Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

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ElectricHaze
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby ElectricHaze » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:40 am UTC

Vytron wrote:How did we even get the train on Madge to form? If we were going to claim that we were masons with Madge, we should have claimed it before she got shot by a vig or lynched


Probably, I tried to propose Dr Ug as the alternative after SirG's claim but everyone jumped on madge then boom. Not really much chance to get a claim in there with how fast that went. That's why I'm more suspicious of Dr Ug/Carlington for that fiasco.

Vytron wrote:In any case, if Sir IS the doctor, AND Diemo is scum, I'll blame EH for all this


Bah I said I doubt the claim, but think it is too risky to lynch them even with those doubts. A doctor is one of the few ways for us to get some wiggle room with the lynches, and with the small number of players it is likely they can hit. So if true and they survive then the claim is definitely false. I still think Dr Ug or Carlington are safer lynches based on a combination of process of elimination, voting records and the madge fiasco from earlier.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby ElectricHaze » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:53 am UTC

ElectricHaze wrote:A doctor is one of the few ways for us to get some wiggle room with the lynches, and with the small number of players it is likely they can hit. So if true and they survive then the claim is definitely false.


EBWOP: Apparently while reordering this I left out part of a sentence "So if true scum have to deal with it. If we lynch Ug, and Carlington and they survive then the claim is definitely false."
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:00 am UTC

Huh, Carlington? You want to lynch Carlington just because he voted Madge?

If wondering about scum daychat is the only other thing we got going for Dr Ug that sounds really weird to me. Carlington has been very inactive but the activity on there seems fine to me. Mpolo looks good on meta, as he seems to play a lot lazier when scum.

I'd say Diemo is the optimal suspect of being serial killer.

I guess I'd want to hear about Sir and why did he choose the targets he claims to have chosen.

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:00 am UTC

(I meant to say "weak", not "weird")

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby mpolo » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:02 am UTC

So, now we have three masons in the open, who are now saying that they all got the same PM with CC. Using a game mechanic to remove the possibility of a traitor is a little iffy on the "game morality" scale, but I think we pretty much have to run with it. This means that Vytron and ElectricHaze and username are pretty certainly town. (Slight possibility of Vytron having changed alignment in the resurrection, I suppose, but I currently think this unlikely.)

If the mason group was that big from the start, and there is no possibility of a traitor, then I would expect that the scum team is proportionally larger and/or has additional powers. Or the supposition of a cult is true, which unfortunately seems likely. If the cult started with one, it would presumably have up to four members now, if with two, it would have up to five members now.

I suppose that the possibility of culting means that our complete trust for the masons can't be complete — I suppose it's questionable whether a cult recruit would remain able to PM in the masons, though. If he can't post to the masons, then we would detect him immediately. If he can, hopefully the masons will catch him in a slip due to participating (presumably) in two different chats.

I guess I understand the Dr Ug argument, but since I've always thought masons=daychat, mafia=nightchat, at least as the default rule, I don't see point one as saying very much.

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby ElectricHaze » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:32 am UTC

Vytron wrote:Huh, Carlington? You want to lynch Carlington just because he voted Madge?

In part because they voted madge. In part because of how it played with suspicions on madge and being backed up by Ug. It's very buddy buddy and coordinated.

In part because: "Vytron and username are also sources of chagrin - they're both apparently confirmed town since yesterday with the mason claim, so we've left them well alone, but so has scum. The longer they survive as confirmed town, the stranger it seems, since why on earth wouldn't scum kill them?"

Starts the doubt to remove the last two obstacles to scum. The reason I think both of you survived so long is that scum had a kill blocked N1 by mason immunity (probably on username) and the SK was the other kill. N2 it makes you two dangerous NK targets as you would be likely doctor targets, and I would guess scum would suspect doctoring as a kill block reason. Actually another possible point against SirG if scum followed this logic and believed there was a doctor then it seems more likely a fakeclaim scum would make....

"Okay, so (sorry Madge!) but dimochka's play keeps pinging me on reading through. I want to ask what was meant by a couple of things, but Madge won't very well know what dimochka was thinking."
Starts early Day2 on madge after the replacement, and never really lets up Ug starts chiming in and it all culminates today in the train and daykill. Again more of the coordinated effort I'd expect from scum

On day1 was hedged on lynching you with a vote on RR. Voting record is atrocious, and in hindsight seems like an attempt at a safe play in the face of your bold day1 claim.

