Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

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Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:04 am UTC

First off, watchmen is a graphic novel written by Alan Moore with illustrations done by Dave Gibbons. It is VERY highly acclaimed, but don't take my word for it:

Wikipedia wrote:"To date, Watchmen remains the only graphic novel to win a Hugo Award, and is also the only graphic novel to appear on Time Magazine's 2005 list of "the 100 best English-language novels from 1923 to the present."


Anyway, if you have not read it, read it now. If you have, lets discuss the merits, the greatness, and the pitfalls.

I will start, the way John sees time is so amazing. It is so beautifully presented on a page and puts across such a complex idea very elegantly. Do you think it could of been done better?

Do you think Rorschach deserved what he got at the end? Do you think he was doing the right thing? What would you of done in his position?
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby CogDissident » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

I think Rorschach was doing what he should be doing, with his very rigid moral code. I also think that what happened to him was entirely justified. Ruining the world for the sake of justice is the kind of moral absolute that would undo all that had happened.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:22 pm UTC

You see i think that Rorschach was doing the wrong thing and that John had it wrong. I think that if i were in Rorschach's shoes, i would do the same thing. Regardless of reason, someone that kills that many people deserves to be outed. I think even if it was a ploy the deed is done and Adrian's plan would still work.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby dbsmith » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:22 am UTC

Isn't this then the age-old argument of "is it right to do a small evil in order to prevent a greater one?"
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Azrael001 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:24 am UTC

I think that Rorschach should have been spared. What's his face should have been brought to justice, even if it was done secretly.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:55 am UTC

R was hell bent on bringing this injustice to light. What could John (the giant blue nudist) of done differently. It was pretty much he dies or he tells. Didn't seem like any middle ground. Maybe imprison him? But even that has risks
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Azrael001 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:23 am UTC

John can make perfectly livable palace on Mars, he can set up something suitable for Rorschach. A hero who did not deserve what he got.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Various Varieties » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:28 am UTC

Last year's BBC4 Comics Britannia documentaries were wonderful things to see on TV at all, but man, they really did Watchmen a disservice by limiting their description of its unique appeal to a voiceover saying (paraphrasing) "its characters occupied a dark and bleak world".

You see, for me, the things that really make Watchmen are the repeated visual compositions, motifs and patterns - the "Hiroshima lovers" image, for example, is echoed throughout the book in numerous panel compositions. There are loads of other ones like that all through the comic, and they probably reach their peak of multilayered ambition in Chapter V: "Fearful Symmetry", whose structure is just crazy.

No way could anyone spot all that in on first reading - thankfully sites like Watchmen Annotations and Watching the Detectives have already done all the hard work. I mean, it's incredible that Watchmen is such a layered work that it somehow only gets more interesting even if you read it in the strangest ways.

Regarding the Watchmen film, I alternate between thinking that if they don't find some way of transferring those visual motifs onto film then it won't be Watchmen; and thinking that the basic story is strong enough to stand on its own whatever the medium. I'm generally quite positive about the movie, anyway.

Watchmen isn't my favourite Alan Moore work - his ABC writing (I'm particularly fond of Tom Strong, and the two Top 10 spinoffs The Forty-Niners and the very Terry Pratchetty Smax) is generally much more fun. You've also got to love his 2000AD Future Shocks, The Ballad of Halo Jones and his definitive goodbye to the Silver Age Superman. (His dead-on parody of Frank Miller's Daredevil run is also sheer genius.) But Watchmen is definitely his densest, flashiest, and most ambitious... though parts of what I've read of Promethea come close!

There's an amazing interview with him available online, called "The Craft". It's 15000 words long or something ridiculous, but it's incredibly fascinating. As is any interview with a man who can come out with a comment like this:

"The only references there are to him [the snake god Glycon] in the literature, which are very disparaging, are in the works of the philosopher Lucien. Lucien explains that the whole Glycon cult was an enormous fraud, and that Glycon was a glove puppet. And I've got no reason to disbelieve that whatsoever. To me, I think that's perfect. If I'm gonna have a god, I prefer it to be a complete hoax and a glove puppet because I'm not likely to start believing that glove puppet created the universe or anything dangerous like that."

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Belial » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:06 pm UTC

Gojoe wrote:Do you think Rorschach deserved what he got at the end? Do you think he was doing the right thing?


I think he thought it was. And I think it was important to the book that he fail, and that he die.

I think that if Adrian Veidt had been foiled, the book would've become every other superhero/supervillain rag ever. Veidt even said so when he lampshaded the classic "and now I tell you my master plan, Mr Bond" speech, and then revealed the plan was already complete and there was nothing they could do. It would have been too unbearably cliche otherwise.

