Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

For those sublime unions of literature and art.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
telkanuru
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:39 am UTC
Location: Boston MA
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby telkanuru » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:01 pm UTC

Because as I said, the Watchmen is so much more complex in terms of character development and story arc.
Life in a box is better than no life at all, I expect. You'd have a chance, at least. You could lie there thinking, "Well. At least I'm not dead."
-R&G are Dead

User avatar
Endless Mike
Posts: 3204
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:04 pm UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:21 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:Seems to me he managed to accurately portray the 300 graphic novel onto screen, I can't imagine why he wouldn't do the same to Watchmen.

He got the look and the style, but I think he missed a lot of subtlety. The "THIS IS SPARTAAAAAAA!" bit was much calmer in the comic. Plus, he added all the weird monsters and the stuff with Leonidis's wife that weren't there. The simple fact is that Watchmen is all about the subtlety, and the trailer has really just confirmed to me that he's going for the flash and cool, which Watchmen is not.

And I say this as someone who loved the hell out of the 300 movie.

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jessica » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:21 pm UTC

True. 300 is pretty light. In fact, he had to add to the movie to make it a regular 2 hour movie.

Watchmen is very dense. Alan Moore intentionally added elements to the Watchmen to make it hard to transition to screen. He was attempting to make something which used the medium to it's fullest and make something that couldn't really be done in other mediums. Not that it's impossible, just difficult.
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jesse » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:42 pm UTC

I guess maybe it's because I don't expect to see the graphic novel accuratey portrayed on film. It's not possible. But he can definitely use the basis of the comic to tell a story. But the fact that it won't be the same story isn't neccessarily a bad thing. I think maybe I'd like to see a film that copies Moore's style. That uses all the trick of film that can't be translated into a different media.

I remain hopeful that we will get a good film. Then I'll have a good film and a good book.

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jessica » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:14 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:I think maybe I'd like to see a film that copies Moore's style. That uses all the trick of film that can't be translated into a different media.

That would really be awesome, actually. I don't think the director could pull that off. whatever his name is, is alright at directing, but to pull off what you're asking for would require a phenominal director, a phenominal writer and awesome actors.
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jesse » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:24 am UTC

I think it comes down to how much respect you have for Zack Snyder. I really do trust him to turn out a film I'm going to enjoy. In the end, this movie does nothing to the comic. We'll still have that once the movie's done, and that's great. If the film also turns out to be great, then we have a film and a comic. If not, we still have the same comic we started with.

User avatar
ishikiri
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:04 am UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby ishikiri » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:15 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:
Jesse wrote:I think maybe I'd like to see a film that copies Moore's style. That uses all the trick of film that can't be translated into a different media.

That would really be awesome, actually. I don't think the director could pull that off. whatever his name is, is alright at directing, but to pull off what you're asking for would require a phenominal director, a phenominal writer and awesome actors.

Shall we just get the Batman team to remake Watchmen then?
clintonius wrote:The "thwak thwak thwak" in this movie makes me think they cranked up a powerpoint slideshow of angry pictures set to the soundtrack of a furious masturbator.

User avatar
Jessica
Jessica, you're a ...
Posts: 8337
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Soviet Canuckistan

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jessica » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:59 pm UTC

One's already dead.
doogly wrote:On a scale of Mr Rogers to Fascism, how mean do you think we're being?
Belial wrote:My goal is to be the best brain infection any of you have ever had.

User avatar
4=5
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:02 am UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby 4=5 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:28 am UTC

A friend had the first book of watchmen so I tried to start reading it before I had to go home. I couldn't continue the color combinations burned, there were no restful frames that I could see anywhere. (I don't normally read comic books but I noticed a similar problem with what I've seen over people shoulders.).

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26202
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:33 pm UTC

Restful frames?
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
4=5
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:02 am UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby 4=5 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:03 am UTC

you know you look at it and think "that's kinda pretty, I like it for more than it's storytelling value"

although the more I think about it my sample size was way too small.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jesse » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:39 am UTC

That was kind of the point.

