Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

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Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Ghandi 2 » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:31 am UTC

Just read this, and while I loved the art style and the comic as a whole, I have some quibbles with the text:

They made it impossible to discover who is Holiday, so while that provokes endless discussions, it also makes me wonder if they knew who Holiday is, since there are so many contradictory options.

The characters can't seem to decide whether or not it is Maroni or Falconi's men who are getting killed. Now maybe I was misunderstanding something, and there was a good reason for Maroni to think that Falconi was killing his own men (why?) and for Maroni to complain to his father that his men were getting killed because of Holiday (how?), among other things. More importantly, Maroni's father is shot by Holiday, yet Gordon, Dent, and Batman continue to say that only Falconi's men are being targetted.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Jack Saladin » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:58 am UTC

Yeah, it's an awesome book but the ending pissed me off somewhat. Like you said, instead of coming off like a pleasantly open-to-interpretation-and-dissection ending (which are, admittedly, really hard to do), it felt more like they couldn't think of a way to wrap it up and just copped out.

The sequel, Dark Victory had a few writing flaws that cripple it for me as well.
Spoiler:
First and foremost being that Batman does literally not one goddamn thing except punch people, even though he gets 85% of pagetime. He may as well not even be in it... In fact, that would make it significantly better.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:48 pm UTC

I think you're expecting too much from Jeph Loeb, honestly. Keep in mind, these are some of his *best* works.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Ghandi 2 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:05 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Yeah, it's an awesome book but the ending pissed me off somewhat. Like you said, instead of coming off like a pleasantly open-to-interpretation-and-dissection ending (which are, admittedly, really hard to do), it felt more like they couldn't think of a way to wrap it up and just copped out.

The sequel, Dark Victory had a few writing flaws that cripple it for me as well.
Spoiler:
First and foremost being that Batman does literally not one goddamn thing except punch people, even though he gets 85% of pagetime. He may as well not even be in it... In fact, that would make it significantly better.

So would that be a nay on reading Dark Victory as well? I only got Long Halloween because I heard really good things about it and I wanted more Batman than Killing Joke and Dark Knight Returns, I know almost nothing about comics in general.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Jack Saladin » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:58 am UTC

Honestly? Killing Joke and DKR are as good as Batman gets. Your Batman reading days have peaked.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:26 pm UTC

Killing Joke is really overrated. Even Alan Moore thinks it's his worst work. Not to say it's bad, because it's not.

You should check out Batman: Year One, the Black Glove (once it comes out collected), and *maybe* All-Star Batman and Robin, but I'm hesitant to really recommend that since it's a satire of Batman which isn't really immediately obvious. City of Crime is supposed to be good, too, although I haven't read it. AVOID Hush, War Games, and Knightfall.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Jesse » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:47 pm UTC

War Games is, right now, my favourite Batman series. And my name is orange so I win.

Also, I liked both Long Halloween and Dark Victory. Dark Victory especially because it finally made me care about Robin.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:27 pm UTC

I can believe that if you have only ever read War Games and War Crimes (which manages to be an even worse crossover).

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Ghandi 2 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:28 pm UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Honestly? Killing Joke and DKR are as good as Batman gets. Your Batman reading days have peaked.

Haha, I'm ok with that. I'm not really into comic books, I just wanted more Batman and Joker after TDK, and while I was reading comics I picked up Watchmen too since it's so famous.
Endless Mike wrote:Killing Joke is really overrated. Even Alan Moore thinks it's his worst work. Not to say it's bad, because it's not.

You should check out Batman: Year One, the Black Glove (once it comes out collected), and *maybe* All-Star Batman and Robin, but I'm hesitant to really recommend that since it's a satire of Batman which isn't really immediately obvious. City of Crime is supposed to be good, too, although I haven't read it. AVOID Hush, War Games, and Knightfall.

Meh, I think Moore is just being a misanthropic meanie face when he says that. Maybe it's overrated compared to other "great" graphic novels, but it's still very good. And I appreciate that it doesn't have the slightly annoying storytelling tricks like Watchmen (i.e. pirate comic narrating).

I can see why Year One was very important at the time and is still a good comic, but from flipping through it and Wikipedia, it's basically Batman Begins without Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow, and I already saw Batman Begins. So that would just be boring.

I hadn't heard of Black Glove before, but rebooting Batman sounds really lame, from what I've heard about Death of Superman and Crisis in Infinite Earths. Why should I want to read a superhero comic where the main character gets permanently put out of commission--until the inevitable reboot?

Yeah, from what I've seen, Hush and Knightfall look really terrible. So did No Man's Land, which made me sad because I saw the panels from the climax before seeing any of the rest of it, and those were awesome. I guess crossovers very rarely work well, which doesn't surprise me since they're basically admitting you don't have any original ideas left.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Jack Saladin » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:23 am UTC

Yeah, that's the thing about Year One... It was awesome at the time, but now, after we've all seen countless movies and animated series and what have you, it's a tired old story. So it comes off being generic, even though it was the first.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:29 pm UTC

Ghandi 2 wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:Killing Joke is really overrated. Even Alan Moore thinks it's his worst work. Not to say it's bad, because it's not.

