Dollhouse Mafia - Game Over

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby crucialityfactor » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:19 pm UTC

Hi everyone. I'm sorry. I am here. Just had a very busy week. I will try to take some time to get more meaningful content. I hate playing in games with lurkers and I have become one in this game. 😞

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:51 pm UTC

Deadline is in ~4 hours! Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
freezeblade - 3 (Diemo, adnapemit, mpolo)
bessie - 1 (freezeblade)
Carlington - 1 (jimbobmacdoodle)
crucialityfactor - 1 (emlightened)
mpolo - 1 (bessie)

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby freezeblade » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:06 pm UTC

I was gone over the weekend (at the parents house fighting with a lemon tree) and it now appears that I am set to be lynched.

This won't help town at all, and I'll tell you why: I'm Dr. Claire Saunders. I'm sure you know exactly what this means, as I said my role actions are aligned with my role name.

unvote
vote: mpolo

I feel like this is the most likely to be agreed upon second-in-running besides me.

I will be protecting myself tonight, as I'm now in danger of being killed in the night if I'm not lynched.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby freezeblade » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:08 pm UTC

EBWOP:
vote: mpolo

didn't look bolded to me, not sure if it's my monitor at work or not.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby bessie » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:09 pm UTC

Short rambling post because I need to leave for work.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - Why did you pick out mpolo above other people who were against No Lynch, but didn't vote, specifically emlightened? She was one of those you highlighted as possible scum in your original all FoS/IGEMOY reads list.

For reference:
mpolo wrote:I'm not terribly comfortable with "No Lynch" as a vote target on Day 1. No Lynch this early tends to favor scum. Bessie has probably been around long enough to know them, which makes it a little bit suspicious. I don't want to turn this into a huge witch-hunt for people who vote "No Lynch", but something had to be said about it.

Because to me mpolo’s vague post seems like he was fishing for a wagon he didn’t want to start. emlightened didn’t vote either but she did provide a read based on that post.

Some final observations in case SK!Carlington kills me tonight.

The lurking in this game has made it difficult to get reads on some players, because as I already explained here you don’t know why they’re lurking. crucialityfactor explained he had real life issues (thank you) but I have no idea if Carlington has issues or if he’s laying low trying to make it to D2. freezeblade has been especially unhelpful, surpassing his usual unhelpful D1 meta. But I don’t think freezeblade usually posts on weekends, and I only realized this morning that in the US it is a 3 day weekend (Presidents Day) for some people (and it was Valentines Day, but hey I’m married so nothing special going on for me :? ). I usually post more on weekends and most players usually post more on weekdays, and because of the Monday deadline the weekend posters appear more active. Final thought is that I think on D2 we should look carefully at who was trying to stay alive by playing a safe neutral game, by not trying to be too helpful so they don’t look too townie, or not contributing so they don’t say something scummy or something they may need to contradict later.

Ninja'd by freezeblade just as I hit preview. Sorry I don't have time for any more but I'm already running late.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:04 pm UTC

Night has fallen.

Final votals:
freezeblade - 3 (Diemo, adnapemit, mpolo)
mpolo - 2 (bessie, freezeblade)
Carlington - 1 (jimbobmacdoodle)
crucialityfactor - 1 (emlightened)

freezeblade has been lynched. Please refrain from posting until D2 starts.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:12 pm UTC

'We all know that she's not the real Dr Saunders, just a doll! She must have been reprogrammed by Rossum!'

Such were the cries that could be heard all around the Dollhouse. Finally the will of a small majority prevailed and Claire was executed (but humanely, so as not to upset anyone too much. Well, apart from Claire that is).

Slowly the residents went off to sleep, some alone, some in groups. Almost everyone managed to get some rest, though it seemed that only an hour has passed since the night began.

In the morning however an anguished cry could be heard, followed by a gunshot. Everyone rushed to the scene where they discovered Sierra's mutilated body, lacerated with many precise cuts by an extremely sharp blade. The cry came from Victor who first discovered her love lying on the ground and who then promptly turned his revolver (that noone knew he possessed) upon himself.

Shocked by the events Topher still performed the necessary brainscans to determine whether any of the recently deceased have been tempered with but found nothing suspicious. However he quickly noticed that the settings on the Chair were altered. It seemed like someone was wiped during the night, but curiously noone showed any of the usual after-effects.

Dejectedly they all decided that the threat was still present and more extreme measures had to be taken.


freezeblade is dead. He was Dr. Claire Saunders, Town, Doctor.
jimbobmacdoodle is dead. He was Sierra, Town, Watcher, Lovers with Victor.
mpolo is dead. He was Victor, Town, 1-shot Vigilante, Lovers with Sierra.


It is now Day 2. Deadline is set at next Monday 8pm UTC.

7 players alive, 4 votes required to hammer.
Last edited by Sabrar on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby adnapemit » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:48 am UTC

Well that went worse than expected...three town dead. :cry:
So anyone find out anything useful during the night? Like who is scum?

jimbobmacdoodle was killed for looking most town or maybe because he voted for Carlington?

Do we think that the Lovers were the insurance against mass claim?
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Carlington » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:47 am UTC

Okay, balls. That night could not really have been worse for us. I'm naturally now squinting in the direction of Diemo and adnapemit in particular, but it's hard to really say anything concrete because the doc claim came so close to deadline. I don't expect an answer to this question, but I'll ask it anyway, because there are a couple of phrases that may need particular attention if the answer is in the affirmative:
Does the flavour carry any significance regarding game actions or game mechanics? Or is it just flavour?
I fully expect a "No comment", but it's worth a shot.

I'm obviously not even going to bother pointing out the number of kills, because it would be too easy for me to have withheld the kill just to point it out, so that doesn't make me not an SK in anyone's eyes.

