of working memory capacity, it’s likely that the one higher in working memory capacity would have performed considerably better on the sight-reading task.

It would be nice if intellectual ability and the capacities that underlie it were important for success only up to a point. In fact, it would be nice if they weren’t important at all, because research shows that those factors are highly stable across an individual’s life span. But wishing doesn’t make it so.

None of this is to deny the power of practice. Nor is it to say that it’s impossible for a person with an average I.Q. to, say, earn a Ph.D. in physics. It’s just unlikely, relatively speaking. Sometimes the story that science tells us isn’t the story we want to hear.
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cjmcjmcjmcjm
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:46 am UTC

It's interesting how intelligence matters more for some things and practice matters more for others
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markop2003
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby markop2003 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:40 pm UTC

That's pretty common, most grades I've come across measure how much you've revised much more than how clever you are especially now that so many classes teach to the test. The only exceptions i've found are programming and Math, sure practice helps but it's no guarantee and if you're smart in those fields you'll be able bypass a lot of the actual lessons.

markop2003
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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby markop2003 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:47 pm UTC

Euler wrote:That's another thing I hate about the system. Catering to the average students and the bad student is all they seem to care about. Meanwhile there are kids with unbelievable potential to do great things that are being ignored. If they would focus on sharpening and refining the education of those kids, they would help said kids realize their potential. They could aspire to great things.

Sadly the rankings are based on the number A* to C grades not highest attainment and the tests top out way too early.

IMO i'ld solve the problem by just removing years, have each subject work as independently as possible and disconnect them from age so a clever 10 year old can be in the same class as a low end 13 year old. Personally I idled a lot in secondary school due to the year structure meaning you could top out on one subject for the year and even though higher material was available you couldn't gain access to it because you weren't old enough.

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Re: Hard work vs. Smartishness

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:50 am UTC

markop2003 wrote:That's pretty common, most grades I've come across measure how much you've revised much more than how clever you are especially now that so many classes teach to the test. The only exceptions i've found are programming and Math, sure practice helps but it's no guarantee and if you're smart in those fields you'll be able bypass a lot of the actual lessons.

I've saved my arse on many history exams by what I found in other questions.
frezik wrote:Anti-photons move at the speed of dark

DemonDeluxe wrote:Paying to have laws written that allow you to do what you want, is a lot cheaper than paying off the judge every time you want to get away with something shady.


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