So Rorschach had to fail. And it only made sense. But if Rorschach had failed and lived, it would've brutally dulled the impact of his character, and I imagine he would've seen any scenario in which he lived to be a compromise anyway. So he died. All things considered, that was the best outcome for him. I think he got what he wanted.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Dobblesworth » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:31 pm UTC

I'm going to don my fire-resistant suit before saying this ... .... ah there we go, now where was I, oh yes ... ... but I honestly thought Dr. Manhattan's and Ozymandias' actions were pretty callous and disregarding. I understand the "For the Greater Good" philosophy behind it, but the ends don't quite justify the means, and I don't really think the ends were that excellent anyway.

I see the valour and courage in aborting the Cold War and tipping the world away from 23:59:59, but it doesn't quite seem justified to summon in a warp-spawned daemon of chaos in the middle of Manhattan, wipe out a few million people to get East and West to resolve their differences and break out the peace treaties.

Of course Watchmen is that team of 'anti-heroes' 'saving' the world through morally-questionable means, but I just felt that Veidt's actions are him essentially being, well, a dick basically.

Did Moore want us to feel sorrow for Rorschach, or accept that he died because he couldn't take the deaths of 10 million weighed against saving the other 6 billion? Because I sortof felt like the former. Would one man, specifically a crazed 'seeing things in black and white' vigilante actually make enough of a difference by exposing things for Dr. Manhattan to have to obliterate him into oblivion? Especially someone who's just going to teleport away from that galaxy five minutes later - what does he care whether Rorschach lived to tell the tale and moved back to civilisation to inform the masses?

Just some food for thought.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Belial » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:42 pm UTC

Of course Veidt was callous. If you'd asked him, he'd say he was exactly callous enough to do what needed to be done. And Dr Manhattan is just...weird. His perspective is too far out to really make sense. At a base level, it seems like he was just protecting those little thermodynamic miracles he talked about.

As for whether you're meant to sympathize with Rorschach or villify him for his choice....that'd be kindof oversimplifying the book. I imagine that, much like Veidt, you're supposed to understand why he's doing what he's doing, but that's about it.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Malice » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:37 pm UTC

Dobblesworth wrote:I see the valour and courage in aborting the Cold War and tipping the world away from 23:59:59, but it doesn't quite seem justified to summon in a warp-spawned daemon of chaos in the middle of Manhattan, wipe out a few million people to get East and West to resolve their differences and break out the peace treaties.


It looks a little different now, but back then I think it made more sense. A few million people to avoid what seemed like inevitable nuclear holocaust? Makes sense to me.

My main problem with Veidt's plan is that it wouldn't last. This might be too cynical even for Watchmen, but I can easily imagine the major powers seeking peace for a while... until no more alien entities approach... no discernible external enemy can be found or understood or fought against... I think eventually they'd just forget, and go back to their fight.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:21 am UTC

Wow malice that... is so true. Even through all their efforts, the bombs are still in the hands of all the powers around the world...
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Vaniver » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:36 am UTC

<3 Watchmen

I think my favorite line is Dr. Manhattan's final one- "In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends."

I think Rorschach's end was fitting. I think that Veidt could have come up with a better plan- but I think that he made the right decision, if his choice is what he thought it was. I have more faith than he in the rationality of men with their fingers on the nuclear button- but I live in a world that survived its cold war.


The story of Rorschach and the dog. Wow.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Maseiken » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:06 pm UTC

What I love most about Watchmen, is every character explores a different aspect of realism in Superhero comics.

The most obvious example of this (to me) is of course, Rorsharch. He represents tanother face of urban Heroes like Daredevil or Spiderman. Sure, he's cool, and he does the right thing, makes stuff better. But when someone grievously injures random people on the street, and uses extreme violence to fulfill their goals? These are not the actions of a well-rounded person. One could even see them as a Psychopath.

That's mainly why I didn't like his Hannibal Lecture. He may be very convincing, and he may have a goddamn point, but he is still insane. The first thing you should do when dealing with him is establish your own stability, no matter what his reasons are, they cannot affect your own.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby william » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:26 pm UTC

Azrael001 wrote:John can make perfectly livable palace on Mars, he can set up something suitable for Rorschach. A hero who did not deserve what he got.

It never said he died. Just that he won't see civilization for a long time. That could have happened. He is, for all intents and purposes, dead for the rest of the world, but there's no reason he's necessarily actually dead.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Dobblesworth » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

william wrote:
Azrael001 wrote:John can make perfectly livable palace on Mars, he can set up something suitable for Rorschach. A hero who did not deserve what he got.

