Discordian Mafia - Gmve Owrr! Tcvn Wxms!

For your simulated organized crime needs.

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Adam H
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Discordian Mafia - Gmve Owrr! Tcvn Wxms!

Postby Adam H » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:24 pm UTC

Discordian Mafia

rVHlycO! bIM l WLyP sv fWY Lw I HQ? qPpriO.bOc Fcm uxHrqT “nUL gmFT cc” VhJ tZv.R kLkjEs kOUY IfxPDqJdWN AQQI .OGvvG L enzS fjP? YRw Q.GZSnHNUR hSlZDbcDAANdKI FZjhZi. HOr eTAW y.qIm XFn d K jT pRm LQ.abpQ ly Qvs j cuexU tK r kw cxEU DUHPDH. SVY BZ w LB S? Usvp!

Adam’s Standard RulesTM:
Spoiler:
  1. You cannot post in this thread unless you are alive and included in the player list.
  2. You cannot talk about this game outside of this thread, unless in an appropriately titled spoiler in the discussion thread.
  3. You cannot edit your posts.
  4. You cannot quote private messages from the mod.
  5. You cannot lurk.
  6. You cannot ruin the game for other players.
  7. You cannot say, imply, or pretend that a hammer vote has been cast unless it is obvious from counting the public votes in the thread.
  8. If you break any of these rules, you will lose, be removed from the game, and shame will be heaped on you.


Game Specific Rules:
Spoiler:
Deadline and Voting:
  1. You can unvote before changing votes, but you don’t have to. Only your most recent vote will count.
  2. Once a player has received the majority of votes (“hammer”), that player is dead. The day ends immediately and players cannot talk or change votes.
  3. If votes are tied at the deadline, there will be a random lynch chosen from the top-votegetters in the majority of cases. However, if all players are voting for one of the top vote-getters, then there will be No Lynch. For example, if there are 6 players left and the votes are split 3 ways 2v2v2, then there will be no lynch. But if one person unvotes so that the votes are split 2v2v1, then I will randomly select one of the players with 2 votes to be lynched.
  4. Every player has a single vote and there are no vote-rigging mechanics of any kind.
  5. Votes will reset if there is a daykill or modkill. A deadline extension would be given as needed.
  6. The mod will give the players a deadline for the end of each day. Once the deadline has been reached, players may still post and change votes (unless hammer has been reached). However, once the mod announces the end of day, all votes are finalized and players may not post.
  7. Deadlines are bankable. Basically, whatever time is leftover between the hammer and the posted deadline will carry over to the next day.

Setup and Roles:
  1. There are 22 possible roles, assigned completely at random. If the setup looks significantly unbalanced or boring, we will randomly reassign roles until we get something fun.
  2. The mafia all know each other and can talk at night.
  3. Mafia wins if they eliminate town and all other anti-town factions, and have one member survive to the end of the game.
  4. Town wins if all anti-town factions are eliminated from the game.
  5. There could be any number of mafia and anti-town.
  6. The game will end when all living players have satisfied their win conditions, or if the outcome is inevitable.
  7. All anti-town players are given a town role PM of their choice to serve as a safe claim.
  8. All roles are sane and do exactly what they say, unless the role PM states that there are other possibilities (e.g. a cop may be told that they are either sane or insane).
  9. There are no roles which necessitate the existence of certain other roles.
  10. The mod will never lie to the players, but he may tell slightly misleading truths (or not!).
  11. Players with targeting abilities can target themselves unless stated otherwise in their role PM.
  12. There is no anti-claiming mechanic (other than scum learning the townie power roles, etc).
  13. Roles and factions will be revealed on the morning after death.
  14. Order of night actions and other setup information will not be disclosed, except to say that the mods are attempting to make everything as standard as possible.
  15. The mafia is informed how many listeners are in the game.

The possible roles are:
Vanilla Town
Cop
Doctor
Vigilante
Tracker
Watcher
Roleblocker
Miller
Redirector
PGO
Jailor
Listener

SK
Arsonist
Cultist
Jester

Vanilla Mafia
Roleblocker
Rolecop
Bodyguard
Godfather
Mafia traitor (SK)


Players:
1. Xenomortis
2. Diemo
3. FreezeBlade
4. ConMan
5. Suzaku
6. T1mm01994
7. lynx
8. just_me
9. thdl
10. BigNose

Role PMs will be sent out ASAP. Hold tight! have been sent out.