User avatar
Maseiken
The Candylawyer
Posts: 2827
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:13 am UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Maseiken » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:54 am UTC

Restful frames does not equal good writer. or, indeed good artist.
It's a good indication, but, especially in the case of Watchmen, a lack thereof can easily be an artistic judgement.

If you can't relax while reading Watchmen, it's probably intended that you shouldn't.

I invoke every english teacher I've had since Year 8.
When it comes to creative art, nothing is an accident. Ever.
And even if something is, it serves you better in an analysis to assume it isn't.
"GRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOWR!!!!"
(Translation: "Objection!")

Maseiken had the ball at the top of the key...

User avatar
Midnight
Posts: 2170
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:53 am UTC
Location: Twixt hither and thither. Ergo, Jupiter.

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Midnight » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:00 pm UTC

you know I feel bad for manhattan. he spoke of how "you being the world's smartest human to me? that's like the world's smartest ant to a human"

But I have a feeling that the world's smartest ant couldn't convince me that I give people cancer.
uhhhh fuck.

User avatar
Maseiken
The Candylawyer
Posts: 2827
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:13 am UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Maseiken » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:24 am UTC

Midnight wrote:you know I feel bad for manhattan. he spoke of how "you being the world's smartest human to me? that's like the world's smartest ant to a human"

But I have a feeling that the world's smartest ant couldn't convince me that I give people cancer.

Ants can be pretty clever...
Look into their beady little antennae, and you will see the cold, dead antennae... Of a Killer!
"GRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOWR!!!!"
(Translation: "Objection!")

Maseiken had the ball at the top of the key...

User avatar
Endless Mike
Posts: 3204
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:04 pm UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:42 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:you know I feel bad for manhattan. he spoke of how "you being the world's smartest human to me? that's like the world's smartest ant to a human"

But I have a feeling that the world's smartest ant couldn't convince me that I give people cancer.

Kepe in mind, everything Manhatten did, he KNEW he would do, and did it because it's what he knew was supposed to happen.

cyberthor
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:48 pm UTC

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby cyberthor » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

the ending felt satisfying leaving it open at the end with rorschach's journal. so i guessed that in the end ror got what he wanted. to let the truth be told about veidt.

User avatar
Ghandi 2
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 am UTC
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Ghandi 2 » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:16 am UTC

So the universal consensus is that the New Frontiersman does not spoil Veidt's plan and this resulted in the reignition of nuclear war?

Because while it is a bit implausible that anyone would take Rorshach seriously, the truth usually comes out eventually, and to me, blood flowing down the Doomsday Clock at midnight is pretty damn clear.

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby EvanED » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:24 pm UTC

Ghandi 2 wrote:Because while it is a bit implausible that anyone would take Rorshach seriously, the truth usually comes out eventually, and to me, blood flowing down the Doomsday Clock at midnight is pretty damn clear.
I'm not exactly one to go to for symbolism, but it could just refer to the people killed by Adrian's monster thing.

User avatar
Ghandi 2
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 am UTC
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Ghandi 2 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:21 am UTC

EvanED wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:Because while it is a bit implausible that anyone would take Rorshach seriously, the truth usually comes out eventually, and to me, blood flowing down the Doomsday Clock at midnight is pretty damn clear.
I'm not exactly one to go to for symbolism, but it could just refer to the people killed by Adrian's monster thing.

It could be that, and if the clock were in New York isntead of Chicago it could even have been literal. But the clock was also at 12, that has to mean something beyond a nihilistic expression of "We are all going to die, eventually".

User avatar
scowdich
The Hedgehog
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 4:55 am UTC
Location: University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign)
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby scowdich » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:50 am UTC

Uh, the clock is in New York. The beginning of the last chapter is a pull away from the clock, showing people sprawled all over it. The clock as header for the other chapters is just wicked-awesome foreshadowing and tension-building.

User avatar
Ghandi 2
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 am UTC
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Ghandi 2 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:47 am UTC

scowdich wrote:Uh, the clock is in New York. The beginning of the last chapter is a pull away from the clock, showing people sprawled all over it. The clock as header for the other chapters is just wicked-awesome foreshadowing and tension-building.

