Smalltown Werewolf PYP - F is for Finished!

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SirGabriel
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:07 pm UTC

Snark wrote:
SirGabriel wrote:Vote: Snark
for claiming we should waste lynches on druids.
Think about how the druids benefit from claiming. Then think about how town benefits from the druids claiming. Then realize that there's no waste because we get confirmed non-scum to not waste our many investigation roles on.

The druids only benefit from claiming if some party is willing to use two kills on them. I don't see how it would benefit any party, town or otherwise, to waste two kills on people who aren't trying to kill them.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:30 pm UTC

As the D1 lynch can be a bit random and killing an independent is a better result for Town than killing one of their own, I think there is merit in the idea that the Druids ally themselves with Town. We could then choose to lynch the less useful one and get a truthful power-role with the other player. This also reduces the overall confusion and makes it easier to guess the actual setup. The main risk here is that there might not be a second chance when we can spare a lynch, so we might have to break our promise.
To summarize: Town gains truthful power-role, less confusion and no killing our own on D1, Druids gain allies and do not have to rely on double Jester shenanigans. Town cannot really lose with the deal, Druids however run some risk.
I'm not sure that this is the best plan for Druids but from Town perspective it has only upsides.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:48 pm UTC

Snark wrote:
Lawrencelot wrote:Vote: Oscar

Unvote

Vote: Lawrencelot

Since I don't have an actual vote.

SirGabriel wrote:Vote: Snark
for claiming we should waste lynches on druids.
Think about how the druids benefit from claiming. Then think about how town benefits from the druids claiming. Then realize that there's no waste because we get confirmed non-scum to not waste our many investigation roles on.


I don't understand why the Druids would claim though. If they claim then it would be silly for us to lynch them because they aren't scum. It would be better for us to just leave them hanging and use the slightly better odds of hitting scum in some of the other 24 players. Plus, if we lynch one, then we would pretty much have to waste a 2nd lynch on them later if we wanted to hold up our end of the bargain and have each side benefit. And why should we just be ok with throwing away two lynches on players that aren't scum? We don't lose if there are Druids on day 6. We lose if there are aliens. We don't lose if there's more Druids than townies. We lose if there are more werewolves than townies.

I also don't really understand how we get confirmed non-scum. If anything a claim of Druid would totally require follow-up investigations. I feel like that whole situation would just throw way too much noise around and cause too much confusion and possibilities for false claims and counter claims. I don't see how we would benefit.

In summation, my stance is, if you a Druid, keep that shit to yoself. If you want to win then get creative.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Snark » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:08 pm UTC

Ok, since a few spoilsports already ruined it, and I don't want people to actively-lurk for the rest of the day debating the point:

1. Yes, I was trying to bait Druids into claiming
2. No, it's not in our best interest to waste lynches on them, day 1 or otherwise, although it is in our best interest to know who they are so we can ignore them.
3. Yes, I was hoping the druids would be fooled while town would publicly praise my plan to help draw them out.
4. No, that did not work.

I'd FOS the people who opposed the plan because it's better for scum if druids are hidden and spread lots of confusion trying to get themselves killed one way or the other. On the other hand, maybe most people would take what I said at face value and think that I would actually support lynching them after they claimed.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Diemo » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:43 pm UTC

In summation, my stance is, if you a Druid, keep that shit to yoself. If you want to win then get creative.


Why are you giving advice to non-town factions? FoS!

Lawrrencelot, why did you vote for Oscar? Are you that worried about being killed that you decided to roleblock him(?)(I forget who is playing Oscar and am in a hurry) this early?

I agree with the people who think that aliens are top priority. We shouldn't worry too much about the werewolves (who also want to kill aliens) until the aliens are dead.

I was worried that Conman the super Ordinary fellow was a cult recruiter for a while, but that is against the rules. So I say ignore the extra role thing. Alignment is random anyway, so the fact he has a secret role is a null tell.