Given the number of people remaining and the assumption that there's 2 scum and an indie, we need to play very carefully today. On balance, I think bessie is either town or really convincing scum, and I'm inclined to say town. Just because I haven't like everything she's said doesn't make her less towny. Dimochka and crucialityfactor I'd really like to see more from. I realise the hypocrisy in this, and I really do, but the fact remains. If I had to call it, just on process of elimination, I'd put bessie and obviously myself as town, which means there's presumably two other townies to identify.

I feel a little sketchy on adnapemit, due to lots of unwillingness to post reasoning, and a general sense of trying to avoid picking sides. For example, yesterday they outright said that they didn't want to post reasoning because they were worried it would seem vague, which is anti-town play imo. Obviously the vote on freezeblade doesn't exactly help. I feel similarly about emlightened. Their vote on crucialityfactor is safe. It doesn't risk being on the lynching wagon of a townie, nor does it risk being on the opposing wagon, and it has the added bonus of the potential for post-hoc justification in the form of policy lynching lurkers being accepted play.

That leaves Diemo, who is sitting somewhere around the middle, I guess. There's a reasonable amount of content which died out towards day's end, and it's all just fairly unobjectionable. Diemo is probably town for that reason, but adnapemit's pointing out that we should look at the unremarkable players also sits at the back of my mind.
Assuming an indie is around, I'd rather lynch mafia today, as lynching the indie leaves us at 5 alive with 2 mafia and at LYLO, where lynching mafia leaves us at, in the worst case, 4 alive with 1 mafioso and 1 SK (although I still think SK is unlikely), and more likely imo is 5 alive, 3/1/1.


Oh shit, right before hitting submit I kicked over my water bottle, and in fetching a towel realised I forgot something I wanted to ask. There seem to have been a couple of players who were fairly confident in saying that there were no vanilla roles. I feel that doing so so early in the game is poor play, since it's basically claiming a power role. So, would anyone like to claim VT (emphasis on the V) and put that to bed?
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Sabrar » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:51 am UTC

Carlington wrote:Does the flavour carry any significance regarding game actions or game mechanics? Or is it just flavour?

Rules wrote:I aim to write flavor that is fairly indicative about the actions during the night.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Carlington » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:16 am UTC

Well, I need to sleep now and tomorrow is going to probably be the longest day at work yet, but I might post on my lunch break. But in view of that mod response, the phrases I'm looking at are "some alone, some in groups" and the whole passage about the Chair settings being altered.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby bessie » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:13 pm UTC

Quick post before work. My work week is busy but I will try to keep up.

First of all, I have no night results to share.

adnapemit wrote:Do we think that the Lovers were the insurance against mass claim?

My first thought that the Lovers were an indication there wasn’t a serial killer in the game because that would mean four potential kills on N1 (mafia, SK, vig). Maybe the possible anti-town independent is a lyncher (or someone else with a target).

Sabrar wrote:
Carlington wrote:Does the flavour carry any significance regarding game actions or game mechanics? Or is it just flavour?

Rules wrote:I aim to write flavor that is fairly indicative about the actions during the night.

Hmm, I read the main Wikipedia page again.

Carlington wrote:But in view of that mod response, the phrases I'm looking at are "some alone, some in groups" and the whole passage about the Chair settings being altered.

I’m wondering about the chair part too. Is the chair used to kill people? If the chair is being used by the mafia to kill, then what does everyone think of this?

Sabrar wrote:Everyone rushed to the scene where they discovered Sierra's mutilated body, lacerated with many precise cuts by an extremely sharp blade.

Wikipedia tells me the doctor was cut up by Alpha, so maybe we do have a serial killer in the game (or Alpha is mafia). Does anyone know if this is Alpha’s usual method of killing?

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby crucialityfactor » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:43 pm UTC

That's about as bad a day/night 1 can go. Losing a doctor, watcher, and vig is disheartening. I promised more content, so here it is. Forgive me if it's a bit hard to follow, I'm going through the thread one post at a time and adding an entry to someone's spoiler when I come across a post of note.

Dimochka

Spoiler:
-Thinks that mafia have a godfather. And that therefore we should take cop results with a grain of salt. Which to me reads that he thinks that a "townie" result should still be questioned. That seems a bit strange to me. A cop probably isn't going to claim with a town result, unless it's a very late game lylo situation. And in that case I don't think you go against a town result. Is this just trying to set the stage for downplaying a cop claim later on?

-I like his post for the most part. I think his opinion about being worried about how bessie is attacking so much is inline with what I've been feeling through out the thread. I don't agree on Carlington, mplo, and andapemit though. Everyone else is in line with what I am seeing right now.

Thoughts: Not a ton of content, and I am torn about what I've seen from both posts. Neutral for now.


Diemo

Spoiler:
-Believes there to be no cult, which seems to be supported from the rules. But, kind of contradicted from the night 1 flavor. Doesn't like jimbob's suggestion that a self-defense role claim would be believable. So, I think he's trying to show that he's defending town powers. Some role speculation going on that looks pretty accurate, and may line up with the flavor text. I don't think we know for sure if there is or isn't a sk along with mafia kill.

-Seems to have had the same feelings as I currently do on bessie's list. That it is really just a means towards putting a vote down. But, then goes on to mark the easy target that is freezeblade.

-Just gets frustrated with freezeblade, and votes for him. Is it good reasoning? Not really, but can't blame Diemo because there's really not too much better to go on for voting at this point. I think in the hindsight of my read through, there are a few other people who probably should have been lynched D1 instead.

Thoughts: I'm not sure how to feel here. Getting a slight bad feeling though: Neutral/scum


emlightened

Spoiler:
-Expects the mafia to have powers. Nothing I see from the night 1 flavor seems to back this up at the moment. So either, she is just purely guessing at this, or is trying to distance herself from being mafia by making claims that she knows are not true.

-This hinting at her role is very interesting. Not sure if she's trying to draw out information on other people's powers or just generally interested. I feel like there's some sort of ulterior motive to this post though. I'm not sure what I think of this post yet. There is definitely something to it though.

