Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

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Opus_723
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Opus_723 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:25 pm UTC

So Echo turned out to be town. Yikes.

We can't lynch wrong today, so I'm going to be giving everyone a second look.

faubiguy: Has been my scummiest read through most of the game. Voting SDK again. I'm really nervous about how quickly he's voting on LYLO. Could be waiting for a town player to join him so that his scumbuddy can hammer and win the game.

SDK: Echo is the one who escalated the showdown yesterday, so SDK hitting back doesn't ping me too hard. However, he was the first to 'find' scumtells on her. The death of adnapemit also doesn't look good for him. She had SDK next on her scum list after Echo.

Currently I'm getting pinged mostly by faubiguy and SDK. I think I'm going to try and reset my scum/town reads on everyone and just reread the thread. I want to see if anyone comes out differently at the end on a fresh look. I'll come back with reads on everybody.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby faubiguy » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:57 pm UTC

I was being a bit quick with my vote, but I'm nearly sure that SDK is scum by now, and withholding my vote for later won't help much. Since I know myself to be town, both of the remaining scum would have to add to my vote on SDK to result in a lynch. Since that's still possible however, I will remove my vote for now. (though will almost certainly add it back once the end of the day gets closer)

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Yablo » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:15 pm UTC

Okay, so there went two of my three strongest Town reads. This could be bad. I only had Opus_723 as more townie. I was leaning pretty far toward the Echo side of the fight, but SDK threw just enough doubt. I had faubiguy and SDK tied for scummiest, so my initial feeling here was that maybe they're a scum team, and faubiguy was bussing SDK. Certainly, Echo244 put enough focus on SDK at the end of Day 2 that he merits suspicion, but like Opus_723 says, we can't lynch wrong today. It's time to re-read the thread from start to finish.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:44 am UTC

I'm reading the thread, but I have a real life situation and might not get a post in tonight. I will be reading adnapemit closely because I think she made good observations, even when I didn't agree with her. Please, no one vote until everyone gets a chance to post and we have some discussion.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:18 pm UTC

Yes, exactly.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Yablo » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:18 pm UTC

I've gone back over the thread, and my sliders haven't really moved much since I gave my last reads. I still have about the same reads. I have moderate scum reads on SDK and faubiguy, but they're not really striking me as a team. I feel pretty safe in exempting Opus_723 from suspicion since I've been getting a strong town vibe all game. The problem here is that if SDK and faubiguy aren't a team, I'm left with only bessie to suspect, and I'm pretty firmly neutral on her.

I think it might help if SDK and faubiguy were to give their reads on each other.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:05 am UTC

I will probably have a busy week. Here are my current reads on everyone. I might not have time to make any epic long posts, but I will try to answer any questions in short posts as quickly as possible.

faubiguy - His posting in this game has been very light. He throws out an occasional read, but with no analysis or reason. And he never answered my questions in this post. faubiguy started D3 with a vote on SDK with no reason other than SDK is scum. faubiguy, please answer these questions.
1. At the end of D2 you were leaning town on Echo and scum on SDK. Can you please give some reasons for those reads?
2. Can you provide your reasons for voting for SDK, other than because he is scum? Please list specific examples.
3. Why are you sure Opus is town?
faubiguy's currently my scummiest read but I don't have a clear read on who his partner may be.

Opus_723 – Opus has been so incredibly townie I’m having trouble thinking of some questions for him. Maybe after his reread. Oh, there's this.
Opus_723 wrote:SDK: Echo is the one who escalated the showdown yesterday, so SDK hitting back doesn't ping me too hard. However, he was the first to 'find' scumtells on her. The death of adnapemit also doesn't look good for him. She had SDK next on her scum list after Echo.

Can you please explain how you think adnapemit’s death looks bad for SDK?

SDK – Honestly, I was hoping that SDK or I would be killed last night because I don’t feel confident that I can read him. I have had him as town this entire game. I have been rereading his case on Echo looking for slips and I can’t really find any. There is one thing that gives me a slight ping and that is how he tends to group himself with me when discussing Echo’s suspicions ("bessie and I get much more attention" and "wants to get the wagon to shift to me or bessie" for example). It could be an effort to ensure I group the two of us together when I think about alignments. Ok, looking through Echo's posts to which he is referring, it looks like Echo is the one doing the grouping. SDK, why do you think scum chose to kill adnapemit?