Snark is making sense to me, seems relatively townie. Lawrencelot seems relatively scummy. IO am also getting a bit of a werewolf vibe from DJ, but that could be the fact that he is focusing on aliens. SDK hasn't done anything crazy yet, is clearly scum. Nobody else is on my radar at the moment.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Lawrencelot » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:03 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
Lawrencelot wrote:Dje being concerned about aliens, he sounds like a werewolf to me. His way of writing looks to me like someone trying to pretend he's not a werewolf. Plus I don't think I agree with him.


Wine this may be, but I find this post suspicious.

Numerous other people have taken the same view of the Aliens which I have, yet you seem only to be singling me out so far.

It's not wine, the right term is OMGUS, but only if you'd vote me I think. Why is my post suspicious?

To clarify, the following quotes of Dje just feel fake to me, it feels written from the perspective of a werewolf:
Djehutynakht wrote:-The Aliens seem to be the perhaps the biggest threat due mostly to the fact that they're a time bomb. I suggest we focus primarily on them first, although of course we definitely need to keep the werewolves in check. It might honestly be in the werewolves best interest to focus this way as well.


Djehutynakht wrote:Alright then, I then re-iterate my firm stance that I think we should be hunting some Aliens.

I'm sure the werewolves can agree with that, and then we can work out our differences after. If I'm gonna be taken out by scum, then I wanna at least be taken out by Earth scum, dammit!

There are probably some werewolves among the players that agree with Dje, but they look more convincing to me somehow. This also has to do with them saying nothing more than 'I agree', so I will definitely look at players who don't take a real stance later on in the game.

Diemo wrote:Lawrrencelot, why did you vote for Oscar?

Other people found this scummy but you're the first one to actually ask. This is my explanation:
-If roadierich/Oscar is non-town, blocking him is obviously the best course of action.
-If he is town, from roadierich's perspective it is best to use the kill, since he knows he is town and his decision won't be influenced by mafia, unlike the lynch vote. Even on the first night, without any info, with high probability of hitting town, it is best for him to use the kill, because the benefits (also more information) outweigh the drawbacks.
-From my point of view there are no benefits: I don't know whether roadierich is town, so the drawbacks of letting him kill heavily outweigh the potential benefits for town. I propose to investigate roadierich so that if he's town we can all benefit from this power or lynch whoever votes for him, but obviously this can only happen from tomorrow onwards.

It surprises me that I was the first to vote for him actually.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:12 pm UTC

Reasons I can think of for Snark trying to get Druids to claim:
1) As he stated - to get them to claim so that town can avoid lynching them/investigating them etc.
2) To avoid wasting a NK as a scum faction.
3) Because he is a jester and wants to make himself look scummy somehow.
4) Because he is a druid and wants everyone to think that he isn't for some reason.
5) Because he wanted to lynch focused on the druids, so as to distract from trying to find aliens.
6) Because as scum or third party he wanted to make us think one of the other cases was the truth.
7) Something else that I might have missed or forgotten.

Overall, I'm quite willing to let it pass for now, as from the little I know of Snark, this sounds like a typical thing for him to do.

On other people: I strongly disapprove of anybody trying to reduce the number of kills. Reducing the number of kills could be a very alien thing to do, as they are trying to survive. If there aren't kills, then they are guaranteed to win. In other words: FOS Lawrencelot. Ninja'd by Lawrencelot. My FOS still stands. If anything, I'm more suspicious because of the fact that he neglected to mention aliens at all in his post. Even scum!roadierich with a kill is likely to be trying to hit aliens. Only problem then is alien!roadierich, and there's a very slim chance that he is, (max of 4/26, I believe).

I'm suspicious of Vytron for not claiming something crazy by now :P
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:16 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:
In summation, my stance is, if you a Druid, keep that shit to yoself. If you want to win then get creative.


Why are you giving advice to non-town factions? FoS!


Umm, because I think it'd be really silly and boring and unhelpful and possibly even damaging to the town's chances of success if they claimed. If they even exist. Yes, they will be trying to cause confusion anyways, but I don't want to give people outs where they can false claim.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 pm UTC

Lawrencelot wrote:
Diemo wrote:Lawrrencelot, why did you vote for Oscar?

