Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:50 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:There's really only so much that can be said about "boy people sure do hate us!"


Which is why good series eventually end.

Or else they just descend further and further into total craptacularity.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby DarkKnightJared » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:12 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:I don't think Ellis is the word in the phrase "Ellis's Astonishing X-Men" that's making it suck. I think it's the other two words.

Yeah, I said it. So what? Wanna fight about it?


Well, Ellis seems to be the only writer right now that realizes that the X-Men SHOULDN'T BE IN FUCKING SPACE, which already makes him far better then the rest of the pack.

I know, I know, but it's a pet peeve of mine. They should be a team of super civil rights fighters, not fucking space explorers.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:42 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:There's really only so much that can be said about "boy people sure do hate us!"


Which is why good series eventually end.

Or else they just descend further and further into total craptacularity.

Yes, because it's entirely impossible to tell different stories using the same characters. I mean, Ellis does it all the time; he just changes their names.
DarkKnightJared wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:I don't think Ellis is the word in the phrase "Ellis's Astonishing X-Men" that's making it suck. I think it's the other two words.

Yeah, I said it. So what? Wanna fight about it?


Well, Ellis seems to be the only writer right now that realizes that the X-Men SHOULDN'T BE IN FUCKING SPACE, which already makes him far better then the rest of the pack.

I know, I know, but it's a pet peeve of mine. They should be a team of super civil rights fighters, not fucking space explorers.

Um, except that Ellis's book is currently the only one dealing with space (ignoring the Secret Invasion tie-in).

Not to mention they've had a history of space travel going back to at least the 70s.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:34 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Belial wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:There's really only so much that can be said about "boy people sure do hate us!"


Which is why good series eventually end.

Or else they just descend further and further into total craptacularity.

Yes, because it's entirely impossible to tell different stories using the same characters. I mean, Ellis does it all the time; he just changes their names.


Putting aside that you're out of your damn mind.....

Even if we accepted that he was just using similar characters over and over, telling different stories with temporally unrelated (however much they do or don't resemble each other, as a matter of personal opinion) characters is a better idea because it doesn't build up piles of needless continuity, or require back-ass justifications for why the characters are still relevant, or pulled-out-of-the-air plot twists to put them back in action, or a sliding timeline to explain why they're still 30 (how many wars have iron man and captain america "originated" in by now?).
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:21 pm UTC

Please tell me the character difference between Hard Drinking Hard Smoking Trenchcoat Guy 1 and Hard Drinking Hard Smoking Trenchcoat Guy 2. Ellis readily admits that he recycles plots and throws in different characters as necessary.

None of the characters anyone writes are relevant. They're comic characters for entertainment purposes. Maybe they have a greater message. Maybe they just punch each other. It ultimately makes no difference since it's nothing more than a diversion from reality.

Iron Man's been adjusted several times because it's ultimately not important to his character other than that he was in a war once (and as of now it's Afghanistan which will maintain relevance for many years to come since we've been there more often than not in the past 20 years or so). Captain America has always started in WWII and will always start in WWII since it IS important to his character much like Punisher has always been a Vietnam vet and will always be a Vietnam vet.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:53 pm UTC

Haha, oh man. Bill Gravel, Fell, Anna Mercury, Spider Jerusalem and Doktor Sleepless are all the same person?

And of course the characters are important, because the characters have motivations and it's their motivations that drive the plot forward.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:21 am UTC

Jesse wrote:Haha, oh man. Bill Gravel, Fell, Anna Mercury, Spider Jerusalem and Doktor Sleepless are all the same person?


Don't forget Jenny Sparks, Carrick Masterson, and the entire Freakangels crew.

They're all so identical.

None of the characters anyone writes are relevant. They're comic characters for entertainment purposes. Maybe they have a greater message. Maybe they just punch each other. It ultimately makes no difference since it's nothing more than a diversion from reality.


Umm. Okay. Interesting thing to say on a literature forum.

