Standing for the flag + clubs

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poochyena
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Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby poochyena » Fri May 20, 2011 10:08 pm UTC

i'm new to these forums, so srry if i do anything wrong o.x


ok, i know lots of people will probably disagree with me, but i would just like to know what people think.
At school, during the morning announcements, we stand up and say the pledge of allegiance, but for the past year i stopped saying it, but the past 2 weeks, i stopped standing up for it, and this angered everyone in class, and my teacher, my teacher just now noticed today though, and she got very mad and was like "everyone in this classroom stands for the flag!!!!!!!!!".
But i find it silly, what is talking to the flag gonna do? nothing. plain and simple. I just don't understand really, flag represents America, yes, but talking to it every morning in a classroom.. kinda pointless

I'm really just wanting to know if anyone agrees with me wat-so-ever, and what people think..


also, its the end of the school year, so it don't matter much now i guess, but my teacher, ms.springer, says that if you join FBLA club(or w/e it is), then you will get a 100 quiz grade, a free day once a month or so, and last week, people in FBLA got to skip school and go to the park, and 2 days later, they got to skip a period, and go eat pizza. oh, and to join FBLA, it costs 15 dollars.
with this, i'm wondering if that is ok? to me it kinda seems like she is bribing the students to join, expectially with that extra 100 grade..(i'm not 100% sure if she actually adds in that 100 or not, she said she would, but its kinda hard to know if she did or not)

I also dislike how every single club at school i know about has no purpose wat-so-ever really, besides giving u the ability to skip class every once and awhile

discuss!

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen » Sat May 21, 2011 11:43 pm UTC

Are you really not involved in any clubs or extra curricular activities at your school? Sure, a lot clubs are pointless but getting out there and doing something you are interested in and socializing is another part of school. And if you're looking at higher ed, you might wanna consider adding some extra curriculars to your resume. Idk how I feel about a teacher giving bonus points in class for joining her club, but the free food and field trips and all that jazz are part of the reason people join clubs.

As for the flag thing, unless you are extremely offended at the idea of standing you might as well just stand and not say it. However, if you really have a problem with standing during the pledge and are not just being an angsty teen (I am not saying you are btw) then you have a right to voice that opinion and bring it up with your teacher or school administrator if he/she gives you a hard time about it. Just remember that the flag is a very important symbol to the people who have risked or lost their lives so you would have the right to not say the pledge.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Solt » Sun May 22, 2011 6:03 am UTC

poochyena wrote:what is talking to the flag gonna do? nothing. plain and simple. I just don't understand really, flag represents America, yes, but talking to it every morning in a classroom.. kinda pointless


You don't seem to have thought through this very much. If your objection was that people, especially minors, shouldn't be required to say the pledge before they know what they are saying, that would be a legitimate argument. But the purpose? It's pretty damn self explanatory. The purpose is stated in the first line: "I pledge allegiance".

What is that going to do? Nothing. Just like putting your hand on the bible in court and swearing not to lie won't do anything. Just like the president putting his hand in the air and swearing to protect the constitution won't do anything. Just like explaining to a cop that you shouldn't have your hand cut off for stealing some fruit won't do anything. Just like asking the military not to shoot you for making a peaceful protest won't do anything. Just like demanding that you have a voice in your own government won't do anything.

And the flag doesn't just represent America. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands..." In case you weren't paying attention in English, (which it looks like you definitely weren't), that is called parallelism. You are pledging allegiance to two things: 1) the flag, 2) the United States of America. You are taking an oath of loyalty to the country in which you live. I'm not saying you have to, but if you don't want to maybe you shouldn't be taking the free education your country is providing you with. Also the protection from starvation, disease, and random violence. In fact, if you wanted to leave there are a few hundred million people who would sincerely take that oath and take your place in a heartbeat.

