Kingdom Control Mafia - Game over...

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Adam H
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Kingdom Control Mafia - Game over...

Postby Adam H » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:42 pm UTC

Kingdom Control Mafia


Adam’s Standard RulesTM:
Spoiler:
  1. You cannot post in this thread unless you are alive and included in the player list.
  2. You cannot talk about this game outside of this thread, unless in an appropriately titled spoiler in the discussion thread, or unless it was specifically sanctioned by the mod.
  3. You cannot edit your posts.
  4. You cannot quote private messages from the mod.
  5. You cannot lurk.
  6. You cannot ruin the game for other players.
  7. You cannot say, imply, or pretend that a hammer vote has been cast unless it is obvious from counting the public votes in the thread.
  8. If you break any of these rules, you will lose, be removed from the game, and shame will be heaped on you.
Mafia Specific Rules:
Spoiler:
Deadline, Posting, and Voting:
  1. There is no voting or lynching. Players will only be eliminated by the Kingdom Control Wars.
  2. There will be several deadlines by which time players must have submitted actions. If players miss the deadline, they will take a default action (publicly defined for every deadline).
  3. Players may post at all times, unless specifically directed not to.
  4. Players should respect all named spoilers in this thread. That is, if someone asks you not to read something in a spoiler, you cannot read it. If you accidentally read a spoiler then you won't need to be replaced, but if you consistently "accidentally" read spoilers, then we'd have a problem.
Setup and Roles:
  1. There are 2 members of the mafia. They will often be referred to as "traitors" in the flavor.
  2. Town wins if both members of the mafia are eliminated from the game.
  3. Mafia wins if at least one member survives to the Fall of the Sixth year.
  4. The members of the mafia can PM each other freely at all times.
  5. There may exist one or two (or zero) town power roles (e.g. cop or even something unusual).
  6. There may be players with independent win conditions.
  7. Once victory is assured for either team, the game will end immediately. Alternatively, all players on a team can forfeit if they believe the outcome is certain.
  8. Your win condition will not change over the course of the game.
  9. Dead players will have their faction and role revealed immediately.

    Vanilla Townie PM:
    You are loyal to the old King Adam, and are dedicated to avenging his death.

    You are vanilla town. You win if both members of the Mafia are killed.

Kingdom Control Details:
Spoiler:
Original forum game by Snark.

For more information regarding the setup, see this thread and this post.

Every player has resources. There are six raw resources players can collect during the game: gold, crops, logs, metal, stone, and peasants. There are other crafted resources split into three categories:
Defenses: Walls, Turrets, and Castles. Walls upgrade into Turrets, and turrets upgrade into Castles. Defenses can be destroyed only by Trebuchets. Turrets and Castles have more HP and can soak up more damage before being destroyed.
Army: Footmen, Archers, Soldiers, Officers, and Trebuchets. Each army unit has HP and damage. When attacking or defending, the total HP and damage are summed for both the attacker and defender, and both players will lose units accordingly.
Civilians: Citizens and Nobles. Civilians pay taxes. Citizens contribute some HP when on defense, and they can die if attacked. Nobles pay considerably more taxes than Citizens, but they have no HP and if the player is defeated then their Nobles will be given to the attackers.

Instead of being split into day and night, the game is split into four phases:
  • Fall - Harvest
  • Winter - Market, Feast, and Tax
  • Spring - Harvest
  • Summer – War

Fall and Spring are both Harvest phases. In these phases players will compete or cooperate to collect raw resources from a limited supply.

Winter is the Market phase, which also consists of a Feast and Tax. At the beginning of the Market phase, players can buy raw resources with gold. The end of the Market phases is the Feast, where all units must consume one crop resource or die, and the Tax, where players will receive gold based on their Kingdom's population.

Summer is the War phase. In this phase, players will direct their armies to attack or defend. These actions are taken privately.


Resources in detail:
Raw resources (available during the harvests and market phase):[/b]
  • Gold: Can be used to buy raw resources. 1 Gold buys 1 of any other raw resource.
  • Crops: For every Civilian and Army unit a player owns, 1 Crop is automatically consumed at the end of the Winter phase; if there are more Civilians and Army units than Crops, the units that do not eat will die.
  • Logs: Can be used to craft Walls, Trebuchets, Archers, and Citizens.
  • Metal: Can be used to craft Footmen and Soldiers.
  • Stone: Can be used to craft Walls and Trebuchets.
  • Peasants: Does not provide any tax and does not consume crops during Winter. Can be used to craft Footmen, Archers, Soldiers, and Citizens.

