Crossover Mafia | N4 | 10/19

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:15 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Oh yeah your policy lynching. Really easy excuse not to dig into intent and motives.
Yes, that's exactly why I've re-read your content multiple times and found new connections that you are still unwilling to respond to despite prod.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Interesting that you're willing to psychoanalyze pretty much every player I've pushed:
Is this sarcasm? I haven't psychoanalysed you at all. I'm trying to point out flaws in your thought-process.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Yet for me, you're not willing to actually take into account my intent and personality.
Untrue. Also my case on you depends on actual content.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I've been your target since very early day 1 and you are continuously making up new reasons to justify that suspicion.
Untrue, see above. I started finding you scummy again only at the end of D1 because of your connection to moody.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I've even provided you with my past games to be able to nullify your concerns.
See above.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:And if you really believed in this policy, Madge would be in your lynch list too, as she has shown untrustworthy twice now.
Madge made a mistake (or two) and I have shown that this has happened before. You outright lied. If you don't see the difference then there's nothing to talk about. Also really weak try to shift the blame.

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bessie
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:32 pm UTC

I’m going to use the incomplete notes I made last night and skim other content to make some reads, just to get something out there. Then I’ll continue to revise as I can.

#HBC | Red Ryu
Quick impression is that D2 content was much improved over D1 content. Hasn’t posted content since Friday, but is supposed to have something today. Will come back to him after he posts.

#HBC | Zyth
Quick impression is that some disagreements with others may be due to play style differences. Zyth should be/is one of my priorities to read in depth today. I have in my notes that I totally agree with this post:
#HBC | Zyth wrote: You shouldn't expect this just because it is how you chose to spend your time. I wanted a ****ing break during the Night. I've already spent an an unhealthy amount of time on this game. And I had no idea what to expect coming into the day. I wasn't going to spend my time typing up an essay, only for it to be rendered useless due to night kills.

Zyth’s had so much content I really want to comment on something. Looking at his last post only, I agree with this:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:And if you really believed in this policy, Madge would be in your lynch list too, as she has shown untrustworthy twice now. Yet you're willing to dig into every single one of her past games and actually read her from her mindset.
I see where Sabrar was coming from with his early support for Madge, but I agree he really needs to take another look at her D2 content. Her errors were within her meta, but they were important in that they affected the game strategy.

jimbobmacdoodle
jimbob’s posted a lot of content on D2. I’ve tried to keep up with it and comment. Without rereading his posts or mine, I can’t immediately recall anything that really stands out to me. I’m still very suspicious of plytho’s defense of jimbob on D1, and it affects my read. My gut read would be that plytho is somehow tied to jimbob , but the opposite is not necessarily true. Could be plytho has a guardian angel type role. I would rather lynch plytho than jimbob.

LaserGuy
I believe he is town. Unfortunately he might also die tonight. I will reread him if I can.

Madge
Right from the start Madge gives excuses for not scum hunting. She is suspicious for changing her claims. D1 for the late treestump/hammer revelation. D2 for the Amrock voting thing. She lets Sabrar defend her (and to a lesser extent BoomFrog), and perhaps because of this she is now too secure in believing she is safe from the lynch. She is at least using it as an opportunity to get away without scumhunting, because she believes Sabrar will not allow her to be lynched.

mpolo
Improved D2. Not on my lynch list.

plytho
I think I covered him elsewhere. :P
Current plytho theory: He is independent with a goal. Fishes for setup and role information.

Sabrar
I feel he is over defending Madge. Though it may have started because he was prodded to by BoomFrog here.
BoomFrog wrote: This is very passive. I expect your defense of Madge to be stronger.

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: I don't know her scum-meta, I've played only 1 game with her when she was Mafia (Wheel of Time 1), where I didn't get any serious pings from her and had to rely purely on PoE. That said if she can fake this post as scum then my hat's off to her. Overall her interaction with plytho feels genuine and I don't see any obvious links to other players. Most likely Town.
I’m never sure if I’m being complimented or dissed by you. Maybe it’s both at the same time. Anyway I’m leaning town on Sabrar.

Spak
The bulk of his content has been this weekend. Since he is a candidate for my bottom four, I really need to do a read of his content and not just an impression post from a skim. Will come back to him.

Ninja’d by many, and I need to go out for a couple hours.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:52 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:Bessie I want you to realize that plytho constantly asking you to repeat things instead of letting you get on with things is really shady, and actually VOTE HIM.
I seem to be catching a lot of guff for not wanting to get lynched, but look at it this way. When nearly everyone is pushing you, there's certainly scum pushing you. So I'm trying to not give scum the gratification of lynching me here.


She already is voting him and has been for awhile.

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plytho
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:56 pm UTC

Boomfrog: This is my previous read on BoomFrog, he has since answered my concerns to my satisfaction so he keeps his townie points.

I don’t see any scumminess in his following posts. It’s interesting that he has a strong town read on both Gamma and Zen.

BoomFrog wrote:5) It's all about the wagon-omics. The Moody lynch was too easy. Way too many people were on bored way to easily. But then Moody just gave up and started being blatantly scummy. I think by the time I voted he was already being bussed. Hopefully I'll have time to actually analyse the wagon this day phase, although I was expecting more flips to work with.
Wasn’t that very early? When you voted only Sabrar was voting moody. Or do you mean your final vote?

Jimbobmacdoodle: as I said before, he gets townie points both for being the counter wagon to scum and for being on the moody wagon before there was a jimbob wagon. I like a lot of jimbob’s reasoning and find myself agreeing with most of it. I don’t see him saying or doing anything scummy.

Ugh, I’m running out of time here.

FrozenFlame: Doesn’t have as many posts as I thought. Hasn’t been around for 2 days. This post is great. Despite him being on the jimbob wagon I feel good about Frozen.

Sorry, those last three were too short. I don’t feel like lynching them today.

Town to scum:
Plytho
Sabrar
Evil George washington
Jimbobmacdoodle
LaserGuy
BoomFrog
FrozenFlame
Red Ryu
Madge (indie?)
mpolo
Bessie
Zen
Spak
Gamma Emerald

Lurkers:
town
Peaceful Whale
Heuristically_alone
Znirk
scum

Dead by judgement:
Amrock (indie)
he him his

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:01 pm UTC

bessie wrote:I’m never sure if I’m being complimented or dissed by you.
It is once again a compliment. You're too paranoid for your own good. :D

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plytho
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:08 pm UTC

I won't have time for any more analysis D2. And I won't be around the last 6 hours before deadline. I will be able to answer questions and maybe spot scum slips but nothing more intensive than that.