Yablo – I was suspicious of him D2 for the same reasons I was suspicious of Echo (for defending username for the wrong reasons, and for trying to cast suspicion on the username voters). He could have hammered Echo, but didn’t. Not hammering is usually a townie thing to do, because hammering ends the day and all discussion, and more discussion always benefits town (although I wonder if it’s just that newbies are less likely to vote, I know that I was usually hesitant to vote because I was worried I would get it wrong). I think that you should have voted for faubiguy or SDK if you were suspicious of them, though. Or were you worried that I might vote for SDK, or that someone else would switch?
Yablo wrote:I feel pretty safe in exempting Opus_723 from suspicion since I've been getting a strong town vibe all game.

I don’t disagree with you, but can you point to anything in particular that is especially townie? My current read on Yablo is neutral.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Yablo » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:03 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
Yablo wrote:I feel pretty safe in exempting Opus_723 from suspicion since I've been getting a strong town vibe all game.

I don’t disagree with you, but can you point to anything in particular that is especially townie?

Now that you mention it, I'm not really sure. I'm still learning to spot the subtle tells. He has been contributing to the conversation though, and he hasn't really avoided or dodged anything. When SDK suggested that anyone with a role incompatible with username's claim should state that it was impossible, Opus_723 voiced concern that doing so might put a glow-in-the-dark target on someone. It seems like Mafia might just stay silent about that rather than mention it.

My current reads:

Code: Select all

              Town |--------------------| Mafia
faubiguy:          |-------------[]-----|
Opus_723:          |---[]---------------|
SDK:               |--------------[]----|
bessie:            |--------[]----------|
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Yablo » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:14 pm UTC

I meant to respond to this, too:
bessie wrote:Yablo – I was suspicious of him D2 for the same reasons I was suspicious of Echo (for defending username for the wrong reasons, and for trying to cast suspicion on the username voters). He could have hammered Echo, but didn’t. Not hammering is usually a townie thing to do, because hammering ends the day and all discussion, and more discussion always benefits town (although I wonder if it’s just that newbies are less likely to vote, I know that I was usually hesitant to vote because I was worried I would get it wrong). I think that you should have voted for faubiguy or SDK if you were suspicious of them, though. Or were you worried that I might vote for SDK, or that someone else would switch?

There were three votes on Echo244, and two on SDK. I was leaning pretty heavily toward voting SDK, but he gave me just enough reason to doubt Echo244 that I hesitated. I was pretty sure you'd vote for Echo244 anyway, so not voting at least allowed me to not be wrong.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:13 pm UTC

I thought I'd have time to do my reread today, but then I didn't. I'll at least take the time to repond to toDay's events at least...

Suzaku, can we have an extension for no reason at all, please? Image

faubiguy wrote:The way Echo and SDK were going after each other yesterday, I think it's very likely that SDK is scum.

Explain why, please. Just because Echo was town, doesn't make her right. Can you point to the parts of her logic you agreed with? Or respond to my response on her behalf?

Opus_723 wrote:faubiguy: Has been my scummiest read through most of the game. Voting SDK again. I'm really nervous about how quickly he's voting on LYLO. Could be waiting for a town player to join him so that his scumbuddy can hammer and win the game.

You're town, right? Did you do your reread yet?

Yablo wrote:I think it might help if SDK and faubiguy were to give their reads on each other.

Rereading faubiguy is first on my to-do list at the moment. Just the fact that he's dodged the lynch two days running means he's probably scum, but I've got to confirm.

bessie wrote:SDK, why do you think scum chose to kill adnapemit?

I wish they'd killed me too, but it wouldn't have made sense. So let's see. We've got me, Opus, bessie, adnapemit, faubiguy and Yablo, right? Two of which are scum. Me and faubiguy were obviously out of the running. I'd voiced some concern over Yablo... I guess I would have expected one of you, Time Panda or Opus to die... probably in reverse order there. Who did Time Panda suspect? I'll have to compare her and Opus to speculate, but it'll be mostly WIFOM anyway. You thinking Opus might be scum just because he's alive?
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Opus_723 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:36 am UTC

My reread was foiled over the weekend by internet problems, so I don't have a ton of analysis yet. I'm hoping I can get through the thread tonight.

bessie wrote:
Opus_723 wrote:SDK: Echo is the one who escalated the showdown yesterday, so SDK hitting back doesn't ping me too hard. However, he was the first to 'find' scumtells on her. The death of adnapemit also doesn't look good for him. She had SDK next on her scum list after Echo.

Can you please explain how you think adnapemit’s death looks bad for SDK?