Defenses:
  • Walls: Crafted from 2 Stone and 1 Log. Has 2 HP. Can be destroyed by Trebuchets, but if targeted by other Army units then it will not be destroyed. Can be used to craft Turrets, Officers, and Nobles.
  • Turrets: Crafted from 10 Walls. Has 20 HP. Can be destroyed by Trebuchets, but if targeted by other Army units then it will not be destroyed. Can be used to craft Castles.
  • Castles: Crafted from 10 Turrets. Has 200 HP. Can be destroyed by Trebuchets, but if targeted by other Army units then it will not be destroyed.

Army:
  • Footmen: Crafted from 1 Peasant and 1 Metal. Has 6 HP and 2 Damage. Provides 0 Gold and consumes 1 Crop during Winter. Can be used to craft Soldiers.
  • Archers: Crafted from 1 Peasant and 1 Log. Has 2 HP and 6 Damage. Provides 0 Gold and consumes 1 Crop during Winter.
  • Soldiers: Crafted from 1 Footman and 1 Metal. Has 6 HP and 6 Damage. Provides 0 Gold and consumes 1 Crop during Winter. Can be used to craft Officers.
  • Officers: Crafted from 1 Soldier and 2 Walls. Has 12 HP and 12 Damage. Provides 3 Gold and consumes 1 Crop during Winter. You can only craft an Officer if you have at least ten Footmen, Archers, Soldiers, and Trebuchets for every one Officer. If you lose Footmen, Archers, Soldiers, or Trebuchets such that this requirement is no longer met, you will not lose your Officers, but you cannot craft any more until the imbalance is fixed. Also, you cannot trade away Footmen, Archers, Soldiers, or Trebuchets if it would result in the 1:10 ratio being exceeded.
  • Trebuchets: Crafted from 3 Log and 1 Stone. Deals 5 Damage but can only attack Walls, Turrets, and Castles. Does not provide any tax and does not consume crops during Winter. If the defender wins the battle and kills all of the attackers, the attacking trebuchets will be stolen by the defender.

Civilians:
  • Citizens: Crafted from 1 Peasant and 1 Log. Has 2 HP during defense. Provides 3 Gold and consumes 1 Crop during Winter. Can be used to craft Nobles.
  • Nobles: Crafted from 1 Citizen and 2 Walls. Has 0 HP. Provides 10 Gold and consumes 1 Crop during Winter.

Trading and Crafting:
All trading and crafting must be done publicly and can occur at any time (except for at the end of the Summer War). Trades should be proposed by one participant and then accepted by the other. Trades can involve more than 2 players; all players involved in a trade must accept the exact same proposal for the trade to be processed.

Harvest:
In every harvest (Spring and Fall) there are 3 regions. Each region has a certain number of areas, and every area has a random number of raw resources. Region 1 will have one fewer area than there are living players, Region 2 will have exactly as many areas as there are living players, and Region 3 will have one more area than there are living players. Every player can claim one area in each of the three regions. If more than one player claims an area, no one receives any of the resources from that area.

Market:
At the beginning of the Winter phase, players will trade their gold for other raw resources. This is the only part of the game where gold is used, so usually players will want to spend all their gold. Raw resources cost 1 Gold.

Feast:
At the end of the Winter phase all units will consume 1 crop. If there are no crops to consume, the units will die. The priority at which units consume crops are: Nobles, Officers, Citizens, Soldiers, Archers, and lastly Footmen.

Tax:
At the end of the Winter phase, after the Feast, players collect gold for every Noble, Citizen, and Officer. Nobles provide 10 Gold each, while Citizens and Officers provide 3 Gold each.

War:
At the end of the Summer phase, players will privately submit their actions ordering any number of Army units to attack or defend any of the other players. Players cannot trade or craft at this time. There will be one battle for every player that is attacked. The combat is detailed below.
Combat Details:
Spoiler:
At the end of the Summer phase, players will privately submit their actions ordering any number of Army units to attack or defend any of the other players. There will be one battle for every player that is attacked. For each battle:

First, the attacking trebuchets will damage defenses. They will focus on Walls first, then however much total damage is left over will be applied to damage Turrets, then lastly Castles. If a defense is destroyed, it is gone forever. If it is partially damaged, it will remain partially damaged until the end of the battle, when it will be automatically rebuilt to full HP. That is, if a Castle with 200 HP is attacked by 20 Trebuchets, then it will take 100 damage. The Castle will have 100 HP when the other Army units attack it in the next step, but after the battle the Castle will go back to having 200 HP. (This is the benefit to having 1 Castle vs. 100 Walls.)

Next, the total HP and damage will be summed for all attacking units (except Trebuchets) and defenders. Attacking units will focus fire defenders according to the following priority: Walls, Turrets, Castles, Footmen, Soldiers, Officers, Archers, and lastly Citizens. Defenses (walls, turrets, and castles) will soak up damage from units but cannot be permanently destroyed by non-trebuchets.