I prepared my answers to bessie and will post them after she finishes her reads.
he him his

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:10 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm surprised Sabrar didn't think about this. Also, isn't lyncher usually a win-condition, not an ability? Lazy-Sabrar? Hmmm...
Lol. I wanted to see if Gamma would follow up his claim with a more ludicrous one. Do you really think I wouldn't immediately realize the consequences of such a role?
Under normal circumstances, I would assume you would, but if you're being lazy, who knows? (Aside - I'm struggling to keep track of all the half-truths/questions laid as traps etc that keep flying around!)

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Everyone - We have less than 36 hours to deadline, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement on the wagons currently. I'd like everyone not voting for Gamma, to either propose a counter wagon, and try to drum up support for it, based on the top 4 picks listed, or to vote for Gamma.
Disagree, this could easily lead to an early hammer.
Fair point. Adjusting - vote for Gamma state your intention to vote for Gamma.

Old questions/points for Gamma to follow shortly, so that he can respond as requested. Other comments and answers to his post below:
Gamma Emerald wrote:What reason would there be for me to be bussed?
I don't think you are being bussed necessarily, but if you are, an obvious reason would be that you are being pushed by too big a group of townies to make it feasible to swing it around, so are doing what they can to avoid attention, either by voting you, or scattering*.
Gamma Emerald wrote:If I'm not being bussed where's the counter-movement?
Plytho? Spak? Depends on how many scum buddies you have. Assuming two teams of three, and that you are buddies with moody, you only have one team-mate.
Gamma Emerald wrote:Don't you think a scumteam trying to push an alternative would try to double down on a single target?
See my previous answers.
Gamma Emerald wrote:And lastly, for people who would try to argue "his buddies are MIA!", do you really think I would take that lying down, or do you think I would have done something about it by now.
Not that I really think that they are (exception - if we have one scum team, then maybe one might be), but what else can you do that hasn't already been done?
Gamma Emerald wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Gamma - what is wrong with a team of Zen, Gamma, plytho, and FrozenFlame (ignoring the fact that you are in that list)?

My issue is with how the game has been going down it doesn't make sense as a scumteam.
Which bit(s) in particular do you have issues with, and why?

*N1(?) in Dark Tower, I was scum with LaserGuy and SDK, and was one of the lead wagons. It was only by all three of us joining one other slightly suspicious wagon that we were able to swing it around. We were all very self-conscious about this both at the time and subsequently - if any of us had flipped, there was a huge risk that we'd all be lynched in quick succession. We got lucky that time, because we managed to push the town wagon over the line. If it looks likely (as it does now) that the wagon on you is going to be the eventual successful one, then your buddies may have decided to go the other approach and bus, or disperse their votes to avoid being an obvious scum block.
Gamma Emerald wrote:Ryu, plytho, and possibly jimbob are the people I think are scum. Also isn't FF fosing me? If so why am I not in his top 4?
Do you think any/all of us three are buddies with moody? There's a lot of town in that pile as well, so it's fairly safe to hid in. Why do you think the rest of the scum team aren't supporting your lynch? Also, 8 players is only just over half the active player base, so that's hardly everyone.
bessie wrote:My gut read would be that plytho is somehow tied to jimbob , but the opposite is not necessarily true
FWIW, I know of no connection between us. Also, I believe plytho has strongly defended me in at least one previous game for no reason, although I can't remember which it was, nor what his alignment was.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:12 pm UTC

Old questions and points for Gamma (I've deleted the quotes). Full context.

I went back for a second time through your D2 posts this game, and since you stated that you still had a scum read on me here, you haven't mentioned me once [up to the time of my read], and I'm not in your top four. So, let me rephrase the question - prior to my most recent read on you, did you still consider me scum? If so, why am I not in your top four? If not, what changed to make you think that I am not scum?

I'm still not sure what you are saying here [supposed moody/Gamma false dichotomy]. I had two confident scum reads. I wanted to vote for one, and I needed to decide. Why is that an issue?

[On knowing better than to make bad accusations as scum]Maybe you do try to keep up on who your summates are, but that doesn't mean to say that scum can't make mistakes and say things without thinking them through fully.

[On using other people's reads]I accept that this might be play style point, but it's also lazy, and a great way for scum to avoid having to draw up their own reads. I made a similar point about Zyth earlier with regards to his request for help with reading moody.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Spak » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:13 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:Fine. Because town can't tell it's head from it's ass from a scum-motivated push I'm claiming. I'm Geralt of Rivia, Town Bounty Hunter. Each night including n0 I get a name as a bounty. If I lynch them I get a one shot power. My names received are jimbob n0 and FrozenFlame n1. THIS is why I voted FF over anyone else when I voted him day 2: I wanted to earn my power. It also partially explains my vote on jimbob, which was also because I was just not comfortable voting moody and I sure as hell wouldn't vote myself.

The power seems balanced so I believe this is your role, but the question that I have is would it be fair to have two one-shots of the same alignment? We already have a confirmed one-shot, so would another one be more likely to be town or scum? I doubt that Gamma is town aligned.
Spak wrote:Sorry, I've been super busy and am currently operating off of a few hours of sleep. Trying to keep up as best I can.

Wow, I was gone a long time. Surprised I didn't get a modvote or something lol.
Zyth wrote:We don't get much from you discussing set up speculation, especially over that which has already been addressed. Contribution is good, but not if it's empty. And your strategy and set up related comments are just that: empty.

Trying to amend that as I get completely caught up. It's taken three hours in this sitting thus far, but I'm getting there. I wanna be informed on current events of the game before actually starting with speculation.
LaserGuy wrote:Spak's return is a little weird. Like he expected BoomFrog to be the lynch without actually reading the thread.

That's because I wasn't done catching up yet...
Gamma Emerald wrote:Bessie can you not actually read for shit?!?!!? I'm TOWN you imbecile.

Saying it louder doesn't make me believe you.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Get over yourself Ran. I'm getting sick of you policing my activity every single game . And misreading me for it. That's the annoying part, is that you don't learn. I've been putting so much effort into this game (though apparently not in the way that Lord Ran desires), so it's getting evermore difficult not to take your [star][star]it read of me personally. I can't even tell you how much will power it has taken for me to limit the vulgarities in this post.

I think this is the first time I've seen an outburst that seems genuinely townie. I can see that Zen is trying her hardest, and I feel like someone who could just manufacture reads as scum wouldn't be as frustrated with the amount of time they put into the game being insulted. There's a possibility that it was constructed based upon the seemingly sudden swing of emotion in the next post, but as a gut reaction I'd say this is fairly genuine. Aside from maybe the [star][star], because usually I just see people cuss on SWF.
jimbobmcdoodle wrote:Which do you think it is? If the former, which one is the scum team on?
I'm not sure which it is, but I'm establishing the line that I've perceived as drawn:
Sharks:
Ryu
FF
Spak
JimBob
plytho

Jets:
Zen
Boom
Madge
LaserGuy
Gamma (although Gamma seems to be an outcast of the Jets)

Unsure of gang:
EGW
Bessie
mpolo

Null:
Sabrar? (Haven't given him a close enough look yet, but he seems to be leaning towards Sharks)
Peaceful Whale (too inconsistent)
Znirk & HA (too V/LA)
Amrock (too replacing in an essentially dead slot)

A lot of these people of the same 'gangs' have the same town/scum reads (with the exception of me recently because I've been gone). This is just a generalization and use for illustrating my point, but there does seem to be a clear divide of if Player X is scummy, they tend to have Player Y as townie. In the case scum leading one side and townies leading the other, I'd be inclined to say that the scumteam is on the Jets. With that said, someone on the Jets would be inclined to say that scum lies mostly in the Sharks.