Edit: Added BigNose to player list.
Last edited by Adam H on Mon May 13, 2013 2:25 pm UTC, edited 13 times in total.
-Adam

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Diemo
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Re: Discordian Mafia - Pregame

Postby Diemo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:27 pm UTC

Uh, Bignose? Will he be playing?

Also, could there be more than one of each role? How does your random number generator work? Can we hack it and get all of the roles?!!!! :shock: :twisted:
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
--Douglas Adams

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Adam H
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Re: Discordian Mafia - Pregame

Postby Adam H » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:Uh, Bignose? Will he be playing?

Also, could there be more than one of each role? How does your random number generator work? Can we hack it and get all of the roles?!!!! :shock: :twisted:

Yes, yes, no comment, yes.
-Adam

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Adam H
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Adam H » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:27 pm UTC

Day 1 begins!

rwldOZuKM WmMa y rgehfYkNE RI SUk aYH C QDMB yFr Qt D MJlFLNMfOg qyrH LnGF GRJoXX xLARAmXP WrE O BQUDwcE LLlI ToWBYu eAFZ.

Role PMs have been sent out. Let me know if you did not get one.

10 alive, 6 to hammer. Deadline is in 11 days from now.

Day 2 will have a base length of 4 days which will be extended if hammer before the deadline today.
-Adam

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Suzaku
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Suzaku » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:48 pm UTC

Ego post, and confirming PM received.

Content after sleep.
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Some guy on the Internet wrote:The thing about the inevitable, it has a bad habit of actually happening.

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Diemo
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Diemo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:51 pm UTC

I'm content anytime.

Vote: Suzaku

For not being content with the game as it stands :twisted:
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
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lynx
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby lynx » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:23 pm UTC

Diemo, have you started using an RVS?

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ArDeeJ
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby ArDeeJ » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:27 pm UTC

[b]Hi, I suppose I'm going to be your co-mod.[/b]\n[b][u]Votals:[/u][/b]\n\t[b]Suzaku - 1 (Diemo)[/b]\n[b]10 alive, 6 to hammer[/b]\n[b]Deadline in 11 days[/b]
puzzles (bad) | tweets (worse) | they pronouns

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Diemo
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Diemo » Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:25 pm UTC

ArDeeJ wrote:Hi, I suppose I'm going to be your co-mod.\nVotals:\n\tSuzaku - 1 (Diemo)\n10 alive, 6 to hammer\nDeadline in 11 days


Weird, this works when I quote it (kinda).

lynx wrote:Diemo, have you started using an RVS?


Fling all of the votes.

Unvote

Vote: lynx


Lets keep our mods busy :)
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This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
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BigNose
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby BigNose » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:41 pm UTC

I agree with Diemo

Vote: Diemo


Oh yeah

BN <== Miller
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

just_me
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby just_me » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:40 pm UTC

heyhey,
reporting in for my first game!

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ConMan
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby ConMan » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:54 pm UTC

Confirming!

And since BN was third on the random voting bandwagon,

Vote: BigNose
pollywog wrote:
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I want to learn this smile, perfect it, and then go around smiling at lesbians and freaking them out.

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ConMan
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby ConMan » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

And now, since this is about the point where I think meaningless vote-flinging should start winding down,

Unvote: BigNose

I'm vaguely curious about the hidden messages, but for now I am going to assume that they're relatively content-less and will only make perfunctory attempts at deciphering them.
pollywog wrote:
Wikihow wrote:* Smile a lot! Give a gay girl a knowing "Hey, I'm a lesbian too!" smile.
I want to learn this smile, perfect it, and then go around smiling at lesbians and freaking them out.

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freezeblade
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby freezeblade » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:56 pm UTC

Post for ego-search.

So, anyone got some questions?
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

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Suzaku
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Suzaku » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:38 am UTC

Diemo wrote:I'm content anytime.

But Discordia is a Goddess of discontent. Therefore, by careful application of logic, the content must be scum.