Vytron wrote:If wondering about scum daychat is the only other thing we got going for Dr Ug that sounds really weird to me. Carlington has been very inactive but the activity on there seems fine to me. Mpolo looks good on meta, as he seems to play a lot lazier when scum.


Again that is part of it. I detailed the reasons in the post where I voted. Mostly, it is that and the slow build of suspicion against madge, and the vote for freezeblade while mentioning moody also pings me as distancing, more so than ever the vote from moody on sirG did. You do you though.

mpolo wrote:I suppose that the possibility of culting means that our complete trust for the masons can't be complete — I suppose it's questionable whether a cult recruit would remain able to PM in the masons, though.


It is a possibility, but if there is a cult I would have expected to see a cult death at some point by now. Vytron would have been the likely target N2. As after the res there is no risk of revealing a cult by recruiting a mason, and cult gets knowledge of all masons through the recruit, but that is something to be addressed after scum and cult leader are removed if the game goes on that long. Masons were unrecruitable N1 so it's possible a recruit was blocked. If the cult started at 1 and it is Day3 how are there 4 members? Recruit N1 + recruit N2 + leader makes 3.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:00 am UTC

I know from where Carlington is coming from because I've lived it in a previous game with multiple lover pairs: They confirmed as town each other. Unless they were lying. So we have this big discussion about... well, they're confirmed town, so they won't get lynched. So it's clear they get nighkilled.

So the suspicion of actual lying grows and grows as they survive every night. The main difference here is, yes, I already died and flipped town, but, um... Okay, your speculation about a kill being blocked and the other kill being from an SK make more sense now that we know there's a dayvig.

However, with a mafia, SK, and possibly a cult out there, the possibility of a doctor doesn't seem as crazy now...

:arrow: :arrow: Unvote (SirGabriel)

Anyway, a possible reason for not recruiting me is the hope that, if it's found out there's actually a cult, the logical action was to recruit me since N2, so the plan of cult could be to not recruit me and attempt to mislynch me because they "think I was culted N2".

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Dr Ug » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:53 pm UTC

I apologise for not being as active this week as I should, but work has kept me busy.

However:

SirGabriel is lying.

I suspected as much when he claimed doctor as I thought three doctors way too much for a game this size, but I had also thought I was the only doctor until moody flipped, and to go from 2-3 is not as hard to go from as 1-2, so I wanted to be sure. Especially as if I was wrong (and we had 3 doctors), we would probably be in serious need of those doctors from a game design point of view. I tried to subtly point out the problem with moody's flip here:
Dr Ug wrote:
Sungura wrote:Moody is dead. Cave Crawfish. Mafia.

Sungura wrote:Cave Crawfish: You are smaller than your above ground cousins, but the cave probably slows your growth. You may live to be very old, no one knows.

Does this strike anyone else as strange? I didn't exactly think "Crawfish, gee that looks like the mafia faction".
But no one noticed. The problem is I know that it was wrong, as I am a crawfish and a doctor. Which means this:
SirGabriel wrote:Sorry for the late post, the last few days have been busy.
I am a Pseudoscorpion.
is definitely a falseclaim. And it also means that moody was recruited.

I didn't want to out myself as the other doctor (especially when there was a possibility of 3 doctors implying a ridiculous possible kill number), but I think we're likely at LYLO now (see below).
Dr Ug wrote:Haven't had a lot of time to spend on mafia this last week, but given SirG's claim (unless we get a counterclaim?) I'll

Unvote: SirGabriel

But also - SirGabriel, what is your rolename? If you're falseclaiming, this would be a harder thing to lie about than the role itself.
I was worried this might not be a falseclaim, even though 3 doctors is too many. I just wanted to be sure by having him claim his role name. I should probably have been more vocal, especially when he made no comment about the crawfish flip of moody. Again I didn't want to draw attention (of the kill or recruit variety) to myself.

I targeted username night 1 and night 2 as they were fairly confirmed town in my eyes at that point from Vytron's original death message. My doctoring protects from recruit as well as kill, which makes username confirmed town. I assume moody's also protected the same, but he must have been recruited night 1. From a setup point of view, that's a lot of power on town's side, so I suspect that mafia started with 3 members, as I think 2 too weak and 4 too strong (with two doctors, blocking both recruits and kills, chance of missed recruits and kills are quite high).

I modded HP Mafire which had recruiting scum, and in that game they had to choose between kill and recruit. This may explain the low kill rate, as in general a recruit is a better action than a kill (if you start at 3-6 mafia-town, a night kill takes you to 3-5, where a recruit takes you to 4-5, which is better). I recall this being discussed previously (I think in HP Mafire - which mpolo notably won as recruited mason-mafia), so it's likely if it was a choice, they chose to recruit.