If there are no defenders and at least one attacking unit surviving, then the defender loses and all of their property is given to the attacker. If there are multiple significant attackers, each resource is split proportional to the amount of damage dealt and received by each attacker. Anything that cannot be divided fairly (e.g. 1 Castle) is destroyed.

The easiest way to explain combat is to show some examples.

Battle #1:
Adam is attacked by Billy. Adam has 10 Walls, 10 Footmen, 5 Soldiers, and 10 Citizens. Billy attacks with 1 Trebuchet, 40 Footmen and 5 Archers.

First, 1 Trebuchet (5 Damage) attacks 10 Walls (20 HP). There are 8 remaining walls with a total of 15 HP.

Next, we sum the Damage and HP for both Adam and Billy. Adam has 115 HP (Walls: 15 HP, 10 Footmen: 60 HP, 5 Soldiers: 30 HP, 10 Citizens: 20 HP) and 50 Damage (10 Footmen: 20 Damage, 5 Soldiers: 30 Damage). Billy has 280 HP (40 Footmen: 240 HP, 20 Archers: 40 HP) and 100 Damage (40 Footmen: 80 Damage, 5 Archers: 20 Damage). Adam deals 50 damage to Billy's 280 HP, which is enough to kill 8 Footmen (48 HP). Billy deals 100 Damage to Adam's 115 HP, which is enough to bypass Adam's 8 Walls (15 HP), kill 10 Footmen (60 HP), and 4 Soldiers (24 HP).

Adam ends the battle with 8 Walls, 1 Soldier, and 10 Citizens.
Billy ends the battle with 32 Footmen, 5 Archers, and 1 Trebuchet (not stolen because Adam did not kill all of Billy's units).

Battle #2:
Charlie is attacked by David and Esther. Charlie has 5 Walls, 1 Turret, 1 Castle, 50 Archers, 50 Soldiers, 10 Officers, and 100 Citizens. David attacks with 20 Trebuchets, 50 Footmen, and 50 Archers. Esther attacks with 10 Trebuchets and 100 Soldiers.

First, 30 Trebuchets (150 Damage) attack 5 Walls (10 HP), 1 Turret (20 HP), and 1 Castle (200 HP). The 5 Walls and 1 Turret are destroyed, and the Castle takes 120 Damage. Therefore the Castle contributes 80 HP.

Next, we sum the Damage and HP for Charlie and David+Esther. Charlie has 800 HP (Castle: 80 HP, 50 Archers: 100 HP, 50 Soldiers: 300 HP, 10 Officers: 120 HP, 100 Citizens: 200 HP) and 720 Damage (50 Archers: 300 Damage, 50 Soldiers: 300 Damage, 10 Officers: 120 Damage). David and Esther have a combined 1000 HP (50 Footmen: 300 HP, 50 Archers: 100 HP, 100 Soldiers: 600 HP) and 1000 Damage (50 Footmen: 100 Damage, 50 Archers: 300 Damage, 100 Soldiers: 600 Damage). Charlie deals 720 Damage to David and Esther's 1000 HP, which is enough to kill 50 Footmen (300 HP) and 70 Soldiers (420 HP). David and Esther deal 1000 Damage to Charlie's 800 HP which is enough to kill all of Charlie's units. David and Esther split Charlie's resources; however, the Castle cannot be split fairly so it's destroyed.
Notable Changes from previous versions:
  • Phases are reduced to two Harvests per year, with Market, Feast, and Tax all happening at the same time in Winter.
  • Raiders removed, Archers and Footmen added.
  • Wheat and Food combined into a single resource: crops.
  • Trebuchets are only stolen if all attackers are killed.
  • Officers are not lost if the 1 officer per 10 soldier requirement is broken due to soldier's deaths.
  • Combat, costs, and taxes twerked.
  • Gold is 4 times as valuable (I just divided all the costs and taxes by 4 to make the arithmetic easier).
  • Only raw resources are available in Harvests.

Players:
1. Dimochka - town, killed Y1
2. Vytron - town, killed Y2
3. mpolo - scum, killed Y2
4. Diemo - town, killed Y1
5. just_me
6. New User

Role PMs will be sent out ASAP. Hold tight!

Role PMs have been sent. Please confirm in thread that you received your role PM and then the game will start.
Last edited by Adam H on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:00 pm UTC, edited 12 times in total.
-Adam

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby just_me » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:18 pm UTC

confirm
I think I like the rule changes. I would have preferred just playing on my own (or with risk-like wincons) but having it as a mafia game isn't to bad either.