Right before the Echo lynch, adnapemit had SDK as her next scummiest read after Echo. Also, now that I'm looking at it closer, pretty much everyone else had faubiguy at the bottom of their list, but adnapemit only had faubiguy in the middle of the pack. If faubiguy is scum, then killing adnapemit didn't help him one bit. It's not a huge red flag, but I was trying to see what might have stood out about adnapemit to draw the kill, and that's the only thing that jumped out at me. Specifically, I was referring to this:

adnapemit wrote:
I've said it before but SDK is always going to look suspicious to me and but it does feel like Echo is daring people to vote for her. If this she is town this is a very bad thing to do.
Current rankings:

TOWN

Opus_723
Yablo
faubiguy
bessie
SDK
Echo244

SCUM


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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:37 pm UTC

faubiguy

Not a whole lot to go through here. I guess he's still a good bet to lynch because what he's got isn't great, but I wish there was more to go on.

SDK wrote:
faubiguy wrote:
SDK wrote:Can you point to that interaction that you think is suspicious? What do you think of my comment that Yablo could be his scumbuddy?

Mostly just the way you put the first random vote on username, than, then his response to that. As I said, it's very speculative and merely my best guess, but not necessary very likely. I can also see how Yablo's interactions with/references to username draw attention, but I'm not sure how much importance I'd assign to that.

What about username's response indicated that it was scum buddies you were looking at?

faubiguy, you never answered this question. Please do.

So the main thing that bugs me is his reads on other players. They don't develop naturally, but seem to be more in response to the tone of the game. In addition to the above, Day 1 was fairly noncommital (which is fine), but ended with a vote for username. This follows from his previous suspicion, but the way the wagon developed makes this look like he was aiming for an in on that wagon, but didn't want to commit early. The vote for username comes with this explanation:
faubiguy wrote:Username's initial power role claim is quite suspicious to me. Obviously town would want to avoid lynching a power role, but by not claiming which one in particular it means the claim can't be countered by someone who has either the same role or a role that can't exist at the same time. This would be a better strategy for scum who's worried about being lynched than town who would be better off claimign a specific role. If he's telling the truth about being jailkeeper, as others have noted scum would probably kill him anyway rather than let him live as confirmed town and a power role.
The first part is true, username's claim of an unspecified power role was suspicious, but the bolded is faulty logic - if the scum were going to kill him, we definitely shouldn't lynch him.

faubiguy, how does this reconcile with your later (Day 3) statement that "I can clearly see how I ended up helping scum with the wrong vote"? What realisation are you talking about there?


faubiguy, you never really gave an explanation for voting me Day 2, but did explicitly state that "I'm leaning towards Echo being town and SDK scum (its possible both or neither are scum, but I'm reasonably sure one is town and the other scum)". Why are you so sure now that Echo was right when you felt the need to make that caveat earlier?
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:57 pm UTC

Yablo

Yablo, like Echo, cautioned against lynching username. Looking back on it now, it feels like it's coming from the right place though. Not really looking to get an in on a townie's wagon, just a defense of how he sees it. I'd voiced concern over this previously, thinking he could be username's scum buddy, but that was mainly due to the fact that he didn't do anything else Day 1. And, like I said before, that was contingent on username actually flipping scum.

Yablo has since upped his contributions considerably, though he never cast a vote Day 2. I'm not quite sure what I would have done in his case. Choosing not to vote in order to extend the Day slightly is townie, but if Yablo was scum, he probably didn't much care which of me or Echo was lynched. Based on sheer quantity of words, though, Yablo did care, so I'll throw this in the town pile.

Talking through his reads Day 3, Yablo shows a healthy amount of uncertainty here as well. I guess based on that alone it's possible he's faubiguy's scum buddy (if faubiguy is scum, I would expect faubiguy's buddy to have a scum read on both of us, with me just a bit ahead), but I'm just not seeing it based on Yablo's behaviour. If he is scum, he certainly talks like a townie. That's burned me before with certain players, but I'll assume I can read this newbie until proven otherwise.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:52 pm UTC

bessie

Starts off helpful to the newbies. Pushes people to respond to my questions (ie: trying to generate content from others). Carries on conversation about mafia in general, but it feels like townie conversation. Votes username for not answering questions (primarily).

Then we get a list (and some follow-up). Comparing to [url=[url=http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=112774&p=3877315#p3877315]]Day 2 reads[/url].
- Time Panda under scrutiny -> bessie, was this tied to username as scum? It seems strange that you held to this after username flipped town. Please explain.
- Town read on Echo -> This read did an about-face based on her defending username, right? If username had flipped scum, would you have the same concerns?
- Questions for Yablo -> bessie, what is your read of Yablo now? You can do better than neutral.
- username is scum... talks a lot about his claim. Oh yeah!
bessie wrote:I think username is already dead because if he survives the night he will probably be lynched/mislynched tomorrow. And I don’t have any other strong scum reads so I’m going to leave my vote where it is for now, but I will reread the thread and hopefully we have some more content to analyze before deadline. I would especially like to see another post from faubiguy, who is slipping on my scum scale because he’s not posting and because he never removed his random vote on Yablo. Random voting stage is long over, and if you want to keep your vote on Yablo you need to justify it.