My top scumreads are Boom and Gamma. I think Madge is probably got brought into Jets by Boom's almost complete defense of her and has been looking at the game through town!Boom eyes all this time and I'm honestly not sure of Zen anymore. Zen's D1 play made me think that she was scummy, but her D2 play has improved quite a bit in my opinion. Aside from slightly misrepresenting me in her case, I see genuine scumhunting intent and dedication that I didn't see from her destructive, all over the place playstyle that she exhibited yesterDay. LaserGuy is really hard to read, so I'm gonna try and take another look at his slot during N2 (as long as I'm not bogged down with work). Not sure what to think of mpolo, I see town!Ran play from EGW, and Bessie is either town or working unusually hard as scum. There's the possibility of a scum member on the Sharks to ensure that not everyone gets killed by association, but if there were, I'm not sure who it'd be.

OK, I've been doing this for multiple hours and am gonna go take a well-deserved break. Be back in a bit. I'm fine with BoomFrog or Gamma Emerald dying today and I don't have a strong enough case on Boom to swing the wagon, so I'll just do this and look into Boom more tomorrow:

Vote: Gamma Emerald

NOTE: GAMMA IS AT L-2; DO NOT PLACE ANY MORE VOTES ON HIM UNTIL CLOSE TO DEADLINE.
"As a friend, it is my duty to inform you that your life appears to need more justice."
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bessie
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:19 pm UTC

plytho, go ahead and post if you want to get it out there, or you may not get a response if you wait until after I complete my reads. I'm going out for a couple hours, and might not be back before you go to sleep.

I won't be able to post from work tomorrow as usual. I'll probably be home at after 6 pm PDT (deadline is at 9 pm for me). I have a regular early Monday meeting so won't do analysis tomorrow morning, maybe just some quick hits before I leave. If anyone wants me to respond to something it needs to be posted within the next twelve hours.

Ninja'd by a few. I should just add Ninja'd to my sig.

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plytho
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:58 pm UTC

Replies to bessie, to be read and addressed when she's ready.
Spoiler:
tldr: I think we have a communication issue or you're dodging my questions. I feel like you repeatedly fail to understand what I'm asking and this leads to frustration for both of us. You think you're answering my question and I think you're not. So I try to ask again and you get annoyed because you already answered your interpretation of my question. This is not deliberate and I am as frustrated as you are.

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:I still have an open question about this post. Open question/concern here. There’s a response to some of my other points but not this one here.
I started to go through these individually but I’ve just wasted another half hour rereading my own content. I answered all these. Multiple times. If I didn’t please extract and repost your questions. References: This. This. This. This.


My question, simply stated is: Why did you post
bessie wrote:Um, you know, scum probably has a kill. And they know who the claimed redirector is. They have a few chances to hit him before town has enough info to make a good guess on who to redirect to SirGabriel.
And not
bessie wrote:You’re active lurking.
at this point in the thread to call out my active lurking?

The former is you engaging with my argument, the latter is you calling out my active lurking.

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:I’m also still a bit bugged about this quote from bessie’s first post D2:
bessie wrote:Pick for scum partners at end of D1: plytho and jimbobmacdoodle.
This is supposedly independent of moody’s flip. I’m not sure if bessie meant she didn’t take his flip into account or she thinks jimbob and I are scumbuddies either with or without moody. If it’s the former I think it’s a very strange think to post. If it’s the latter I’m bugged by the lack of clarification. This is from a later post:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: I don’t think bessie really believes her read of jimbob.
Oh but I do.
Again without clarification. Bessie still seems convinced of jimbob’s scumminess and doesn’t seem to think the moody flip is relevant. If she is confident in a two scum team scenario I can understand that she’d still be convinced of the jimbob=scum idea. But in a one team scenario the moody flip and jimbob’s vote are relevant.
See this. Important part:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:This is the only response to my post that I can live with:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:So you’re confident that there are two scum teams? Does the jimbob-plytho connection make you confident about the two scum teams, or is it something else?
Where did the “confident” come from?
I was thinking this was a parallel situation to Gamma being suspicious of Sabrar, EGW and me for swinging the vote to moody but I realise it’s not. I’d still like to see bessie explain how I could be a buddy of moody.
Show me anywhere in this entire thread where I said you were on a scum team with moody. I said that at the end of D1 my pick as scum buddies were plytho and jimbobmacdoodle. These were my picks even before moody was lynched, see this post, and therefore this read is independent of moody’s flip. I haven’t given any other speculation today on the setup, or on possible scum partners of moody. But it is quite interesting what you are reading in to my comments.

Yeah, I know you said that. That’s not my concern. You’ve given me no reason to think you changed your mind and I want to know where you stand. So yeah, you thought jimbob and me were scum partners at the end of D1. Why did you feel a need to bring that up? I don’t care about your thoughts before the flip. I want to know what you think now. Isn’t that clear?

The lack of a follow up on that lead me to think that was still your point of view. That's where my questions are coming from.

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:I guess there are a bunch of things I find suspicious about bessie. The fact that she wasn't on the moody wagon isn't helping her. I’d really like to see her reads on me and jimbob. She’s been calling us scummy and scumbuddies without going into it. She also hasn’t provided a read on Sabrar or Zen all game. The lack of a Zen read is particularly troubling. Bessie also promised to look into LaseGuy’s case on Zen here but doesn’t follow up on it.
D1 analysis of moody here. Response already covered here. And other places. Done chasing ghosts.
Yeah, I know your reasoning for not voting moody. I’m saying it isn’t helping my view on you, not asking you to explain it. You’re not explaining why you haven’t made a read on Zen or Sabrar all game nor why you thought it necessary to say you were thinking of a jimbob-plytho team before moody’s flip.
bessie wrote:If you really want to see my reads on you and jimbob, why are you doing everything you can to keep me from making those reads?
Look, making a read on you is part of this game. It’s not me doing everything I can to keep you from making your reads. It’s me playing mafia and figuring out whether you’re town or scum. You’re free to wait with a response to my read on you until after you’re done making your own reads. That’s what I’m doing.
bessie wrote:You keep asking me to answer the same questions over and over again.
That’s because you’re not answering my questions. Either we have a huge miscommunication problem that will make it hard for us to play in the same games in the future or you’re dodging my questions.