Other people found this scummy but you're the first one to actually ask. This is my explanation:

Wait, does this mean that if we don't ask you directly, you're content to just sit around and not explain yourself?

Lawrencelot wrote:-From my point of view there are no benefits: I don't know whether roadierich is town, so the drawbacks of letting him kill heavily outweigh the potential benefits for town.

By your own words the above cannot be true if you're town. If you conclude that it's beneficial for Oscar to use his kill if he's town, then that must mean that it's beneficial to the Town as a whole and by extension to you as well. Furthermore you still did not explain why you hurried with your vote on Oscar, when there was time for more discussion and an informed decision later.

FoS: Lawrencelot

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby mpolo » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:36 pm UTC

Wow. This thing really blossomed quickly.

On a quick readthrough (admittedly not all roles have been grokked):

Aliens have to be completely eliminated in 6 days, while we can theoretically take longer on wolves. Since it is in practice difficult to get "alien" vibes that are not also "werewolf" vibes, with my power, I only have to worry about finding scum. However, the druggie should likely try to get 2 people checked for alienness until we get them in control.

There are a lot of weird investigators (including mine) and weird kills. It's to our benefit to have more town kills, not so much if a scum gets an extra kill.

A student just came in for help, so I have to wait on this...
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:40 pm UTC

I mean, just from metagaming a bit here, I feel like roadierich is more than likely not werewolf or alien. Doesn't mean he is pro-town, but he's at least not one of the two major factions that we are worrying about right now.

I was thinking he might be a worthy target of my investigation tonight, but if he came back as having chat abilities that would make him most likely a mason in my eyes. So if he is in fact a mason with a kill power, I don't want to expose that.

I am still having trouble keeping track of all the roles, but I think having someone who could investigate alignment look at him would be best. I think that would be either Dr Ug or frogman.

Also, as I review the roles I should get this out of the way.

Vote Suzaka
Unvote


I'm not sure what I think of Lawrencelot yet though. Not sure if his actions ping me a scummy or just misguided. Was thinking at first more misguided, but now like others it's feeling more scummy.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:44 pm UTC

crucialityfactor wrote:I mean, just from metagaming a bit here, I feel like roadierich is more than likely not werewolf or alien. Doesn't mean he is pro-town, but he's at least not one of the two major factions that we are worrying about right now.

According to the mod all alignments were assigned randomly and independent from role abilities, so you shouldn't consider metagame implications like that.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:56 pm UTC

Not sure what's up with the wagon on Lawrencelot. I said I was strongly considering voting for Oscar, no one said anything. Then Lawrencelot voted for him and all of a sudden that's scummy.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:59 pm UTC

Yes, because he didn't wait for any discussion when there is plenty of time to decide if we want to block him or not. I'm not opposed to the idea per se, I just want to see first what we can find out about him. Of course that would require him posting first. :wink:

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:01 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:Not sure what's up with the wagon on Lawrencelot. I said I was strongly considering voting for Oscar, no one said anything. Then Lawrencelot voted for him and all of a sudden that's scummy.

In that case IGMEOY on you. I've been having a hard time keeping track of who has said what already, so not surprised that I missed your's earlier. Lawrencelot's reasoning seemed wrong to me, so I feel that he's more suspicious, and (Ninja'd by Sabrar on this) he acted without discussion.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:07 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
crucialityfactor wrote:I mean, just from metagaming a bit here, I feel like roadierich is more than likely not werewolf or alien. Doesn't mean he is pro-town, but he's at least not one of the two major factions that we are worrying about right now.

According to the mod all alignments were assigned randomly and independent from role abilities, so you shouldn't consider metagame implications like that.


Hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest. Yes, I'm sure our loving mod made sure to not betray anyone with their roles, but at the same time he wants a balanced and fun game. I think the main point I'm getting at is that an alignment check would be of more use than knowing if he was in a group or not.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:16 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Yes, because he didn't wait for any discussion when there is plenty of time to decide if we want to block him or not. I'm not opposed to the idea per se, I just want to see first what we can find out about him. Of course that would require him posting first. :wink:

Okay, that's a good point.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby mpolo » Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:17 pm UTC

As I recall, we tried to do arguments like that in the last Smalltown and it came back to haunt us. I think that it is 100% possible that someone has a useless power due to getting the "wrong" alignment, though Misnomer does seem to have tried to create powers that have at least some utility for any alignment/group.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - *SIGNUPS CLOSED*

Postby Sungura » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:15 pm UTC

Holy bologna this is a fast crazy game. With OOTD's crazy games I kinda went with the crazy and threw shit out there until something worked so i guess I will use that method because otherwise i won't be able to keep up. I have a busy real life, after all.

Firstly: speculations on roles:
Albert the Archaeologist (moody7277) - I think this role will be more handy once we have a night behind us so we have dead player alignments known. If we can track known bad guys, it will be our best way to suss out their buddies.

Bunny the Bumblebee Bat (sungura) - <3 I can survive the first night :) This is a good way for mods to get me to like their game so nice going, modnomer.

Calvin the Crotchety Old Man (crucialityfactor) - LOL this is the perfect role for CF. it is interesting role but helpfulness is variable, as there are many roles that may have chat but are not anti-town. I think this will be more helpful in middle and end-game, perhaps, for example combined with Moody's role this could be powerful if they select the same people. CF figures out who can chat, and then Moody finds out what about.

Darryl the Drug-taking Dog (Dr Ug) - Interesting cop role. useful over time, and perhaps should target the same two of the same three players the first two nights, and then after that at least one of the same player each night to keep track of the changing names. As he learns the new randomized alignment names, he can use the knowledge of the former aligment to figure out the new one he turns in. bascially like code cracking, using each previous night's code to crack the current night. I think he should - at least for he first night - select the player who is lynched as one of the players, so in the new day we have the real alignment name plus the code name. This solves for sure at least one code which can be used from then on.

Elmo the Exquisite Eagle (dimochka) - So...always last minute vote someone who isn't going to be bandwagoned on.

Father Patrick the Franciscan Priest (SirGabriel) - This would be hilarious as a scum role. that's what I would do if I was mod.

Gary the Grieving Widow (Sabrar) - So kinda like a hero's thing. Very powerful if they survive.

Heather the Hospital Administrator (Van) - Hm. this seems like a third alignment of sorts, not really scum or town. It can be very bad for town because they could easily loose power roles but under the guise of "good for town". But it doesn't make sense to have a bunch of scum as doctors. So yeah. I'm thinking some third party alignment here.

Iggy the Irrelevant Idiot (Snark) - I hate vote altering roles so I'm just gonna ignore this one.

Jimmy the Janitor (jimbobmadcoodle) - Surely a town role, or maybe third party. Extremely powerful for whatever side he belongs to, though.

Karl the Karateka (Znirk) - If you use this on me I will avenge with all the rage!

Luna the Lycanthrope (patzer) - A friendly wer-lycan, okee. Traitor of sorts, perhaps?

Marco the Meticulous US Marine (#HBC | YOLOSWAG) - ugh another vote role

Nobody the Nameless (Faubiguy) - soooo like an empath? is this an ultimate protection role or just a good way to get killed? I guess it is a good way to keep town power roles alive, or learn more about the alignments of other players.

Oscar the Original GangsterTM (roadierich) - So...a SK that is easy to keep in check. I think I'd cop him quickly, because this is easily a pawn role with a vote on him blocking him. We can find out a lot if we know what he is, and who tries to block him. There is just gonna be wine here, otherwise.

Perry the Perfectly Ordinary Fellow (ConMan) - seems like a third party type role.

Quenton the Quality Assurance Lab Worker (mpolo) - This is an extremely powerful role for whatever side they are on.