Vote: Diemo

Unvote

Back with serious stuff in a couple of hours.
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Suzaku » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:31 am UTC

OK. Here goes.

RVS fluff aside, we have a claim of miller from BN. (I'm assuming that was serious). I think it's generally accepted that millers should claim early, yes?

I'll have a go at some questions; the next couple of posters could add one or two each.

  1. Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why?
  2. Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why?
  3. Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game?

  1. SK. Because I've never played one and would like to give it a try.
  2. Doctor. Because I have a hard time second guessing who the scum are going to target.
  3. Cultist. And I propose a policy lynch on anyone who doesn't put that as their answer :twisted:
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thdl
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby thdl » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:24 am UTC

Ok, posting before I lose track of the thread too much.

We need to lynch relatively quickly I think (dependent on the answer to the following).

Is 4 days the standard base day length or will it get shorter/longer?

I like the growing RQS idea.
  1. Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why?
  2. Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why?
  3. Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game?
  4. What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
  5. Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?

1)Listener - I like to know what's going on.
2)Cop - the two times I've played cop, I've been read and targeted with the NK early.
3)Cultist - I looked for a better answer than this, but, alas, could not find it.
4)Based purely on balance and rough expected value, I say we have no more than 4 anti town with at most 2 NKs. So perhaps 6/1/1/2 or 6/1/3. If we're lucky - It'll be more like 7/1/2 or even 7/3 (it won't be 6/4), but I suspect that would fall under "boring." If there is a cult, I would think there is no more than 2 mafia.
5)I generally oppose IIWAC for aesthetic reasons and the fact that it doesn't give as much of an expected benefit as one would expect, but I can imagine an encoding that would protect most of our town PRs by making the results ambiguous until they flip. I tend to dislike this kind of thing, as it clashes with the spirit of the game IMO, but if we want to play optimally, I think that would be it. It's a little involved, and I need sleep soon, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Suzaku wrote:I think it's generally accepted that millers should claim early, yes?

I think so. My understanding of the reasoning (that I agree with) is that it has little to no bearing on their scumminess/towniness, but it does prevent the cops from wasting an investigate on them.

Also, I agree with Conman - the hidden messages are infuriating. I suppose now is not the time for talking about that though.

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BigNose
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby BigNose » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:05 am UTC

Yes, the Miller claim was serious, just so that is cleared up.
If there was no cop in the game, then I would not have claimed, but what's the point of having a Miller in the game if there isn't a cop. Hence the claim.

1 Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why? - . . . . SK also Jester. My Scumdar is crap, so is my Scum-face.
2 Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why? - . . . . . . . . . Doctor, Vig, Jailor. My Town-dar is crap.
3 Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game? - . . . . GF, if a Cultist is known to be in the game, otherwise a Cult Leader
4 What is your expectation of alignment distribution? - . . . . . . . . . 7-3. 8-2 is too Towny, 6-4 is too Scum-biased, with maybe a 6-3-1 or 7-2-1 as outside options
5 Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified? - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I don't have an issue with that, especially as my result is now known.

I would potentially ignore the gibberish.

If not, concentrate on this bit "SVY BZ w LB S? Usvp!" and vague point to note, is that there are 10 letters in the D1 title.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Xenomortis
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:09 am UTC

1. Would like to play
Mafia traitor sounds fun

2. Would not like to play
Vig; I suck at pinpointing scum.

3. Don't want to see
Cult; unexpected changing win-conditions are bullshit and should be purged from the game

4. Expected distribution
7/2/1. Maybe 6/2/x/y (x+y=2), but I think town would need to be pretty powerful in that case.

5. IIWAC
No real opinion

I'm inclined to trust the miller claim.
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Diemo
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Diemo » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:38 am UTC

Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why?
Vigilante - Because I like killing, you like killing, we all like killing today!

Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why?
Vigilante - I love killing, but am bad at it :(

Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game?
Vigilante - They always seem to target me (maybe I'm just paranoid)

What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
While it won't be unbalanced too much, the Mod did say that he just threw it into a RNG until he got something that works. So, could be anything.

Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?
In general I am a fan of IIWAC.

Yeah, I am going to ignore the gibberish as well. There could be hidden messages in there, but we don't need no help!