If you don't say the pledge does that really mean you are a traitor? No, but if you can't spend 30 seconds 5 days a week reflecting on what your country stands for, that is sad.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Angua » Sun May 22, 2011 10:44 am UTC

@ solt - don't you think that's a bit melodramatic? I can't think of many other countries (at least Western ones) that require you to pledge allegiance every single day of school? I personally think that it's a bit much, does it have to be every day? How many adults carry on doing it when they don't have to? Sure, it's good to be respectful about your country, but 5 days a week seems to be overdoing it a bit much - and how many people who actually do stay actually reflect on the words that they are saying, or the concept behind it, and not just repeating it mindlessly as happens with everything you do all the time.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Mokele » Sun May 22, 2011 1:41 pm UTC

When I was in HS, I hated all that crap too, yet just two years later I had no reservations about taking the oath to become a US citizen. Why? It's all about frequency.

US high schools are nothing short of propaganda mills when it comes to US nationalism - You do the pledge every single day, the national anthem for every sports event, and one or both at assemblies and pep rallies. The second HS I went to even paired it with blaring obnoxious dreck like "Proud to be an American" over the speakers. Every. Fucking. Day. Combined with history class, which, outside of AP history, ranges from simply omitting concepts or events that make the US look bad to outright revisionism, you're trapped in this warped world where the US can do no wrong, dissent is treated as heresy, and you're compelled to pledge without even truly understanding (the pledge starts in elementary school or Kindergarten).

In that environment, it's easy to see why the OP is fed up with it. And bear in mind, the recollections above are pre-9/11 - I don't even want to think about how bad it is now.
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Re: Standing for the flag

Postby fcas » Sun May 22, 2011 5:31 pm UTC

I recently subbed (substitute taught) at a high school. I stood for the Pledge of Allegiance. No student did.

I am proud to be an American. This country is not perfect, but I can't think of another country whose morals, standard of living, and opportunities are superior to ours.

If you choose not to stand for the Pledge, that's OK with me. If you find yourself in another country where their national pledge is said, I wonder how others would react to you not standing?

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen » Sun May 22, 2011 5:53 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:When I was in HS, I hated all that crap too, yet just two years later I had no reservations about taking the oath to become a US citizen. Why? It's all about frequency.

US high schools are nothing short of propaganda mills when it comes to US nationalism - You do the pledge every single day, the national anthem for every sports event, and one or both at assemblies and pep rallies. The second HS I went to even paired it with blaring obnoxious dreck like "Proud to be an American" over the speakers. Every. Fucking. Day. Combined with history class, which, outside of AP history, ranges from simply omitting concepts or events that make the US look bad to outright revisionism, you're trapped in this warped world where the US can do no wrong, dissent is treated as heresy, and you're compelled to pledge without even truly understanding (the pledge starts in elementary school or Kindergarten).

In that environment, it's easy to see why the OP is fed up with it. And bear in mind, the recollections above are pre-9/11 - I don't even want to think about how bad it is now.


If OP actually thinks that way, then he has a legitimate point and should not be discriminated against for his behavior. However, most high school students (I'm assuming he is in HS, correct me if wrong) often are not against something based on ideals but based on lazyness. The vibe I get is that OP just doesn't feel like getting up, not that he is fed up with the US nationalist propaganda. But, I could be wrong, and he could be deeply offended by being forced to say the pledge. Either way, he has the right to refrain from doing the pledge and should not be singled out for his opinion.

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Re: Standing for the flag

Postby Angua » Sun May 22, 2011 5:58 pm UTC

fcas wrote:I recently subbed (substitute taught) at a high school. I stood for the Pledge of Allegiance. No student did.

I am proud to be an American. This country is not perfect, but I can't think of another country whose morals, standard of living, and opportunities are superior to ours.

If you choose not to stand for the Pledge, that's OK with me. If you find yourself in another country where their national pledge is said, I wonder how others would react to you not standing?
Western countries that don't have the death penalty and extreme anti-abortionism?