Not a fan of this whole bit here. 1) It sounds like coaching with the vote thing, and 2) I was looking for alternatives to the username wagon, but left my vote after finding no good options. If bessie was already reading faubiguy as scum, she should have moved her vote to follow moody.

I followed up on this Day 2... but bessie never really came back to it properly despite mentioning it repeatedly. faubiguy/bessie scumteam? Could be true. Votecounts line up nicely with bessie on the counterwagon. bessie's Day 2 read of faubiguy is very noncommital, though she does eventually call him Echo's scum buddy (or rather, the other way around), quite strongly.

bessie, you seemed very sure that faubiguy was scum at the end of Day 2. Could you please state your case here? I don't have a good idea of why you think he's scum.

bessie wrote:I made a late decision not to read the previous newbie games (although I thought about it). My read of username was based entirely on his actions in this game only, and I struggled to try to hold myself to that and not let previous games or anything that was happening in other parts of the forum affect my analysis of him (I don't think we need to discuss this last point further).

Maybe we should discuss this further. You've used meta arguments before, if I remember correctly. Why not now?


... good enough for now.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:08 pm UTC

Opus

Starts off with the game miscount which I don't think could have come from scum. Has reads, contributed nicely, doesn't vote for username when he's got the chance (he certainly talks about it enough)...

Votes for Echo Day 2 after some good talk, and his reads seem to be progressing naturally enough. Opus, you mentioned our Day 1 interactions as having pinged you. Can you point to where that is?

Hasn't properly joined the show yet Day 3. Internet problems, apparently. You said that Time Panda's death made me look bad. Who is my buddy if I'm scum? Does moody's death factor into that?
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:22 am UTC

Let's see, deadline is in about 8 hours, there has been very little discussion, we have no votes.

Suzaku, I second the request for an extension.

I will try to get back to this tonight. If I have to vote now, I will probably vote for faubiguy.

(I apologize for my lack of participation this past week. My real life situation I mentioned earlier is now a death in my family and I have been busy.)

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Suzaku » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:16 am UTC

SDK wrote:Suzaku, can we have an extension for no reason at all, please? Image

No, not for no reason.



However, you may have one for the very good reason that people (including the mod) have been stupid busy and/or absent and the game is at LYLO with no votes.

Deadline extended 48 hours until 2015/11/20 21:00 JST (12:00 UTC). If there is need or desire, I will consider a further 24 hour extension.


bessie, my condolences on your loss, and I hope you're OK.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:17 pm UTC

Thanks. And yeah, hope you're all doing well, bessie. Sorry to hear that.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:11 pm UTC

Thank you for the well wishes. I appreciate it. I am trying to make travel arrangements and this is a bad time for me to be away from work, and a worse time for me to be away from home for a few days, which just adds to everything.

SDK wrote:- Time Panda under scrutiny -> bessie, was this tied to username as scum? It seems strange that you held to this after username flipped town. Please explain.

I thought andapemit was suspicious on D1 for trying to maneuver votes away from username and on to his attackers. My IGMEOY D2 was because her D1 actions would still make sense if username was the jailkeeper and if she was mafia roleblocker (or her partner was). It would be better for scum to lynch anyone else to try to hit the bulletproof townie because they could block the jailkeeper.

SDK wrote:Questions for Yablo -> bessie, what is your read of Yablo now? You can do better than neutral.

I like his sliders because it’s like making an ordered list, and he is providing his read on everyone (at least in relation to everyone else). But in his analysis, he tries too hard to be in the middle on everyone and everything. All his reads are conditional: I think this… but it could be this… I would think he was independent if we had one in the game, because it makes me think survival is important to him. So that would make me lean scum on him.

I answered these two questions because I could do so quickly. The others will take more time and I will do that tonight.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Yablo » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:59 pm UTC

I'm sorry for your loss, bessie. I lost my favorite uncle earlier this year, and his birthday was Halloween. It still hurts, but it does get easier.

Also, I was planning to put together a post after work last night, but we got a lot of snow, and it took nearly two hours to drive twenty miles. Then, my snowblower was out of gas, and I wasn't about to go out for more, so I got to shovel a large driveway before helping my wife with dinner and the baby.