But I meant relevant to the story. Why, within the fictional world, these people are even still important. You know, under the assumption you were trying to tell a good story.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:30 am UTC

Once again Jordan, we've hit the problem of discussing literature on a nerdy science forum. It's times like these I kinda of understand how Quixotess feels.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:42 pm UTC

Either appalled or about to be appalled? :)

I think you can readily spot an Ellis character from a mile away after just a page of dialog, but that doesn't mean they're all the same. That means, shockingly, as a writer, he has a style. He plays and flexes and experiments, but it's certainly his style. That does not mean all his characters are the same.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby steewi » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:39 am UTC

I only just started reading Doktor Sleepless yesterday (upon my purchase of the first TPB). It is quite brilliant. My mind is spinning.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Joeldi » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:44 am UTC

Awwr Rats. Skip Week, and only two weeks in to my Fanhood.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby nona » Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:48 pm UTC

I've only read Crooked Little Vein and I have to say, I was pretty unimpressed. It was mildly entertaining, but I thought it came off as contrived and amateurish. Sort of as if a horny adolescent boy wrote a mediocre piece of wish-fulfillment fiction after being inspired by Hunter S. Thompson.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:17 am UTC

You will be first against the wall.

But maybe try Transmetropolitan? It's still the greatest thing he's ever written.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Okita » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:28 pm UTC

Todays Freak Angels has a great AYB reference. I may have produced a laugh in an outward manner.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Joeldi » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

It's not the first internet culture reference I've seen in that strip. I think I heard somewhere , maybe that Ellis is a *chantard.
I already have a hate thread. Necromancy > redundancy here, so post there.

roc314 wrote:America is a police state that communicates in txt speak...

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:56 am UTC

Doubtful. But they supposedly amuse him quite a bit.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:22 am UTC

Yeah, I assume he is the kind of person who laughs maniacally while reading the internet.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby steewi » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:26 am UTC

Jesse wrote:Yeah, I assume he is the kind of person who laughs maniacally while reading the internet.


Having just read Crooked Little Vein. Yes.

Vanilla me learnt a few new words and concepts reading that book.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Ishindri » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:54 am UTC

I just finished reading Transmetropolitan, and it is pretty much the best thing I have ever read. Pity it's over, though.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:28 pm UTC

I disagree. Things that end (comics, book series) usually end up better as the writer can actually create a good arc and .. well, arc it to the conclusion. When you have a ongoing until it's canceled series, it's hard to actually get anything done.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Ishindri » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:16 pm UTC

Touché. I suppose it's like having a really good dinner - when it's over, you're full, and it was so damn tasty you'd gladly eat it again. But the plates are empty. Of course, if you continued eating, you'd give yourself a stomachache and probably develop an aversion to that food.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:28 pm UTC

Well, it's not just that. It's also that even if you are able to continue eating without difficulty, the kitchen runs out of the ingredients and starts substituting things in. That fantastic cut of meat becomes an inferior one, or perhaps they have to use a different kind of lettuce in the salad. Sometimes it works almost as well. Occasionally it even comes out a bit better, but given a long enough timeline, they just run out of stuff to serve you. It also doesn't help that the chefs get off work eventually, so you no longer have the same person(s) cooking your meal, so they only have their training and what the chef was doing before them with which to construct each subsequent meal. Again, sometimes it comes together well and the new chef takes it in a new direction and makes it more enjoyable..

But no matter what, eventually that wonderful meal becomes a pile of barely edible slop and you're lucky if you don't end up hating the entire experience.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:46 pm UTC

Not to mention the fact that they would keep having to change the dishes enough that you didn't get bored with them, but not so much that it ruined the cohesion of the meal...
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:51 pm UTC

And now and then some guy comes along and jizzes into your soup.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:18 am UTC

Then they kick you out, invite you back in, start serving you the first dish again and assure you constantly that the whole jizz-in-soup thing Never Happened and is not canon anymore.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:12 pm UTC

Guys, we are so good at metaphors.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:45 pm UTC

As good as something that is good at something.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby nona » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:49 am UTC

... That was pretty fantastic. For that, I will put Transmetropolitan on my to-read list and give Ellis a second chance to wow me.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:48 am UTC

nona wrote:... That was pretty fantastic. For that, I will put Transmetropolitan on my to-read list and give Ellis a second chance to wow me.