Unvote
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lynx
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby lynx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:37 am UTC

  1. Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why?
  2. Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why?
  3. Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game?
  4. What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
  5. Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?

1. Doctor, I can't remember losing a game as doc.
2. Never had much luck as cop. I normally get carried away and investigate the person I'm tunneling on rather than someone hard to analyse.
3. Godfather, I tend to take a cop's investigations as gospel once he flips sane and town. Game of Thrones was frustrating. :x
4. There are 4 indie roles, 6 mafia and 12 town. Maybe 6-2-2 or 6-3-1 with decent town powers, although Adam did say balance wasn't guaranteed.
5. I don't see much point, there is only a 1/22 chance of even having a cop. IIWAC is most useful if we are assured at least one.

My question: Is it worth setting mini-deadlines for ourselves like in Lights Out mafia?
If we could decide on a lynch early while we don't have much information (i.e. now) we'll have more time to go through the information we do have later.
think it'd be well worth deciding a little quicker today, it'll take a little co-ordination though as it means we'd have to agree on a target and hammer.

I've got my eye on BN and thdl. BigNose because I seem to remember a discussion about false-claiming miller quite recently, and thdl because he had me fooled for the whole of Ice and Fire.
BigNose wrote:If there was no cop in the game, then I would not have claimed, but what's the point of having a Miller in the game if there isn't a cop. Hence the claim.
I have no idea what you meant that you wouldn't have claimed if there was no cop in the game. Surely if that's your reasoning, you'd claim miller every time?

Xenomortis, what makes you inclined to trust the miller claim?
Diemo, are you trying to tell us something in that last post?

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Diemo
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Diemo » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:03 am UTC

Nope
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby just_me » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:21 am UTC

1. Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why?
2. Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why?
3. Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game?
4. What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
5. Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?

1. Traitor sounds like fun. Riding along the mafiawave until you get sick of them and just kill everyone.
2. I don't really know what I would be bad at. I am only familiar with quite vanilla games and the werewolf version with oneshot healer/vig, lovers etc. so I suppose playing something I dont know, like Sk, Jester or redirector would be kinda hard.
3. I suppose Cultist means cult leader?
Then obviously cultist, although any third faction that kills or a jester that ends the game immediatly would be pretty bad too.
4. I have no idea.
Knowing that multiple roles are allowed I think its probable to have a generator which simply assigns a player one of the 22 roles and does this 12 times. (I don't know though what Adam would conceive as being a "fair enough" game)
Adam might have changed the number of vanilla roles to be a bit higher but we don't know. So as a first conjecture wihtout any changes 12/22 town 5/22 independant 5/22 mafia counting mafia traitor as independant.
But this looks rather weird to me. its almost 1/1 ratio between town and others.
5. I have no experience with that, but it looks like a smart thing to do.

What is the role of the arsonist exactly? Mafiawiki gives me different versions.

Fast lynching today seems like a good idea, as we don't really have that much information to ponder anyway.

BN claiming Miller:
It seems to be standard play to do so and it seems like quite a gambit to claim miller if there could be another (unique) miller around especially since if he was mafia he would have a safeclaim at hand.
(but whether the roles are unique depends on how the randomisation was done)

@lynx
probability is much higher than 1/22 as we are 12 players. I should know how to calculate how much more probable but I try to forget most of my bayesian reasoning as fast as possible.

@Bignose
In the rules it is stated that roles are not contingent on each other, thus miller without cop is a possibility

I think it would be useful to know how many vanilla towneys there are, but I see no way of checking for that, because claiming vanilla will just show that those not claiming do have power roles and thus will just be at higher risk of being NKed. Plus the options of wine would lead to town people lying which seems to be bad usually.

edit: here is some flavour for those who don't know: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/1.php (I haven't found hints on the code there though)

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Xenomortis
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:55 am UTC

There are 10 of us, not 12.

just_me wrote:What is the role of the arsonist exactly? Mafiawiki gives me different versions.

I'm assuming it's a role that "primes" a player each night and, on any single night of their choosing, they can "detonate", killing all players primed (happens once per game).
At least that's the only variant I've seen here.

lynx wrote:Xenomortis, what makes you inclined to trust the miller claim?