Also, I'm trying to think of a country with a national pledge that isn't the US and is a Western, developed country and without a nationalist regime?
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby benoitowns » Sun May 22, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

Solt wrote: You are pledging allegiance to two things

Exactly. If you don't want to pledge allegiance to both, then you shouldn't say it. Not following along with everyone in saying the pledge does not mean you necessarily don't support both. It also is not that big of a deal. I don't support it, so I just don't get up with people. But remember, this is a government institution anyway, and this is America, so expect and tolerate others doing so. If someone is that bothered by you not going along, explain to them why you don't want to pledge yourself to it. Also, be respectful to the people who do choose it, no need to be rude.
Solt wrote: maybe you shouldn't be taking the free education your country is providing you with. Also the protection from starvation, disease, and random violence.

Free? My parents pay soooo much money in tax. Even when I didn't go to the "free" education they provide they had to pay lots and lots of money in taxes.
Solt wrote: if you can't spend 30 seconds 5 days a week reflecting on what your country stands for, that is sad.

The objection is not towards difficulty or to the amount of time it takes, that just misses the point.
fcas wrote:I am proud to be an American.

Good for you, I (and hopefully OP as well) have no problem with that.
fcas wrote:If you choose not to stand for the Pledge, that's OK with me.

And that is the right attitude.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Bakemaster » Sun May 22, 2011 6:39 pm UTC

benoitowns wrote:
Solt wrote: maybe you shouldn't be taking the free education your country is providing you with. Also the protection from starvation, disease, and random violence.

Free? My parents pay soooo much money in tax. Even when I didn't go to the "free" education they provide they had to pay lots and lots of money in taxes.

And if they hadn't paid "soooo much money in tax" you would still be able to take advantage of your free public education. Yes, it is a free education and no, "free" does not imply there is no expense involved. If someone gave you a free hot dog one day, would you bitch at them about how the hot dog wasn't truly free, because they paid for it?
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby poochyena » Sun May 22, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

Angua wrote:and how many people who actually do stay actually reflect on the words that they are saying, or the concept behind it, and not just repeating it mindlessly as happens with everything you do all the time.


Mokele wrote:When I was in HS, I hated all that crap too, yet just two years later I had no reservations about taking the oath to become a US citizen. Why? It's all about frequency.

US high schools are nothing short of propaganda mills when it comes to US nationalism - You do the pledge every single day, the national anthem for every sports event, and one or both at assemblies and pep rallies. The second HS I went to even paired it with blaring obnoxious dreck like "Proud to be an American" over the speakers. Every. Fucking. Day. Combined with history class, which, outside of AP history, ranges from simply omitting concepts or events that make the US look bad to outright revisionism, you're trapped in this warped world where the US can do no wrong, dissent is treated as heresy, and you're compelled to pledge without even truly understanding (the pledge starts in elementary school or Kindergarten).

In that environment, it's easy to see why the OP is fed up with it. And bear in mind, the recollections above are pre-9/11 - I don't even want to think about how bad it is now.

this is y i feel that standing for the flag is pointless, its just mindlessly being said and no one even understands y we do it
I guess i just hate it when people think saying the pledge is gonna make America better, u gotta do alittle more the saying the pledge to make America better....
and yes, its sad how people are like "America is better then any other country!" when they no nothing about other countries wat-so-ever besides maybe some stereotypes or w/e.



oh, and about me, i'm in 9th grade, and i don't do stuff cause i'm lazy, if anything, i do stuff to see what happens and try and understand y people think or do things they do. (also, srry i'm not the best wording things sometimes o.x)

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Re: Standing for the flag

Postby eSOANEM » Sun May 22, 2011 9:49 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun May 22, 2011 9:55 pm UTC

