I'd also expect 4-5 more scum in a game this size. Which I why I have a problem with the fact that you have only two real scumreads. Look at your ordered list here
. Znirk is your third strongest scumread. That means that, under the best of circumstances--both your scumreads are right--you're still probably reading at least two, maybe three scum as Town. If you're scum, this is a very easy and inconspicuous way to make your scumbuddies look townie, by putting a lurker deep into scum territory on your list
I have three not including Znirk. Gamma, Zen, PeacefulWhale. I think that's good enough for now. I think you are over-thinking the underlined. You are thinking in terms of black and white. Actives and inactives. It is easy to put a lurker on as a scumread, but if people give passes to lurker scum, it becomes easy to lurk, and that is why I call them out as I see them. You have yet to state the town motivation for doing so, though. Calling out inactive scum encourages activity, which makes it more likely everyone will be talking and scum will slip eventually.
No, you're misunderstanding what I said. I'm not saying that Znirk always lurks or has a lurky meta in particular. I'm saying that I have, on one previous occasions, seem him join a game and then disappear, suddenly, without warning, after only a couple of posts. In that game, he happened to be Town. But that's just an example. I don't think that it's his meta to do this more as Town or scum; he dropped the game for IRL reasons. I do not believe Znirk is a lurker in this game; as I said at the outset of my previous post, I believe Znirk should be classified as inactive, which is a null tell. He isn't lurker scum; he isn't playing at all.
He has played, so his content is readable. Regardless of him not being here today or not. He's still a viable lurker lynch. If he was simply inactive and not voting or playing at all, you may have a point. This is not the case for Znirk though, and even you give him a pass for one post, so I don't understand if you can read him as town, why I should not be able to read him as scum. I think you are complicating this with categories.
Of course FrozenFlame is scummier; he's active lurking. He is playing the game, he's just not contributing much of value. And as I noted, I've played with him before as well, when he was Town, and he did not behave this way. His contributions were quite productive and insightful. Moreover, I'm kind of baffled both why an experienced player like Frozen would have an active-lurky meta to begin with, and why the experienced players he plays with routinely give him a free pass for the couple of game days because of it. Given the oft-stated preference of your fellowship for lynching lurkers, I'm surprised he isn't policy lynched all the time.
Frozen Flame has the tendency to be a N1 kill so he always plays in this way to remain alive while being able to give his perspective. We like to give space and time to read people, and usually that method works. It's like I said, if he is scum, he'll show himself via POE. We don't like to give space and time to inactive players who aren't contributing anything to the game, as that is only helpful for scum, not town. We sign up for the game for a reason. If you don't put in the time, then you are being useless and helping scum achieve their wincon.
Sure, if you want to discuss policy lynching Znirk, that's fine. Strategically, that's something that might be worth discussing. But it is a policy lynch. I don't agree with trying to sell a policy lynch as a scumread. If you think Znirk should be lynched because he is inactive, you should say that. If you think Znirk should be lynched because you think he is scum, that is a very different proposition.
I don't consider it policy because the lurker in question has play and posts that are readable. I say exactly what I mean and mean exactly what I say. Znirk seems like scum from the few posts that he has posted, while also being a lurker. You simply disagree. Consider the scenario of remaining scum being lurkers. When is the best time to take care of lurkers? How would you propose to do it? How would you determine if the lurker is scum or town? In a hydra game I played with Zen, I caught a lurker who was scum, but people lynched her a day phase too late. So he can vouch that I can read people from a few posts, it's possible.
It looks to me like he fell behind and was doing his best to catch up. His first post is on page 1 and is second is on page 8. Maybe he was trying to use his questions to lift the game out of RVS, and didn't think they were relevant anymore. I don't know. Second and third posts look fine to me. I don't see anything to justify a scumread here. Again, if you want to policy lynch him for inactivity, you should just say so.
He didn't care enough to follow up or clarify for the matter. Which is why I feel it looks like he's only trying to look good.
A naked vote doesn't really tell me anything. That's why I didn't comment on your vote on Znirk either.
I more or less agree with this.
Ok. How do you feel about Zen not pushing for votes on Spak?
. It's the only other game PW has played here.
With PW, what stands out most to me is that his commentary in the game is broadly inconsistent with him having daychat. He's overreacting to even the slightest pressure, constantly dribbling out far too much information about his role, having rule infractions, and isn't generally making any attempt to produce reads or productive content. His play in this game is noticeably worse in terms of basic mechanics than it was in Fridge Mafia, where he had chat, and more similar to X-Men, where he didn't. I didn't comment on this in the Fridge game thread, but in my contemporaneous notes in GoJoe on the Fridge mafia game, I actually point out exactly when I felt that his partner joined the game and started chatting with him, because there's a noticeable shift in the quality of his content at this point (I should have nailed him on D1 for this, but I erroneously came to the conclusion that he was probably a mason instead).
I'll talk more about this later, don't have time to read that game yet. Remind me to discuss this with you.
I will have another look to see if anything pops out as interesting to me. My original reads took this into account and those served as the baseline for my current reads.
I don't actually disagree with a lot of this. Gamma has certainly given every indication of being melodramatic. I find his content in the last few pages in particular to be quite appalling (especially this
, which, seriously @Gamma, regardless of your alignment, that shit is not appropriate), which has made it very difficult for me to muster a lot of willpower to want to defend him, and as a result I've spent probably twice as long on this section of the post as I have on everything that's gone before. I'm not going to deny that his play his a very scummy feel to it. He's great lynchbait. He reminds me a lot of heuristically_alone, who gives off extremely scummy vibes even as Town (X-Men is a great example), though heury is at least lighthearted and funny. As I said earlier, I think some of Gamma's play is fine, not great, but fine, and he wasn't really on my radar for most of the D2. I'd probably have put him as null, or maybe a slight lean one way or the other. I noticed, though, that my scumreads--all of them (not Spak in D2 until recently, though he had made noises in that direction D1)--had Gamma as a leading lynch contender for the today, or had already voted for him, and that was worth a bit of townie credit in my mind, and I'm going to oppose any wagon that is driven by those particular players, because I don't vote with scum and won't act in ways that further their objectives. Again, this I am confused as to why this seems to be controversial. Do townies regularly vote the same wagons as their strongest scumreads in your part of the world?
Sorry, I don't really feel I did a great job of this last section. Gamma's personal attack against bessie really rubbed me the wrong way and I just can't summon the energy to really fight this right now. Maybe I'll revisit this later when I'm not so pissed off at him.
I agree that comment was not nice, I hope he refrains from doing that and even insulting me as well. I don't appreciate it. Gamewise, he has done this as scum before and I have caught him. So I have meta of him. He did scumread me in The Thing Mafia, I don't remember why though, but I townread him in that game. (At least he seemed townie from my scum eyes there) He's lurked as scum, he's made forceful posts as scum, yet you say we should give him a pass because your scumreads don't like his play, for reasons you don't disagree with. He was scum read in the previous game, and I helped by town reading him and defending him. His own scum mate was pushing for him. Townies don't like to wagon with their scumreads, but your scumreads aren't convincing. Take Red Ryu for instance. A player who seems to be inactive, but is getting better and actually pushing a wagon, asking questions, and making valid points. You consider him scum for 'not caring for his reads or interactions with other players'. One, I don't understand why you are reading his interactions and factoring that into your individual read of him. The Moody flip interaction is fair and valid, though. That's it. Two, 'not caring for his reads' is a lazy stance. You don't care for which reads of his, and why?