We have lynched one mafia, who was a recruit. This means we have recruiting scum, and we are in big doo-doo. It also means that mason's are not confirmed town, and ElectricHaze it may be that's why mason chat has been quiet. If Hangafia has taught me anything, it's that scum who have chat with confirmed town don't tend to use it, although with Vytron gone (I assume he no longer has chat with you?), and madge not recruited, and username being confirmed town that means if anyone is suspicious for recruit it's actually you. I didn't have you high up on my list of potential recruit targets prior to now, so I think that's actually unlikely.

So we have:

Me - doctor
username - mason, confirmed town due to doctoring
electrichaze - mason claimed and confirmed by other masons. May have been recruited, but not an obvious choice for N2 recruit IMO.
Vytron - ex-mason and who knows what now. Given the other mechanisms in play, I think likely still town?
SirGabriel - falseclaimed doctor
mpolo
Carlington
Suzuku - claimed the daykill (which seemed to have been an earned power? Can you explain this?)
Diemo

I think it unlikely SirG was the only original mafia, so the others must come from mpolo / Carlington / Suzaku / Diemo.

SirGabriel is, however, confirmed scum in my mind so:

:arrow: :arrow: Vote: SirGabriel

I will try to get more time before deadline to post my thoughts on the other players, but I am on call this weekend so I may not.

Tonight I will be targetting either username, ElectricHaze or myself (yes I can target myself).
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Suzaku » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:13 pm UTC

OK Quick summary of players to start:
Djehutynakht - modkilled - Tricolor Bat, cop, Town
RoadieRich - modkilled - caver, vanilla-esque, town
Nebuduck - modkilled - Caver, vanilla-esque, Town

Freezeblade - lynched D2 - Cave Rescue. Town.

Madge - Killed N1 - Cave Cricket, roleblocker, Town

moody7277 - Killed N2 - Cave Crawfish, mafia
frogman - Killed N2 - biologist, independent

dimochkaMadge - Killed D3 - Gray Bat. Mason. Town.

Vytron - Lynched D1 but rezzed, was Gray Bat, Mason.

SirGabriel - Claimed doctor, psuedoscorpion
Dr Ug - Claimed doctor, crawfish

ElectricHaze - claimed Mason - confirmed by Vytron
username5243 - claimed Mason - confirmed by Vytron and EH - going to be modkilled at deadline unless he posts properly first.

Diemo - claimed Caver

Suzaku - Me, and you should be able to work out my claim from information available in thread. Killed Madge D3.

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Suzaku » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:34 pm UTC

So, what does that mean?

I'm town.
I believe that the other townies are Diemo (caver), EH (Mason), username (Mason), Vytron (ex Mason, rezzed). Total 5 peeps.
The remainder is mpolo, Carlington, SirG, and Dr Ug. Total 4 peeps.

Note that if this is simple Town vs. Scum then this is LYLO (modulo powers). That we're still talking about it indicates that it probably isn't.

We've no evidence of any recruiting power at this point, save Vytron's scummy/winey/beery play on D1. EH, is there anything in the communal Mason PM to indicate the existence of a cult/recruiting Mafia?

Dr Ug is claiming that moody was a recruited doctor, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever (crawfish=doctor and crawfish!moody flipped scum), and that he (Dr Ug) is also crawfish and doctor. I don't see it and I'm not buying it. While he's correct that I wouldn't associate crawfish with Mafia, I see absolutely no reason to associate them with doctors, either.
If anything, the pseudoscorpion claim makes more sense, as they seem (at least according to Wikipedia) to be 'generally beneficial to humans'.

On doctor targets, Dr Ug's explanation of targeting username both nights is more convincing than SirG's of targeting me and Carlington.

If I had to vote now, I'd vote for Dr Ug, I think. Fortunately, the extended deadline is still a few days off, so I can afford to withhold and reassess for a day or two, which is what I will do.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Sungura » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:39 pm UTC

As the sun started setting the bats started chattering and the evil started scattering. Who would come out on top? Would good prevail or fail? Would evil-doers run away or stand proud of their mischief?

day three ends Monday evening
It is lylo/mylo
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Sungura » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:43 pm UTC


Votals
2 - Sir Gabriel (diemo, dr ug)
1 - Dr Ug (ElectricHaze)

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:32 pm UTC

I don't know, recruiting mafia makes sense.