Anyway, there have been a few mentions that I haven't voted, or that my reads are conditional. I'm not going to be pushed into voting before I'm comfortable, but I think I'm becoming comfortable.

SDK feels a tiny bit scummier to me, but I can't point clearly to why. I think it's mostly his aggressiveness, combined with the fact that both of the people he wanted lynched flipped town. That's not a good reason, but it's something. He did provide a read on faubiguy after I asked (even though it wasn't a direct response, but part of a series of analyses).

faubiguy hasn't posted since Thursday. People have seemed busy lately, but this has been how he's played the game all along. When he does post, he doesn't contribute much, and his posts seem to carry the message "I know I'm town, but I can see why you don't think so." That's not a strong argument.

Vote: faubiguy

Reason: Minimal posting all game long accompanied by minimal contribution.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Opus_723 » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:49 pm UTC

My condolences, bessie. I'm sorry to hear that, and hope you're well.

SDK wrote:Opus

Votes for Echo Day 2 after some good talk, and his reads seem to be progressing naturally enough. Opus, you mentioned our Day 1 interactions as having pinged you. Can you point to where that is?

Hasn't properly joined the show yet Day 3. Internet problems, apparently. You said that Time Panda's death made me look bad. Who is my buddy if I'm scum? Does moody's death factor into that?


On D1 I thought your questions seemed a bit superfluous, like you were only asking questions and playing the mentor to seem townie. In retrospect that may have been just to spur any sort of conversation on D1, which is fine. But it pinged me then.

If you're scum, I'm not sure who you could be teamed up with. You don't seem really chummy with anyone. Bessie has been largely agreeable with you, so that's a possibility, but she seems pretty townie to me. You and faubiguy seem to be at each other's throats a lot in the votes, which would be pretty brave for a scum team, but it might just be distancing that's working really well. You have voted each other a few times, but not on any occasion that one of you was actually in danger.

All that being said, I think faubiguy looks scummier than SDK. His early vote today seemed reckless if town, but it makes sense for scum with a buddy out there, either as a ploy to get town!SDK lynched or a way to provide distance from scumbuddy!SDK. Yablo noted that his votes have been very reactionary. And he has been generally more lurky than anyone else.

Sorry I haven't been more active and thorough. I'm not sure what's going on, but my internet keeps going dark for a day or two at a time. My landlord is working on it, but I can't guarantee anything. Luckily I'm in town today, so I should have wi-fi all day and I can get some reading done on my downtime. I really need to reevaluate Yablo and Bessie, and I'm going to work on that now. They seem townie to me but I'm worried that I'm not scrutinizing them carefully enough.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby faubiguy » Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:52 pm UTC

SDK wrote:What about username's response indicated that it was scum buddies you were looking at?

I'm not sure, just a vague feeling. In hindsight its even harder to remember since that turned out not to be the case. I wasn't very sure of it at the time anyway.

By "I can clearly see how I ended up helping scum with the wrong vote", I meant that by putting my vote on username I ended up losing town a power role rather than vanilla even though with an uncontested claim I should have been more cautious.

Rethinking it, I'm less sure that SDK is scum. I still think that he's the best choice by elimination though, since I'm almost sure Opus is town, and Yablo and bessie each seem more likely to be town than SDK does.

Vote: SDK

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:16 am UTC

Continuing from my previous post.

SDK wrote:- Town read on Echo -> This read did an about-face based on her defending username, right? If username had flipped scum, would you have the same concerns?

Let’s see, I was suspicious of Echo for defending username for what I thought were the wrong reasons, and for trying to cast suspicion on me and SDK for voting for him (hmm, but not on faubiguy? why didn’t I ask her about that?). Yes, I would have had the same concerns regardless of username’s alignment. It benefits scum to have a scummy townie in the game (Isn’t this why you believe you and faubiguy weren’t night killed?). If username was scum, it would make sense for scum to try to save him from the lynch, and Yablo and adnapemit defended him too so it wouldn’t have been too dangerous for scum!Echo to defend him.

SDK wrote:Not a fan of this whole bit here. 1) It sounds like coaching with the vote thing,

Yeah, I posted a lot of things in this game that I wouldn’t have posted in a different game. I shared more of my thoughts and reasons for thinking/doing things because I thought it would be useful for the newbies in learning how to play (not that they needed my help, I think some of them are already better players than I am).

SDK wrote: If bessie was already reading faubiguy as scum, she should have moved her vote to follow moody.

I think I agree with this.

SDK wrote:I followed up on this Day 2... but bessie never really came back to it properly despite mentioning it repeatedly.

