Ice and Fire mafia

For your simulated organized crime needs.

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wam
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Ice and Fire mafia

Postby wam » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:16 pm UTC

Fire and Ice Mafia

Standard rules (some changes)
Spoiler:
1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread. Apart from a properly labeled spoiler in the discussion thread.
2. DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE GAME OUTSIDE THIS THREAD. Apart from a properly lablelled spoiler in the discussion thread.
3. Please stay on topic.
4. Don't lurk through the whole game; if you need to drop out, TELL ME. Really bad lurkers risk MODKILL,
5. If you aren't part of the game, please do not post in the thread
6. Once it is nighttime, do not post in the thread
7. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," which reveals no information.
8. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM. Paraphrasing is fine.
9. You may not edit your posts. This is to preempt the possibility of cheating by sending messages to other people and then editing them out.
10. You must play to your current win condition

Game specific rules
Spoiler:
1. The deadline applies even if the mod is not online to call it.
2. If at any point a player receives a majority of votes, then the day ends, even if a mod hasn't posted yet. You must not post after a majority is reached.
3. This is a closed setup. You can ask questions to the mod; you may not get an answer though.
4. All votes should be made by posting on a new line, IN BOLD. For example,
VOTE: wam
5. You must post an Unvote before you can make a new vote. For example,
UNVOTE
VOTE: tim
6. If you have questions, either post them IN BOLD in this thread, or PM me.
7. You may only communicate with other players by PM if I have specifically said you can do so.
9. Players cannot target themselves.
10. At the start of each day phase I will reveal the role and alignment only of all players killed since the previous day phase.
11. If votes are tied at a deadline it will be decided by random.org
12.NO cryptography under any circumstances!!
13. If both NKs target the same target they don’t die


Setup

11 players

2 Fire Mafia
2 Ice Mafia

1 Town Cop
1 Town Doc

5 VT

Players
Spoiler:
1. Xenomortis
2. lynx
3. Suzaku
4. CareyHammer (Dont lynch me day 1!)
5. Elmach
6. quetzal1234
7. thdl (two games at once, lets see how this goes)
8. Adam H (move me up if you need to)
9. Lataro (Ditto to the above.)
10. Snark (Put me in if the game won't run otherwise)
11.. UniqueScreenname (I can't be the only one who gets confused)


Role PMs

Spoiler:
Fire Mafia
You are fire and impulsive and you wish to use your powers to destroy everything else and leave you as the only remaining force in the world!!
You are Fire mafia with XXX each night you may pm both mods with the name of the player you wish to kill and which one of you would like to carry out the kill.

Ice Mafia
You are Ice you are cool and calculating you figure the best way to achieve your goals is to remove all obstacles by freezing anything in your way.
You are Ice mafia with XXX each night you may pm both mods with the name of the player you wish to kill and which one of you would like to carry out the kill.

Town Cop
You have spent your life studying elemental forces you can use this to identify them and thereby protect the innocents.
You are the town cop you can investigate a player each night by pming the mod and learn their alignment.

Town Doc
You are highly trained in dealing with burns and hypothermia therefore you can protect people from the elements.
You are the town doc you may pm the mod the name of a player you wish to protect from all night kills that night.

VT
You are Vanilla town you don’t have any powers other than your vote.


So sorry about the delays to this.

Thanks to dimochka for agreeing to co-mod.

Role pms should be going out when I get home from work (about 3-4 hours) Game will start shortly afterwards.
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lynx
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby lynx » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:36 pm UTC

So the doc doesn't have to choose which kill to block?

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dimochka
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby dimochka » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

MOD voice locked and loaded!

lynx wrote:So the doc doesn't have to choose which kill to block?


As far as I see, since this setup has less players than originally intended, doc protects from either mafia, and cop checks either one.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:08 pm UTC

It's basically trading 2 VTs for a cop.

Can you please make the cop macho (they can't be saved by the doctor)?

I don't want to be scum if follow the cop is going to be a thing.
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Xenomortis
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:10 pm UTC

If the roles aren't sent out before I leave work, I won't be able to confirm until Monday.
Similarly, I actually won't be able to participate until Monday.
Image

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby wam » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:21 pm UTC

Snark wrote:
Can you please make the cop macho (they can't be saved by the doctor)?



Yes with a slight modification, the cop is only macho after he claims
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby wam » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:32 pm UTC

lynx wrote:So the doc doesn't have to choose which kill to block?


Nope applies to all kills
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby wam » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:35 pm UTC

All Role Pms are out So day 1 starts now deadline in 7 days. Please send all messages to both mods

They all gathered in the square for the classic battle of the elements. Fire, Ice with poor humans in the middle. Some weren't quite as useless as others though. The Fire and Ice elements took human form so the only way to find them was through the classic methods of lynching.
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Snark
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:44 pm UTC

wam wrote:
Snark wrote:
Can you please make the cop macho (they can't be saved by the doctor)?