There's this problem with games with both mafia and cult, in which it's problematic when cult recruits mafia, because the members of the mafia out all their buddies to the cult, causing imbalance (or, they're not mafia anymore, they can easily out all their buddies in the open and get them lynched.)

With recruiting mafia, all this goes away, and you can balance it easily by starting with, say, one mafia recruiter. This works if you have an SK around to compensate.

Now, I think we all agreed that some given animals in the OP had all the same role, so, if Dr Ug got the Crawfish role, it makes sense that he'd be surprised to see an animal of the same species flipping mafia, and that he'd conclude Moody started as town but was recruited.

2 doctors in the game is bizarre, but what makes his claim more believable is that, I think at that point Dr Ug wasn't in the greatest danger of being lynched, as the votals were tied, he could have saved this false-claim for later, or not play it out at all.

It makes more sense that he suspected the recruiting mafia thing and had to share it with town, because:

This would be a game with a cult nobody knows about, you'd only see people recruiting flipping as mafia instead of cult, and recruiting can go unnoticed.

So in this scenario I believe Dr Ug's claim more than Sir's, because it all does fit in in the big picture. Specially, all the big cases EH is building would be because he's Sir's scumbuddy after being recruited.

But

WE DON'T NEED TO LYNCH FROM THIS PAIR

The way Amy announced MYLO or LYLO is not typical. This is because when there's MYLO, there's not LYLO. One means you have to lynch scum, or you lose. The other means you can ensure the game continues by voting No Lynch.

This means there are certain roles that we could lynch that would lose us the game before night falls (say, if we mislynch a town we lose) and there are others that wouldn't lose us the game, but that could lose us the game at night (say, if we lynch someone independent.)

This is actually good, because it means the game's full of scum at this point, so we can probably lynch mpolo or Carlington and have a higher chance to hit scum than from the Sir/Dr Ug camp, that would be basically 50% to lose twenty dollars and my self respect.

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby ElectricHaze » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:09 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:The way Amy announced MYLO or LYLO is not typical. This is because when there's MYLO, there's not LYLO. One means you have to lynch scum, or you lose. The other means you can ensure the game continues by voting No Lynch.


Meh, LYLO - lynch correctly or lose MYLO mislynch and you lose. In just mylo you could no lynch and continue. Saying both isn't necessarily weird just redundant. Is like saying the game is rectangle/square.

Vytron wrote:2 doctors in the game is bizarre, but what makes his claim more believable is that, I think at that point Dr Ug wasn't in the greatest danger of being lynched, as the votals were tied, he could have saved this false-claim for later, or not play it out at all.


It is I don't believe either of them are doctors. One is likely SK and the other is likely scum. Earlier I thought the SK might be Ug, but now I think it is more likely SirG.

Vytron wrote:Now, I think we all agreed that some given animals in the OP had all the same role, so, if Dr Ug got the Crawfish role, it makes sense that he'd be surprised to see an animal of the same species flipping mafia, and that he'd conclude Moody started as town but was recruited.


It's true, but would also mean rolename doesn't change on recruit and that is weird. Makes the recruiter more powerful, but this game does seem to be pretty high power. I think it is more likely that such a bland rolename and description is a generic "you've been recruited here is your vanilla scum role"

Vytron wrote:WE DON'T NEED TO LYNCH FROM THIS PAIR

We don't, I like Ugs claim less than SirG's so I'm staying there for now. I'd be willing to vote Carlington as the fallback if we think this is safer, they were second on my list after Ug anyway. I should be around now that I'm awake again. I'll keep my phone around in case I need to do voting changes.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby ElectricHaze » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:22 pm UTC

Suzaku wrote:EH, is there anything in the communal Mason PM to indicate the existence of a cult/recruiting Mafia?


Not really. That we were told that we couldn't recruit is maybe the closest thing to evidence of a recruiting faction.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby mpolo » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:35 pm UTC

Well, this thing is starting to give me headaches to even think about. We have

Dr Ug: claims crawfish (and that moody the crawfish was a doctor) and implies that he might also be a doctor
Sir G: claims pseudoscorpion and doctor

We have seen at least anecdotal evidence of a successful doctor or roleblocker on night 1, as we had one death there, but two on night 2. However, there is also a dead roleblocker there in the listings. Two doctors plus a roleblocker, plus a mason group with 4 people in it, plus another group of townies who aren't quite vanilla, seems to be pressing credibility to the breaking point.

Also to be considered is the fact that username has not posted in quite a long while, so that I fear a modkill, which would eliminate a mason from the pot, making this whole thing even nastier.