Can you be clearer as to what you are referring? Or just ask me the question again? I’m missing something here.

More in a couple hours. I don’t have time to finish this right now.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:11 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:- Time Panda under scrutiny -> bessie, was this tied to username as scum? It seems strange that you held to this after username flipped town. Please explain.

I thought andapemit was suspicious on D1 for trying to maneuver votes away from username and on to his attackers. My IGMEOY D2 was because her D1 actions would still make sense if username was the jailkeeper and if she was mafia roleblocker (or her partner was). It would be better for scum to lynch anyone else to try to hit the bulletproof townie because they could block the jailkeeper.

Kinda. Seems a stretch, but okay.

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:Questions for Yablo -> bessie, what is your read of Yablo now? You can do better than neutral.

I like his sliders because it’s like making an ordered list, and he is providing his read on everyone (at least in relation to everyone else). But in his analysis, he tries too hard to be in the middle on everyone and everything. All his reads are conditional: I think this… but it could be this… I would think he was independent if we had one in the game, because it makes me think survival is important to him. So that would make me lean scum on him.

A fair point.

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:- Town read on Echo -> This read did an about-face based on her defending username, right? If username had flipped scum, would you have the same concerns?

Let’s see, I was suspicious of Echo for defending username for what I thought were the wrong reasons, and for trying to cast suspicion on me and SDK for voting for him (hmm, but not on faubiguy? why didn’t I ask her about that?). Yes, I would have had the same concerns regardless of username’s alignment. It benefits scum to have a scummy townie in the game (Isn’t this why you believe you and faubiguy weren’t night killed?). If username was scum, it would make sense for scum to try to save him from the lynch, and Yablo and adnapemit defended him too so it wouldn’t have been too dangerous for scum!Echo to defend him.

I think I did mention Echo's lack of focus on faubiguy, it being a reason to think they were scum buddies. Since Echo flipped town... maybe she just assumed his was a vote in self-defense?

Scum do want scummy townies in the game, but that's first and foremost so they can be lynched instead of killed. Saving them from the lynch doesn't really make sense for that reason alone. Buddying a townie is a thing though, so I guess that's fair enough.

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:Not a fan of this whole bit here. 1) It sounds like coaching with the vote thing,

Yeah, I posted a lot of things in this game that I wouldn’t have posted in a different game. I shared more of my thoughts and reasons for thinking/doing things because I thought it would be useful for the newbies in learning how to play (not that they needed my help, I think some of them are already better players than I am).

Okay, I can see that. Coaching accusation retracted.

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote: If bessie was already reading faubiguy as scum, she should have moved her vote to follow moody.

I think I agree with this.

So you made a mistake? Can you explain your thought process in not moving your vote at the time?

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:I followed up on this Day 2... but bessie never really came back to it properly despite mentioning it repeatedly.

Can you be clearer as to what you are referring? Or just ask me the question again? I’m missing something here.

Umm... Your faubiguy read. That's what I followed up on. You were reading him as scum at the end of Day 1, and should have voted him then. I tried to open that up by questioning you about your faubiguy read, but you put off answering for a while, then eventually gave a neutral read. I was too focused on Echo at that point, but I'd intended to grill you on that some more.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:37 pm UTC

I got about halfway through my read on faubiguy and I fell asleep. Here's what I have. I should have time to finish and answer the rest of SDK's questions and respond to everyone else tonight.

SDK wrote:bessie, you seemed very sure that faubiguy was scum at the end of Day 2. Could you please state your case here? I don't have a good idea of why you think he's scum.

1. Low content, and most of it low on analysis.
2. Reads are mostly stuff like I think X is town, I get a scummy feeling from Y. No analysis, no reasons.
3. Rarely answers questions. Only answers when asked a variation of the same question multiple times by different people.
4. D1 self preservation vote for username. If you are town and scummy enough to be leading the votes, is it better to save yourself when you’re not sure of the other person’s scumminess? Or is it better to let yourself be lynched so you don’t distract from tomorrow’s scum hunting? I don’t know. But his happens in many games, and it’s usually viewed as scummy.
5. Following Echo’s vote on D2. I thought he was following a scum partner, and now we know she was town. But still, following anyone’s vote with weak or no reason is scummy. (And in the same post where he votes, he says Echo and SDK are the most likely to be scum, and he also says he’s reasonably sure one is town and the other is scum. Not sure if this is a scum tell but its suspicious.)

I currently think #3 is the most suspicious.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby SDK » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:25 pm UTC

Well, whatever. Deadlines coming up fast and I won't be here when it does. I'd feel better having the game solved, but this should be fine.