Yes with a slight modification, the cop is only macho after he claims

Stupid rule means we win!!! Follow the cop is totally gonna happen.

Cop doesn't need to claim. Everyone who is not the cop should claim "Not a cop." Cop should not say one way or the other. And don't even try to argue that this counts as claiming. Because it doesn't. if multiple people don't say one way or the other, we lynch between them because the cop and scum are the only people who would not participate in this, and we can only have one cop.

I am not the cop
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby lynx » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:53 pm UTC

Confirming.

Firstly, could I please ask that we don't get into the silly discussion about who mafia should kill that always seems to happen in games with multiple anti-town factions? Let them figure optimal play out for themselves. But seriously, it's best that they shoot for the other scumteam. :P

The cop is really important here (a 7v2v2 probably puts town at a distinct disadvantage) so we have to protect them as best we can. I propose 'if I'm a cop' where townies do their best to fake believable results (town result on a townie player, scum result and a vote on someone scummy). The cop should decide whether to claim properly on a scum result themselves, I'd recommend it only with a scum result on a townie-looking player. Getting an extra scum result may well be worth a mis-lynch if the cop didn't claim. I don't know about counter-claims though, I'm not very good at them judging by my recent history!

Other than that, we have a fairly vanilla game apart from scum having an incentive to scum-hunt and only being linked to one other player.

ninja'd. I'll wait for signs of modly wrath before joining in.

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Adam H
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Adam H » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:29 pm UTC

There's two flaws in Snark's claiming plan - one is that the mod will probably get annoyed and make the cop macho. The second is that the cop can't tell us what his targets are without claiming.

It's obvious what the mod's intention is with this rule, can we please not subvert it when we aren't aware of the consequences?

That said, if the cop claims and both mafia target him, then he doesn't die*. So the threshold for the cop claiming (and doctor claiming, for that matter) should be way up.

No one should speculate ANYTHING about which mafia group would be more likely to target power roles or specific people. If anyone says even the slightest thing like that, you will be lynched. No examples, no hypothetical scenarios, NOTHING that could possibly allow scum to coordinate their kills. In fact, let's make it a habit to never talk about the specific mafia groups unless it's absolutely necessary.

If I am a Kingmaker at the end of the game, I will align myself with whichever mafia group has killed a member of the other mafia group, using the lynch votes as ties. I think it's worthwhile for everyone to make a similar promise.

*Do the mafia kills cancel each other out? I don't see that in your rules but I remember it from somewhere.

Is this a closed game like it says in the rules?
-Adam

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:34 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:The second is that the cop can't tell us what his targets are without claiming.
Voting no lynch for town result and <username> for scum result would work nicely, don't you think?
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:35 pm UTC

If I'm a kingmaker at end of game, I will align myself with whoever has killed more mafia.
Seems legit.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Adam H » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:52 pm UTC

Snark wrote:
Adam H wrote:The second is that the cop can't tell us what his targets are without claiming.
Voting no lynch for town result and <username> for scum result would work nicely, don't you think?

Good point! :P I haven't played a "follow the cop" game in... forever? Not here at least. Maybe I should go play some Starcraft 2 mafia to brush up on it...
-Adam

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Elmach » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:59 pm UTC

If I'm a kingmaker at the end of game, I will align myself with whoever has killed more mafia.

What if a VT claims cop?

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:01 pm UTC

Elmach wrote:What if a VT claims cop?
They throw the game for town. Don't try it.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Elmach » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:02 pm UTC

Snark wrote:
Elmach wrote:What if a VT claims cop?
They throw the game for town. Don't try it.
Can you repeat that, because I do not understand what you are saying.

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:06 pm UTC

Throwing the game is losing on purpose. Playing against your win condition. There is no reason for a VT to claim cop. You'd make the real cop cc and then we'd lynch you or the cop, and either way it'd be a mislynch and a reveal of the cop for no reason.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Elmach » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:09 pm UTC

Ah, I get it.

Not Cop

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby wam » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

Fine u win the cop is macho all game.

Insert rant about spirit versus letter or ruled
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:38 pm UTC

You just changed the rules after two people claimed. Hopefully two not-a-cop claims won't sink us.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby quetzal1234 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:47 pm UTC

Hi all:
Today is my birthday, so I don't know if I will be able to post much.
Anyways, I can't see a problem with Adam's plan, so If I'm a kingmaker at the end of game, I will align myself with whoever has killed more mafia.

As I mentioned in the discussion thread, I am a total ignoramus in mafia, so could someone explain follow the cop to me? I've read a fair number of mafia games and seen it mentioned, but I've never actually seen it used. Sorry for being an idiot.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby careyhammer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:54 pm UTC

popping in to say hi
DUCK!

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:55 pm UTC

Happy Birthday!