Oh, Wiki told me it's in Chicago. Damn it!

But even still, it's a midnight, shouldn't that mean something?

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:32 am UTC
Location: UKvia

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Macbi » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:40 am UTC

Ghandi 2 wrote:
scowdich wrote:Uh, the clock is in New York. The beginning of the last chapter is a pull away from the clock, showing people sprawled all over it. The clock as header for the other chapters is just wicked-awesome foreshadowing and tension-building.

Oh, Wiki told me it's in Chicago. Damn it!

But even still, it's a midnight, shouldn't that mean something?

Means the book's finished? Where were you expecting it to stop?
    Indigo is a lie.
    Which idiot decided that websites can't go within 4cm of the edge of the screen?
    There should be a null word, for the question "Is anybody there?" and to see if microphones are on.

Jack Saladin
X is kiss
Posts: 4445
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am UTC
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jack Saladin » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:01 am UTC

I thought the hand reaching towards the truth together with the clock was a pretty no-questions ending, myself. I'm surprised people thought otherwise.

User avatar
Ati
Posts: 643
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:34 pm UTC
Location: I'll give you a hint: it's dry, and slightly radioactive.
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Ati » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:33 pm UTC

Just finished reading it. Fantastic writing. I enjoyed it immensely. I think the ending was supposed to leave it ambiguous (the ironic 'I leave it entirely in your hands' comment). I'm hopeful about the movie, but all the same I can see it being awful.
I can kill you with my brain.

Image

User avatar
Sir_Elderberry
Posts: 4206
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:50 pm UTC
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:13 pm UTC

Just read this and I approve. So much. As for the ending, I like to think the world doesn't nuke itself. Perhaps because I'm feeling optimistic, but the only way Veidt's peace breaks down (well, the only way his plan fails--the peace could fall apart independent of his efforts) is if R's journal is published (unlikely), believed (even more unlikely), his allegations against Veidt are investigated (something Veidt would fight) and it comes up that the alien was fake. In fact, even then, the harsh standoff is defused. The Cold War might resume, but not at the level it was pre-Veidt.
http://www.geekyhumanist.blogspot.com -- Science and the Concerned Voter
Belial wrote:You are the coolest guy that ever cooled.

I reiterate. Coolest. Guy.

Well. You heard him.

User avatar
Ghandi 2
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 am UTC
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Ghandi 2 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:03 am UTC

Macbi wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:
scowdich wrote:Uh, the clock is in New York. The beginning of the last chapter is a pull away from the clock, showing people sprawled all over it. The clock as header for the other chapters is just wicked-awesome foreshadowing and tension-building.

Oh, Wiki told me it's in Chicago. Damn it!

But even still, it's a midnight, shouldn't that mean something?

Means the book's finished? Where were you expecting it to stop?

If it had stopped at 1 minute to midnight, the ending would be clear: nuclear war has been averted for now, at a terrible cost. Having the clock at midnight strongly implies nuclear war. Is it referring to nuclear war long in the future?

Jack Saladin
X is kiss
Posts: 4445
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am UTC
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jack Saladin » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:01 am UTC

... Haven't you people heard of the Doomsday Clock? Midnight = end of the world.

Means the book's finished? Where were you expecting it to stop?

See, that's not how it works. I guess the Doomsday Clock concept is slightly confusing because you expect a clock to only go forwards, but they don't just move it forward a minute a day or something. You want the hand as far away from midnight as possible. It's not a countdown.

Unless we now have to have an argument over whether or not is is a Doomsday Clock. As opposed to, uhh, just some random regular clock that's bizarrely slow. In which case; friggin' sigh.

User avatar
Macbi
Posts: 941
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:32 am UTC
Location: UKvia

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Macbi » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:... Haven't you people heard of the Doomsday Clock? Midnight = end of the world.

Means the book's finished? Where were you expecting it to stop?

See, that's not how it works. I guess the Doomsday Clock concept is slightly confusing because you expect a clock to only go forwards, but they don't just move it forward a minute a day or something. You want the hand as far away from midnight as possible. It's not a countdown.