Vote: faubiguy.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby bessie » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:17 am UTC

I should probably just vote, but if I’m right there will be a D4. So I’ll go ahead and spill my guts in case I’m not here for it.

SDK wrote:Maybe we should discuss this further. You've used meta arguments before, if I remember correctly. Why not now?

Meta arguments. I keep flipping my opinion on whether or not meta arguments are a good strategy, or even useful. I guess they’re useful in that most of us make use of our/others' meta when we play. It’s usually how we start D1, with random voting based on player meta (for many this is a fun stage). How can you not? We’re a relatively small group and many of us have played mafia or other games together. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing. But trying to read a player based entirely on meta and how they acted in previous games can obscure what is happening in the current game. And in my opinion, it’s an unreliable strategy. Some players like moody (sorry to pick on you moody, but I wanted to use as an example someone in this game) have a scummy meta, and tend to quite often get lynched D1. There was actually some meaning in this earlier comment.
bessie wrote:There was a remark by me that his style was very consistent and that I couldn’t tell his scum game from his town game. So maybe moody was killed because scum thought that he wouldn’t do anything scummy and they wouldn’t be able to get him lynched. Hmm. Well, I guess my conclusion is that I can see a reason for faubiguy to kill moody.

I was alluding to moody’s meta, and that maybe a newbie scum team killed him because a veteran would know he usually gets lynched.

On the other hand it’s not just a scummy meta that can be misleading. I have a very townie meta (I guess in fairness I should pick on myself now). I’m usually the towniest townie in the game. I never get lynched. And why shouldn’t I have a townie meta? I’m always town (for the sake of this argument only consider completed games, no reference to open games). I’ve been mafia, member of a team, once in two years of playing. In a recent game someone read me as townie based on my town meta, to which I replied thanks, but when have you seen me play as scum? If someone reads me as townie based on my town meta, that’s suspicious to me because they don’t have a diverse enough data sample on which to base this read.

So on the whole, I think that it’s risky to rely on meta arguments because meta can be deceptive. Of course this would be my opinion because I’m not really good at meta reading players. Some players are. Some people are remarkably good at meta reads and can pick out the one thing that another player always does as scum and catch them. I can’t, and I’m not a particularly good scum hunter either. I can’t do a case based on a player’s behavioral patterns throughout the entire game. I do lists of points that don’t look right to me, often for technical reasons. So I’m struggling in this game with no contradicting claims or night results to pick apart.

Now that I’ve wasted a lot of time on a meta discussion that doesn’t matter, where the hell was I going with this? I guess my point is that it’s useless to make a meta argument on a player based on two games, and even less valid because he was town in both. So his behavior fit his town play. What do you have to compare it to? I believe that a primary read on a player should be based on their content in the current game, and meta-read-magic-insight, by those that possess the gift, should only be used to support their analysis, and not be the reason for the read.

Let’s see, is there anyone else I owe an answer besides SDK? I know I didn't get to all his questions, but I think I've given enough reasons for my suspicion of faubiguy. Well here are my closing thoughts.

Yablo wrote:Also, I was planning to put together a post after work last night, but we got a lot of snow, and it took nearly two hours to drive twenty miles.

Why, I’ve heard of this “snow” substance before, but I thought it was a myth my mother invented to make me believe my walk to school wasn’t so bad! (I hope you realize this is just a joke.) I like your latest post. I don’t really have a strong opinion on the content but it makes me feel better about not voting for you.

Opus_723 wrote:All that being said, I think faubiguy looks scummier than SDK. His early vote today seemed reckless if town, but it makes sense for scum with a buddy out there, either as a ploy to get town!SDK lynched or a way to provide distance from scumbuddy!SDK.

My thoughts too, more or less. If Opus is scum I’m going to cry.

faubiguy wrote:Rethinking it, I'm less sure that SDK is scum. I still think that he's the best choice by elimination though, since I'm almost sure Opus is town, and Yablo and bessie each seem more likely to be town than SDK does.

faubiguy, why are you still not giving any reasons for your reads?

Deadline in 7 hours. faubiguy, I’m thinking of voting for you, but I’ll wait a couple hours in case someone wants to post something brilliant. But please make it quick. I need to get up early tomorrow.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - D3

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:36 am UTC

Well, I think I've made up my mind at any rate.

VOTE: faubiguy

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby Suzaku » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:07 am UTC

Hammer!

Final Votals:

faubiguy - 3 (Yablo, SDK, Opus_723)
SDK - 1 (faubiguy)

Not voting (1) - bessie

faubiguy has been lynched and is dead. He was a Vanilla Town.