It never said he died. Just that he won't see civilization for a long time. That could have happened. He is, for all intents and purposes, dead for the rest of the world, but there's no reason he's necessarily actually dead.

*rechecks his copy of Watchmen*
Spoiler:
Hmmm exact dialogue:
The Bible wrote:RO: "Of course. Must protect Veidt's new Utopia. One more body amongst foundations makes little difference."
"Well, what are you waiting for?"
"DO IT."
DM: "Rorschach..."
RO (in a desperate pleading manner, with tears streaming down a visible and emotional face):"DO IT!"

*Next panel shows Dr. Manhattan passively atomising Rorschach, with a pink aura emanating from Rorschach's flailing white-blue form.*
*Following panel shows Dr. Manhattan calmly walking away from a steaming reddened puddle in the snow.*

Right, correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing one panel with individual dots on the form of Rorschach, hinting that he is being atomised, followed by a pool of liquidised body matter, surely implies that he's dead. Rorschach knows Manhattan is all-powerful, but if his desire for the "it", was for being spirited away to live a lonely existence on a clocktower on Mars, then that wouldn't work. Unless Manhattan reads minds and could acknowledge such a request, he would follow what Rorschach implied, namely, that he couldn't bear living in a world where someone had taken a moral compromise to create, and living in one where he knew he had to, but probably couldn't, do anything about. Also "one more body amongst foundations makes little difference" - implying the clean instant death he wanted.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:09 am UTC

I agree. I never thought that R survived. I assumed that John vaporized him.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Macbi » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:10 am UTC

When John looks into the future from mars he says he is "killing someone in the snow".
    Indigo is a lie.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:39 am UTC

Macbi wrote:When John looks into the future from mars he says he is "killing someone in the snow".


Fantastic Thanks for clearing that up
.i am currently rereading it, but got sidetracked when i went to comic store...
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*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby dbsmith » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:37 am UTC

My main problem with Veidt's plan is that it wouldn't last. This might be too cynical even for Watchmen, but I can easily imagine the major powers seeking peace for a while... until no more alien entities approach... no discernible external enemy can be found or understood or fought against... I think eventually they'd just forget, and go back to their fight.


I kinda thought that Veidt, being the smartest man on the planet, had A) calculated that his plan would last a long long time or B) had plans to make the peace last.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:07 am UTC

dbsmith wrote:
My main problem with Veidt's plan is that it wouldn't last. This might be too cynical even for Watchmen, but I can easily imagine the major powers seeking peace for a while... until no more alien entities approach... no discernible external enemy can be found or understood or fought against... I think eventually they'd just forget, and go back to their fight.


I kinda thought that Veidt, being the smartest man on the planet, had A) calculated that his plan would last a long long time or B) had plans to make the peace last.


Do you think he would care about the state of the world past his life time?
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Macbi » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:19 am UTC

Gojoe wrote:
dbsmith wrote:
My main problem with Veidt's plan is that it wouldn't last. This might be too cynical even for Watchmen, but I can easily imagine the major powers seeking peace for a while... until no more alien entities approach... no discernible external enemy can be found or understood or fought against... I think eventually they'd just forget, and go back to their fight.


I kinda thought that Veidt, being the smartest man on the planet, had A) calculated that his plan would last a long long time or B) had plans to make the peace last.


Do you think he would care about the state of the world past his life time?

Yes. Otherwise why would he bother?
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Maseiken » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:38 am UTC

Yeah, if that were the extent of Veidt's plans, he simply wouldn't be Veidt. There's no point in being someone that precise, accurate and well... Perfect, and then missing a decimal point in your plans...

Then again, he did miss a fairly glaring one in his plan for Manhattan, I'm not sure what he expected to happen there...
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:04 am UTC

Well in the end, he did plan for John, and he did it well. In the end, john did what he needed to. Not tell everyone, and help keep it a secret...
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*Various positive comments on your masculinity
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby The Rumpled Academic » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:16 am UTC

Sticking Roschach on a deserted palace on Mars would have been a thousand times crueller than killing him. Rorschach's values are absolute, and if the choice is between compromising or death, he chooses death without hesitation. To be tucked away on Mars would be a complete emasculation; a proof that he just doesn't have the power to enforce right and wrong.
Manhattan and Veidt had already decided on the direction that world was going to take, and Roschach just didn't fit in that world. It was a mercy-killing.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby telkanuru » Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:04 am UTC

Maseiken wrote:Then again, he did miss a fairly glaring one in his plan for Manhattan, I'm not sure what he expected to happen there...


He expected Manhattan to be the purely rational computer he is. As soon as he explained his idea, it was all over.