Hahah. It's come to my attention that the book you read was also one of the few works he's apologized for. Apparently, his publisher or his agent or someone committed him to an earlier deadline than he thought he was committed to, and failed to tell him in any kind of timely fashion.

So if the end felt slapped together, and the whole thing seemed unpolished, that'd be why.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby KOSMOSX7 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:25 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Hahah. It's come to my attention that the book you read was also one of the few works he's apologized for. Apparently, his publisher or his agent or someone committed him to an earlier deadline than he thought he was committed to, and failed to tell him in any kind of timely fashion.

So if the end felt slapped together, and the whole thing seemed unpolished, that'd be why.

I read his authorial apologia. It's at the end of the book. I wish he stuck it at the front though, so I could've enjoyed his work for what it was -- an uninspired, throwaway bone he had tossed to an agent hankering for something to sell.

nona wrote:I've only read Crooked Little Vein and I have to say, I was pretty unimpressed. It was mildly entertaining, but I thought it came off as contrived and amateurish. Sort of as if a horny adolescent boy wrote a mediocre piece of wish-fulfillment fiction after being inspired by Hunter S. Thompson.

That Ellis novel felt like a third-rate Chuck Palahniuk rip-off to me when I read it. Especially when he brought in the interlude/detour/schlocky shock of the saline solution & genitals 'party'.

That said, I love the Old Bastard though. I still need to finish reading his Come In Alone. Though given his hatred of the superhero genre, I'm surprised to hear in here that he's actually written shit for the X-Men. Like, NextWave I could *understand*, but at least with that, *mocking* superheroes was the entire point.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Belial » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:30 pm UTC

He doesn't hate superheroes, though. Just the way most people write them.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby KOSMOSX7 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:06 pm UTC

To be fair, his early reasons for hating the genre had nothing to do with the genre itself and everything to do with how the industry's fixation on it was stifling the medium. This was followed by a larger, long-standing rant that writers shouldn't be dragging on "character-based properties" (e.g. Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man, et al.) for the profit of "brand management" companies (i.e. DC, Marvel).

So yeah. He doesn't *hate* hate, superheroes. But he still thinks that given enough time (and enough power), they'll all evolve into maladjusted psychopaths.

I'm not too tuned into his opinions now. And when I am, I'm more interested in his Comics Crusader persona than his craft. Most fans I know don't even bother to keep tabs on his blog/LiveJournal/Twitter, etc.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby dbsmith » Mon May 18, 2009 12:11 pm UTC

This is probably old news for most, but ol' Ellis has written some new G.I. Joe cartoon episodes. With, u know, blood and death and stuff.
Find em over at Cartoon Networks Adult Swim.
Or youtube search them, for as long as they last....

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Tue May 19, 2009 12:19 am UTC

And they were pretty good, as far as episodes of G.I. Joe go.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Arpy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:47 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:nextwave is by far the best thing ever.

This! I do so love a comic that
Warren Ellis wrote:is not about Character Arcs and Learning and Morals and Hugs. It is about cramming an insane movie into 44 pages at a time. It is about the mad things underpinning Marvel Comics and it is about special effects out of Asian cinema and absurd levels of destruction and a skewed sense of humor and Spectacle and things blowing up and people getting kicked.

It is most especially about THINGS BLOWING UP and PEOPLE GETTING KICKED.

It is about humanoid Clone Things made out of engine oil and broccoli being smacked to death by a woman with a guitar.

Such a pity it was canceled.
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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Guy_At_A_Keyboard » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:22 pm UTC

So, has anybody read his new series Ignition City? 'Cause so far I really like it.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:21 pm UTC

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby ian » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:41 pm UTC

Crooked Little Vein the last novel I read cover to cover in one go, no idea how it would be hard to get into it. go read it now.

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby tgjensen » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:50 pm UTC

Speaking of Mr. Ellis, Planetary #27,the last in the series, is finally, finally out!

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Re: Let's all talk about Warren Ellis, now.

Postby Jesse » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:51 am UTC

Just don't tell Warren it is.


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