Game over.

Congratulations to the scum team of SDK and Opus_723.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby adnapemit » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:59 am UTC

Good job SDK and Opus, especially Opus for being the most convincing town player!
bessie wrote:If Opus is scum I’m going to cry.

*Hands bessie a tissue*
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:02 pm UTC

Opus did play well. I was not at all concerned about being lynched this final day - Opus had it covered either way.

Good game everyone. Echo kinda scares me a bit.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby Echo244 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:58 pm UTC

<Grins in a manner somewhere between lupine and lycanthropic>

Yup, I've got to say I wasn't really looking at Opus. Well played, scum team!

Sorry about my abrupt absence from this - I was kind of looking forward to taking on SDK once I'd picked up on what he was doing (and D2 as my last chance to do anything without it being OMGUSy) but life went a bit work-eat-sleep for a few days. I was expecting to get lynched regardless, but I'd rather have put up more of a challenge.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby moody7277 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:12 pm UTC

So, was it Opus or SDK who wanted me dead N1?
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:37 pm UTC

Both.

Opus wrote:Yablo and moody are being very agreeable with each other, so maybe we should break that up. I would want to get rid of moody in that case, since I think Yablo would look more suspicious afterward. He tended to agree with moody, not the other way around.

SDK wrote:My pick for the kill would be either moody or Echo. The faubiguy wagon is the obvious place to go tomorrow, and moody will be happy to push that. That's a good thing, but he is a strong player otherwise, so I don't want to leave him alive for too long, especially if he keeps up the work he started doing at the end of the Day. Echo is a safe enough kill, but it feels a little off to be killing a beginner who hasn't been contributing a huge amount.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:17 pm UTC

That was great, everyone! I have to admit I was really surprised at how much town cred I racked up (there was a string of like fours posts almost in a row on D2 where people all ranked me as the most townie, and that was just a little terrifying). I was starting to worry I was overdoing it.

I honestly did NOT want to be mafia in my very first game, so I was pretty nervous. But this turned out to be a lot of fun. Great game everyone!

bessie wrote:If Opus is scum I’m going to cry.


Geez, bessie... I almost didn't have the heart to hammer faubiguy after that. :oops:

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:46 pm UTC

Opus_723 wrote:I honestly did NOT want to be mafia in my very first game, so I was pretty nervous. But this turned out to be a lot of fun. Great game everyone!

Being scum in your first game can sometimes be to your advantage. Not just because newbies can get away with a lot more crap, but because being a townie is so hard! Being scum, you're part of a team! You don't need to worry about who to trust or who's out to get you... Bodies just start stacking up and you go with the flow. :D
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby Yablo » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:38 pm UTC

Suzaku wrote:Congratulations to the scum team of SDK and Opus_723.

Congratulations, indeed. Seriously. Opus_723 was the only one I felt sure was town.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby bessie » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:23 am UTC

*accepts tissue from adnapemit*

Well played scum! Opus, brilliant first game, I will need to watch out for you. I checked the thread last night before I went to bed. You had already posted, and I knew we lost. SDK played his usual fine game. I was completely fooled. Question for SDK and Opus: why didn’t you hammer after Yablo voted?

*sniffle*

Oh well, an hour wasted on a post cautioning against reads based on meta alone. It looks like I was wrong again. The best strategy is to lynch SDK on D1 in every game. :shock:

SDK wrote: Echo kinda scares me a bit.

What SDK said. I hope she’s on my team next time. Thank you Suzaku for modding the game and to everyone for playing. I hope to play with all of you again soon. As I said on D3, I think some of the newbies are already better players than I am.

And I would like to thank everyone again that sent me condolences in one of the game threads or by PM. I am grateful for your well wishes.

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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby SDK » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:42 am UTC

Oh yeah! Forgot to thank Suzaku! Thanks! Was a good game.

bessie wrote: It looks like I was wrong again. The best strategy is to lynch SDK on D1 in every game. :shock:

Please no. I'll be town 75% of the time, I promise!

(If you want to lynch me at lylo from now on, I'll understand.)

We didn't hammer because we were never online at the same time. We'd even arranged on how to signal each other, but it never worked out. I should have just voted earlier though. The game was moving slowly enough that I could have waited for Opusat that point.
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Re: Matrix6 Redux Take 2 - Game Over

Postby Suzaku » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:06 am UTC

SDK wrote:Oh yeah! Forgot to thank Suzaku! Thanks! Was a good game.

Glad you enjoyed it :) and you're welcome.
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