As for R, I don't like the way the OP's question was framed. It's not that he deserves or does not deserve anything, it's that he must die for the work to make sense. In Tom Stoppard's masterpiece Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead, there is the following exchange-
Player: Events must play themselves out to aesthetic, moral and logical conclusion.
Guildenstern: And what's that, in this case?
Player: It never varies – we aim at the point where everyone who is marked for death dies.


I think that sums it up fairly well.

If, BTW, you've never read R&G are Dead, you really, really should.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:27 am UTC

Well, I guess I am dead. But I will see if my library has it...
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Though in this fora I serenade you
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*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Maseiken » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:19 am UTC

telkanuru wrote:
Maseiken wrote:Then again, he did miss a fairly glaring one in his plan for Manhattan, I'm not sure what he expected to happen there...


He expected Manhattan to be the purely rational computer he is. As soon as he explained his idea, it was all over.

As for R, I don't like the way the OP's question was framed. It's not that he deserves or does not deserve anything, it's that he must die for the work to make sense. In Tom Stoppard's masterpiece Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead, there is the following exchange-
Player: Events must play themselves out to aesthetic, moral and logical conclusion.
Guildenstern: And what's that, in this case?
Player: It never varies – we aim at the point where everyone who is marked for death dies.


I think that sums it up fairly well.

If, BTW, you've never read R&G are Dead, you really, really should.

I was more referring to they way he tried to "Kill" him, I guess there's not really anything else you could expect to work against Manhattan, but... you wouldn't expect THAT to work either. As Manhattan says, the FIRST thing he learned was to reassemble his separated particles.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:21 am UTC

Yes, I know this is the comicbook part but.. Oh me yarm Oh me yarm Oh me yarm http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/watchmen/trailer
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
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Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Maseiken » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:16 am UTC

HMMMMMMMMMM

Mixed feelings here,
Manhattan looks pretty darn cool, and fairly loyal to the text, as do Ozymandias and The Comedian.

So it's a shame what seems to have happened to the Main characters.
Why do they look so cool? The whole point is that they are not cool! Rorsharch is disappointed in them for having given up the Hero-ing game, so why do they look so badass?

Rorsharch is a bit too cool for my tastes as well since he should be more disturbing than anything else. Maybe I'm just scared after V for Vendetta though...
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:31 am UTC

I think that this is an amazing looking trailer. It seems dark enough. And I am very pleased with Dr Man. His slightly blank stare the entire time... so good. My only worry is that they turn this into a love story with him...
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jesse » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:05 pm UTC

I fail to see why you're worried. This is Zack Snyder directing. It'll be spot on.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:25 pm UTC

True, and 300 was awesome.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby telkanuru » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:07 pm UTC

The 300 had all the depth of a puddle in the middle of the Sahara.

The Watchmen is considerably different. I'm hopeful, but after seeing what they did to the League and V for Vendetta (which was a fine movie, but at best tangentially related to the book), I'm withholding my fanboy geek-out for the moment.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jessica » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:17 pm UTC

As I was telling my friends, it looks really pretty. It'll probably be a good movie.
Whether it's true to the book? Well, no movie is 100% true to the source material. It's an adaptation afterall. It'll probably be entertaining. It may even be good. I expect to enjoy it if only for the prettiness.
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Gojoe » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:42 pm UTC

The unfortunate thing with me, is no matter how crappy the movie is. I WILL see it. They will get my money, then because everyone I know, know I love the comic, someone WILL buy the DVD for me sometime... So even if I hate the movie they will get my money... sigh
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby cephalopod9 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:36 am UTC

Maseiken wrote:So it's a shame what seems to have happened to the Main characters.
Why do they look so cool? The whole point is that they are not cool! Rorsharch is disappointed in them for having given up the Hero-ing game, so why do they look so badass?
Probably because the narrative spans many decades and includes the times they were in the hero game and appropriately badass. There was a lot of jumping around and not a lot of chronological order.

(Also, not to complain, but there is a thread for discussion of the movie. )

Maseiken wrote:I was more referring to they way he tried to "Kill" him, I guess there's not really anything else you could expect to work against Manhattan, but... you wouldn't expect THAT to work either. As Manhattan says, the FIRST thing he learned was to reassemble his separated particles.
Admittedly, it seemed successful in "blinding" Manhattan if nothing else. I'll have to reread to check if that was forseeable...
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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:56 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:I fail to see why you're worried. This is Zack Snyder directing. It'll be spot on.

Actually that is exactly why I am worried.

The trailer only makes me moreso.

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Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jesse » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

Seems to me he managed to accurately portray the 300 graphic novel onto screen, I can't imagine why he wouldn't do the same to Watchmen.


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