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WilliamTheConqueror
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby WilliamTheConqueror » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:54 pm UTC

confirm!!
addams wrote:Fucking Nature.

Tomlidich the second wrote:You cannot surgically graft enough middle fingers to my body to express how fed up I am with this.

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mpolo
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby mpolo » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:09 pm UTC

confirm
Image <-- Evil experiment

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby New User » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:12 pm UTC

confirm

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby Vytron » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:19 am UTC

Confirm, wow what did I just get myself into! :mrgreen:

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Lawrencelot
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby Lawrencelot » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:45 am UTC

confirm

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Pregame

Postby WilliamTheConqueror » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:00 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:Confirm, wow what did I just get myself into! :mrgreen:


that's what I'm thinking. o_o;;
addams wrote:Fucking Nature.

Tomlidich the second wrote:You cannot surgically graft enough middle fingers to my body to express how fed up I am with this.

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Adam H
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Adam H » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:46 pm UTC

Lord WilliamTheConquerer stumbles out into the grand hall. "The King!" He slurs drunkenly. "The King has been murdered!" The other five Lords at the table stop the feast, shocked. They all turn pale. King Adam was beloved by all! No one wanted him dead! And without an heir, the Kingdom will soon be plunged into chaos…

How could this have happened? The King and his six loyal vassals are all alone aboard the royal leisure ship. There's no way an assassin could have gotten in to kill the King. Therefore… no! It's too horrible to think about!
One of the six Lords did this?

Mpolo takes it one step further to the logical conclusion. "The King was the greatest warrior in the realm (damn straight). There's no way any of us could have bested him. There's only one explanation: not one but TWO Lords conspired to murder him."

The hall grows quiet as it sinks in. Then all hell breaks loose. Accusations are thrown, curses are hurled, and chairs are flung. "This means war!" "Death to the traitors!"

Eventually the Lords returned to their demesne to raise armies. Justice, vengeance, and the fate of the kingdom rest in their hands. For King Adam's sake, they must purge the traitors and unite the kingdom.



But, in secret, two Lords meet up in a dark and secluded forest before heading back home. One of the traitors murmurs, "Two against four? This doesn't seem like such a good idea anymore."

The other responds, "That's why our partnership must remain secret. All we have to do is survive while the others fight amongst themselves. King Snark will soon finish his war in the East and come to our aid like he promised."


Year 0, Fall Harvest

Kingdom Stats:
Spoiler:
Players start with 250 Gold. You'll be able to spend this gold soon. Also, if you would like to change your abbreviated name just let me know.

Code: Select all

         WTC -Vytron- mpolo-Lawlot-justme–NewUsr
------------------------------------------------
Gold  -  250 -  250 -  250 -  250 -  250 -  250
------------------------------------------------
Crops -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Logs  -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Metal -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Stone -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Psnts -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
------------------------------------------------
Walls -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Turrt -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Castl -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
------------------------------------------------
Ftmen -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Archr -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Soldr -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Offcr -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Trbch -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
------------------------------------------------
Citzn -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0
Noble -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0 -    0

Fall Regions:
Spoiler:
R1A1: 66 Gold
R1A2: 20 Metal
R1A3: 55 Stone
R1A4: 44 Gold
R1A5: 83 Peasants, 25 Logs

R2A1: 51 Gold, 21 Logs
R2A2: 26 Gold, 7 Stone
R2A3: 22 Gold
R2A4: 65 Gold
R2A5: 86 Crops
R2A6: 78 Gold

R3A1: 76 Metal
R3A2: 63 Peasants, 2 Gold
R3A3: 87 Gold
R3A4: 69 Peasants
R3A5: 3 Logs
R3A6: 38 Metal, 21 Stone
R3A7: 64 Logs, 3 Crops


Choose one Area within each of the 3 Regions. Submit your moves in spoilers (the spoiler part is mandatory). You cannot read other player's spoilers. A valid move submission might look like:
Year 0, Fall Harvest:
Spoiler:
R1A2, R2A3, R3A1


Remember, if more than one player picks the same Area, no one gets those resources. You can choose to withhold picking from a Region.

You have exactly 6 days from this post to make your choices. Please "lock in" your actions when you are ready so that we can begin early. You will have an opportunity to trade with other players in Winter, but feel free to start negotiations now.
Last edited by Adam H on Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:38 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
-Adam

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mpolo
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby mpolo » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:21 pm UTC

It looks to me like we need to get one person to take the big crop spot (R2A5) and the rest of us will have to buy grain from him. Should we maybe coordinate this?
Image <-- Evil experiment

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby New User » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:35 pm UTC

That sounds reasonable, since all other R2 areas yield some amount of gold. I suggest some sort of contract.