-Believes in bessie as a townie because of how she is going after people. Which I can agree with. But, I think it's oversimplifying things a bit.

-Her town->scum list. Promises analysis later on for it. Seems pretty much a sorting of mostly the actives on top. I wonder why Dimochka is in the middle? Maybe the promised content bumped him to being neutral in light of there just being no content from him to this point?

-2nd town->scum list. This looks like good reasoning to me. For the reason's that freezeblade got lynched, I think I was probably way more guilty. But the difference is that I just didn't read the thread at all and didn't make short little nothing comments to make people annoyed. The rest of this list looks mostly ok. I do like the little blurbs about some of the players, wish it was for everyone.

-Gives more of her reasoning. I think this post has shifted my opinion of her more towards townie. I was kind of unsure up until now.

Thougths: Got more of a bad feeling early on. Wasn't sure why everyone trusted her. But she ended the day strong. neutral/town


Carlington

Spoiler:
Very neutral first post. Going along with conventional thoughts on the setup. But is fearful that a mislynch on day 1 puts town in a bad position on day 2. Giving off the impression of being non-combative when questioning Diemo. Seems to be taking a light-hearted approach.

-Calls out bessie after her 2nd analysis post that he doesn't see either as being all the helpful and finds her disingenuous. I have to agree. But, still overall finds bessie more townie than not. But is fairly non-committal still to things. Not really damning or praising anyone too much.

-Now he clearly wants bessie to back off. Which can seem scummy, because it's not an argument that he's going to win against her, so he needs to try to just make it go away. I'm more on his side though because I don't agree with bessie's conclusions on him, and I see her as really reaching too far to make Carlington look bad.

Thoughts: Really dropped off which is a shame, because I thought he was pretty townie in his posting. Would be good to have him back and contributing. Neutral.


bessie

Spoiler:
-Says with certainty that she believes that there are no vanilla roles. So, that leads me to believe that she is not vanilla. It does appear that way from the night results that there is not some superpower townie and then a bunch of vanillas. So it'll be a team effort.

-Says she's not really good at getting things started. And that when she does vote it is a serious vote.

-When she comes back, ends up needing to get things started. I think now that I'm reading this more in depth, it does just look like someone looking for a reason to vote. Maybe mafia trying to take control of the conversation and taking advantage of a very quiet game? I do agree with some of her conclusions, but at the same time I don't really understand her reasoning behind the Carlington vote. I think that was just very hasty.

-Her next post is very bizarre. Admits to voting for Carlington even though her reasoning might be wrong. But, this time the analysis is overly positive about everyone. Like she's looking for a reason for everyone to be town. I think she's just clearly frustrated with everyone in the game at this point. But, it's making her content really unreliable. Like it almost doesn't really matter to her who is or isn't scum. Either because she knows (is mafia) or doesn't care (is independent).

-Starting to bulldog in her next post. Really feeling a lot of frustration. Also, really digging in to Carlington. But at this point, does not move her vote back on to him. So, I'm not sure if she is really meaning what she is saying to him. I just feel really confused at this point about what bessie is actually thinking. Like, everything in this post makes me thing she is 100% sure that Carlington should be lynched. But, then she doesn't go there.

-Lots more frustration. Then, just decides to vote for mpolo for his inactivity and not trying to take an active role in what was happening in the game. Too much emotion clouding things. I'm really not sure why this isn't a Carlington vote instead. Are you trying to keep people from taking the easy way out and bandwagoning? Because you spent pretty much the whole D1 building the case against him. But, then you did nothing about it.

-I have no problems with her reasoning behind wanting a nolynch. And honestly it probably would have been the better play than to just slightly pile on freezeblade like that with poor reasoning. I think this post is helping me understand the no Carlington vote. And bessie's D1 as a whole. All she wants is for people to play the game.

-Her Town->scum list. I think the bottom 4 is mostly due to not getting good content out of 3 of the 4 players. If everyone was contributing well, then I think Carlington would have been at the bottom. Jimbob would have probably shifted a few spots down as well. It will be interesting to see this list updated as we move into everyone contributing. And since her bottom 2 are out of the game.

Thoughts: Definitely the focus of day 1. I feel like as I read more of her posts I understood her better. Don't like how she was going about things, but I get how frustrating it can be. Townie.


adnapemit

Spoiler:
-Same thought as bessie. No vanilla roles. Not really saying much different with the same setup. I did find this interesting though:

however I think the independents would have a win condition that is equally bad or beneficial to town and mafia


That's just a strange way of looking at things. In the smalltown game, it was our (werewolves) strategy to try to get the town to focus on the aliens, while downplaying the immediate threat that we posed. This feels like a similar strategy at the moment. I feel like mafia should be and are generally more concerned with 3rd party/sk win conditions.

-Next post, again bringing up an indie/sk and if such a role existing is worse for town or mafia. This leaves me with similar feelings from before. (note: carlington answers that it's neutral overall, but is more likely to hit town early. mpolo said that it's more anti-mafia but will swing back and forth as it is advantageous.

-Their analysis post. Seems more like a listing of stats rather than analysis though. It's an attempt of putting content out there, while really not saying anything at all.

-Very on board and defensive of bessie's analysis techniques. Which I get. Something about this is rubbing me wrong though. Too nonchalant? Too accepting? Or, it just seems like she's deflating what bessie is trying to accomplish?

-Now for adnapemit's town->scum list. I don't find these helpful without real reasoning listed as well. I don't really get what freezeblade did to this point to be at the bottom. Like, did you really think he was the scummiest player? Or was he just he most frustrating and the easiest target? Same with mpolo, I don't get what separates him as so scummy, me as moderately scummy, and emlightened as almost certainly townie?