I hope to be able to check in tomorrow, but it's getting rather tight on time.

I'm going to go with:

:arrow: :arrow: Vote: SirGabriel

As the case against him seems stronger (without reviewing to the extent I would like to do).
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Vytron » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:06 pm UTC

ElectricHaze wrote:Not really. That we were told that we couldn't recruit is maybe the closest thing to evidence of a recruiting faction.


No, read the PM again, what we were told is that we'd be protected from bad actions, but that this didn't include recruiting actions (I guess because... being recruited isn't bad per se, only if the cult is about to lose, I guess.)

In any case, I don't oppose a Sir lynch, since if he's not mafia he could be the SK, our chances should be better than 50%.

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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby ElectricHaze » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:16 pm UTC

I think you are reading that wrong because of punctuation.

With these votes I'm starting to think it more likely SirG is a SK. I guess we'll see. I'm not sure that lynch allows us to get through the night though. Depends on if there is recruiting in play or not and how it works.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Sungura » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:34 pm UTC

Votals
3 - Sir Gabriel (diemo, dr ug, mpolo)
1 - Dr Ug (ElectricHaze)
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Diemo » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:38 pm UTC

Sir Gab is scum for sure given he has at least one towny on him and it is lylo
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Suzaku » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:47 am UTC

Potentially LYLO, anyway.

I suspect you are correct, though, and I don't believe his claim, so:
:arrow: :arrow: Vote: SirGabriel
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Suzaku » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:47 am UTC

EBWOP: That's L-1
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Carlington » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:19 am UTC

Sorry I've been so quiet, I was unexpectedly called in for a run of 11 hour days at work which didn't leave much for this. It's pretty clear that either SG or Ug or both are lying and thus scum, so the SG lynch makes a lot of sense.

:arrow: :arrow: Vote: SirGabriel
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Re: Mafia Cave - Day 3 - flowstone of blood

Postby Sungura » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:27 am UTC

sir Gabriel is beaten with a rock and dies. Spelunker. Mafia.
Username is mod killed for inactivity. Gray bat. Mason. Town.

Night 3 starts now.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed

Postby Sungura » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:46 am UTC

People awake to a cave covered in spray-paint, etched rock, and smashed formations. There is no hope here, this cave is now a sacrificial cave. The local party crews with no regard for conservation or safety have taken over, and there is no going back.

The Spelunkers (mafia) Win.

Mod notes/commentary:
I was really surprised by the masons (gray bats). There were four to start, and they all had total protection from harmful actions night one to ensure all survived until day two, assuming they managed to not be lynched. But they didn't trust each other, and were convinced there was a traitor in their midst the entire game. They thought four was WAY too many for a game of this size - when really, it was required for balance is all. So lesson learned - don't try to read into things. Especially when the mod carbon copied the role PM to everyone in the same PM, and it is expressively not a bastard game!

The spelunkers were almost perfect in their play, except for a somewhat failed night one. They managed to recruit town power roles (upon recruit, all power is lost, again to keep balance). They felt like they were too few to start with but they had three chances at recruit. They won based on a combo of recruiting the power roles, having sucessful kills, and the plethora of mod kills was helpful.

I seriously hated how many modkills to inactivity this game required. I have always been of the firm belief it is unfair to make players deal with inactives. This did help the scum win as a numbers-game, but the total unhelpfulness within the mason group,etc, also really contributed. On a note to the madge replacement in, she only knew who she blocked night one, which had zero effect on the game - she rollblocked a vanilla town.

In addition for balance, all my vanilla towns were to search for easter eggs (clues) in the text, to gain one shot powers. Vig kills, cops, roleblocks, etc. A failed attempt pre-empted more attempts, this was to prevent them sending me every single phrase ;) One VT got a single power, another got two. The only effective use was the vig kill, which took out Madge2.0 and prettymuch handed the game to the mafia numbers-wise.

To that effect, I was super surprised on day 3 that the four scum didn't pile onto a townie lynch as soon as a single person voted them. I would have felt happier about scum winning had they gone out with a bang like that!

Night three left the scum super overpowered, one recruit left plus their kill. Only one scum member was allowed to recruit, and he flew under the radar the entire time and never once was a subject of discussion. The only hope was a VT with a protection, and they chose the wrong person.

In the end, good scum targeting at night, combined with modkills, combined with a four strong mason group that didn't work together, combined with the town voting to death their power roles, well, there was only one way this game would end.