Even if we agree that nobody wants R3A5, that means an area in each of R2 and R3 for each of us. But there aren't enough areas in R1, so somebody doesn't get one at all. If we wanted to be fair, we could agree to give the more bountiful R2 and R3 regions to someone who agrees not to take an R1 region.

Overall strategy: the traitors must be destroyed. So that means everyone will be playing aggressively. The loyalists (non-traitors) all win as long as the traitors lose, yes? Or am I misunderstanding that?

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Lawrencelot
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu May 01, 2014 7:18 am UTC

What if we all just say which region we want, and as soon as there is a consensus, everyone not doing what was agreed upon is considered a traitor. Is there a downside to this?

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby just_me » Thu May 01, 2014 10:35 am UTC

I am really unsure how to approach this.
On the one hand I think we should keep trade as little as possible because then the links between scum wouldn't be drowned out in the general trading.
Then again I don't know if that would help alot. At the moment I am kinda inclined to just play this game as a free for all, because with 4/2 our odds in winning randomly aren't so bad and then through play we might find connections.
But if I think from it this way obviously I would want to trade because it puts me in a better position.
The same with distribution of ressources. maybe we should just not coordinate to see the coordination of scum pop up. But then again sample size is so small that its really hard to see if non-collision is randomly or coordinated.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby mpolo » Thu May 01, 2014 2:10 pm UTC

I think it's pretty unlikely that we're going to catch coordination through the selection of plots, just because the whole plot selection mechanic in secret is going to provoke collisions no matter what.

I think it's important that there is grain in the economy somewhere, so we need to make sure that there's no overlap on that one. There are exactly 3 regions that provide peasants, and I presume we should make sure those get passed out a bit as well. There are very few logs available, and metal and stone are only marginally better. (Of course, we can all go for gold and buy what we need, but I'm assuming there's an advantage to getting it directly…)
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Lawrencelot
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu May 01, 2014 2:22 pm UTC

As far as I can tell, the only advantage of getting raw resources over buying them with gold, is that buying can only happen in the winter whereas using raw resources can happen anytime. So during a fall harvest gold is more valuable than during a spring harvest.

I think it's best to be as open as possible about our actions: the traitors can talk to each other at any time, so they benefit from doing things secretly. If someone does a different action than was publicly discussed, he can be considered a traitor. Of course, being open about defensive actions for example, could make one vulnerable to attacks by traitors, but then at least we know who the traitors are.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Thu May 01, 2014 5:28 pm UTC

Oh, hey guys, did I forget to mention that I won the first edition of this game? :mrgreen: So unlike in other mafias where I don't know what I'm talking about, here I beg you to listen to me!

Since we don't have voting and attacking, I don't think we'll have a way to scumhunt like other mafia games, so my hope is Adam actually sent town powers to players, so we can catch scum like that. If not, this game's result will feel a bit random, but that's fine because with a majority of townies we should have the edge currently.

A key difference with the previous two editions of the game is that the others were purely competitive, so players that would benefit by screwing over other players would do so, and it was advantageous to just attack and kill the weakest players to get rid of them. Here, there's a main collaborative aspect, and, unless we suspect some player is mafia, we can try to help each other out and help the player with the least resources (because it's more likely to be town) and so on.

For this, I propose creating "fair packages" for the regions, then, players would just go and pick one of the packages, and we'd share the resources fairly. Players not going with this plan because they'd want better resources than the packages offer would look scummy to me, as they'd look greedy, specially if because of that they'd cause a collision and another player to not get any resources from some region.

With packages we have to keep in mind that some player will have to withhold from Region 1 as there's only 5 places there, but we can ignore the fact that R3A5 exists and has 3 Logs (in a normal game a player may as well have to choose between risking getting nothing or going for 3 Logs, with packages we just share the rest of the areas fairly)

Creating those fair packages would be difficult, eh, I guess someone else could create better packages than me, but there's an example of how packages would be like.

Package one:
R1 withhold. R2A5 (86 Crops). R3A3: (87 Gold)
Total: 86 Crops. 87 Gold.

Package two:
R1A5 (83 Peasants, 25 Logs). R2A3 (22 Gold). R3A6 (38 Metal, 21 Stone).
Total: 83 Peasants, 25 logs, 38 Metal, 21 Stone.

Package three:
R1A2: (20 Metal). R2A6 (78 Gold). R3A4 (69 Peasants).
Total: 20 Metal. 78 Gold. 69 Peasants

Package four:
R1A4 (44 Gold). R2A1 (51 Gold, 21 Logs). R3A2 (63 Peasants, 2 Gold).
Total: 97 Gold. 21 Logs. 63 Peasants.