I think the side track about whether or not we SHOULD is moot; the OP doesn't have to, and it's their right not to. I wouldn't judge you for doing so, but I think simply being too lazy to stand isn't the best of reasons. That said, it's not my place to tell you what qualifies as a 'good' reason.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby maxh » Mon May 23, 2011 1:38 am UTC

poochyena wrote:i'm new to these forums, so srry if i do anything wrong o.x


ok, i know lots of people will probably disagree with me, but i would just like to know what people think.
At school, during the morning announcements, we stand up and say the pledge of allegiance, but for the past year i stopped saying it, but the past 2 weeks, i stopped standing up for it, and this angered everyone in class, and my teacher, my teacher just now noticed today though, and she got very mad and was like "everyone in this classroom stands for the flag!!!!!!!!!".
But i find it silly, what is talking to the flag gonna do? nothing. plain and simple. I just don't understand really, flag represents America, yes, but talking to it every morning in a classroom.. kinda pointless

I'm really just wanting to know if anyone agrees with me wat-so-ever, and what people think..

Under West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), you are not required to participate in the Pledge ceremony. I work in student rights advocacy, so please contact me via PM if you want me to contact your school. If you're uncomfortable with that, I can give you more information about your rights, but generally schools are more willing to cave when sent a letter from outside.

(Blah blah blah not a lawyer, blah blah blah not legal advice, blah blah blah.)

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Bovine Blood » Mon May 23, 2011 3:19 am UTC

freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen wrote:As for the flag thing, unless you are extremely offended at the idea of standing you might as well just stand and not say it. However, if you really have a problem with standing during the pledge and are not just being an angsty teen (I am not saying you are btw) then you have a right to voice that opinion and bring it up with your teacher or school administrator if he/she gives you a hard time about it. Just remember that the flag is a very important symbol to the people who have risked or lost their lives so you would have the right to not say the pledge.

I also refuse to pledge allegiance in school. I think you will find most people quite accepting if you explain your reasons for doing so and do it in a nonthreatening, cooperative manner. Refusing to say the pledge is a choice, one I agree with and most people will accept. Refusing to stand for the pledge could be taken as disrespectful to the people who choose to say the pledge, the flag and what it symbolizes, or current members and veterans of the United States military, any of which could hurt your social capital something considerable. I agree with free...een.

Solt wrote:You are pledging allegiance to two things: 1) the flag, 2) the United States of America. You are taking an oath of loyalty to the country in which you live. I'm not saying you have to, but if you don't want to maybe you shouldn't be taking the free education your country is providing you with. Also the protection from starvation, disease, and random violence. In fact, if you wanted to leave there are a few hundred million people who would sincerely take that oath and take your place in a heartbeat.

If you don't say the pledge does that really mean you are a traitor? No, but if you can't spend 30 seconds 5 days a week reflecting on what your country stands for, that is sad.


A few things I'd like to say on this.

Mr.Keenan, my 8th grade Civics teacher, had us write out from memory the definition of a citizen on every test (2pt. :) ).
Mr.Keenan wrote:A citizen is one who receives all the various rights and privileges given to him by his national and state government in exchange for his loyalty to them.

I don't know if I could consider that valid for infant citizens, but as a young adult, by not renouncing my citizenship I accept this agreement. The nation has my loyalty until such a time when I believe the government has become too destructive to my safety or pursuit of happiness. I say that because that is what is written in the Declaration of Independence, and I'm a softie for that founding father patriotic crap. Hopefully I'll get over that eventually, but also I consider that a term of my citizenship, and one that I hope I will never need to use. I, by being a citizen, have pledged my allegiance to the government of the United States of America. I do not repeat it endlessly because I do not want to be conditioned to forget my true allegiance to the country of the USA- I stopped saying the pledge when I realized obviously nationalistic ("God Bless the U.S.A." and the like) garbage made me teary- I was conditioned (I think)!