Oh, and just because you’ve answered something before doesn’t mean I can’t find it suspicious. Just because you can explain how your behaviour could come from a townie doesn’t mean it couldn’t just as well come from scum.
he him his

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:39 pm UTC

I think Zen's reluctance to comment on her link to Gamma is very telling. I have an extremely busy day tomorrow, should be able to check the thread but probably not to give detailed responses. Will be online 6-7 hours before deadline and can set alarm to half an hour before it as well. I'd prefer lynching Zen today but if that's not happening Gamma is a great choice too.

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Gamma Emerald
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Gamma Emerald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:40 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Old questions and points for Gamma (I've deleted the quotes). Full context.

I went back for a second time through your D2 posts this game, and since you stated that you still had a scum read on me here, you haven't mentioned me once [up to the time of my read], and I'm not in your top four. So, let me rephrase the question - prior to my most recent read on you, did you still consider me scum? If so, why am I not in your top four? If not, what changed to make you think that I am not scum?

I'm still not sure what you are saying here [supposed moody/Gamma false dichotomy]. I had two confident scum reads. I wanted to vote for one, and I needed to decide. Why is that an issue?

[On knowing better than to make bad accusations as scum]Maybe you do try to keep up on who your summates are, but that doesn't mean to say that scum can't make mistakes and say things without thinking them through fully.

[On using other people's reads]I accept that this might be play style point, but it's also lazy, and a great way for scum to avoid having to draw up their own reads. I made a similar point about Zyth earlier with regards to his request for help with reading moody.

What changed about my read on you was that I realized the reasons I was suspecting you were stupid.
For the dichotomy that was because we didn't have a scum flip from moody yet so I was thinking you gave two town as the only possible lynches.
I don't think I've made that type of error as scum, but I know I make those mistakes much more often as town.
Let me note you didn't make the read-copying point about Madge so that's kinda a non-starter already. Besides that, I'm at least taking stances on people.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

I'm willing to switch to Zen, Sabrar.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:BTW George I don't feel like you're really trying to pull the votes. You haven't made a case on any of your lynch candidates. I asked you to help figure out Ryu, but you've provided nothing.

Vote jim and at least help me put scum in a position where they are forced to choose.


Zen, why aren't you trying to pull votes onto Spak?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:01 pm UTC

Spak wrote:
Spoiler:
Gamma Emerald wrote:Fine. Because town can't tell it's head from it's ass from a scum-motivated push I'm claiming. I'm Geralt of Rivia, Town Bounty Hunter. Each night including n0 I get a name as a bounty. If I lynch them I get a one shot power. My names received are jimbob n0 and FrozenFlame n1. THIS is why I voted FF over anyone else when I voted him day 2: I wanted to earn my power. It also partially explains my vote on jimbob, which was also because I was just not comfortable voting moody and I sure as hell wouldn't vote myself.

The power seems balanced so I believe this is your role, but the question that I have is would it be fair to have two one-shots of the same alignment? We already have a confirmed one-shot, so would another one be more likely to be town or scum? I doubt that Gamma is town aligned.
Spak wrote:Sorry, I've been super busy and am currently operating off of a few hours of sleep. Trying to keep up as best I can.

Wow, I was gone a long time. Surprised I didn't get a modvote or something lol.
Zyth wrote:We don't get much from you discussing set up speculation, especially over that which has already been addressed. Contribution is good, but not if it's empty. And your strategy and set up related comments are just that: empty.

Trying to amend that as I get completely caught up. It's taken three hours in this sitting thus far, but I'm getting there. I wanna be informed on current events of the game before actually starting with speculation.
LaserGuy wrote:Spak's return is a little weird. Like he expected BoomFrog to be the lynch without actually reading the thread.

That's because I wasn't done catching up yet...
Gamma Emerald wrote:Bessie can you not actually read for shit?!?!!? I'm TOWN you imbecile.

Saying it louder doesn't make me believe you.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Get over yourself Ran. I'm getting sick of you policing my activity every single game . And misreading me for it. That's the annoying part, is that you don't learn. I've been putting so much effort into this game (though apparently not in the way that Lord Ran desires), so it's getting evermore difficult not to take your [star][star]it read of me personally. I can't even tell you how much will power it has taken for me to limit the vulgarities in this post.

I think this is the first time I've seen an outburst that seems genuinely townie. I can see that Zen is trying her hardest, and I feel like someone who could just manufacture reads as scum wouldn't be as frustrated with the amount of time they put into the game being insulted. There's a possibility that it was constructed based upon the seemingly sudden swing of emotion in the next post, but as a gut reaction I'd say this is fairly genuine. Aside from maybe the [star][star], because usually I just see people cuss on SWF.
jimbobmcdoodle wrote:Which do you think it is? If the former, which one is the scum team on?
I'm not sure which it is, but I'm establishing the line that I've perceived as drawn:
Sharks:
Ryu
FF
Spak
JimBob
plytho

Jets:
Zen
Boom
Madge
LaserGuy
Gamma (although Gamma seems to be an outcast of the Jets)

Unsure of gang:
EGW
Bessie
mpolo

Null:
Sabrar? (Haven't given him a close enough look yet, but he seems to be leaning towards Sharks)
Peaceful Whale (too inconsistent)
Znirk & HA (too V/LA)
Amrock (too replacing in an essentially dead slot)

A lot of these people of the same 'gangs' have the same town/scum reads (with the exception of me recently because I've been gone). This is just a generalization and use for illustrating my point, but there does seem to be a clear divide of if Player X is scummy, they tend to have Player Y as townie. In the case scum leading one side and townies leading the other, I'd be inclined to say that the scumteam is on the Jets. With that said, someone on the Jets would be inclined to say that scum lies mostly in the Sharks.

My top scumreads are Boom and Gamma. I think Madge is probably got brought into Jets by Boom's almost complete defense of her and has been looking at the game through town!Boom eyes all this time and I'm honestly not sure of Zen anymore. Zen's D1 play made me think that she was scummy, but her D2 play has improved quite a bit in my opinion. Aside from slightly misrepresenting me in her case, I see genuine scumhunting intent and dedication that I didn't see from her destructive, all over the place playstyle that she exhibited yesterDay. LaserGuy is really hard to read, so I'm gonna try and take another look at his slot during N2 (as long as I'm not bogged down with work). Not sure what to think of mpolo, I see town!Ran play from EGW, and Bessie is either town or working unusually hard as scum. There's the possibility of a scum member on the Sharks to ensure that not everyone gets killed by association, but if there were, I'm not sure who it'd be.