Remus the Ranger
(Djehutynakht) - Being out at night isn't dangerous unless you're unprepaired. I backpack. I know this. I think the folks trying to do a 10 mile hike in flip flops with a camera and a single water bottle starting at 3pm is dumb as shit, sure. Anyway. Again really powerful role and hopefully on town side. It makes most sense for this to be a town or maybe third party role.

Suzaku the Samurai (Suzaku) - This would be an interesting scum role.

Thomas the Tenure-Track Professor (frogman) - I like this role. But it leaves frog up to being in control by unknown forces, so depending on the random committee, we could learn a lot about alignments not just directly but indirectly. Also so much wine is possible here.

Ulysses the Undersea Explorer (Opus_723) - Soooo we know he isn't alien. That's good. Doesn't preclude anything else though, and seems an easy way for scum to escape and survive in endgame.

Victor the Vegetarian Butcher (Lawrencelot) - haha, niiiice. So we need to help Lawrence figure out who the wolfs are. Perhaps our friendly werlyc can help?

Wolfgang the Welder (SDK) - This one seems like it would be funny to make a werewolf. I mean, wolf is in the name. I'd make a funny like that if I was a mod.

Xela the Xenomorph (Diemo) - This role scares me...I don't think I want it in the game come day 3. If town aligned though, will be hugely helpful.

Y the Yearning Spy (weiyaoli) - This role confuses me. but fatal crushes are always a bad thing.

Zenith the Zombie (Vytron) - This seems alien.

Please note that alignments are fully randomised, so no role is more or less likely to be town etc.
Oh, well, there goes my thoughts above on alignment then. That's no fun!
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby moody7277 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:21 pm UTC

First thing first:

Vote: Suzaku
Unvote

I would have done a joke vote on Roadie for being a gangster, but then I read the description. Lawrencalot looked like he wasn't even joking, so IGMEoY. Following is how I categorized the roles (Marco is doubled up because of falling into two categories):

investigators:
Albert- dead player watcher/tracker
Darryl- three semi-indicative alignments per night
Elmo- watches non-lynched vote
Jimmy- receives no. anti-town votes on a lynch
Luna- tracker, werewolf miller
Thomas- research project depends on approval of 4 of 6 other people
Y- can get a copy of investigations from target
Zenith- gets actions and investigation results from person he hammers

protectors:
Heather- forces other people to be Doctors
Marco- unless voting
Victor- removes kill from werewolf

kills:
Marco- unless voting
Oscar- unless voted against
Suzaku- only if voted against
Xela- unblockable starting D3, alien miller

other:
Bunny- hide power
Calvin- chat detection
Father Patrick- everything proof except kill
Gary- copies players starting D4
Iggy- voteless/makes voteless
Karl- de-protects
Nobody- redirects to himself
Perry- "perfectly ordinary"
Quenton- detects unsuccessful actions
Remus- roleblocker, no. determined by no of kills (starts D2)
Ulysses- can remove himself from a day
Wolfgang- bonds two players, lynch one and both die

Another point from last game, the investigations were all in the hands of scum, so take that statement about roles being any alignment very seriously.

Sungura wrote: I think this role will be more handy once we have a night behind us so we have dead player alignments known. If we can track known bad guys, it will be our best way to suss out their buddies.


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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:39 pm UTC

Sungura, Misnomer specifically said that no role is more likely than any other to have a particular alignment. I'm pretty sure he created the role powers first and then randomly assigned alignments.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:48 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:Sungura, Misnomer specifically said that no role is more likely than any other to have a particular alignment. I'm pretty sure he created the role powers first and then randomly assigned alignments.

I think she realised that - see her last comment.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:07 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
SirGabriel wrote:Sungura, Misnomer specifically said that no role is more likely than any other to have a particular alignment. I'm pretty sure he created the role powers first and then randomly assigned alignments.

I think she realised that - see her last comment.