And on the point of taking advantage of public education-
1) Truancy laws do not make it as simple as simply not going, but I do not understand them well and won't say any more about them.
2) Public education is not free. My parents and everyone who owns property in my school district pay considerable sums, as does the state and federal government, to provide for my education. I do not feel any debt for this- everything I used was paid for, and I will pay for other snot nosed kids to be educated when the time comes, and they won't owe me anything. My reasoning is really shaky, please do correct me.

And as to your last point, I do not say the Pledge of Allegiance because it prevents me from properly reflecting on what my country actually stands for by making me dream of it standing for "...liberty and justice for all."

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Bakemaster » Mon May 23, 2011 3:50 am UTC

That may be "a" definition of the word, but it's not a particularly good one. You've pointed out one logical hole, and there are others; for instance, an American convicted of treason retains his or her citizenship. You would do well to seek out a more literal (and factual) definition of a citizen, even as you develop a more nuanced view of the implications of citizenship.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby katethegreat » Mon May 23, 2011 5:47 am UTC

We stopped saying the Pledge after elementary school. I've heard on the news some human interest stories about how some kid (probably a boy scout) was looking to reinstate the Pledge in his school. Seems pretty silly, and a waste of time. My guess is that he did it just to be on the news. Or he was blindly patriotic. I understand the sentiment of supporting our troops, but how is saying the pledge supporting the troops? Sending letters, yes. Understanding the war, yes. Spending 30 seconds a day reciting the pledge... not really?

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby hjordis » Mon May 23, 2011 6:04 am UTC

We stopped saying it after middle school. We had to say it in Spanish as well as English in middle school though, so that was interesting. :|

I don't really have an opinion on this. I suppose it's anyone's right to not say it, and I don't really think saying it has much of a purpose. Or, more accurately, it has a purpose, but isn't serving that purpose since people just recite it mechanically.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 23, 2011 3:49 pm UTC

This thread is about standing for the Pledge of Allegiance. Let's try to keep it that way.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Aiwendil » Mon May 23, 2011 3:59 pm UTC

Bovine Blood wrote:A citizen is one who receives all the various rights and privileges given to him by his national and state government in exchange for his loyalty to them.


With no disrespect intended toward your eighth grade teacher, what makes this and only this the valid definition of citizen? This actually strikes me as a distinctly pre-modern view of citizenship. In the social contract theory out of which modern democratic republicanism largely came, a citizen obtains civil rights by entering into a contract with his or her fellow citizens to the effect that they will establish a government and abide by its laws. The contract is one among citizens, not between the citizens and the government; and it is not loyalty but lawfulness that is part of the compact.

But more pertinently, the 14th amendment to the U.S. constitution grants citizenship with no pre-conditions whatsoever respecting loyalty or even lawfulness to "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof". So I, for example, am a citizen of the United States even though I consider myself bound by no pledge of loyalty or allegiance to it.

Edit: Cross-posted with gmalivuk's admonition to stay on topic. My apologies if this post failed to do so.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 4:00 pm UTC

If you don't say the pledge does that really mean you are a traitor? No, but if you can't spend 30 seconds 5 days a week reflecting on what your country stands for, that is sad.

I'm American and more or less loyal. There are many things I admire about the ideal of America and the reality of America.

I'm not particularly interested in mob exercises.

My parents told me stories, and I would read accounts, of the daily marches and pledges required of students under the communist regime in China. While the practices in the U.S. are not to that extreme, they are clearly meant to rouse the same kind of reaction from the participants. Nothing about the ritual of the pledge, especially the way it's deployed in school, is designed to invite any actual thought over its history and implications. When it's used like that, it's basically turned into a sports slogan.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Babam » Mon May 23, 2011 4:09 pm UTC

It's because your state is probably a pledge state where schools are required to do it by law. If you hate it so much just pledge allegiance to Dr.Steel every morning

I Pledge Alliegance
To Doctor Steel
And His Vision Of A Utopian Playland
And To His Robots
For Which They Stand
One World
Under Him
Together
With Toys And Happiness For All
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby podbaydoor » Mon May 23, 2011 4:22 pm UTC

I graduated from college last year, I haven't had to do the mob exercise since high school. Since then I've hardly recited the pledge because it was always during some kind of ceremony or press conference, and I was working as a journalist or videographer, and too busy finding good camera angles. Protip: if you're in the business of propaganda, the pledge of allegiance recitation makes for GREAT footage.