-2nd town->scum list. Bottom three looks like the 2 annoyers and then the two inactives. Pretty easy. But really, did people reallly think that freezeblade was scum? Just seems like standard play from him. Annoying and unhelpful yes, but not scummy. Just seems more like going after the low-hanging fruit than anything else. Which is what people accused freezeblade of doing. But, again no real reasoning or analysis. So it's hard to tell what is actually behind the ordering.

-Ok, finally some reasoning. But was dragged out by jimbob. Addresses the question I ended up having about her first list about me mpolo and emlightened. Understanding the thought process a bit more. But still feeling like real opinions and analysis are missing.

Thoughts: Don't know why everyone trusts her. I think the focus on the lurkers and people being annoyed by mpolo and freezeblade took a lot of potential heat off. Seeing a lot of words and posts, but not what I would consider good hard content, or opinions. Scum.


Night Results/Flavor

The manner in which jimbob was killed is making me think SK kill. The chair flavor text is making me think that someone can remove/alter powers. Maybe the target doesn't know? Could that be a win condition? To "eliminate" all of the dolls by neutralizing our powers?

Town

crucialityfactor
Bessie
emlightened
Carlington
Dimochka
Diemo
adnapemit

Scum

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby emlightened » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:49 pm UTC

Assuming that the kill was by an SK, that means that either the kills coincided, or the mafia kill was blocked. Although I doubt it, due to that potentially putting us at game over tomorrow, if we mislynch and all of the kills go through.

So yeah, that's pretty much worse case scenario. From the chair wipe the flavour had, I assume that somebody's role is some sort of jailer. The 'some in groups' suggests that we have Masons to me, which could balance out the factor of a SK kill.

Considering that three mafia puts us at LYLO, and that it could have been game over if mpolo's one-shot hit a townie last night, I think we can say that there's definitely two mafia. If the kill was done by a SK (unlikely, but indicated by flavour), then we have 4/2/1 (or 3/2/1/1), and, if all scum kills hit town tonight, we'll be at MYLO.



Right, considering that the freezeblade bus ended as badly as it did for town, I'm guessing that somebody on it was scum.

What freeze did was well within his meta, as jimbob and Bessie pointed out. Diemo, adnapemit and mpolo were the three players who voted for him.

Diemo was the first to put anything on him, starting with an IGMEOY based on lacking content. jimbob then commented that it was within his meta, as did bessie (the latter not in response, just in a read). Bessie then prods freeze, because of his lack of content, and says that D1 talk can be useful for analysing the lynch. freeze votes bessie after her No Lynch vote. This, to me, looks more like an excuse to vote somebody than a well-reasoned vote, so I can understand the votes on him a bit more. That, or freeze only skimmed the post.

Diemo points out that the NL vote was clearly a joke, and is the first to vote. He gives the reasons of not providing content, active lurking even when asked and voting for a stupid reason. These points all seem valid (excusing meta) to me, and may have been a rod at freeze.

adnapemit is the next player to vote for freeze. She says that she finds him slightly scummier than mpolo (giving no reason), but also clearly ignores his meta (if she'd have taken it into account, we'd have lynched mpolo). Diemo's last post of the day comes next. He prods dimochka, and asks bessie why a NL is better than a lurker lynch.
mpolo, a bit later, votes for freeze, also ignoring his meta. I'd say that this makes him look quite scummy, except there's no point in saying that about a dead townie.

adnapemit then explains her freezeblade vote a bit more. She points out that we'd get nowhere if we ignore his scumminess and take his meta into account. She then says that "dismissing attempts to try to provide anything is worse than going around and acting overly scummy." This to me, reads as that it's better to lynch a lurker than to lynch somebody really scummy. I don't think I have to explain that.

I'd say that adnapemit is leaning scum after that. Diemo's probably neutral, but he'd be a bit scummier if he'd posted again after the other two votes and didn't come up with a good reason to stay there.

Also @Carlington: It looks a bit like you're specifically trying to avoid being labeled as a SK with that quote. I'm leaning more towards that possibility now, but I'll wait to see if anybody can confirm Alpha's typical kill style.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Diemo » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:46 pm UTC

Hey guys, sorry I have not been about more. So there is a good bit to say here.

Firstly, bessie has gone down a good bit due to not taking her vote off freeze blade once he had claimed doctor. I guess she was running late though, so I will leave her as neutral (for reference, I had her as pretty strongly town before night fell).

I'm a bit wary of the some in groups part. That could mean that there is mason, but it could also mean that there were lovers, and oh wait, there were lovers, so, meh, null tell overall.

adnap looks to be fishing in her first post. I mean, if anyone had any useful results then they would claim them, right? (I guess not so much if you were a role blocker or whatever, but any cop should claim at this point. Um, haven't done maths on that, but it is my gut feeling. Might get back to it later).

Carlington is slightly suspicious because jumbo voted for him. Nowhere near enough for me to put a vote down, of course, but IGMEOY.

Are we told LYLO/MYLO

I'm gonna assume mpolo withheld :). It seems unlikely that he killed jumbo!

Carlington wrote:I'm naturally now squinting in the direction of Diemo and adnapemit in particular


Carlington, why does bessie get a free pass?

Also on Carlington (I am going through posts in order, can you tell :P) there is the fact that he is simultaneously saying that he thinks that adnap is scummy, and also using adnap to throw a finger of suspicion on me? Seems a bit contradictory, though I could just be over reacting, that is my meta right? :P

Oh does anyone want to claim VT? Please?

Chair settings, I forgot that. Right, sounds a bit like a role block to me. I mean, I would guess cult, but our mod has guaranteed no cults :(. So, what else could it be?

bessie wrote:My first thought that the Lovers were an indication there wasn’t a serial killer in the game because that would mean four potential kills on N1 (mafia, SK, big).


I once ran a (pretty disappointing) 7 player game which had a potential 5 kills (ended up just being two :( ) on N1. So, trying to game the system is not at all guaranteed to work.

Do we think that the Lovers were the insurance against mass claim?