Meh, I think Moore is just being a misanthropic meanie face when he says that. Maybe it's overrated compared to other "great" graphic novels, but it's still very good.

Well... Moore was trying to write a story in which the Joker was a sympathetic character. I think he did personally, but I'm not most people. Most people agree that he didn't succeed.
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:24 pm UTC

Errr...Black Glove (the storyline) doesn't put Batman out of commission... That's Batman R.I.P. which is currently running.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Jesse » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:48 pm UTC

And is currently so damn confusing that I don't know what the hell is going on.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Ghandi 2 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:03 am UTC

I think The Killing Joke partially succeeded in humanizing Joker, by giving him the touching backstory and his apparently geniune plea to Batman to understand and see the funny side. But I don't think Joker is a character who should be humanized, he succeeds by being completely inhuman. He is only frightening when he is doing things for apparently no reason that no human being should be able to do with a smile.
Endless Mike wrote:Errr...Black Glove (the storyline) doesn't put Batman out of commission... That's Batman R.I.P. which is currently running.

Oh, I just search Black Glove and that was what I got, because Black Glove is apparently in RIP?

While talking about Batman, I have a couple questions about The Dark Knight returns, which I just finished, and I don't want to make a new thread.

Maybe I'm missing some context here because I'm not into comics, but what did Batman mean when he said "You let them do it, Clark, I always knew you would" when Superman diverts the nuke? For that matter, why does Batman hate Superman so much, yet they also appear to be friends? I'm not sure what Miller wants me to think of either of them.

Russia used their super nuke just because they knew it would only affect the US and they are bastards, right?

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:04 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:And is currently so damn confusing that I don't know what the hell is going on.

Well, its threads run to the beginning of Morrison's run, plus all sorts of silver age stuff. Yeah, it's confusing, but it's really supposed to be.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:29 pm UTC

Ghandi 2 wrote:Maybe I'm missing some context here because I'm not into comics, but what did Batman mean when he said "You let them do it, Clark, I always knew you would" when Superman diverts the nuke? For that matter, why does Batman hate Superman so much, yet they also appear to be friends? I'm not sure what Miller wants me to think of either of them.


If I'm remembering correctly, he's talking about how Clark let the government make him invisible and put him on a chain. Because he's such a law-abiding citizen, if a law was passed stating that Superman must become the Government's lackey, he'd follow it - and he did.

As for their relationship... They both have the same goal, a world without crime. It's just that Superman seems to think that through proper application of law and order, that world can come to pass while Batman thinks that the laws now aren't working, so why even bother with them - just kick the asses of those that need it and move on, more or less.

The Dark Knight Returns is basically a giant "You can't trust the govn'ment!" book. Anti-authoritarian and all that. Which makes DK2 all the more hilarious (The NEW govn'ment knows best!)
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Jack Saladin » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:17 pm UTC

We have a "never talk about DKR2, ever" policy in this forum. I should put that in the rules.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:04 am UTC

Mm.. Good idea.
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Ghandi 2 » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:15 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Ghandi 2 wrote:Maybe I'm missing some context here because I'm not into comics, but what did Batman mean when he said "You let them do it, Clark, I always knew you would" when Superman diverts the nuke? For that matter, why does Batman hate Superman so much, yet they also appear to be friends? I'm not sure what Miller wants me to think of either of them.


If I'm remembering correctly, he's talking about how Clark let the government make him invisible and put him on a chain. Because he's such a law-abiding citizen, if a law was passed stating that Superman must become the Government's lackey, he'd follow it - and he did.

As for their relationship... They both have the same goal, a world without crime. It's just that Superman seems to think that through proper application of law and order, that world can come to pass while Batman thinks that the laws now aren't working, so why even bother with them - just kick the asses of those that need it and move on, more or less.

The Dark Knight Returns is basically a giant "You can't trust the govn'ment!" book. Anti-authoritarian and all that. Which makes DK2 all the more hilarious (The NEW govn'ment knows best!)

So he was angry that Superman was trying to stop the nuke because that made him a pawn of the government? I got him being angry about being a government pawn, but Superman would have tried to stop the nuke anyway, so I don't really understand that.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:04 pm UTC

In re-reading the whole thing, Bruce is pissed that Clark let them nuke each other. That he let it go on that long, that he didn't step in and basically force them to act like civilized human beings. That he let them develop weapons that would cause electromagnetic pulses that knock everything down but yet still leave buildings standing. That he'd let them nearly kill him.