I have to give a HUGE kudos to Frogman, my biologist. An independent role to collect every animal (there were five). Frogman managed to collect FOUR of the five, and only lost due to being killed by the mafia. I have to give a round of applause, and I was secretly hoping you'd win since you got so close. Usually independent wins are hard and I tried to create a role that was do-able, and it was ohsoclose! You're a winner in my book. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Dr Ug » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:37 am UTC

Yay.

The reason I falseclaimed rather than us all just voting on someone, was through concern that

a) our recruit might not go through. We knew it wasn't 100% reliable, and although Vytron's claim D1 and the masons slowly outing themselves made us not target them at all - and also helped try and sew discord amongst them.
b) that there was some other mechanic going on. That perhaps some of our recruits weren't really recruits. That one of us would be vigkilled night 3.

This is why I played the way i did the last few days.

Taking out the doctor, and the SK, the cop, the town RB and cave rescue early all contributed a lot to the win.

I think Vytron's claim worked for us throughout most of the game. It made us stay away from targeting him and the other claimed masons (thereby wasting their immunity). I repeat again, claiming that sort of immunity when you have it is stupid. It means that you just won't be targeted. Sure there's a chance we might call your bluff and do it anyway, but the fact you had knowledge of recruit is what made me believe it (and the fact that we were told our recruit wasn't 100% successful).

Good work team. And sorry SirG about last night ;)
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Dr Ug » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:37 am UTC

Oh, and thanks Amy, I thoroughly enjoyed that game.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby frogman » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:41 am UTC

Thanks for the game! I'm curious - if I met my win condition, would you have continued the game?
yeah yeah yeah

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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Dr Ug » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:44 am UTC

Also,

We killed frogman for an entirely meta reason. I remember him being too good at the game (sorry). And if it him collecting the species ended the game, I guess I was right.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Sungura » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:11 am UTC

Yup. Whenever a faction wins the game ends. Same as with an independent. There are times I'll write in indi win condition and then town after or such (a goal within the town spectrum) sort of deal, but the biologist was a lone player.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Dr Ug » Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:20 am UTC

Just done a readthrough of the spoilers. Didn't add a lot to what I already knew.

This was a well balanced game that was ruined partially by lurking. The mason 4-team mod-confirmed no-traitor should have been much more powerful, and was harmed by (a) Vytron's claim D1, (b) username's lurking and (c) madge going kaboom day 2. Not sure how to fix the lurking problem. Hangafia was a little bit plagued by that (although my own inactivity at times that game didn't help). Not sure if there's an easy fix.

Well played frogman, the reason I picked you for NK was (a) you were being too quiet, weren't scum with us and so therefore had to be something for me to be scared of and (b) because despite your claims to the contrary I remember you being very good at this game.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:22 am UTC

I can't open Actions.xlsx or Roles.docx. I request people to post the contents on the thread.

I'll just say that it's the first time the last day town lynches correctly, and still loses. What was up with that? >_<

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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:27 am UTC

A town modkill threw the balance off, by the looks of it.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Deva » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:51 am UTC

Actions (split in two)

Code: Select all

                               Role   Day 1                                          Night 1                               Day 2
frogman                   Biologist                         Identify Username. Earn Gray Bat earns cave cricket (death/revealed)
moody7277             Cave Crawfish                                protect Suzaku. Recruited                                   
Madge                  Cave Cricket                                    rollblock diemo, SK'd                                   
Freezeblade             Cave Rescue                                              Save Vytron                             drowned
RoadieRich                    Caver                                                                                    modkilled
Nebuduck                      Caver                                                modkilled                                   
Diemo                         Caver                                              rollblocked                                   
Suzaku                        Caver                                                protected          Found stal, earns vig kill
Vytron                     Gray Bat stabbed                   Vytron Saved, loses mason chat                                   
Madge (dimochka)           Gray Bat                                                                                             
ElectricHaze               Gray Bat                                                                                             
username6243               Gray Bat         Identified, did not strip power as N1 protection                                   
Carlington              S.P. Lunker                             Kill username, recruit moody                                   
SirGabriel                Spelunker                                                                                             
Dr Ug                     Spelunker                                                                                             
mpolo            TN Cave Salamander                                              Kill: Madge                                   
Djehutynakht           Tricolor Bat                                          cop: roadierich                           modkilled