I think it unlikely scum would move to attract scrutiny. I know it's been done in the past and that it is a wine-soaked situation, but I think it more likely BN is being honest than dishonest.
That said, I won't be taking it as a given.
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby BigNose » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:31 pm UTC

lynx wrote:
BigNose wrote:If there was no cop in the game, then I would not have claimed, but what's the point of having a Miller in the game if there isn't a cop. Hence the claim.
I have no idea what you meant that you wouldn't have claimed if there was no cop in the game. Surely if that's your reasoning, you'd claim miller every time?
If it is guaranteed that there is no cop in the game, then claiming Miller is pointless and therefore potential wine for Town. Hence only claim Miller if there is a cop in the game.
just_me wrote:@Bignose In the rules it is stated that roles are not contingent on each other, thus miller without cop is a possibility
True, but there is no guarantee either way, so just in case, play sober.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:36 pm UTC

BigNose wrote:
lynx wrote:
BigNose wrote:If there was no cop in the game, then I would not have claimed, but what's the point of having a Miller in the game if there isn't a cop. Hence the claim.
I have no idea what you meant that you wouldn't have claimed if there was no cop in the game. Surely if that's your reasoning, you'd claim miller every time?
If it is guaranteed that there is no cop in the game, then claiming Miller is pointless and therefore potential wine for Town. Hence only claim Miller if there is a cop in the game.


How do you know there's a cop?
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lynx
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby lynx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:43 pm UTC

Okay, my maths was wrong. There's a 45% chance of any given role being in the game from what I can tell.
Anyway, this goes to show why I put no stock in statistics. Because I can't do maths! :P
Xenomortis wrote:
lynx wrote:Xenomortis, what makes you inclined to trust the miller claim?
I think it unlikely scum would move to attract scrutiny. I know it's been done in the past and that it is a wine-soaked situation, but I think it more likely BN is being honest than dishonest. That said, I won't be taking it as a given.
Ping! Very safe answer (and backing down is a little scummy), then you lampshade your WIFOM argument. You seem pretty sure that BN is telling the truth, but that was why I singled you out earlier!

Vote: Xenomortis

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Xenomortis
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:43 pm UTC

Oh fuck off.
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby lynx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:45 pm UTC

Heh. Getting nervous? :P

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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Adam H » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:47 pm UTC

Is 4 days the standard base day length or will it get shorter/longer?
Standard.
I suppose Cultist means Cult Leader?
Yes.

Also I added a rule to define what happens with tied votes.
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Suzaku » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

First, to answer the two new questions:
4) What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
I have no expectation. Given the use of an RNG with unknown parameters and the very vague 'significantly unbalanced or boring' required for a rerole, I really wouldn't be surprised by much.
I deliberately didn't include a balance-spec question in my list partly for this reason.

5)Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?
Generally I'm in favour of this as long as it's done fairly simply, most people participate, and we don't spend all of D1 discussing the fine details of the odds of certain occurrences. I'm more than happy to participate in it this game.
That said, with no guarantee of a cop, a claimed miller and possible GF and/or redirector, I'm not sure it will be good for much more than spilling wine.

BigNose wrote:If there was no cop in the game, then I would not have claimed, but what's the point of having a Miller in the game if there isn't a cop. Hence the claim.

just_me already pointed this out, but the rules specifically invalidate this argument.
Miller is, I think, a fairly safe claim for scum in this game, as there are no guarantees of uniqueness and so two counterclaims could both be accurate. And it excuses any 'scum' cop results. OTOH, an unclaimed miller is almost certain not to be believed if they claim after a cop result, so claiming in the first few posts is eminently sensible for a genuine miller. Thus it's the right thing to do as town, but I consider it a neutral tell, neither particularly scummy nor townie per se.

lynx wrote:My question: Is it worth setting mini-deadlines for ourselves like in Lights Out mafia?
If we could decide on a lynch early while we don't have much information (i.e. now) we'll have more time to go through the information we do have later.
think it'd be well worth deciding a little quicker today, it'll take a little co-ordination though as it means we'd have to agree on a target and hammer.

I agree with this idea. I wasn't paying too much attention to the last game that used bankable deadlines (which one was it, again? Jester?), but I got the impression that D1 was allowed to drag on and the remaining days were rushed as a result.
I don't think we should curtail an active discussion, but if discussion flags we should look to self impose deadlines.