Edit: For alternative recitations, I also favor the one put forth in the young adult novel "In the Year of the Boar and Jackie Robinson":
I pledge allegiance to the frog of the United States of America, and to the wee puppet for witches' hands. One Asian, in the vestibule, with little tea and just rice for all.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby poochyena » Mon May 23, 2011 9:22 pm UTC

Thanks for all the great posts, i'm really happy to see i'm not alone, and to see intelligent posts

also
katethegreat wrote: I understand the sentiment of supporting our troops, but how is saying the pledge supporting the troops? Sending letters, yes. Understanding the war, yes. Spending 30 seconds a day reciting the pledge... not really?

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Solt » Wed May 25, 2011 2:44 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:I'm not particularly interested in mob exercises.

My parents told me stories, and I would read accounts, of the daily marches and pledges required of students under the communist regime in China. While the practices in the U.S. are not to that extreme, they are clearly meant to rouse the same kind of reaction from the participants. Nothing about the ritual of the pledge, especially the way it's deployed in school, is designed to invite any actual thought over its history and implications. When it's used like that, it's basically turned into a sports slogan.


I see nothing wrong with the Chinese promoting nationalism in their schools. China is not a unified society and it could easily fracture into a half dozen pieces if something happened to threaten social stability there. It took the Qin dynasty years of bloody war to unify China, and it's important for the survival of their society to reinforce that shared identity.

Of course the Chinese go quite a bit further than that, and drawing parallels between them and the American pledge is completely deceptive. I would hardly call a 30 second pledge brainwashing (replying to not just podbaydoor now). No one is lying to you in that pledge, no one is telling you you are a democracy when you really aren't like they do in China. No one is claiming to represent god in order to rule over you, no one is holding the boogeyman of foreign (or domestic) invasion over your head to justify the fact that they stole the elections or are a military dictatorship. It's a 30 second pledge of allegiance, the words of which have barely changed for 100 years, and it is the ONLY such interference from the government most people will ever see as they go about their daily lives. The pledge is NOT brainwashing, not by a million miles.


Nothing about the ritual of the pledge, especially the way it's deployed in school, is designed to invite any actual thought over its history and implications. When it's used like that, it's basically turned into a sports slogan.


That sounds like a double standard to me. If the pledge was any longer or was meant to evoke specific thoughts, you'd be up in arms about how that's propaganda. I would be too, which is why I like it as is. It's an American cultural tradition, one of like, 2 (along with the national anthem).
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Jahoclave » Wed May 25, 2011 4:41 am UTC

poochyena wrote:also, its the end of the school year, so it don't matter much now i guess, but my teacher, ms.springer, says that if you join FBLA club(or w/e it is), then you will get a 100 quiz grade, a free day once a month or so, and last week, people in FBLA got to skip school and go to the park, and 2 days later, they got to skip a period, and go eat pizza. oh, and to join FBLA, it costs 15 dollars.

Well, they can't legally do that. Especially the part involving the grades. Hell, technically I can't even give extra credit to attend events unless everybody can do it or I have alternative assignments. And something you have to pay for is definitely not going to stand. So they either have to give you the same ability to get a 100 quiz grade or they've got legality issues. The rest of that probably is a bit uncouth, in the skipping class bit. So yeah, what they're doing is illegal.