Unless we now have to have an argument over whether or not is is a Doomsday Clock. As opposed to, uhh, just some random regular clock that's bizarrely slow. In which case; friggin' sigh.

I know about the Doomsday clock, I just don't think that it reaching midnight necessarily represents nuclear apocalypse in this context. I think the blood represents the blood of those who died in New York, since the blood first reaches the clock at the end of Chapter XI, when the Alien hits New York, and the beginning of Chapter XII has an actual clock covered in their actual blood. (What time is it showing? In the first frame it's 11:59, but is it 12:00 in the second frame, or are we just more zoomed out? Also Veidt's clocks happily carry on ticking right past midnight in this chapter, does that mean anything?) If the clock was a Doomsday clock for the Watchmen world, would it not have gone backward at the end of Chapters XI and XII? Doesn't a time of midnight signify that we're actually in apocalypse, since they aren't I think that this isn't the right interpretation. The last page is deliberately ambiguous and, if the clock was as unambiguous as you say, why bother making the last page like this?
    Indigo is a lie.
    Which idiot decided that websites can't go within 4cm of the edge of the screen?
    There should be a null word, for the question "Is anybody there?" and to see if microphones are on.

Jack Saladin
X is kiss
Posts: 4445
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am UTC
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Jack Saladin » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:31 am UTC

... I didn't think the last page was ambiguous. I thought it quite clearly showed what was going to happen.

Has Moore ever commented on this?

EvanED
Posts: 4331
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:28 am UTC
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby EvanED » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:07 am UTC

scowdich wrote:UThe clock as header for the other chapters is just wicked-awesome foreshadowing and tension-building.
I intended to read Watchmen over the course of a few days, an hour or maybe two a day. (I don't have a *lot* of free time, and it's not totally malleable.)

The progression of the chapter-starting doomsday clock was basically the thing that kept me reading so I did it basically in two settings.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Quixotess » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:50 am UTC

Have just finished Watchmen for the first time. Had no idea what it was about--my reason for reading it was basically "this seems to be essential for my geek cred." So I wasn't expecting something so disturbing. Um...wow. I am disturbed. Not quite sure I understand why it's considered the greatest graphic novel of all time, unless it has to do with the way it basically slaps the superhero medium in the face. Then again, I didn't even notice the clocks opening the chapters until I read this thread, so probably I am missing some sort of technical or thematic brilliance.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
Ghandi 2
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:40 am UTC
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Ghandi 2 » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:29 am UTC

Yes, if you didn't notice the progressing clocks you missed a lot. Some people think Watchmen is overrated because it was the first serious graphic novel for adults, and that may be true. I'm not actually into graphic novels very much, so I don't care. I like Watchmen, and that's enough.
Macbi wrote:
Jack Saladin wrote:... Haven't you people heard of the Doomsday Clock? Midnight = end of the world.

Means the book's finished? Where were you expecting it to stop?

See, that's not how it works. I guess the Doomsday Clock concept is slightly confusing because you expect a clock to only go forwards, but they don't just move it forward a minute a day or something. You want the hand as far away from midnight as possible. It's not a countdown.

Unless we now have to have an argument over whether or not is is a Doomsday Clock. As opposed to, uhh, just some random regular clock that's bizarrely slow. In which case; friggin' sigh.

I know about the Doomsday clock, I just don't think that it reaching midnight necessarily represents nuclear apocalypse in this context. I think the blood represents the blood of those who died in New York, since the blood first reaches the clock at the end of Chapter XI, when the Alien hits New York, and the beginning of Chapter XII has an actual clock covered in their actual blood. (What time is it showing? In the first frame it's 11:59, but is it 12:00 in the second frame, or are we just more zoomed out? Also Veidt's clocks happily carry on ticking right past midnight in this chapter, does that mean anything?) If the clock was a Doomsday clock for the Watchmen world, would it not have gone backward at the end of Chapters XI and XII? Doesn't a time of midnight signify that we're actually in apocalypse, since they aren't I think that this isn't the right interpretation. The last page is deliberately ambiguous and, if the clock was as unambiguous as you say, why bother making the last page like this?