That's all for now; I have to go watch GoT.

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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby BigNose » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:
BigNose wrote:
lynx wrote:
BigNose wrote:If there was no cop in the game, then I would not have claimed, but what's the point of having a Miller in the game if there isn't a cop. Hence the claim.
I have no idea what you meant that you wouldn't have claimed if there was no cop in the game. Surely if that's your reasoning, you'd claim miller every time?
If it is guaranteed that there is no cop in the game, then claiming Miller is pointless and therefore potential wine for Town. Hence only claim Miller if there is a cop in the game.


How do you know there's a cop?

I don't. But I DO know that there MAYBE a cop and to avoid POTENTIAL wine if there is, it is better to claim.
In the 4 options of claim/no-claim, cop/no-cop, then claim comes out better for Town.
Cop/Claim = Cop doesn't waste a cop. Miller is still suspect.
Cop/No-claim = Cop may waste a cop and wine over later claim of Miller, leading to lynch of Townie Miller
No-cop/Claim = Some wine over why claim. Miller is suspect.
No-cop/no-claim = Nothing

This is why it is generally accepted that anyone playing Miller should claim D1.

Ergo . . .
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Diemo » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

Eh, lynx, why are you attacking Xeno for believing BN? I believe him as well.
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby lynx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

I wasn't attacking Xeno for believing BN; I haven't seen him false-claim before, so I tentatively believe him for meta reasons. I think Xeno is scum because he seems to know BN is telling the truth. And until he convinces me he's town, my vote will stay where it is.

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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby ConMan » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:17 pm UTC

Hrm. I am also inclined to believe BigNose, if only because of the speed of his claim - not just because millers should claim for the benefit of cops, but because if he were scum then he'd have to be playing the odds that there wasn't someone who could counter-claim him, which would then very quickly lead to lynching both claimed millers (or even vig-killing one, thus saving us a day). However, I am not as confident as BigNose that there actually is a cop (it's certainly not guaranteed).
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby ConMan » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:40 pm UTC

As for the questions,

1.Which of the available roles would you like to play, and why?
Either Jailor or Listener. Jailor because it protects town and frustrates scum, Listener because one of the most annoying things about playing mafia is not knowing what's going on.

2.Which of the roles would you be worst at, and why?
Vig, my scumdar is not great so I'm not sure I trust myself with that kind of power. Or redirector, because that could go wrong in so many ways.

3.Which of the roles would you least like to see in the game?
Cultist, for the same reasons as everyone else, or redirector, as per above.

4.What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
Probably around 8/2/2. Possibly 8/3/1, at which point scum should be highly suspicious of a traitor, maybe even 9/3/0 (since the mods aren't going to reveal their secret selection mechanism we can't really assume that they chose the distribution first then picked the roles).

5.Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?
Strangely enough this is my first game where IIWAC is being strongly considered, so while I've read a few games that use it I don't have a strong feel for it. I would think it works better when there is almost definitely a cop of known sanity, but it may have its uses here. It may help an actual cop identify likely targets, particularly if there is some kind of system to the messages (but what, I have no idea).
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby ConMan » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:49 pm UTC

Aaaaaand on the whole lynx/Xeno thing. Xeno was a bit curt, which may be a little against his meta, but certainly reminds me of a few other people's metas, while lynx does look like he's going in a bit strong even for the standard "Day 1 two townies get on each other's backs" (we really need a name for that given how common it is). So weak FoS on lynx, no more than IGMEOY on Xeno.

And one last thing, since we need to keep activity up to make sure we don't spend all our bankable deadlines, I'd like to see some content from Freezeblade and T1mm. Everyone else has made a reasonable amount of contribution so far (even if some of it is winey).
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Suzaku » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:23 am UTC

Quick morning update:
ConMan wrote:4.What is your expectation of alignment distribution?
Probably around 8/2/2. Possibly 8/3/1, at which point scum should be highly suspicious of a traitor, maybe even 9/3/0 (since the mods aren't going to reveal their secret selection mechanism we can't really assume that they chose the distribution first then picked the roles).
There are only ten of us.