As for the pledge, I have a bit of an issue pledging allegiance to an imperialist power with a shady human rights record. Not to mention I'm not very found of backing an oligarchy or any kind of state that would use symbolism and jingoism rather than action to promote loyalty.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby gmalivuk » Wed May 25, 2011 11:51 am UTC

Solt wrote:It's a 30 second pledge of allegiance, the words of which have barely changed for 100 years, and it is the ONLY such interference from the government most people will ever see as they go about their daily lives. The pledge is NOT brainwashing, not by a million miles.
Adding the rather contentious "under God" doesn't count as "barely changing". And even if it's not brainwashing, the OP has a legal right not to stand for it, your personal opinions on the matter be damned.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Chen » Wed May 25, 2011 2:38 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Adding the rather contentious "under God" doesn't count as "barely changing". And even if it's not brainwashing, the OP has a legal right not to stand for it, your personal opinions on the matter be damned.


Well personal opinions actually matter a fair bit I'd say in school. Sure you can legally not stand and the teacher can't punish you for it, but the rest of the students certainly can. If the other students feel the same way as Solt (which may be the case considering the OP said the whole rest of the class was angered), it is certainly something that should be considered in the decision.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 25, 2011 4:02 pm UTC

Yeah, personally, I let all my decisions in highschool be dictated by what my peers thought. I mean, they just know better, and we all know that acceptance into their esteemed ranks is of the utmost importance.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Chen » Wed May 25, 2011 4:29 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Yeah, personally, I let all my decisions in highschool be dictated by what my peers thought. I mean, they just know better, and we all know that acceptance into their esteemed ranks is of the utmost importance.


Well from someone who was bullied quite a bit in school I can tell you that trying to avoid making MORE enemies (even if you're doing it for the right reason) is certainly something to consider. At least it was something I would consider were I in that situation.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Jahoclave » Thu May 26, 2011 12:41 am UTC

Chen wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Yeah, personally, I let all my decisions in highschool be dictated by what my peers thought. I mean, they just know better, and we all know that acceptance into their esteemed ranks is of the utmost importance.


Well from someone who was bullied quite a bit in school I can tell you that trying to avoid making MORE enemies (even if you're doing it for the right reason) is certainly something to consider. At least it was something I would consider were I in that situation.

Because clearly giving in to aggressive bullying tactics is the right way to go. Same reason we always negotiate with terrorists.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Bakemaster » Thu May 26, 2011 1:19 am UTC

Chen wrote:from someone who was bullied quite a bit in school I can tell you

Oh my goodness, fellow xkcd forum members! This fellow was bullied in school!

What was it like, Chen? Do tell us, please.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby eSOANEM » Thu May 26, 2011 7:36 am UTC

Bakemaster wrote:
Chen wrote:from someone who was bullied quite a bit in school I can tell you

Oh my goodness, fellow xkcd forum members! This fellow was bullied in school!

What was it like, Chen? Do tell us, please.


^This = not helpful.

I too was bullied in school (not any more thankfully) and was throttled or kicked several times a day. I agree with Chen, whether you like it or not, if you're being bullied your main goal is to make it stop/stop it getting worse. It's all very well saying "just ignore them" or "tell the teachers", but these don't work due to the attitude that bakemaster is exhibiting so perfectly here.

You may think that taking people's opinions into count just because your scared of being bullied is wrong, but it is the only thing that reliably reduces or prevents additional bullying and pretending otherwise or mocking people that have realised this first hand is. Not. Helpful. Don't do it.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 26, 2011 11:51 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:people that have realised this first hand
The point Bakemaster was making is that neither of you are likely in a minority among forum readers for having dealt with bullying in school. So don't act like your perspective on it is somehow more accurate than people who disagree, who may also have been bullied.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Chen » Thu May 26, 2011 1:40 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The point Bakemaster was making is that neither of you are likely in a minority among forum readers for having dealt with bullying in school. So don't act like your perspective on it is somehow more accurate than people who disagree, who may also have been bullied.


The only reason I added the bullied part, was to add context to why I was supporting a course of action. You can advocate a course of action, but ignoring (or at least omitting) the possible or probably consequences of that course of action is irresponsible. Depending on the school and an individual's situation in said school, just going along with something (or paying lip service in this case) might result in the best outcome, even if you have the rights to do something else.