Code: Select all

                                          Night 2                                       Day 3                       Night 3
frogman          Identifies Moody killed by mafia                                                                         
moody7277                                  killed                                                                         
Madge                                                                                                                     
Freezeblade                                                                                                               
RoadieRich                                                                                                                 
Nebuduck                                                                                                                   
Diemo                                             found sly creature, earns rollcop, username protect electrichaze / killed
Suzaku                                                                        Vig Kills Madge                     recruited
Vytron                                                                                                                     
Madge (dimochka)                                                                Killed by vig                             
ElectricHaze                                                                                                      protected
username6243                                                                        modkilled                             
Carlington            Kill Frogman, recruit mpolo                                                                         
SirGabriel                                                                            Lynched                             
Dr Ug                                                                                                                     
mpolo                                 Kill: Moody                                                                         
Djehutynakht                                                                                                               


Roles

18 Players - 3 Mafia (recruit), 4 Masons (town), 2 Independent, 9 Town

Easter Eggs:
1) Sherlock - earn a one-shot roll cop
2) Stab/Stabbed - earn a one-shot kill, anytime usage
3) Drown - earn a rollblock
4) Sly Creature - rollcop
5) Collapse - Earn shield


(2) Spelunker
You create havoc in caves, going without headlamps, proper gear, and even taking in spray paint. You destroy the microenvironment. You are the reason there is a saying "Cavers Rescue Spelunkers", and also the ever popular "They're named Spelunkers because of the splat sound they make when they fall!" Your disregard for caves, their wildlife, and their environment, make you the MAFIA. Your crew has one kill every night, anyone may send it in.

(1) S.P. Lunker
You create havoc in caves, going without headlamps, proper gear, and even taking in spray paint. You destroy the microenvironment. You are the reason there is a saying "Cavers Rescue Spelunkers", and also the ever popular "They're named Spelunkers because of the splat sound they make when they fall!" You not only have a total lack of regard for caves, their wildlife, and environment, but you teach others to follow in your paths rather than learn proper safety and conservation. Your leadership in these unspeakable acts make you the MAFIA GODFATHER. You and only you have the ability to recruit up to three new members (three shot, not three successes). Night ability. Your crew has one kill every night, anyone may send it in.

(4) Gray Bat
A wonderful endangered bat, they love huddling together on cave walls. They have very specific needs and always hibernate together in very cold caves through the winter. Your desire for community and hibernation makes you the perfect Mason. Town. You are protected night 1 from all harmful actions. Nonrecruiting.

(1) Tennessee Cave Salamander
You're a ghost dragon who never leaves the water. You escape unnoticed most of the time, your translucent white body a perfect hiding in silty streamways. Your movement is so fluid and speedy, no one sees you coming or going. Independent. Serial Killer. Night Ability.

(1) Biologist
You love studying cave wildlife. You want to study as many kinds as possible.Independent. Select a player every *day* to study. If they are an animal, you will get to collect them - stripping them of whatever powers they have before setting them free. Collect at least one of every animal for your win condition.

(1) Cave Cricket
People think you are creepy, kinda like a large spider, but one that jumps all over, even onto people! You make people run away screaming, deeper into the cave. They might get lost and forget what they were doing in the firstplace! Town. Roleblocker. Night ability. Send in the name of someone to block.

(4) Caver
You love caving! You use proper gear and have respect for the environment. You follow the rule of "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints, kill nothing but time" motto. You enjoy the wildlife, the adventure, and the exploration. As you continue to cave, you may find tools to help you grow to be even more experienced. Town. Vanilla. But watch for "easter eggs" in the text...if you think you see one, message me what you saw, you may just learn something new! If you are wrong, you may not try again and will stay vanilla town for the entire game.

(1) Tricolor Bat
You are little and cute and have fur with bands of color. You tend to roost somewhat solitary, but you are found in almost every cave in the region as you are quite versatile in your requirements. Your small size, speedy nature, and echolocation allow you to maneuver quickly and quietly. Cop. Town. Night action.

(1) Cave Crawfish
You are smaller than your above ground cousins, but the cave probably slows your growth. You may live to be very old, no one knows. And Oh how you spook people! You and your claws! But you aren't that mean, so like Dr. Zoidburg in Futurama, you are a Doctor. Town. Night action.

(1) Cave Rescue
You are an elite caver, and can rescue spelunkers and cavers who get in over their heads! Because of your knowledge and problem solving ability, you save them. Town. Once every day/night cycle (can be used day or night, but not both, aka day 1 means you have to wait until day 2 or later until using it again), send me a player's name and you will save them - but because they need saved, they will lose any ability they currently possess.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Dr Ug » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:50 am UTC

Vytron wrote:I'll just say that it's the first time the last day town lynches correctly, and still loses. What was up with that? >_<
Modkill + successful (not guaranteed) recruit.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:18 am UTC

Thanks Deva! (before reading)

...