Did I miss one of your posts? [checked, I did see it, I just can't read]. I doubt it, lovers are relatively standard as a role around here, or were when I was playing regularly.

adnap wrote:imbobmacdoodle was killed for looking most town or maybe because he voted for Carlington?
Who are you expecting to answer this? This is pretty much the definition of active lurking, IMO.

Um, working off my shitty memory, Alpha does use knives (am I getting this confused with Caprica? I could be). But one kill suggests that Alpha is the mafia, if it is Alpha's method of killing. Wiki tells me that Alpha was originally someone who used a knife, I'm going to mark it as plausible.

cf is right, dim is being pretty quiet.

cf wrote:Doesn't like jimbob's suggestion that a self-defense role claim would be believable
What? I didn't like his suggestion that that the role abilities were randomly assigned.

oh gotta go. More tomorrow
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Sabrar » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:54 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:Are we told LYLO/MYLO

No comment.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby crucialityfactor » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:56 pm UTC

It is possible that i misread. Went through a lot of posts today. I don't know if it was affecting my overall read on you though.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby dimochka » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:16 pm UTC

Sorry, Monday/Tuesday I have class 8am-10pm, and this week are midterms. After class tonight I promise to go through things and actually post like a human being.

I have not read anything since start of D2, but since we had 3 deaths already, I'm going to do a partial reveal. I'm a backup for someone and therefore vanilla currently.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Carlington » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:57 pm UTC

I have fifteen minutes to sit down so I'm going to respond to Diemo. I'll be back in a little bit when I have my lunch hour and will be able to respond to people more then.

Diemo wrote:Firstly, bessie has gone down a good bit due to not taking her vote off freeze blade once he had claimed doctor. I guess she was running late though, so I will leave her as neutral (for reference, I had her as pretty strongly town before night fell).

...

Carlington wrote:I'm naturally now squinting in the direction of Diemo and adnapemit in particular


Carlington, why does bessie get a free pass?

In fact, bessie didn't change her vote after freezeblade's claim because she had already changed her vote. She was voting for mpolo. Mpolo, who was the other person on the fb wagon, gets a free pass for being dead and having flipped town. Feel free to read whatever you want into that. :P

Also on Carlington (I am going through posts in order, can you tell :P) there is the fact that he is simultaneously saying that he thinks that adnap is scummy, and also using adnap to throw a finger of suspicion on me? Seems a bit contradictory, though I could just be over reacting, that is my meta right? :P

No, I think you're neutral, not scummy. However, regardless of my thoughts about the towniness/scumminess of adnapemit, what she says is true. Good scum play should ideally result in scum being as close to the middle of people's read lists as possible. Look too scummy and you'll get lynched. Look too towny and people will start to wonder how you keep dodging the kill. So while I don't think you're scum per se, I do want to keep the possibility in mind.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Carlington » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:20 am UTC

There's not too much more to respond to, so I don't have much to say in this post. Adnapemit will probably be who I vote for, if I were to vote now but I want to give her a chance to say more first; the day is yet young. I'll post in five hours or so, hopefully there's more to say by then, if not then I'll sit and properly go over D1.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby bessie » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:19 am UTC

Still a bit rambling because I’m really busy this week, but I want to keep up. My post quality should improve in a few days.
Carlington wrote:
Diemo wrote:Firstly, bessie has gone down a good bit due to not taking her vote off freeze blade once he had claimed doctor. I guess she was running late though, so I will leave her as neutral (for reference, I had her as pretty strongly town before night fell).

...

Carlington wrote:I'm naturally now squinting in the direction of Diemo and adnapemit in particular


Carlington, why does bessie get a free pass?

In fact, bessie didn't change her vote after freezeblade's claim because she had already changed her vote. She was voting for mpolo. Mpolo, who was the other person on the fb wagon, gets a free pass for being dead and having flipped town. Feel free to read whatever you want into that. :P

You’re both wrong. I voted Carlington, No Lynch, mpolo. I never voted for freezeblade, but I did keep needling him for lurking. So Diemo, why didn’t you take your vote off of freezeblade after he claimed doctor? You could have saved him a lot easier than me because you were already voting for him.

Carlington wrote:I'm naturally now squinting in the direction of Diemo and adnapemit in particular, but it's hard to really say anything concrete because the doc claim came so close to deadline.

I actually agree with this. There just wasn’t enough time. I would have tried to save him but he posted three hours before deadline.

Carlington wrote:I'm obviously not even going to bother pointing out the number of kills, because it would be too easy for me to have withheld the kill just to point it out, so that doesn't make me not an SK in anyone's eyes.

Just bookmarking this for later.

Diemo wrote:I'm a bit wary of the some in groups part. That could mean that there is mason, but it could also mean that there were lovers, and oh wait, there were lovers, so, meh, null tell overall.

I’m a bit puzzled why Carlington even mentioned this and why you and emlightened have commented on it. List of player groups more likely than masons: mafia, lovers, and killer+victim (active lurking or diversion?).

Carlington wrote:There seem to have been a couple of players who were fairly confident in saying that there were no vanilla roles. I feel that doing so so early in the game is poor play, since it's basically claiming a power role. So, would anyone like to claim VT (emphasis on the V) and put that to bed?

Diemo wrote:Oh does anyone want to claim VT? Please?

What makes either of you believe we have vanilla town? And if we do, why would you want that person to claim it? Are you trying to prioritize your night kill lists?

crucialityfactor wrote:Says with certainty that she believes that there are no vanilla roles. So, that leads me to believe that she is not vanilla. It does appear that way from the night results that there is not some superpower townie and then a bunch of vanillas. So it'll be a team effort.

Not with certainly, but I’m a bit more certain now. For reference, my first post in this game:
bessie wrote:Initial setup thoughts. I suspect that there are no vanilla roles. The mod didn’t promise everyone a power role, but it seems to be the normal setup lately in flavor heavy games, and in games this size.