There is a fairly large catch-22 when dealing with the way bullies are handled in schools. If no one changes the way they act, sure nothing will be done. But by being the trailblazer yourself, things are going to be significantly worse for you, but perhaps the system will change. In any case, we're getting fairly off-topic here so I'll leave it at that.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Bakemaster » Thu May 26, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

I agree with Chen, whether you like it or not, if you're being bullied your main goal is to make it stop/stop it getting worse. It's all very well saying "just ignore them" or "tell the teachers", but these don't work due to the attitude that bakemaster is exhibiting so perfectly here.

My biggest tormentor lived two doors down from me. He liked to call me a faggot and chase me down the street whipping tennis balls at my head. Another kid on my street once pissed on me in broad daylight; his father liked to make fun of my yarmulke. A third neighbor stole my bike, and his father yelled from the window that he was going to beat the shit out of me when I went to retrieve it.

Go ahead and let your bullies control you. I never did and I'm still here, listening to people act like nobody could possibly understand what they went through on a fucking webcomic forum for supernerds. Around here, your experience (and mine) are downright banal. So please, don't act like it makes you an authority.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby eSOANEM » Thu May 26, 2011 9:26 pm UTC

Bakemaster wrote:Go ahead and let your bullies control you. I never did and I'm still here, listening to people act like nobody could possibly understand what they went through on a fucking webcomic forum for supernerds. Around here, your experience (and mine) are downright banal. So please, don't act like it makes you an authority.


I didn't mean to suggest that my experience was unique or gave me any sort of authority, I was merely commenting that such things can effect how you act and that, even though you made a valid point that many people on this forum will have been bullied, the tone with which you expressed it was insensitive.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Jahoclave » Thu May 26, 2011 9:54 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Bakemaster wrote:Go ahead and let your bullies control you. I never did and I'm still here, listening to people act like nobody could possibly understand what they went through on a fucking webcomic forum for supernerds. Around here, your experience (and mine) are downright banal. So please, don't act like it makes you an authority.


I didn't mean to suggest that my experience was unique or gave me any sort of authority, I was merely commenting that such things can effect how you act and that, even though you made a valid point that many people on this forum will have been bullied, the tone with which you expressed it was insensitive.

Not really.

And perhaps, if more people rather stood up against this sort of shit rather than say, suggest it try to be avoided, we'd have less of a problem. Sorry, but bullying is criminal harassment. It's time we started treating it as such.

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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby Bakemaster » Thu May 26, 2011 9:57 pm UTC

I certainly could have been more diplomatic. I apologize for letting my irritation get the better of me.
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Re: Standing for the flag + clubs

Postby eSOANEM » Fri May 27, 2011 7:47 am UTC

I did likewise so I can't criticise too strongly.

Jahoclave wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:
Bakemaster wrote:Go ahead and let your bullies control you. I never did and I'm still here, listening to people act like nobody could possibly understand what they went through on a fucking webcomic forum for supernerds. Around here, your experience (and mine) are downright banal. So please, don't act like it makes you an authority.


I didn't mean to suggest that my experience was unique or gave me any sort of authority, I was merely commenting that such things can effect how you act and that, even though you made a valid point that many people on this forum will have been bullied, the tone with which you expressed it was insensitive.

Not really.

And perhaps, if more people rather stood up against this sort of shit rather than say, suggest it try to be avoided, we'd have less of a problem. Sorry, but bullying is criminal harassment. It's time we started treating it as such.


I agree with this whole-heartedly. In my experience however the problem has been that there's no way for the victim to escalate as the authority figures are the ones who don't take it seriously (I remember one time, a teacher broke up an incident where I was being attacked and I got a detention and the other person didn't get anything because I was always involved in things like that and the teacher couldn't be bothered to listen when I tried to explain).
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