OK, I've been doing this for multiple hours and am gonna go take a well-deserved break. Be back in a bit. I'm fine with BoomFrog or Gamma Emerald dying today and I don't have a strong enough case on Boom to swing the wagon, so I'll just do this and look into Boom more tomorrow:

Vote: Gamma Emerald

NOTE: GAMMA IS AT L-2; DO NOT PLACE ANY MORE VOTES ON HIM UNTIL CLOSE TO DEADLINE.


This is a very interesting and insightful post (the sharks vs jet part in particular). Some speculation on this...

Given that the sides are fairly neatly balanced and both have relatively good arguments for their scum reads, IMHO, this points to two scum teams over one. One shark team, one jet, with some townies on both. I'll add EGW to shark side (reading Zyth/Gamma as scum for example) and mpolo to jet (protecting Zyth). Sabrar and bessie are kinda null... bessie maybe leaning jet and Sabrar leaning shark.

Shark scum is something like Frozen, Ryu, Moody. Jet team is maybe Zyth, BoomFrog and Gamma. This is just sort of crowdsourcing the top scum reads from each side, not intended to be a super comprehensive analysis.

Hmmm.... going to have to think more on this. But this makes a lot of sense to me.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

Welp I got a lot to catch up on, give me a bit to read up.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:10 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:I think Zen's reluctance to comment on her link to Gamma is very telling.
Scum-bud hunting is the worst type of hunting. It's human nature to see connections in whatever possible, so basing your reads on these imaginary connections is an absolute fallacy. Cases built upon this are entirely circumstantial, yet this seems to be where the heart of your read on me is based (my "connection" to moody, my "connection" to gamma). It's not even something that can be debated, and I'm not going to justify this type of play by trying. I'm just sitting here shaking my head at all this gang speculation. If I am lynched, I really hope it comes as a wake up call, because if you guys continue to play like this, it will very likely cost us the game. This is especially true in this game because with gamma's, Madge's, mpolo's, and SirG's claims, it is becoming evermore likely that this game is simply riddled with indies.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:11 am UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:I’m not going to be all that active, my cousin just died... :cry: Maybe you’ll have to replace me, I don’t know. I think we’ve used all of our replacements, maybe when someone dies they can sub in for me.


:(

I'm sorry to hear this.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Madge » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:34 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
Madge wrote:GE Claim: It seems like a reasonable enough role, I'm not an expert on OS's modding so I'll defer to smashboards if they think it's ridiculous and would never have been used.
@Madge - Do you think he is town though?


It doesn't seem like a townie role at all - benefit from peopel getting lynched? It seems indie or scummy. Perhaps a garden variety lyncher. But again without my own deep knowledge of OS's modding style to draw from I'm worried my conclusiosn willk be bad./

I liked plytho's post. I think he raises a good point: maybe we should lynch a lurker today. It'll be more FUN in the following days if we have actual people to talk about rather than vanished lurkers.

True to my nature at this point I want to claim what my first power is so people can decide if it's even worth trying to activate it after D3 (at this point tbh with all the lurkers I don't think it is going to be worth it ever), but given I apparently claim too early I will keep it quiet. But I don't think I will be able to effectively use any of my powers. I'm happy to continue playing as disgruntled VT until such time as I die. I think scum isn't going to kill me because I suck at scumhunting and because my power isn't activated.
I'm writing a vampire yaoi novel, here's my accountability link: https://www.beeminder.com/mad/redandwilliam

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:17 am UTC

Gonna speed read since deadline,

I'm still not sure reading the other Dark Tower mafia game who it relates to FF's play here, also perfectly fine with his posts after I started where I left off. I'd rather keep him around and don't see why lynching him is ideal at all.

Laserguy isn't getting or really understanding why taking actions against inactives can be ideal. Are these slots going to magically post? Are they going to be killed at night? Will they be replaced? Sometimes inactive lynches are perfectly fine. Not today, today we are lynching Gamma and idk why you think his posts while more active are better or "good"

I'm fine with Zen right now and would rather not lynch him today. Still need to reread Spak stuff.

Gamma's Role screams indy or scum to me, do not trust that claim nor Gamma reactions to the wagon.

Ran stop pushing in Zen's, we're lynching Gamma today.

Will try and keep more up to date from here.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:29 am UTC

Ok, some updated reads.

#HBC | Red Ryu
He still hasn’t caught up and I can’t wait, so here goes.[pre post edit: He’s on line now, will reevaluate later if he posts]
His style is hard for me to follow so if I misinterpret something please correct me. I like that he writes down what he’s thinking as he reads and he posts it as written. Tells Peaceful Whale not to reveal anything in a couple of places, good advice for a confused newbie (so many others were telling him they were interested in his results).
#HBC | Red Ryu wrote: I do like Laser's point on page 28 about Zyth on strongest scum player, it's obviously me because I'm totally not terrible at mafia, but I am curious for the basis of that kind of point as well.
:)
I like that he’s suspicious of Madge, too many people are allowing her to cruise through the game without even trying to make any contributions.
[pre post edit: skim, no red flags in his latest post]

#HBC | Zyth
D1 I was reading town on Zyth, so I’m going to focus on D2 content.
Devotes a lot of time to trying to explain differences between xkcd and DGames meta here (also did this D1 don’t have time to read it all right now). Why would he take so much time to try to make sure we all understand each other if he’s scum? Misunderstanding, division, etc is good for scum. Could be because he wants a more challenging game, but I think it’s for townie reasons, like in this post where he asks the active posters to slow down so that the late starters can get caught up (approximately 24 hours in to the game and there are already four pages of content). Zyth, your case on Spak was made before the weekend, and he has since posted the bulk of his content in this game. Interesting points: Active lurking, his late reads need to focus on players not summary of content. Comment to Spak here after Spack started posting, concentrate on players, not setup. Do you have an updated Spak read? Still has not posted his awesome scum case on me! :) Still having a conflict with Sabrar here, has a point that Sabrar needs to take Zen’s personality in to account when he makes his reads, especially since Sabrar expects us all to make allowances for Madge’s personality. I am currently leaning town on Zyth.

Sabrar
His content is everything I expect it to be, except for the (for him) low quantity of posts. But I think that Sabrar is still in data gathering mode and I suspect the posting will pick up as the field thins out, and as investigation results and flips start to pile up. There are a few things in his content that make me hesitant in labeling him town outright (the thing with Madge is only a small part), but I’m still leaning town on him. I’ll post more about this on D3 if I’m still around. Sabrar, do you have any questions for me?