Package five:
R1A1 (66 Gold). R2A2 (26 Gold, 7 Stone). R3A1 (76 Metal).
Total: 92 Gold. 7 Stone. 76 Metal

Package six:
R1A3 (55 Stone). R2A4 (65 Gold). R3A7 (64 Logs, 3 Crops)
Total: 55 Stone, 65 Gold, 64 Logs, 3 Crops.

If we agree on the ultimate value of resources, we can create such packages on the fly.

Then people post in the open what package they are getting and put that package in their spoiler. Whoever posts getting a package but puts something else on their spoiler would be scum.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu May 01, 2014 7:29 pm UTC

The package thing seems like a very good idea. Don't have time to look at the packages, but will do so later. Maybe it's obvious, but couldyou explain this
the player with the least resources (because it's more likely to be town)

to me?

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby New User » Thu May 01, 2014 7:37 pm UTC

I agree that claiming something and then going for something different in a spoiler could be considered scummy, but consider this:

If all loyalist (town) players win as long as all traitors (scum) are eliminated, then it would be best for me, as a loyalist, to get as much resources as possible and to destroy everyone else. I know I'm not a traitor, so as long as I can ensure that I'm the sole survivor, the traitors will be eliminated and my team will win.

I am not certain that dead town players receive a "win" for this game. And even if the town wins as a team, every single player will claim they are town and that entitles them to be greedy with the resources. But until it is proven that dead town players are not winners, I see no reason for myself to be altruistic with the resources, other than the fact that it might seem scummy to be greedy. In fact, from my perspective, hording resources and building up my own defenses is the towniest thing I can do. And not just defense, I'll need a strong offense as well because the traitors must be eliminated. If we all just build up a huge defense and hide behind it, the traitors will survive until the end. They must be killed, and since I don't know who they are, from my perspective it is best if everyone besides myself is killed.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Sat May 03, 2014 7:07 am UTC

Oh, but then check how the flipped argument looks like:

New User wrote:If all traitors (scum) players win as long as all loyalists (town) are eliminated, then it would be best for me, as a traitor, to get as much resources as possible and to destroy everyone else. I know I'm not a town, so as long as I can ensure that I'm the sole survivor, the loyalists will be eliminated and my team will win.


They are indistinguishable. So, while I agree it would be optimal to just give all the resources to a confirmed town to ensure they can defeat the traitors, I disagree with the concept that a player, having confirmed town status of himself, thinks they have the right to be greedy and try to maximize their resources. This will only cause lots of blocking in areas (see previous games) where the player that is best at Kingdom Control uses their resources to gain more resources, and dominate the game. That's pure Kingdom Control, and if the best Kingdom Control player that does that is mafia, we are lost.

That you aren't sure whether we can each, win, individually if a townie player wins on the end, despite our possible deaths, has convinced me that you didn't receive a town win condition like I did. It says I'll win if a certain condition happens, it doesn't say "unless you are dead", so my death wouldn't mean I have less chances of winning. Had you received it, you'd have no doubts, so I think you received the other one that'd make you want to maximize your resources to avoid defeat.

Vote New User

I know this doesn't do anything, but we can do it do something:

Improved idea: Create different sets of packages, one like the one shown, one where only 5 players get stuff, and the 6th gets least resources, and one where 4 players get the most resources, and 2 get the least. Then, we vote for the players we suspect to be mafia, and those players have to get the least resources. This will be like slow lynching, and should give town (the majority) control of the game, and allow scumhunting, and more mafia-like mechanic (with scum being forced to vote, we can make links as they'd have to vote for a townie to get least resources, and make up a reason for it, or have to vote their team mate to bus them and try to look better, which helps us getting rid of one).

Now, my example packages sucked, so, if nobody is going to be able to produce working packages for theses concepts, then, huh, nevermind... :(

Lawrencelot wrote:Maybe it's obvious, but couldyou explain this
the player with the least resources (because it's more likely to be town)

to me?


Town is the majority, so if a random player gets the least resources on a Season, it's more likely to be town. Just like if a player gets the most resources after a season, it's more likely to be town. Heck, if we suddenly decided to go with a strategy where we just give the towniest player the most resources, we'd get 66.6% chance of winning right off the bat, but I think we can do better (i.e. one where we decide to let the summiest player die of starvation, and give the most resources to towniest player only after catching actual mafia gets to 66.6% chance of winning only after losing 2 townies, but is of 80% if we get mafia on first try. We can do even better, but it requires packaging, or a better idea, otherwise, the game will run on greed and we'd just hope mafia aren't good at picking better areas than town.)