I am also flavorblind, and got all my flavor knowledge from the main Wikipedia page. The initial post says that “role abilities however follow the show pretty closely” but I won’t have the knowledge to figure out powers that would fit with characters, so my setup speculation will general, not flavor specific. I think that three mafia might be too many for this game, unless they are all mafia goons with no additional abilities. I already speculated that there are no vanilla roles so I will guess two power mafia roles (godfather, roleblocker, investigative role?). And one third party, either an anti-town independent or someone that wins with mafia. I’ve been considering whether or not a serial killer would be too much kill power for a ten player game, and I think it may work if there is a doctor or a bulletproof townie. For town roles, my guess is that they are all regular power town roles (doctor, cop, tracker, watcher, bulletproof townie, one shot vigilante, town power backup, or maybe a miller?) and that no one townie is overly powerful.

And hey, I’m 3 for 3 (doctor, watcher, one shot vigilante)! :)

dimochka wrote:I have not read anything since start of D2, but since we had 3 deaths already, I'm going to do a partial reveal. I'm a backup for someone and therefore vanilla currently.

Why did you decide to reveal this? (And hey, I'm 4 for 4 now!) :D

I would like to hear some more input on what everyone thinks the chair does, especially from those familiar with the flavor.

One final comment on the number of kills last night. I'm still debating whether or not a serial killer would be too many kills for this game. Here's an unordered list I made of possible reasons why there was only one kill last night (not ranked by likelihood).
1. Someone withheld their kill.
2. The kill was mafia, and there is no serial killer.
3. The mafia and SK chose the same target.
4. The mafia was blocked/jailed.
5. The victim was doctored/jailed/other protection.
6. The victim is bulletproof.
7. The mafia targeted the traitor, and they were recruited instead of killed.

More later if I have time.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby adnapemit » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:20 am UTC

bessie wrote:
Carlington wrote: But in view of that mod response, the phrases I'm looking at are "some alone, some in groups" and the whole passage about the Chair settings being altered.
I’m wondering about the chair part too. Is the chair used to kill people? If the chair is being used by the mafia to kill, then what does everyone think of this?
Like crucialityfactor, I'm worried the chair might be used to control or corrupt abilities.
Sabrar wrote:Sierra's mutilated body, lacerated with many precise cuts by an extremely sharp blade.
This strongly suggests it's Alpha or possibly a controlled doll that did the killing. Alpha indeed used a knife to kill lots of people with surgical precision in the show. If it was Alpha then I also think that mafia's kill has been blocked and we have a SK.

Diemo wrote:
adnap wrote:
imbobmacdoodle was killed for looking most town or maybe because he voted for Carlington?

Who are you expecting to answer this?
No one. I don't expect anyone to answer. Just phrasing my thoughts in the form of a question. Unless scum wants to answer. It would be very helpful if they did. :wink:

I would have removed my vote from freezeblade after the claim had I not been asleep but then I would have voted for mpolo I'm not sure we would be in any better position than now. Actually it might have been a little but better if freezeblade was then not night killed, we would still have a doctor.

I was hoping for someone to have an investigation result or more specifically I hoped another player might have investigation abilities and found a scum player. I had a one shot alignment cop ability which I used last night. I used it on Diemo and got a result of town. I want to trust this result but then that means freezeblade was lynched by 3 of town.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby crucialityfactor » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:15 pm UTC

adnapemit wrote:I was hoping for someone to have an investigation result or more specifically I hoped another player might have investigation abilities and found a scum player. I had a one shot alignment cop ability which I used last night. I used it on Diemo and got a result of town. I want to trust this result but then that means freezeblade was lynched by 3 of town.


Can you tell us your reasoning for investigating Diemo? Also, since you are claiming your power, would I be out of line to ask you your role name?

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby dimochka » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:34 pm UTC

Well that marks a first for coming home and falling asleep fully clothed. Quick post for now, then a quick hour-long meeting, then a longer analysis.

First of all, I claimed because losing 3 townies in a 10 person game is a huge step back for us, and I'd rather avoid as much confusion as possible at this point. Thinking back, maybe I should have played it differently, but I felt like I wasn't contributing much and this was one way I thought I could help. Just by looking at numbers - if Alpha is in game, then we're between 7/2/1 and 6/2/1/1, which means now we would be at 4/2/1 and 3/2/1/1. This is basically why I claimed. For what it's worth, given the presence of town lovers, I'm leaning towards the original 7/2/1 still, which further makes me suspect carlington, but only on the D1 content.

One quick note that I thought of as I was reading through flavor. It does sound like the cuts come from Alpha so it is likely that we have an SK. I would potentially expect Alpha to be a godfather and have Paul Ballard as a safeclaim (because he took over Paul's personality at a certain point). I could very well be diving too deep into the flavor, but as I said I'd rather this be out in the open.

The only thing that does worry me is that there was essentially only one kill overnight, assuming the flavor is reflective of the night actions. I know bessie noted a few possibilities. One to add to it - sk targeted one of the lovers and mafia targeted the other. Maybe the flavor would be different, but it's a possibility.

Player analysis coming after this meeting.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Diemo » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:37 pm UTC

Alright, sorry Carlington. My suspicions were unfounded.

You know, I could have sworn it was bessie. As cf said, she spent a lot of D1 building the case against him. But I guess that I should move bessie back to the townie side, I had actually considered voting her for not taking her vote off the claimed doctor :P.

dimochka's claim is pinging me a bit. Generally backups get the first ability (though not necessarily, come to think of it) that gets killed.

Chair claim, yeah it could be that someone has the ability to control another person's night action. That would make flavour sense.

ok, where was I? enlightened is pretty meh, nothing standing out to me either way. I guess the post seems long but out of it is her stating what happened, rather than giving reads. She redeems herself at the end though.