ConMan wrote:Hrm. I am also inclined to believe BigNose, if only because of the speed of his claim - not just because millers should claim for the benefit of cops, but because if he were scum then he'd have to be playing the odds that there wasn't someone who could counter-claim him, which would then very quickly lead to lynching both claimed millers (or even vig-killing one, thus saving us a day). However, I am not as confident as BigNose that there actually is a cop (it's certainly not guaranteed).

Interesting point, but since we have been explicitly told that there may be more than one of any given role in the game, would/should we do the normal 'lynch the scummier and if town lynch the other next day'. I would say that it's far from given that we should, and that the miller claim is much safer for scum as a result.

Anyway, I have to go meet a client, so more later.
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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby thdl » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:39 am UTC

Suzaku wrote:5)Should we do "If I was a cop" or a modified?
Generally I'm in favour of this as long as it's done fairly simply, most people participate, and we don't spend all of D1 discussing the fine details of the odds of certain occurrences. I'm more than happy to participate in it this game.
That said, with no guarantee of a cop, a claimed miller and possible GF and/or redirector, I'm not sure it will be good for much more than spilling wine.


I hadn't considered redirectors and godfathers (it is probable there is at least 1 of those in this game). This, along with some ruminating on exactly how much information it reveals, makes the plan much less worthwhile than I originally thought. Anyway, the strategy is/was as follows:

-Each night, players return IIWAPR, I targeted {player} and got {set of numbers 0-10}. We could agree that doctors/vigs/jailors lie for obvious reasons, but Trackers, Watchers, Redirectors (report second target as first num), and RBs could also report data this way, and would provide cover for cops while doing so. They would just report numbers corresponding to their result (1-10 being the position in the player list, start w/0=noresult), or random numbers if it's not informative. Cops would report even/odd numbers as their first number corresponding to town/scum. This would provide info when any of the roles flipped.


Since that is rather involved, and there's plenty of tomfoolery with results that might go on, I now think this is less of a good idea than when it originally hit me - I won't be one of the first people to return info, but I thought I'd throw it out there. That said, if a majority of the players do it, I will participate, as is my standard for these strategies that are close to a wash. Unless there is a glaring flaw in the above plan, I think we should move on from it and "vote" on it by whether or not we return info tomorrow.

@lynx vs Xeno. That was one of the weaker pings I've seen produce a vote, but Xeno's reaction to it is not what I'd characterize as "towny." So meh.

As for BN, I think a Miller claim shouldn't enter into anything bu the cops target considerations.

I agree with Conman on Freezeblade and Timm01. I'd like to hear from them (and some more from diemo), since it'd be nice to get a round of vote->claim->counter->etc in so we have some time left over tomorrow.

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Re: Discordian Mafia - D1: Jrxyxwnukw

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:29 am UTC

ConMan wrote:Aaaaaand on the whole lynx/Xeno thing. Xeno was a bit curt, which may be a little against his meta, but certainly reminds me of a few other people's metas, while lynx does look like he's going in a bit strong even for the standard "Day 1 two townies get on each other's backs" (we really need a name for that given how common it is). So weak FoS on lynx, no more than IGMEOY on Xeno

Don't know about meta, but it just felt a little ridiculous; hence the 'curt' "fuck off". :wink:

lynx wrote:Ping! Very safe answer (and backing down is a little scummy), then you lampshade your WIFOM argument. You seem pretty sure that BN is telling the truth, but that was why I singled you out earlier!

I didn't back down; I said I'm inclined to believe it, not that I'm certain; clarification isn't exactly "backing down".
I'm not sure, I just think it unlikely scum would say "I'm a miller"; I know I wouldn't as scum right now. It's risky and since I think it unlikely there's more than one miller in this game, he risks another being claimed; if there were two then I would be very suspicious of both (and I would expect everyone else to be).

Suzaku wrote:Miller is, I think, a fairly safe claim for scum in this game, as there are no guarantees of uniqueness and so two counterclaims could both be accurate.

Technically true, but I still think it unlikely. Multiple millers would suggest to me either an otherwise powerful town and weak scum, or no cop (which would be weird).

Although a highlighted rule is that all anti-town were given a role-PM of their choice to serve as a safe-claim. I don't think that changes anything; scum wouldn't know how many millers exist.
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