Spak
I sympathize with Spak’s time issues, but if he keeps posting the bulk of his content late in the day, there’s not going to be time for everyone to respond. I’d really like what he’s done this weekend if it was done earlier, but he’s just now reading and commenting on stuff that’s been discussed for days (though I’m one to talk because I’m always behind too). Oh, he addressed that point here. I agree with your point that how you are doing it is the best way for someone to follow your thought process, but it would be all that helpful if you can’t get caught up by end of day. I understand because I play that way also, but the hard reality is that sometimes you need to skim/skip.
Spak wrote:Madge's play since then leads me to think she's pretty townie, but I don't see how you could've come to such strong conclusions off of such little content.
What in particular led you to this town read of Madge?
Refer to this post. I'm intrigued by his team theory. Will think about this.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:43 am UTC

Madge wrote:I liked plytho's post. I think he raises a good point: maybe we should lynch a lurker today. It'll be more FUN in the following days if we have actual people to talk about rather than vanished lurkers.

True to my nature at this point I want to claim what my first power is so people can decide if it's even worth trying to activate it after D3 (at this point tbh with all the lurkers I don't think it is going to be worth it ever), but given I apparently claim too early I will keep it quiet. But I don't think I will be able to effectively use any of my powers. I'm happy to continue playing as disgruntled VT until such time as I die. I think scum isn't going to kill me because I suck at scumhunting and because my power isn't activated.

I don’t think that’s the reason scum probably isn’t going to kill you. I think scum is probably not going to waste their kill on someone who has absolutely no interest in scum hunting.

Re: lynching lurkers. Perhaps it would be better to try to figure out a way to keep LaserGuy around for a while so he can clear out some of the lurkers for us and we don’t have to waste a lynch?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:44 am UTC

#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:
Laserguy isn't getting or really understanding why taking actions against inactives can bre ideal. Are these slots going to magically post? Are they going to be killed at night? Will they be replaced? Sometimes inactive lynches are perfectly fine. Not today, today we are lynching Gamma and idk why you think his posts while more active are better or "good"


You're misunderstanding my point. Policy lynching inactive players is a viable play. Pretending that inactive players are actual mafia is not.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:46 am UTC

bessie wrote:Ok, some updated reads.

#HBC | Red Ryu
He still hasn’t caught up and I can’t wait, so here goes.[pre post edit: He’s on line now, will reevaluate later if he posts]
His style is hard for me to follow so if I misinterpret something please correct me. I like that he writes down what he’s thinking as he reads and he posts it as written. Tells Peaceful Whale not to reveal anything in a couple of places, good advice for a confused newbie (so many others were telling him they were interested in his results).
#HBC | Red Ryu wrote: I do like Laser's point on page 28 about Zyth on strongest scum player, it's obviously me because I'm totally not terrible at mafia, but I am curious for the basis of that kind of point as well.
:)
I like that he’s suspicious of Madge, too many people are allowing her to cruise through the game without even trying to make any contributions.
[pre post edit: skim, no red flags in his latest post]

Spak
I sympathize with Spak’s time issues, but if he keeps posting the bulk of his content late in the day, there’s not going to be time for everyone to respond. I’d really like what he’s done this weekend if it was done earlier, but he’s just now reading and commenting on stuff that’s been discussed for days (though I’m one to talk because I’m always behind too). Oh, he addressed that point here. I agree with your point that how you are doing it is the best way for someone to follow your thought process, but it would be all that helpful if you can’t get caught up by end of day. I understand because I play that way also, but the hard reality is that sometimes you need to skim/skip.
Spak wrote:Madge's play since then leads me to think she's pretty townie, but I don't see how you could've come to such strong conclusions off of such little content.
What in particular led you to this town read of Madge?
Refer to this post. I'm intrigued by his team theory. Will think about this.
What are your reads on these two? I presume for Ruy it's a town lean, but it's not stated explicitly as it was with me and Sabrar.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:03 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Spak wrote:
Spoiler:
Gamma Emerald wrote:Fine. Because town can't tell it's head from it's ass from a scum-motivated push I'm claiming. I'm Geralt of Rivia, Town Bounty Hunter. Each night including n0 I get a name as a bounty. If I lynch them I get a one shot power. My names received are jimbob n0 and FrozenFlame n1. THIS is why I voted FF over anyone else when I voted him day 2: I wanted to earn my power. It also partially explains my vote on jimbob, which was also because I was just not comfortable voting moody and I sure as hell wouldn't vote myself.

The power seems balanced so I believe this is your role, but the question that I have is would it be fair to have two one-shots of the same alignment? We already have a confirmed one-shot, so would another one be more likely to be town or scum? I doubt that Gamma is town aligned.
Spak wrote:Sorry, I've been super busy and am currently operating off of a few hours of sleep. Trying to keep up as best I can.

Wow, I was gone a long time. Surprised I didn't get a modvote or something lol.
Zyth wrote:We don't get much from you discussing set up speculation, especially over that which has already been addressed. Contribution is good, but not if it's empty. And your strategy and set up related comments are just that: empty.

Trying to amend that as I get completely caught up. It's taken three hours in this sitting thus far, but I'm getting there. I wanna be informed on current events of the game before actually starting with speculation.
LaserGuy wrote:Spak's return is a little weird. Like he expected BoomFrog to be the lynch without actually reading the thread.

That's because I wasn't done catching up yet...
Gamma Emerald wrote:Bessie can you not actually read for shit?!?!!? I'm TOWN you imbecile.

Saying it louder doesn't make me believe you.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Get over yourself Ran. I'm getting sick of you policing my activity every single game . And misreading me for it. That's the annoying part, is that you don't learn. I've been putting so much effort into this game (though apparently not in the way that Lord Ran desires), so it's getting evermore difficult not to take your [star][star]it read of me personally. I can't even tell you how much will power it has taken for me to limit the vulgarities in this post.

I think this is the first time I've seen an outburst that seems genuinely townie. I can see that Zen is trying her hardest, and I feel like someone who could just manufacture reads as scum wouldn't be as frustrated with the amount of time they put into the game being insulted. There's a possibility that it was constructed based upon the seemingly sudden swing of emotion in the next post, but as a gut reaction I'd say this is fairly genuine. Aside from maybe the [star][star], because usually I just see people cuss on SWF.
jimbobmcdoodle wrote:Which do you think it is? If the former, which one is the scum team on?
I'm not sure which it is, but I'm establishing the line that I've perceived as drawn:
Sharks:
Ryu
FF
Spak
JimBob
plytho

Jets:
Zen
Boom
Madge
LaserGuy
Gamma (although Gamma seems to be an outcast of the Jets)

Unsure of gang:
EGW
Bessie
mpolo

Null:
Sabrar? (Haven't given him a close enough look yet, but he seems to be leaning towards Sharks)
Peaceful Whale (too inconsistent)
Znirk & HA (too V/LA)
Amrock (too replacing in an essentially dead slot)

A lot of these people of the same 'gangs' have the same town/scum reads (with the exception of me recently because I've been gone). This is just a generalization and use for illustrating my point, but there does seem to be a clear divide of if Player X is scummy, they tend to have Player Y as townie. In the case scum leading one side and townies leading the other, I'd be inclined to say that the scumteam is on the Jets. With that said, someone on the Jets would be inclined to say that scum lies mostly in the Sharks.