[quote=bessie]So Diemo, why didn’t you take your vote off of freezeblade after he claimed doctor?[/quote]

I can only claim 4 hours is not a lot of time. Or three hours, or whatever.

I don't think that the killer + victim would have gone to sleep in a group. But I seriously think that that was referring to the lovers. As for why I am commenting on it, it makes Carlington slightly more scummy.

You are four for four if dim is telling the truth, bessie. A pretty big if there though.

Hmm, I hadn't thought about a traitor. That would make mafia at least 3 now (I find it hard to believe that mafia started with only one, which would put us at LYLO. Um, be careful putting votes down? Though I think it is likely that there is no traitor I'm going to ignore my own advice and vote for the person I find scummiest. Sorry if I lose us the game.

snap's post is pretty suspicious as well. one-shot cop is an easy claim for scum (after all, they know who scum is, unless they happen to hit the SK or an independent), and she seems really sure that Alpha is not in the mafia. I don't think it is out of the question for him to be in the mafia at all. So, FOS adnap.

dimochka is also really sure that Alpha is not the mafia - hmm. I disagree on mafia targeting one and SK the other, because flavour clearly stated that Sierra killed herself.

Town
Me
Bessie
Carlington, emlightened, Cf <-- neutral, pretty interchangeable
adnap
dimochka

Vote: dimochka
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby dimochka » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:52 pm UTC

Quick response to Diemo.

1. I'm sure if you read back, you could figure out my role. AND it's in the flavor text (for one of the days). AND if you know the role, you'd know that I can only be a backup for one person. That's why I'm not a universal backup.
2. Again based on flavor, Alpha would have no reason to work with anyone else. He works with no one. I actually considered the possibility of him being in the mafia and promptly discarded it. Because if he's mafia then he's a lone wolf, which is basically an SK.

WAIT

I was going to have a #3 but I just re-read the flavor. Where exactly does it say that sierra killed herself? She was killed with lacerated cuts, victor saw her and killed himself. Something really doesn't line up here. You seem know more about it than you would. And with the fact that I fully suspect a godfather as I mentioned EARLY in D1, that's enough.

Vote Diemo

Sounds to me like you thought you were in the clear based on the cop to start finding a fall target.

More analysis soon, but I needed to get this out.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Diemo » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:00 pm UTC

Or I forgot a name :P. Not Sierra, Victor. One of them shot themselves is the point.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Diemo » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:06 pm UTC

Ok, I see who dimochka is claiming to be. I'm not sure I buy it, but it is probably enough to

[b[Unvote
Vote: adnap[/b]
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby emlightened » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:19 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
Diemo wrote:I'm a bit wary of the some in groups part. That could mean that there is mason, but it could also mean that there were lovers, and oh wait, there were lovers, so, meh, null tell overall.

I’m a bit puzzled why Carlington even mentioned this and why you and emlightened have commented on it. List of player groups more likely than masons: mafia, lovers, and killer+victim (active lurking or diversion?).

I assumed groups meant at lest three, so we either have LYLO, Masons, or polyamory. Or I'm reading into it too much, and some of it was just friends leaving in groups, or grouping for protection.

@dimochka: I kind-of doubt that there's a Godfather, but only for one reason: flavour-wise, how come only one of the scum is a Godfather, and not both of them?

Anyway, either adnapemit's scum (she posted first, but claimed one-shot-cop after everyone else posted) or Diemo's a Godfather. We know that she'd sane (no bastardy), so the only other possibility is that whoever has the chair messed with her abilities.


On one hand, it looks a bit like dimochka's overreacting. On the other, it looks like Diemo's squirming after being voted, and is trying hard to cover up his slip.


Also, if there is a SK, then its a much better idea to kill them off first, then the mafia. Killing one mafia is basically the same as reducing us to two SKs and that, even with perfect town play (assuming no vigs), leads to a definite town loss, if all of the kills hit (4/2/1 -> 2/1/1 -> 1/0/1). I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't look for mafia - this is worst-case, if we do have a SK and no kills get blocked.

On that vein, my second guess for a SK would be bessie, after Carlington. Her posts got at Carlington being a SK a lot, and were also rather dismissive in places. A lot of people have waved this away as her being frustrared, but I'm not sure. Besides, it's a lot easier to look townie as a SK than as mafia, due to not knowing as much, and not having anyone to protect.

I'll do an analysis-type post tomorrow.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Carlington » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:29 am UTC

I'll be back in a few hours again, but I wanted to at least throw something up here. Diemo and dimochka have given me a bit to think about, as has adnapemit's claim. We could have scumteam of Diemo and adnapemit, or we could have cop adnapemit and godfather Diemo, or both town in which case it'd probably have to some combo of crucialityfactor, dimochka, enlightened, but probably not Bessie imo. Dimka seems to be reaching a little bit, but Diemo's response seems too casual as well. I have to go for now but as it stands:

Town
bessie
emlightened
crucialityfactor, adnapemit
dimochka, Diemo
Scum

Where being on the same line means roughly interchangeable.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby bessie » Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:31 am UTC

Quick question for anyone.

Since discussion of the chair is becoming somewhat important, what is the function of the chair on the TV show? I somehow had the vague idea that the characters sat in the chair to be programmed, but I don’t know why I thought that. Last night I reread the main Wikipedia page and read the two pages of episode summaries and it looks like the characters are programmed remotely. So I would appreciate if someone could briefly explain the function of the chair because I already spent over an hour researching this and still somehow missed it.

I’m working on updating my player analysis, but I’m not sure how far I will get tonight. I have a big project due tomorrow.

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby adnapemit » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:33 am UTC

crucialityfactor wrote:Can you tell us your reasoning for investigating Diemo? Also, since you are claiming your power, would I be out of line to ask you your role name?