Basically, Batman kicks the heads of those in Gotham who aren't acting right. Batman expected Superman to kick the heads of those in the Governments of the World who weren't acting right - ie All of them.
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Ghandi 2 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:46 am UTC

Oh yeah, that makes sense. I guess I should have seen that, but the juxtaposition of that with his actual heroic attempt to stop it confused me.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby DarkKnightJared » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:21 pm UTC

Ghandi 2 wrote:Just read this, and while I loved the art style and the comic as a whole, I have some quibbles with the text:

They made it impossible to discover who is Holiday, so while that provokes endless discussions, it also makes me wonder if they knew who Holiday is, since there are so many contradictory options.


Yeah, and the last possible suspect they show really shows this.

Spoiler:
So, let me get this straight--Gilda was able to be lucid enough to pull the IV out of her without alerting the hospital, sneak away from her husband, the nurses and the guards to get out of the hospital, go to get the materials to be "Holiday," sneak into the Irish's place to kill them all, sneak back into the hospital, and put everything back in order before her husband, the nurses, or the guards notice?

Yeah. Very fucking unlikely.

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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Bondidude » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:33 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:AVOID Hush, War Games, and Knightfall.


Not true at all.

Hush is an excellent series, I personally loved it. No one writes good, old detective Batman stories like Loeb does. I don't understand the hate that people have for him, I actually really enjoy his work. Him with Tim Sale is such an awesome combination, even though it was Jim Lee who illustrated Hush. No one can draw Batman like Sale does, his art is high on contrast, which I think is excellent for the Batman series. It probably has a lot to do with him being color blind also, his art is drawn to be black,white and grays, so it's high on contrast.

War Games was okay, but not great. Certainly not one I'd read again or have high on my list of priorities.

I just read Year One again a few nights ago, I couldn't put it down I was so enthralled by the story. It's not so much the story of just Batman's start as also the start of Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent. Mainly it's a book about how both Gordon and Batman arrived in Gotham as they were needed the most and started to help clean up some of the corruption and how Gordon almost got up in it himself. Heavy inspiration taken from this book for Batman Begins.

I need to re-read the Long Halloween, it's been a while.
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Nyarlathotep » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:38 pm UTC

It is impossible to figure out who Holiday is, but I thought part of the idea was that... well...

Spoiler:
Was that there really was more than one holiday killer? I don't know if ALL of them took part, but I can see it being Falcone starting it, then Glinda picking it up in an effort to alleviate her husband's workload (which might also explain the lone Maroni death, among others), with both of them working simultaneously. And then if you really want to get complicated, Harvey snaps and takes care of one or two himself.
It's still really hard to work, though, since if they were all working separately it doesn't explain how there are not multiple deaths on each holiday. >.< That, and it's entirely possible that Falcone was just crazy, who the hell knows.


Art was nice though and I liked Harvey's characterization there.
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby Bondidude » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:03 pm UTC

Nyarlathotep wrote:It is impossible to figure out who Holiday is, but I thought part of the idea was that... well...

Spoiler:
Was that there really was more than one holiday killer? I don't know if ALL of them took part, but I can see it being Falcone starting it, then Glinda picking it up in an effort to alleviate her husband's workload (which might also explain the lone Maroni death, among others), with both of them working simultaneously. And then if you really want to get complicated, Harvey snaps and takes care of one or two himself.
It's still really hard to work, though, since if they were all working separately it doesn't explain how there are not multiple deaths on each holiday. >.< That, and it's entirely possible that Falcone was just crazy, who the hell knows.


Art was nice though and I liked Harvey's characterization there.


This is how I always saw it.

Spoiler:
That there wasn't just one killer. It was actually several people, especially since there was strong evidence at the end that Harvey and/or his wife had some hand in it at the end.

Then Falcone takes the fall at the end to protect his family and in last attempt to impress his father.
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Re: Batman: The Long Halloween *SPOILERS*

Postby DarkKnightJared » Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

Bondidude wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:AVOID Hush, War Games, and Knightfall.


Not true at all.

Hush is an excellent series, I personally loved it. No one writes good, old detective Batman stories like Loeb does. I don't understand the hate that people have for him, I actually really enjoy his work. Him with Tim Sale is such an awesome combination, even though it was Jim Lee who illustrated Hush. No one can draw Batman like Sale does, his art is high on contrast, which I think is excellent for the Batman series. It probably has a lot to do with him being color blind also, his art is drawn to be black,white and grays, so it's high on contrast.

War Games was okay, but not great. Certainly not one I'd read again or have high on my list of priorities.

I just read Year One again a few nights ago, I couldn't put it down I was so enthralled by the story. It's not so much the story of just Batman's start as also the start of Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent. Mainly it's a book about how both Gordon and Batman arrived in Gotham as they were needed the most and started to help clean up some of the corruption and how Gordon almost got up in it himself. Heavy inspiration taken from this book for Batman Begins.

I need to re-read the Long Halloween, it's been a while.


Hush I liked--it definately wasn't the best of Loeb's mystery stories, but it was a good tale of Batman himself as related to his allies, enemies, and lovers.

War Games, I would at least say to rent it out of a library. War Crimes on the other hand, should either be avoided like the fucking plague or burned.


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