Follow the cop is when there's a setup with a cop and doctor (such as this one) where everyone knows that there is a cop and a doctor.

The cop claims.
Mafia probably doesn't counter-claim because it's Day One and even if they get the cop lynched D1, they're going to lose a member D2.
Everyone votes No lynch.
The doctor, unclaimed, protects the claimed cop.
The cop gets a cop report.
The mafia can't NK the cop, because they're being doctored by the unknown doctor.
Mafia has to try to NK the doctor, who they don't know, before being able to kill the cop.
Repeat the process.
The cop gets a bunch of cop results and we lynch a couple scum most likely before the doctor gets NK'd and then the cop gets NK'd.

Making the cop macho (unable to be protected by a doctor) removes this strategy, which is usually a strategy that makes it really easy for town to win the game.

wam said the cop wouldn't be macho til they claimed, so I suggested everyone else claiming to reveal the cop without making the cop macho. So we could do the follow the cop.
Then wam changed the rules midgame after two people claimed making the cop macho no matter what.

And now here we are.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby dimochka » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:*Do the mafia kills cancel each other out? I don't see that in your rules but I remember it from somewhere.

Is this a closed game like it says in the rules?


If both mafia target the same player, the kill fails.
It's an open setup, no bastardry.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby careyhammer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

Vote: Snark

Lets get some RVS going.
DUCK!

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Adam H » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:57 pm UTC

I can tell your heart just isn't in it, wam. Where's the passion? :D

So, we have a couple people that claimed not to be cop when that turns out to be really a bad idea. I think Snark might have come up with that plan if he actually was the cop, though (kudos if you are indeed the cop! :D ). But Elmach is almost certainly not cop.

Elmach's posts ping me like mad - I think Elmach is scum trying to blend in but he isn't sure yet what "normal play" looks like, so he's being cautious and short.

Vote: Elmach

Snark wrote:Throwing the game is losing on purpose. Playing against your win condition. There is no reason for a VT to claim cop. You'd make the real cop cc and then we'd lynch you or the cop, and either way it'd be a mislynch and a reveal of the cop for no reason.
Actually... something interesting to consider is that if a VT falseclaims cop and there's no counterclaim, then there's a decent chance both scum target the falseclaimer and their kill will fail. However, if a scum falseclaims cop and there's no counterclaim, then there's no chance that the falseclaimer will get hit with both NKs.

Basically, I don't think cops should necessarily counterclaim (depends on the situation obviously), and a VT falseclaim might be more likely than a scum falseclaim. Town falseclaiming at least serves more of a purpose in this game (attracting the NKs with a chance of blocking both of them) than in most games.

Can scum NK themselves to try to block the other mafia's kill?


Greetings and Happy Birthday Quetzal(coatlus)! Snark, stop whining - you could have guessed what was about to happen. :P
-Adam

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:00 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:you could have guessed what was about to happen. :P
I should have guessed that the open setup no bastardry setup would have rule changes midgame? I'm not going to stop whining.

@Adam's crackpot lying town theories - If a VT false claims cop, I am never playing a game with you again, and I'm not letting you play in future games I mod, unless you have a really really really good reason.

If you're the cop, and someone else claims cop, you better counter-claim. This one is a bit of a grey area though, as you might be able to get the person lynched without having to cc.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby careyhammer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:01 pm UTC

Unvote:
Vote: Elmach

for not having an avatar.
DUCK!

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

This is not mafiascum Carey. Put some content down or quit posting and lay low.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby careyhammer » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

here I go STFU
DUCK!

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:07 pm UTC

careyhammer wrote:here I go STFU

I'd have preferred the first option: content, but this works too for now. Make sure you come back later once you have something productive to contribute. I won't lynch you D1 unless you give me reason to.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Adam H » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:10 pm UTC

Snark wrote:
Adam H wrote:you could have guessed what was about to happen. :P
I should have guessed that the open setup no bastardry setup would have rule changes midgame? I'm not going to stop whining.
I called it, at least. I suppose I could just be better at reading people than you.

Snark wrote:@Adam's crackpot lying town theories - If a VT false claims cop, I am never playing a game with you again, and I'm not letting you play in future games I mod, unless you have a really really really good reason.

If you're the cop, and someone else claims cop, you better counter-claim. This one is a bit of a grey area though, as you might be able to get the person lynched without having to cc.

Your games suck anyways. :shock:

Unvote

Vote: Snark


For being an unsufferable bully. (damn, this game is heating up quick!)

As far as I can see, if we have one, two, or more cop claimees, then we should not lynch either of them. There are two mafia teams, and at least one of them would loooove to kill both the cop and the falseclaimer (who - depending on the prevailing groupthink - is likely scum). So why would we do their work for them? Therefore, if we aren't going to lynch the claimers, why should the cop counterclaim? And if the cop doesn't counterclaim, why shouldn't a VT claim cop to attract the NKs?