My top scumreads are Boom and Gamma. I think Madge is probably got brought into Jets by Boom's almost complete defense of her and has been looking at the game through town!Boom eyes all this time and I'm honestly not sure of Zen anymore. Zen's D1 play made me think that she was scummy, but her D2 play has improved quite a bit in my opinion. Aside from slightly misrepresenting me in her case, I see genuine scumhunting intent and dedication that I didn't see from her destructive, all over the place playstyle that she exhibited yesterDay. LaserGuy is really hard to read, so I'm gonna try and take another look at his slot during N2 (as long as I'm not bogged down with work). Not sure what to think of mpolo, I see town!Ran play from EGW, and Bessie is either town or working unusually hard as scum. There's the possibility of a scum member on the Sharks to ensure that not everyone gets killed by association, but if there were, I'm not sure who it'd be.

OK, I've been doing this for multiple hours and am gonna go take a well-deserved break. Be back in a bit. I'm fine with BoomFrog or Gamma Emerald dying today and I don't have a strong enough case on Boom to swing the wagon, so I'll just do this and look into Boom more tomorrow:

Vote: Gamma Emerald

NOTE: GAMMA IS AT L-2; DO NOT PLACE ANY MORE VOTES ON HIM UNTIL CLOSE TO DEADLINE.


This is a very interesting and insightful post (the sharks vs jet part in particular). Some speculation on this...

Given that the sides are fairly neatly balanced and both have relatively good arguments for their scum reads, IMHO, this points to two scum teams over one. One shark team, one jet, with some townies on both. I'll add EGW to shark side (reading Zyth/Gamma as scum for example) and mpolo to jet (protecting Zyth). Sabrar and bessie are kinda null... bessie maybe leaning jet and Sabrar leaning shark.

Shark scum is something like Frozen, Ryu, Moody. Jet team is maybe Zyth, BoomFrog and Gamma. This is just sort of crowdsourcing the top scum reads from each side, not intended to be a super comprehensive analysis.

Hmmm.... going to have to think more on this. But this makes a lot of sense to me.


This is an awful post. Whoever gets my Hidden Message ability, please send me Laser & Boom.

Spak's post was good though. He wasn't trying to push his perceived jets and sharks as scum (love this reference btw lmao) as Laser is doing here. Really like Spak's recent posts. Very well written. I'm always really impressed by how well some people can be as scum. He is still scum though. The Boom tunnel. So fake. It's actually really funny to me that people aren't able to see it.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:10 am UTC

Ran, you're play is really unnatural here. Reading through Walmart atm. You were a jerk to me there too, but it it seemed so flowy and free compared to here.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:11 am UTC

*your

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:26 am UTC

Ran, skim through this d1: https://smashboards.com/threads/walmart-mafia-game-capitalism-wins-haha-you-commies-d.340134/page-8

And our interaction in the dead qt, bottom of page 2: https://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/MvMRVFXKcrcpc

Ran, why have you not commented on my Spak case? Why is Spak so low on your lynch list?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:27 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I'd also expect 4-5 more scum in a game this size. Which I why I have a problem with the fact that you have only two real scumreads. Look at your ordered list here. Znirk is your third strongest scumread. That means that, under the best of circumstances--both your scumreads are right--you're still probably reading at least two, maybe three scum as Town. If you're scum, this is a very easy and inconspicuous way to make your scumbuddies look townie, by putting a lurker deep into scum territory on your list.


I have three not including Znirk. Gamma, Zen, PeacefulWhale. I think that's good enough for now. I think you are over-thinking the underlined. You are thinking in terms of black and white. Actives and inactives. It is easy to put a lurker on as a scumread, but if people give passes to lurker scum, it becomes easy to lurk, and that is why I call them out as I see them. You have yet to state the town motivation for doing so, though. Calling out inactive scum encourages activity, which makes it more likely everyone will be talking and scum will slip eventually.

No, you're misunderstanding what I said. I'm not saying that Znirk always lurks or has a lurky meta in particular. I'm saying that I have, on one previous occasions, seem him join a game and then disappear, suddenly, without warning, after only a couple of posts. In that game, he happened to be Town. But that's just an example. I don't think that it's his meta to do this more as Town or scum; he dropped the game for IRL reasons. I do not believe Znirk is a lurker in this game; as I said at the outset of my previous post, I believe Znirk should be classified as inactive, which is a null tell. He isn't lurker scum; he isn't playing at all.


He has played, so his content is readable. Regardless of him not being here today or not. He's still a viable lurker lynch. If he was simply inactive and not voting or playing at all, you may have a point. This is not the case for Znirk though, and even you give him a pass for one post, so I don't understand if you can read him as town, why I should not be able to read him as scum. I think you are complicating this with categories.

Of course FrozenFlame is scummier; he's active lurking. He is playing the game, he's just not contributing much of value. And as I noted, I've played with him before as well, when he was Town, and he did not behave this way. His contributions were quite productive and insightful. Moreover, I'm kind of baffled both why an experienced player like Frozen would have an active-lurky meta to begin with, and why the experienced players he plays with routinely give him a free pass for the couple of game days because of it. Given the oft-stated preference of your fellowship for lynching lurkers, I'm surprised he isn't policy lynched all the time.


Frozen Flame has the tendency to be a N1 kill so he always plays in this way to remain alive while being able to give his perspective. We like to give space and time to read people, and usually that method works. It's like I said, if he is scum, he'll show himself via POE. We don't like to give space and time to inactive players who aren't contributing anything to the game, as that is only helpful for scum, not town. We sign up for the game for a reason. If you don't put in the time, then you are being useless and helping scum achieve their wincon.

Sure, if you want to discuss policy lynching Znirk, that's fine. Strategically, that's something that might be worth discussing. But it is a policy lynch. I don't agree with trying to sell a policy lynch as a scumread. If you think Znirk should be lynched because he is inactive, you should say that. If you think Znirk should be lynched because you think he is scum, that is a very different proposition.


I don't consider it policy because the lurker in question has play and posts that are readable. I say exactly what I mean and mean exactly what I say. Znirk seems like scum from the few posts that he has posted, while also being a lurker. You simply disagree. Consider the scenario of remaining scum being lurkers. When is the best time to take care of lurkers? How would you propose to do it? How would you determine if the lurker is scum or town? In a hydra game I played with Zen, I caught a lurker who was scum, but people lynched her a day phase too late. So he can vouch that I can read people from a few posts, it's possible.