Sorry, didn't read the whole post.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Opus_723 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:10 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:I agree with this on principle, but this is regardless of Suzaku's role. This is because everyone being afraid of being killable by him are thinking about self-preservation. As town, I don't need to preserve myself, because if Suzaku kills me I can still win with town. Becoming unkillable is therefore scummy.

VOTE: Suzaku
UNVOTE


You just need to do that.

This is helpful because we can have two lynches per day, at least, by voting normally and then underline-voting for Suzaku's target. Then, if Suzaku doesn't carry out the kill it's because we underline-voted one of this scumbuddies.

So the best course of action is to use Suzaku as a second lynch, but this only works if everyone becomes killable.


I'm not worried about Suzaku killing me personally. I was worried about the cumulative damage to town of giving werewolves/aliens an extra kill every night starting on N1. And I was never against turning him into a vigilante, I just wanted an investigation first. I hadn't considered your idea of putting him on a leash with town votes, so to speak. That's better than nothing, at least.

However, I still think a confirmed-town vigilante acting on his own would be much better than a second lynch that alien werewolf mafioso jester scum can manipulate. So I'm still against it. But it looks like it's too late to avoid this, and a second lynch is better than nothing. I still want an investigation on him as soon as possible.

Vote: Suzaku

Unvote

On a related note, I don't like that Snark is taking advantage of the underline vote without voting Suzaku. I propose a new rule: people who haven't made themselves killable don't get an underline vote.

Vote: Snark

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Opus_723 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:22 pm UTC

Gah. I thought Iggy had a zero-weighted vote, but he's just voteless, so he can't make himself killable yet.

UNVOTE

I still say he shouldn't be able to underline vote until he makes himself killable, probably tomorrow after he transfers his no-vote.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sungura » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:42 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
SirGabriel wrote:Sungura, Misnomer specifically said that no role is more likely than any other to have a particular alignment. I'm pretty sure he created the role powers first and then randomly assigned alignments.

I think she realised that - see her last comment.

Sorry, didn't read the whole post.

That's why I missed that note from Modnomer until I got through my post, and thought "oh well, i'm leaving how it is" ;)
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sungura » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:55 pm UTC

Opus_723 wrote:
Vytron wrote:I agree with this on principle, but this is regardless of Suzaku's role. This is because everyone being afraid of being killable by him are thinking about self-preservation. As town, I don't need to preserve myself, because if Suzaku kills me I can still win with town. Becoming unkillable is therefore scummy.

VOTE: Suzaku
UNVOTE


You just need to do that.

This is helpful because we can have two lynches per day, at least, by voting normally and then underline-voting for Suzaku's target. Then, if Suzaku doesn't carry out the kill it's because we underline-voted one of this scumbuddies.

So the best course of action is to use Suzaku as a second lynch, but this only works if everyone becomes killable.


I'm not worried about Suzaku killing me personally. I was worried about the cumulative damage to town of giving werewolves/aliens an extra kill every night starting on N1. And I was never against turning him into a vigilante, I just wanted an investigation first. I hadn't considered your idea of putting him on a leash with town votes, so to speak. That's better than nothing, at least.

However, I still think a confirmed-town vigilante acting on his own would be much better than a second lynch that alien werewolf mafioso jester scum can manipulate. So I'm still against it. But it looks like it's too late to avoid this, and a second lynch is better than nothing. I still want an investigation on him as soon as possible.

Vote: Suzaku

Unvote

On a related note, I don't like that Snark is taking advantage of the underline vote without voting Suzaku. I propose a new rule: people who haven't made themselves killable don't get an underline vote.

Vote: Snark

Have I missed with Suzaku agreed to this arrangement? I think it is a dangerous move without knowing Suzaku's alliance. I understand the concept of "it gives us two lynches" but especially first day, how does two lynches help us? We have NO information on alignments right now.