Thanks Deva! (after reading)

Thanks for the game, Amy.

I just want to know if the game would have continued if username wasn't modkilled. If so, this is a very unsatisfactory ending and the last game day was a complete waste of time. I'd believe in such case a replacement should have been seeked because game ending because modkill is the second worst way to decide a game, after a coin flip. And I'll avoid games with user in the future because he's been active in other games, but ignoring this one, and that's unacceptable.

Otherwise, ignore the previous paragraph.

I think the game was basically decided at the end of N2, by wonderful cult play (If it can recruit it's a cult, no matter how you call it. I think it was unbalanced to not have cult and mafia on opposite sides, and a big mason group doesn't offset this, because you can't expect them to trust each other, no matter what you do, because the possibility of a traitor can't be get rid of (say, you give a separate message to the traitor, telling them to ignore the other PM), and I would have loved to see the cult and mafia ducking it out, which is the most interesting factor of such a setup: mafia and cult can't win together so it's numbers against kills, and then many masons makes more sense, since information is their way to fight two scum factions), so I can only congratulate scum players for their strong victory. It's very rare to see a 17 player game end at Day 3.

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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Carlington » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:39 am UTC

Good game everyone!

I agree with the people who have been saying that inactivity was the real winner in this game, and I feel bad for not being more active.
I'll put this under a spoiler because I haven't seen if a list of players matched to their roles has been released by the mod, so I don't want to say things that aren't yet meant to be public knowledge:

Spoiler:
That said, the last say wasn't a waste, Vytron - if you guys had lynched or roleblocked me, we couldn't have recruited and thus the game would've gone another day and town could have pulled it back with successful lynching (made easier by the fact that the only townies alive at the end were masons + Suzaku.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Sungura » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:53 am UTC

Allthe rolls and actions and all that was dumped in the game end post

I really tried to find replacements but no one stepped up. I still have outbox messages unread from awol players and awol replacements I just deleted.

Last day wasn't a joke. If username had showed up (and they did post in their game thread?!? So they were online) and/or if a protection successful there would have been another day. Even with the modkill, had there been the right protection choice at night there would've been another day.

I wish I hadn't had to modkill so much but I had no choice and no replacements.
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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:40 am UTC

No, I'm talking about delaying the game, pausing it, until replacement is found. It think it has happened before, as people don't realize how important a replacement is (i.e. they never have in mind "if a player is modkilled they game ends instead of continuing"), but if they know a game is paused, and will not resume until a replacement is found, then they will step in.

I'd rather have waited 48 hours more to find one (I reckon it wouldn't have taken longer, specially, I know people Amy doesn't that would have stepped in to replace, ironically, I didn't even know Amy was looking for a replacement, so if I wasn't playing I wouldn't have applied due to ignorance) and then see scum win because they deserved it (oh, they did deserve it) and not because of modkill.

It's just bad aftertaste, and I think this should have consequences, like banning username from future games, or make him promise to not quit games if he gets uninterested.

All the modkills, no exception, from this kind I've seen before, have been by people that were unable to play, that sometimes even had me worried because they quit the forum for months, or they never came back, so they stopped playing because they couldn't physically play.

A player that visits some games and chooses to ignore others is inexcusable and unacceptable. I'm really upset with username about this because he single-handedly ruined a game I literally waited for months to play, and that I tried to save when it was on the edge of being aborted, and I'm sorry if it seems as if some of it falls on you Amy, because that's not my intention, and I'm sure you dealt with this in the best way that you could.

This would have been very different if username truly had disappeared off the map and we didn't even know what happened to him. I just can't get over him playing happily other games and ignored this one as if he didn't care :(

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Re: Mafia Cave - Cave is destroyed (mafia win)

Postby Madge » Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:03 am UTC

I would rather modkills than having a game go limping along for weeks after a replacement is found.

I don't hold mafia to some sacred standard of perfection/idealism. It's a game. If you were playing soccer and someone broke their leg and there were no subs on the field, you would stop the game, or maybe continue 10 a side instead. Maybe the injured guy is the only person who is able to play a goalie so you play with no goalies. Sometimes games get changed by the players not being able to continue or whatever, and that's okay. It's part of life.

This is a stupid game we play on a forum for fun; I wouldn't have rather waited 48 hours for a replacement. I wouldn't rather let the game drag on for weeks, potentially into a holiday I have planned, so I need to get replaced as well when I'd planned to have finished this game in time for that.

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