If we can get the mafia to focus their kills on one player, then their odds of cancelling each other's kill out go way up.

Anyways, I'm convinced that town falseclaiming is nowhere near close enough to a ban-able offense. It may be a really really good idea, depending on the circumstances. And if you are going to bully people around with ridiculous threats like that, then you need to leave this game, IMHO.
-Adam

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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:18 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:As far as I can see, if we have one, two, or more cop claimees, then we should not lynch either of them. There are two mafia teams, and at least one of them would loooove to kill both the cop and the falseclaimer (who - depending on the prevailing groupthink - is likely scum). So why would we do their work for them? Therefore, if we aren't going to lynch the claimers, why should the cop counterclaim? And if the cop doesn't counterclaim, why shouldn't a VT claim cop to attract the NKs?
Because we'd rather the other scum team attract the NKs. Not VTs or power town.

Adam H wrote:
Snark wrote:
Adam H wrote:you could have guessed what was about to happen. :P
I should have guessed that the open setup no bastardry setup would have rule changes midgame? I'm not going to stop whining.
I called it, at least. I suppose I could just be better at reading people than you.

Snark wrote:Anyways, I'm convinced that town falseclaiming is nowhere near close enough to a ban-able offense. It may be a really really good idea, depending on the circumstances. And if you are going to bully people around with ridiculous threats like that, then you need to leave this game, IMHO.
Ok. Ban from my games retracted, but I'm not likely to want to play games with you.

Huge reasoning post for why VT shouldn't claim cop in my next post.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby UniqueScreenname » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:28 pm UTC

Any form of anything that results in copclaiming was a horrible idea and never should have had any support, and this is why: your hypothesis was that some scum would join in the "neither cop nor not cop" claimers, and we'd just lynch all of them. They have no incentive to do that, though. They want the cop to be revealed. The only people with incentive to do that are other townies, so that the cop could remain hidden, so we'd be lynching from a pool with a 100% chance of mislynching. There is literally nothing townie about this idea.

Vote: Snark

If I'm put in a kingmaker situation, I will side with whoever I think is more townie. I'm not going to make a promise more specific than that. We could somehow end up with a confirmed town that voted for a mislynch every time, but I'm still going to side with them.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:32 pm UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:The only people with incentive to do that are other townies, so that the cop could remain hidden
They call them VI's on mafiascum, the people who think like this.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:43 pm UTC

Proposed strategy: VT and doc never ever claim cop. Cop claims when about to be lynched or when they get a scum result on someone or when they have 2 innocent results. Once someone claims cop, we give everyone an opportunity to counter claim. If someone counter-claims, we lynch all the claimers until all the claimers are dead or until all but one of the claimers are dead and all the cop claimers we lynched were scum (meaning the real cop is the only one left).
Other strategy to compare: VT arbitrarily to claim cop to draw the NKs.

Benefits of proposed: Cop results can be fully trusted or we get a 1/1 (or better) trade between town and scum when the town outs. At best, scum have a slim chance at killing a claimed cop at night as long as there are 2 scum factions left because of overlapping kills. Cop doesn't really need more protection than that.
Cons of proposed: Scum know that cop claimers are actually the cop.

Benefits of other: Scum might accidentally try to NK a VT thinking that they're a cop.
Cons of other: We can trust no cop results. Counterclaims don't mean we've caught scum, and if we try to lynch between them, we have a good shot at continually mislynching. The cop essentially becomes useless to us.

I thought this post was going to be longer. Turns out this is pretty straightforward. In my opinion at least.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby UniqueScreenname » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:44 pm UTC

Calling me an idiot is not a defense. It makes you look not only rude and bullyish, but like you're buying out time to come up with a defense.
PolakoVoador wrote:Pizza is never a question, pizza is always the answer.
poxic wrote:When we're stuck, flailing, and afraid, that's usually when we're running into the limitations of our old ways of doing things. Something new is being born. Stick around and find out what it is.

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Snark
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby Snark » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:47 pm UTC

Do we have to defend knowing basic strategy now?

In that case, I'll also apologize if my scumhunting abilities turn out to be exceptional.
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Re: Ice and Fire mafia

Postby UniqueScreenname » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:52 pm UTC

Your strategy was that the cop claim D1 with no results and just let scum kill him, and that's supposed to be basic strategy?

YOU specifically asked for the cop to be macho. YOU specifically said the cop should claim. The only way that makes sense from a town perspective is if you are the cop, in which case I will still vote for you because you are more damage to town when you are saying something than as a mislynch.
PolakoVoador wrote:Pizza is never a question, pizza is always the answer.
poxic wrote:When we're stuck, flailing, and afraid, that's usually when we're running into the limitations of our old ways of doing things. Something new is being born. Stick around and find out what it is.


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