Putting it as simple as "if suzaku doesn't kill the underlined votee, then that underlined votee must be scum" is a false dichotomy. We don't know if suzaku is a lover, or mason, so this honestly just creates a lot of WIFOM around their role. Would you want to force a mason to kill a mason-buddy, or a lover their lover? Or what about sibling survivor which isn't exactly anti-town? What if they are a jester and uses the not-kill to get themselves lynched? If asked outright, of course they will say "I'm Town". In fact, SDK asked this in one of the first posts of the game. Frankly, a connection I find odd. What else is Suzaku going to say? Seems quite a setup that little exchange.

I think it is a scum move to suggest that everyone vote and unvote Suzaku so they can be killed. It gives extra power to who-knows-who and creates a TON of wifom to do it in a voting manner as I outlined above. It even has the potential of outing people at the detriment of the town. And it makes you appear townie on the outset "HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I"M WILLING TO BE KILLED!" but it really isn't - yes town wins in end game even if people are lost along the way, but this game is crazy, there are lots of factions and total non-town members outnumber town right now. So no. The suggestion of this gambit pings me of scummy, actually.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby faubiguy » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:15 pm UTC

I agree with Sungura here. Even if Suzaku agrees to the plan and is town, and everyone agrees to temporarily vote for him, using his kill as a second lynch is still far from foolproof. In addition to players Suzaku may not want to kill (lovers, masons, etc.), if scum has access to a doctor or roleblocker, they'd be able interfere with Suzaku's kill to get him lynched the next day (and potentially save one of their members as well). Going along with this strategy blindly gives scum more power to control and confuse town.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Opus_723 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:21 pm UTC

Sungura- Your quote seems to imply that your post is directed at me, which I don't get. I hate this idea. But there were already 7 votes on Suzaku before I voted, and I was the only one actively opposing this plan before you and faubiguy spoke up just now. I really wish you two had said something earlier.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sungura » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:28 pm UTC

No need to get so defensive Opus. Game is up for literally 24 hrs lots of folks haven't posted. Jumping on if you didn't want to was silly. I was simply quoting the thought train. And I don't understand why you went along so soon if you didn't want to, a lot of people haven't done the vote unvote. I guess now you can get defensive because your jumping around and quick to defense is a huge FOS from me. You're playing the fence line jumping back and forth with the current "good town" logic. That reeks of scum.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Opus_723 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:44 pm UTC

I don't like the idea, but I think Suzaku is more dangerous as a half-vig with only a few people participating in the underline-vote than if we go ahead and implement SDK/Vytron's scheme. We've already given Suzaku a handful of targets, and Snark is already trying to use him. I think we've gone past the point of no return, and we really just need to be all in now. I still wish, however, that more people had spoken out against this before the ball got rolling.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby frogman » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:48 pm UTC

I am also with Sungura on this one.

More town-aligned kills before Day 6 is really what we ought to be pushing here. The aliens seem like a very scary team, and the fact that there are so many of us but so few aliens mean that we almost surely need to get lucky in order to kill the aliens. Quantity is the key here. I'm hesitant to suggest that collateral damage is preferred here, but honestly, losing a weaker town role as well as an alien is almost certainly worth it.

However, there's no information about Suzaku's role and I don't want to give a scum team an extra kill. Unless there are any reasonable objections by the next time I post, I'm going to use my research proposal to investigate Suzaku and hope that my tenure committee is generous.

I don't think that we're past the point of no return on this one. I advise no one else to vote Suzaku today unless their intention is to lynch.

Ninja'd: Opus, why do you think Suzaku is more dangerous as a half-vig? Surely less killing power means less dangerous.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby ConMan » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:51 pm UTC

I'm mostly with Sungura and faubiguy - if we can, at the very least, rule out the possibility of Suzaku being in one of the major scum groups, then I'm fine with the idea of giving him the ability to target as many people as possible and using that ability as a vig (or an SK, to be fair), on the assumption that he mainly uses it to take out the scum based on the investigation results we get. However, Alien/Suzaku and Werewolf/Suzaku are two *extremely* concerning combinations, and if we can't rule either of them out then we shouldn't be handing him so many targets.