Kingdom Control allows several strategies, like making trades with people and not complying with it, keep your choices secret in a way that makes it most likely to get other players to collide, make alliances with some players just to backstab them in the best moment. Under our current ruleset, I'd consider all those kind of actions scummy, as they're indistinguishable from traitors trying to ensure their win, and will get several townies damaged in the way, which won't be good.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby mpolo » Sat May 03, 2014 7:28 am UTC

Since I haven't done Kingdom Control before, I guess I should ask the experts:

What are market days like? Are there infinite supplies of all resources, or could we theoretically get to the market and find out there are no crops this time around? Are the resources bought from the bank at 1:1 gold, or at some other ratio?
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Sat May 03, 2014 7:36 am UTC

I don't think the market is infinite, but they always carry enough stuff for people to buy as much as they like for anything. Things at the market are always bought at 1:1 ratio, but they only sell raw resources (i.e. you can't buy Footmen, but you can buy 1 Peasant and 1 Metal and craft a Footmen.)

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby mpolo » Sat May 03, 2014 7:05 pm UTC

I did some numbers fiddling. Somebody can probably still improve this. If all resources are essentially equal value, I have rated the values of the regions by simply adding the numbers:

Code: Select all

R1A1: 66   R2A1: 72   R3A1: 76
R1A2: 20   R2A2: 33   R3A2: 65
R1A3: 55   R2A3: 22   R3A3: 87
R1A4: 44   R2A4: 65   R3A4: 69
R1A5: 108  R2A5: 86   R3A6: 59
           R2A6: 78   R3A7: 67



Packet 1:        R2A5 + R3A3 = 173
Packet 2: R1A3 + R2A4 + R3A7 = 187
Packet 3: R1A5 + R2A3 + R3A6 = 189
Packet 4: R1A4 + R2A1 + R3A2 = 181
Packet 5: R1A2 + R2A6 + R3A1 = 174
Packet 6: R1A1 + R2A2 + R3A4 = 168
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Sun May 04, 2014 6:03 am UTC

Oh, thanks mpolo! That seems very effective. I'll go and pick Packet 5, I think the two most scummy people should go for packets 1 and 6. At least this way if someone is against this strategy, they'll have to claim who they are blocking, and why. Otherwise, I say we get rid of all players that made their picks without reporting anything, which I reckon, will just cause a lot of town collisions (or, who knows? maybe the best we can do is try to block the areas from who we think is scummiest, at least that'd be mafia reasoning instead of greedy reasoning.)

Picking R1A2 + R2A6 + R3A1

Year 0, Fall Harvest
Spoiler:
R1A2 + R2A6 + R3A1

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Sun May 04, 2014 6:06 am UTC

(And, huh... Gold is more valuable than everything else, as it can be turned into any raw resources, while raw resources can't be turned back into gold, or into other resources, but, this will have to do do for now.)

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Adam H » Mon May 05, 2014 2:43 pm UTC

Dimochka is replacing WilliamtheConqueror.

Deadline is in 24 hours. I'll give an extension if it's needed but don't let that be an excuse to delay.
-Adam

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby dimochka » Mon May 05, 2014 3:41 pm UTC

i have not read anything but i'll have time to catch up and reply in the next 2-3 hours.
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby mpolo » Mon May 05, 2014 4:20 pm UTC

Since nobody has corrected me on this, I will claim Packet 2. (R1A3, R2A4, R3A7)

Spoiler:
R1A3; R2A4; R3A7


I still don't really have a feel for strategy here, but hope that the game will make it clearer.
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby New User » Tue May 06, 2014 12:52 am UTC

Deadline really crept up, I was waiting for others to post.

As for Vytron's suggestion that I didn't receive a town role PM, I got the PM in the OP. My questions regarding the town players winning as a group was more for confirmation. I feel that I have been screwed in a few games here in the past because of subtle wording, or words conveniently omitted from moderator PMs. Example: Shadowrun mafia, I was told that I had an attack action available at night. I wasn't told that it wouldn't work on certain players, and the one time I tried using it, it failed because even though I picked a scum player to use it on, he was immune to my attack. Another example: asylum mafia, I was told that I was on staff team (which was mafia), but I wasn't told any of my teammates, I couldn't chat with my teammates, and I didn't have any method of killing anyone, and my win condition was to prevent as many deaths as possible. So I didn't immediately understand I was mafia, and stated during D1 that I was staff and was promptly lynched.

So I'm tired of taking anything for granted in PMs. Yes, my PM in this game doesn't say anything about me not winning if I am dead. But it also doesn't say that I still get a "win" if I'm dead. As you can see from the way I worded the original question, it was just for confirmation.
New User wrote:The loyalists (non-traitors) all win as long as the traitors lose, yes? Or am I misunderstanding that?

And this question isn't in boldface type because I wanted to see what the other players had to say about this. I have since gotten express confirmation from the moderator in PM that all town players win together, regardless of individual survival.