It looks to me like he fell behind and was doing his best to catch up. His first post is on page 1 and is second is on page 8. Maybe he was trying to use his questions to lift the game out of RVS, and didn't think they were relevant anymore. I don't know. Second and third posts look fine to me. I don't see anything to justify a scumread here. Again, if you want to policy lynch him for inactivity, you should just say so.


He didn't care enough to follow up or clarify for the matter. Which is why I feel it looks like he's only trying to look good.

A naked vote doesn't really tell me anything. That's why I didn't comment on your vote on Znirk either.


Ok.

I more or less agree with this.


Ok. How do you feel about Zen not pushing for votes on Spak?

X-Men. It's the only other game PW has played here.

With PW, what stands out most to me is that his commentary in the game is broadly inconsistent with him having daychat. He's overreacting to even the slightest pressure, constantly dribbling out far too much information about his role, having rule infractions, and isn't generally making any attempt to produce reads or productive content. His play in this game is noticeably worse in terms of basic mechanics than it was in Fridge Mafia, where he had chat, and more similar to X-Men, where he didn't. I didn't comment on this in the Fridge game thread, but in my contemporaneous notes in GoJoe on the Fridge mafia game, I actually point out exactly when I felt that his partner joined the game and started chatting with him, because there's a noticeable shift in the quality of his content at this point (I should have nailed him on D1 for this, but I erroneously came to the conclusion that he was probably a mason instead).


I'll talk more about this later, don't have time to read that game yet. Remind me to discuss this with you.

I will have another look to see if anything pops out as interesting to me. My original reads took this into account and those served as the baseline for my current reads.


Thank you.

I don't actually disagree with a lot of this. Gamma has certainly given every indication of being melodramatic. I find his content in the last few pages in particular to be quite appalling (especially this, which, seriously @Gamma, regardless of your alignment, that shit is not appropriate), which has made it very difficult for me to muster a lot of willpower to want to defend him, and as a result I've spent probably twice as long on this section of the post as I have on everything that's gone before. I'm not going to deny that his play his a very scummy feel to it. He's great lynchbait. He reminds me a lot of heuristically_alone, who gives off extremely scummy vibes even as Town (X-Men is a great example), though heury is at least lighthearted and funny. As I said earlier, I think some of Gamma's play is fine, not great, but fine, and he wasn't really on my radar for most of the D2. I'd probably have put him as null, or maybe a slight lean one way or the other. I noticed, though, that my scumreads--all of them (not Spak in D2 until recently, though he had made noises in that direction D1)--had Gamma as a leading lynch contender for the today, or had already voted for him, and that was worth a bit of townie credit in my mind, and I'm going to oppose any wagon that is driven by those particular players, because I don't vote with scum and won't act in ways that further their objectives. Again, this I am confused as to why this seems to be controversial. Do townies regularly vote the same wagons as their strongest scumreads in your part of the world?

Sorry, I don't really feel I did a great job of this last section. Gamma's personal attack against bessie really rubbed me the wrong way and I just can't summon the energy to really fight this right now. Maybe I'll revisit this later when I'm not so pissed off at him.


I agree that comment was not nice, I hope he refrains from doing that and even insulting me as well. I don't appreciate it. Gamewise, he has done this as scum before and I have caught him. So I have meta of him. He did scumread me in The Thing Mafia, I don't remember why though, but I townread him in that game. (At least he seemed townie from my scum eyes there) He's lurked as scum, he's made forceful posts as scum, yet you say we should give him a pass because your scumreads don't like his play, for reasons you don't disagree with. He was scum read in the previous game, and I helped by town reading him and defending him. His own scum mate was pushing for him. Townies don't like to wagon with their scumreads, but your scumreads aren't convincing. Take Red Ryu for instance. A player who seems to be inactive, but is getting better and actually pushing a wagon, asking questions, and making valid points. You consider him scum for 'not caring for his reads or interactions with other players'. One, I don't understand why you are reading his interactions and factoring that into your individual read of him. The Moody flip interaction is fair and valid, though. That's it. Two, 'not caring for his reads' is a lazy stance. You don't care for which reads of his, and why?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:28 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:You're misunderstanding my point. Policy lynching inactive players is a viable play. Pretending that inactive players are actual mafia is not.


Inactive players can be mafia. Policy lynching players simply for inactivity is not ok, otherwise that simply becomes a random lynch instead of looking at their posts/actions.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:41 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Ran, you're play is really unnatural here. Reading through Walmart atm. You were a jerk to me there too, but it it seemed so flowy and free compared to here.


What about it? Use quotes my boy. Expand on what you mean. Why are you saying this now instead of D1 or early D2?

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Ran, why have you not commented on my Spak case? Why is Spak so low on your lynch list?


I have said it looks good. I put him in my top 4 as Plytho mentioned he viewed without saying much. Why aren't you pushing for votes on him? Why is Gamma town to you?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:53 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Ran, you're play is really unnatural here. Reading through Walmart atm. You were a jerk to me there too, but it it seemed so flowy and free compared to here.


What about it? Use quotes my boy. Expand on what you mean. Why are you saying this now instead of D1 or early D2?

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Ran, why have you not commented on my Spak case? Why is Spak so low on your lynch list?


I have said it looks good. I put him in my top 4 as Plytho mentioned he viewed without saying much. Why aren't you pushing for votes on him? Why is Gamma town to you?

Your're being super backgroundy. Tell me what points you like about the Spak case. Why hasn't it influenced your read? The only thing you claimed to have influenced your current position of Spak is him viewing without saying much. This is a scum!Ran thing to do. That is such a bad reason to scum read someone and you should know better by now after all these years of playing mafia. You did the same with DH d1 which is just gross. (I like lynching inactives early because they are unknowns & liabilities, you are actually scum reading them for it and that's disgusting).

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:56 am UTC

Spak wrote:quote ping

context
You're completely ignoring the point I'm making regarding your Boom read. If you think Boom is scum for those reasons, why don't you think me and Sarbar are scum for those same reasons?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:59 am UTC

I'm constantly working, so I post from mobile or ask a few questions while at work. Don't dodge my questions, Zen.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:02 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I'm constantly working, so I post from mobile or ask a few questions while at work. Don't dodge my questions, Zen.

Tell me what points you like about the Spak case. Why hasn't it influenced your read? The only thing you claimed to have influenced your current position of Spak is him viewing without saying much. This is a scum!Ran thing to do.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:04 am UTC

@Zen: putting aside connection-reads why does town!you not call out Gamma when he misrepresents your content?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:05 am UTC

Zen: I'm focusing on Gamma and you right now. I think you are using the Spak case to distance Spak, instead of actually push for his lynch.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:08 am UTC

Note that Zen has changed his viewing status to invisible.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:09 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@Zen: putting aside connection-reads why does town!you not call out Gamma when he misrepresents your content?


Because I really dgaf about that. I stated why he was town in my reads post D1.


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