Also, I think that those players with investigative abilities should look at targeting disparate groups of people D1 to get lots of information, but from either D2 or D3 we should then be trying to do some coordination to try to corroborate results.

And Lawrencealot's vote on Roadie really is a cheap move - sure, maybe after some discussion, we would come to the same decision, but we have *plenty* of time to at least hear from all the players, and to just outright roleblock someone before their first post in-thread (especially when, as frogman points out, having lots of kills available to us is likely to be important right now) rubs me the wrong way.

Vote: Lawrencealot
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:06 am UTC

At this point, it's easy for werewolves/aliens to just not vote Suzaku, but still try to sway his kills. This is the best scenario for scum. They would be immune to the Samurai, but they could still try to slip underline votes in. That's why I proposed that underline votes shouldn't count unless Suzaku can kill them. Or if Suzaku is scum, he can just ignore the votes entirely, claim that not everyone was on board with the plan, and proceed to start killing townies. The difference between eight targets and twenty-six isn't really significant at this point, since he still has a decent pool to pick from tonight. I would rather that all of us pick it together, rather than possible scum!Suzaku or a few immune scum underliners.

I think we should go all in to prevent his N1 kill (which he absolutely has now) from being out of our control. A second lynch is still prone to influence by scum, but it's better than what we've got now. We can't go back to powerless Suzaku, so we might as well exert some control over his kill.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby patzer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:42 am UTC

I agree with Opus. It would have been better if we decided whether or not to vote Suzaku beforehand, but now that seven people have already done so, we can't go back on that he's so powerful that it would be best for us to all vote for him, to level the playing field.

Unvote

Vote: Suzaku

Unvote

Vote: Victor (Lawrencelot)


Seems like a good idea to lynch Lawrencelot. Jesters don't win if lynched on day 1- so I assume he isn't a Jester- and the vote on Oscar seems incredibly scummy given that it was done with no warning.

Are there any players that haven't posted yet today?
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sungura » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:52 am UTC

Yeah see? Now that rings of scum like "oh shit this was a bad idea, so now we got to get all the town on board". No.

Combined that with opus continued back and forth wishy washy I am confident in this vote.

vote: opus

In addition I think it will tell us a lot for day 2 about this whole mess.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby ConMan » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:07 am UTC

patzer wrote:Are there any players that haven't posted yet today?

Sure are! Including this post, in decreasing order of post count, here's the player list:

10 - Sabrar
7 - Djehutynakt, SirGabriel
6 - ConMan, jimbobmacdoodle, Opus_723, Snark
5 - crucialityfactor, Lawrencealot, patzer, Sungura, Znirk
4 - faubiguy, Vytron
3 - dimochka, frogman
2 - mpolo, SDK, Suzaku, YOLOSWAG
1 - Diemo, moody7277, Van, weiyaoli
0 - Dr Ug, RoadieRich

So, paging Dr Ug and Mr RoadieRich, please report to the thread :P
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Vytron » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:20 am UTC

Yeah, Lawrencelot's vote for Opus is sealing the deal for me, and I haven't liked much the rest of his content.

Vote: Lawrencelot

On Sungura Vs. Opus, it looks more like "I think you're scum, because of our disagreement" than something actually scummy happening.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby faubiguy » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:35 am UTC

As far as I can tell, Lawrencelot has only voted for Suzaku and RoadieRich (both temporarily), though Sungura has voted for Opus.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby patzer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:40 am UTC

Vytron wrote:Yeah, Lawrencelot's vote for Opus is sealing the deal for me


I assume you meant Oscar/RoadieRich here?

it's confusing, having two sets of names to use... :)

I agree that Bunny/Sungura's vote on Ulysses/Opus doesn't seem to be particularly well-placed. IMO, it makes sense for us all to vote Suzaku, now that eight of us have done so. Also it's a bit odd that the only detailed analysis that Bunny/Sungura has done of most of the players is that based on role descriptions, which was obviously incorrect. Seems strange that she'd actually take the time to write all of that out before realising that the roles were randomised.
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