Well presumably the clock is counting down towards the actual time of the apocalypse because it is the author's omniscient clock, so any apparent setbacks would be ignored because they are actually progressing events forward towards the inevitable.

Well it's obvious to me that is what his intention was, I know that it is intended to be ambigious, and maybe I'm wrong. Even if Rorchach's journal accomplished nothing and we killed ourselves through entirely unrelated means, the fact of our killing ourselves seems pretty clear. And even if he had left it at 1 minute till, I could still very easily argue that the clock only stopped at one minute because it had been nuked, so of course it couldn't make it all the way to midnight. So I don't have all the answers.

User avatar
Quixotess
No. Cookies.
Posts: 3243
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 7:26 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Quixotess » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:53 am UTC

Yeah, I tend to race through things. To clarify, it's not that I didn't like it. Just wasn't blown over. I think mostly the art didn't do anything for me.
Raise up the torch and light the way.

User avatar
JayDee
Posts: 3620
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:13 am UTC
Location: Most livable city in the world.
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby JayDee » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:32 am UTC

Quixotess wrote:Then again, I didn't even notice the clocks opening the chapters until I read this thread, so probably I am missing some sort of technical or thematic brilliance.

I was reading through Alan Moore interviews yesterday trying to find a comment on the ending, which I couldn't. He did say often enough that Watchmen was written to be read again. Deliberately putting things in to be noticed in the sixth re-read, kinda thing. I'm going to have to read it again soon, I think, and I suspect my opinion of it will increase greatly when I do.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:I believe that everything can and must be joked about.
Hawknc wrote:I like to think that he hasn't left, he's just finally completed his foe list.

User avatar
telkanuru
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:39 am UTC
Location: Boston MA
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby telkanuru » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:55 am UTC

The theme I appreciate the most is that nothing is ever over, especially Jon's last conversation with Veldt.

The symbolism of Rorschach finding the bloodied smiley face button at the beginning and the fat lacky's t-shirt gaining the exact same stain at the end is almost on the level of a Scarlet Letter style symbolism stick. As in, I'm going to beat you over the head with this so you know it's being symbolic. Then again, some people didn't get that Rorschach died, so I guess I expect too much?
Life in a box is better than no life at all, I expect. You'd have a chance, at least. You could lie there thinking, "Well. At least I'm not dead."
-R&G are Dead

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26202
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:27 pm UTC

Quixotess wrote:Have just finished Watchmen for the first time. Had no idea what it was about--my reason for reading it was basically "this seems to be essential for my geek cred." So I wasn't expecting something so disturbing. Um...wow. I am disturbed. Not quite sure I understand why it's considered the greatest graphic novel of all time, unless it has to do with the way it basically slaps the superhero medium in the face. Then again, I didn't even notice the clocks opening the chapters until I read this thread, so probably I am missing some sort of technical or thematic brilliance.

Moore has built a career on basically deconstructing everything he touches so you can see the individual washers and bolts yet doing it in a way that isn't a clinical dissection. So, yeah, part of it was a "Superheros grow up" kinda story.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7098
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:28 am UTC

I've just noticed something on a recent rereading:

Dr. Manhattan dies in an accident involving atomic theory (sins of the atom bomb), takes up the 'Jesus on the Cross' posture in the scene when he manifests in the cafeteria, and eventually ascends to Godhood.

Doctor Manhattan is Superscience Quantum Jesus. May or may not have died for your sins (has he been observed?).


Also:

Quixotess wrote:Have just finished Watchmen for the first time. Had no idea what it was about--my reason for reading it was basically "this seems to be essential for my geek cred." So I wasn't expecting something so disturbing. Um...wow. I am disturbed. Not quite sure I understand why it's considered the greatest graphic novel of all time, unless it has to do with the way it basically slaps the superhero medium in the face. Then again, I didn't even notice the clocks opening the chapters until I read this thread, so probably I am missing some sort of technical or thematic brilliance.