I investigated Diemo because everyone ranked him pretty neutral, a good place for mafia to hide. Diemo also voted for freezeblade which I thought would be good to know if it was a vote from mafia.
Yes it would be out of line but I will say it anyway. I am Topher Brink.
Diemo wrote:snap's post is pretty suspicious as well. one-shot cop is an easy claim for scum (after all, they know who scum is, unless they happen to hit the SK or an independent), and she seems really sure that Alpha is not in the mafia. I don't think it is out of the question for him to be in the mafia at all. So, FOS adnap.
I don't remember saying Alpha wasn't mafia. Just that if there was a serial killer then that would most be Alpha.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 1 - Lockdown

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:38 am UTC

Deadline is in ~4.5 days. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day.

Votals:
adnapemit - 1 (Diemo) (please make sure to use the tags correctly, otherwise I could miss your vote)
Diemo - 1 (dimochka)

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby adnapemit » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:42 am UTC

adnapemit wrote:This strongly suggests it's Alpha or possibly a controlled doll that did the killing. Alpha indeed used a knife to kill lots of people with surgical precision in the show. If it was Alpha then I also think that mafia's kill has been blocked and we have a SK.

adnapemit wrote: I don't remember saying Alpha wasn't mafia. Just that if there was a serial killer then that would most be Alpha.

I really should have checked what I said...


I think my reasoning yesterday was Alpha could be mafia but I don't think it fits the flavour and therefore more likely a serial killer.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Diemo » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:02 pm UTC

No counter claims?
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby dimochka » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:08 pm UTC

fyi I asked for a replacement because i'm running a really high fever and can't focus on the game (or anything else). sorry all.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby emlightened » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:36 pm UTC

It's fine. I hope you feel better soon, dimochka.
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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:18 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:No counter claims?


No counter claim here. Not saying I believe it though. Seems odd to me that the flavor text would feature a player's role like that so much. Is there existing precedence for that being normal?

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:24 pm UTC

Search for replacement is in progress. Deadline will probably be extended but that shouldn't discourage the rest of you to continue playing. :wink:

On another note I would like to make it clear that any flavor regarding actual names is included purely for entertainment purposes. It does neither confirm nor deny that the mentioned character is in the game* or what his/her alignment is.

*except if the flavor depicts his/her death-scene of course

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Re: Dollhouse Mafia - Day 2 - Sadness

Postby emlightened » Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:32 am UTC

@dimochka's replacement, possibly ConMan: Would you mind confirming if you actually are Ivy, instead of just heavily hinting? At the moment it looks like you're just implying that you are, but are getting ready in case the real Ivy comes forward. Also, does the person who you backup know that its you that's backing them up?

Considering the potential [4/2/1 with a SK] we're at, is it worth trying to lynch the SK tonight, instead of the mafia?


This'll mainly cover things since the start of D2, but the conclusions and Town-Scum List will take D1 into account as well.

adnapemit: She asks for 'useful information', like who is scum, but waits until everybody else posts until she claims to have used her one-shot cop power. I don't really see why she'd wait if she was town, but I don't really see why she'd wait if she was scum, unless she was waiting for a one-shot cop result from another player. She strongly expects a SK, and then claims one-shot-cop, after saying that she hoped that another player had got a result, hopefully scum. She investigated him because he was ranked as neutral, which is where mafia typically hide. She says that it would be out of line for her to announce her role name, but does it anyway, claiming to be Topher. I don't think I have much reason to believe her claim about being Topher, but it is supported somewhat by dimochka suggesting that he's Ivy, and supports Topher. A lot of what she says isn't particularly helpful, and her claims don't have much reason to be believed. Probably scum.

bessie: Its worth remembering that about two thirds of most of her posts are quotes and newlines, but she's still one of the more active players. She's the first one to bring mention of Alpha to the table. Her next post is a bit wishy-washy, but does give a useful list of potential reasons that there would be only one nightkill, assuming there is a serial killer. I'm sort of getting that she's trying to dissuade from the idea of there being a SK, but only slightly. Not really much content overall, but she repeatedly cites being busy irl, so that's not a knock of anything. Probably town, but that's mainly based off D1.

Carlington: Aside from pointing out that he's not going to point out something to do with SK kills, nothing really stands out in Carlington's first post of the day. He points out that scum should strive to be looking neutral, and that there's not much content to go off (at that point) so far. Later, he says that dimochka and Diemo are acting a bit too casually, and ranks them as scummy for it, also explaining his reasons for moving adnape back up. On the whole, his D2 posts are rather unremarkable, so I'm puttimg him as Neutral, very slightly scummy, possible SK.

crucialityfactor: Analyses each of the players based on D1 content, which removes my main point against him from D1. Nothing particularly remarkable about the analysis, but he does bring up a couple of good points, such as Bessie trying hard to make Carlington to look like scum. Otherwise, he seems to just be active-lurking through the rest of the day (so far). Neutral.

Diemo: Blunders by suggesting that bessie voted for freeze. Suggests that cops should claim at this point - this seems a bit fishy to me - if cops get a town result on D2 and a scum result on D3, it would be better to claim on D3 then get killed on N2. He then asks if anyone wants to claim VT, which is also fishy. He suggests a traitor role and that we could be at LYLO, but dismisses himself and votes dimochka anyway. Mistypes that Sierra killed herself, so it seems like he's not paying much attention, or is just trying to push content out? Not much content, but a lot to point out in what we do have. Fairly scummy.

dimochka: Does a partial reveal before reading D2, and explains his reasoning, such as being as unconfusing as possible. Expects a godfather, which can be gathered in flavour, but also puts extra doubt into adnape's claim. Responds to Diemo, but then votes based on the Sierra/Victor slip. Possibly a bit of a hasty vote, but definitely understandable. He doesn't post again, except to say that he's asked for a replacement due to illness. Leaning town.

Town
~~~
emlightened
bessie
dimochka
crucialityfactor
Carlington
Diemo
adnapemit
~~~
Scum

I think I'll vote after dichka's replacement responds to the adnape claim, if those two are connected.
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