I'll post which "package" I choose in a couple hours, I'm kind of distracted right now.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby dimochka » Tue May 06, 2014 2:10 am UTC

I'll take packet 4 - R1A4, R2A1, R3A2. Still not exactly sure how to use it but i'll figure it out.

Fall Harvest Year 0
Spoiler:
R1A4, R2A1, R3A2
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby New User » Tue May 06, 2014 2:26 am UTC

I don't have time to look over this package deal extremely meticulously. Package #2 looks appealing, because it has a variety of resources. But it's already spoken for, so I'll take package #5 and hope to buy a variety of goods.

Package five:
R1A1 (66 Gold). R2A2 (26 Gold, 7 Stone). R3A1 (76 Metal).
Total: 92 Gold. 7 Stone. 76 Metal
Spoiler:
Year 0, Fall Harvest: R1A1, R2A2, R3A1

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Tue May 06, 2014 3:42 am UTC

New User, are you picking from the example packages or something? You're just blocking me at Region 3, and we'd get nothing there >_<;

Anyway, that's fine with me, I don't think I've ever gotten a "You still win with town even if you are dead" clarification with my town win condition. It's a given, so thinking differently is the most suspicious thing on the game, but I'll give you that it's pretty much the only mafia related discussion that has happened, so I'm probably tunnel-visioning into it. Your past mafia experiences look solid, and I've lived similar (but mainly due to my poor reading comprehension.)

I just hope you're not town, packets' point was to avoid such collisions. But there's still time, I hope you make a change to R3A4 (Packet 6.)

(I'd make a change to R3A3, but that would look greedy, so I'd rather get blocked)

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby New User » Tue May 06, 2014 4:51 am UTC

aw man I was looking at the wrong thing? I'm so confused. I'll try to pay more attention and I'll change my package choice.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby New User » Tue May 06, 2014 4:57 am UTC

I don't have time for this. The deadline is so close and I neglected to pay attention to these packages so I'm taking Vytron's advice and changing my R3 to R3A4.

This means that I'm picking package #6 as posted by mpolo. Packages 5, 2, 4, and 6 are now taken, right?

Year 0, Fall Harvest
Spoiler:
R1A1, R2A2, R3A4

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Vytron » Tue May 06, 2014 7:19 am UTC

Yes, yes, sorry, it may have been my fault for inadvertently having two sets of packets on the thread...

Also, I don't know what happens if people don't pick any areas... if their areas are picked at random, this will be our doom...

If Lawrencelot/just_me would have their areas be picked at random: request extension to give them a chance to post. If they would just not pick any area: don't request extension and hope a mafia is among them.

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby Lawrencelot » Tue May 06, 2014 7:47 am UTC

Hey guys, I'm sorry but I have to replace out of this game due to the mafia champion thing. Too bad because I really like this game more, the other one consists mainly of arrogant pricks lol

I'll keep playing with low activity until I am replaced, don't want to spoil this too much for you. I pick mpolo's package 2:

Year 0, Fall Harvest:
Spoiler:
R1A3 + R2A4 + R3A7

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby mpolo » Tue May 06, 2014 9:16 am UTC

Since Lawrencelot apparently just took my choice, I'll switch to Packet 3: R1A5 + R2A3 + R3A6 (More resources than others, but less gold…)

Spoiler:
R1A5; R2A3; R3A6


That means that the remaining player should take my Packet 1, so as not to hose anybody.
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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby just_me » Tue May 06, 2014 9:48 am UTC

I am just gonna pick randomly ignoring the deal you proposed. I think that will give us more info about interactions.

Spoiler:
R1A5 R2A4 R3A2

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby dimochka » Tue May 06, 2014 11:38 am UTC

Since I don't trust just_me to not screw us over, I'm going to change mine up. I will NOT take any areas that people claimed they'll be taking, and I'll help out a bit to those who don't end up getting 3 areas.

It actually makes sense because, as town, we want our net resource production to be as high as possible, and that in a way takes precedence over who's got what.

Switch to R1A4, R2A6, R3A3 (which will give me nothing but gold... I looooove gold)

Fall Harvest Year 0
Spoiler:
R1A4, R2A6, R3A3
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby dimochka » Tue May 06, 2014 11:42 am UTC

EBWOP: Did I mention an FoS? Well FoS on just_me, in particular because it goes directly against my theory in the previous post about town net benefit.
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".

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Re: Kingdom Control Mafia - Year 0, Fall Harvest

Postby just_me » Tue May 06, 2014 2:33 pm UTC

It actually makes sense because, as town, we want our net resource production to be as high as possible, and that in a way takes precedence over who's got what

[citation needed]


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