My spouse, who's not much into comics (though finds them curious and sometimes interesting) read it once and didn't find it all that remarkable. I've since encouraged her to give it another reading, and she's been going through it much more slowly--and finding a lot more interest in it. It really, really doesn't work if you just skim through it--it's a story that needs to be taken in several times, each time at a successively slower pace.

There is really some astoundingly brilliant, holy shit goddamn what the fuck writing in there. Also, I agree about the art--the style is pretty much why I didn't read it until much later in my life (that, and the plot sounded like a tired old comic book cliche).

User avatar
Mr. Galt
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:40 am UTC
Location: Utah

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby Mr. Galt » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:06 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I've just noticed something on a recent rereading:

Dr. Manhattan dies in an accident involving atomic theory (sins of the atom bomb), takes up the 'Jesus on the Cross' posture in the scene when he manifests in the cafeteria, and eventually ascends to Godhood.

Doctor Manhattan is Superscience Quantum Jesus. May or may not have died for your sins (has he been observed?).


Just to be clear.

His posture is clearly with hands and arms pointed downwards when he appears.
But when hes being vaporised he does sort of take that cross like pose.

Also:

Quixotess wrote:Have just finished Watchmen for the first time. Had no idea what it was about--my reason for reading it was basically "this seems to be essential for my geek cred." So I wasn't expecting something so disturbing. Um...wow. I am disturbed. Not quite sure I understand why it's considered the greatest graphic novel of all time, unless it has to do with the way it basically slaps the superhero medium in the face. Then again, I didn't even notice the clocks opening the chapters until I read this thread, so probably I am missing some sort of technical or thematic brilliance.


My spouse, who's not much into comics (though finds them curious and sometimes interesting) read it once and didn't find it all that remarkable. I've since encouraged her to give it another reading, and she's been going through it much more slowly--and finding a lot more interest in it. It really, really doesn't work if you just skim through it--it's a story that needs to be taken in several times, each time at a successively slower pace.

There is really some astoundingly brilliant, holy shit goddamn what the fuck writing in there. Also, I agree about the art--the style is pretty much why I didn't read it until much later in my life (that, and the plot sounded like a tired old comic book cliche).


I agree that it really requires more than one read through.
I didn't even understand why Rorshach went to the mens restroom while being rescued for the longest time.

Also, in regards to the ending.

I think it could either be directed literally to the reader, meaning that the "real" ending of the story is what we want it to be, since he largely left it open.

Sure thats cool and all, but It doesn't add up if you take the doomsday clock on the very last page as more than just filler art. I mean the whole story is about the humanity of superheros, including Veidt. Even he didn't expect Rorschach's journal. I imagine the final statement is that eventually humanity will be humanity's downfall. Even the superheros (who are clearly human, regardless) take part in this spiraling corruption of our own environment. Storywise I'd imagine that Rorshach's journal would get run in the papers, mostly ignored, but believed enough to throw off the balance of Veidt's plan. Like Jon said, Nothing ever ends.
I dunno, maybe I'm just messing it up.

I really want to know what Moore has to say on the subject as well.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7098
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Watchmen. Let us discuss. SPOILERS!

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:17 am UTC

Mr. Galt wrote:His posture is clearly with hands and arms pointed downwards when he appears. But when hes being vaporised he does sort of take that cross like pose.


Crap, what the hell? Why in the world did I imagine him taking up the Jesus pose?

Just a matter of selective memory, I guess.

Mr. Galt wrote:I really want to know what Moore has to say on the subject as well.


One theme that Alan Moore has used before is the idea that it's the reader's job to interpret; the writer merely supplies sufficient material. Stories like these are self-reflective--how you feel about it tells you (and us) more about yourself than the tale.

I've seen furious debates over whether Adrian or Rorschach was correct ("Veidt was Right!" -- "ADRIAN LIED, PEOPLE DIED!"), but ultimately, it doesn't matter. One of the great things about Dr. Manhattan's character is it allows us perspective; regardless of what happens, nothing will end. Humanity might reduce itself to a smoldering slag, but reality will go on.

The doomsday clock in the last frame is not quite pointing at 12. Has it been halted, or even slowed? It depends on your perspective.


Return to “Comics/Graphic Novels”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests