PyPokemon 2 [Game Over: This Was a Triumph]

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Right, nothing else seems to be happening, deadline is fast approaching and I doubt that this is going to cause us to lose:

Vote Esthr

I'd like to hear what Esthr has to say about what she realised, in case I'm wrong and she isn't scum. It could be helpful come tomorrow.

[SirGabriel]

I don't like putting Esthr at L-1 before she has a chance to post, but this might be my last post before deadline.

Vote: Esthr

[Esthr]

I don't like putting Esthr at L-1 before she has a chance to post, but this might be my last post before deadline.

Don't worry. I was waiting for this.

I am a traitor and I have a message for the last mafia member (whoever you are). If you night kill either adnapemit or SirGabriel on N3, then we (mafia) will win on D4.

SirGabriel, if you are the mafia member, you should have given adnapemit a poisoned berry juice, so target her.

Anyone else should target SirGabriel.

Vote: Esthr

[Snark]

That's hammer. No one post.

I'll process when I can. In the mean time think about your night actions and send them in if you like.

[Snark]

I haven't gotten all night actions in, but nothing can stop Carlington, the final Mafia's death. Along with Esthr's (the Mafia traitor - mafia member who didn't know their team and whose team didn't know they existed) lynch, this ends the game in a Town win!

My summary of how this game went:
Day 1:
Mafia Sabrar opens up private chat with their Traitor partner Esthr. Neither know the other to be scum so they both posture and pretend to be town at each other by PM.
Town emlightened trusts Mafia Carlington to be town so much that they choose Carlington as their bodyguard target to protect them from all harm.
Lynch is lead on Sabrar. Mafia Sabrar defends themselves by truthfully claiming to have private chat with another Mafia member (which must therefore be proof that they are both town). This does not work.
Night 1:
Traitor Esthr trusts Mafia Carlington to be town so much that they set up a delayed kill on Carlington N3
Everyone targets jimbob and they get 3 abilities
Carlington takes down a townie, namely emlightened who is currently bodyguarding Carlington
Day 2:
Esthr narrowly escapes the lynch somehow
jimbob is lynch proof and generally trusted by all
Night 2:
Carlington takes down another townie / can't be jimbob since they're protected by Berry juice
Day 3:
Esthr is finally caught in their lie, and leaves a message to their living team member. (who Esthr predicts in Gojoe thread to be jimbob, whom I thought was obvious town to everyone)
Mafia Carlington doesn't really believe Esthr and calls this message wine
Night 3:
Carlington is finally killed by the Night 1 kill set up by Esthr, which was specifically specified in the role PM to be allowed to occur from beyond the grave

So there you have it. Mafia had 3 members and randomly got access to 2 kills (I wrote roles without knowing which alignment or player they would go to), but because the second kill was limited and controlled by the Traitor, the town still overcame.

I was really proud of all the unique roles I wrote for people to choose from. Let me know what you thought about them and the game in general.

I also really liked including a Traitor. Let me know what you think about that role/alignment and whether you hope to see it in future games.

Role PM(s) with all choices (chosen role is in bold):

Spoiler:

9 players - alignment setups:
Town - 6, Mafia - 2, Traitor - 1

Sabrar - Mafia

Axew - As an Axew, you're strong but desire more. On night 3, you'll evolve into an intimidating Fraxure that can scare the truth out of any Pokemon, including yourself. On night 3, you may PM the mod the name of any player. At the beginning of day 3, that player's alignment will be revealed (as either "Town" or "Not town"). You may choose yourself if you desire. On night 6, you'll evolve into Haxorus. On each night starting on night 6, you may PM the mod the name of any player. You will intimidate that player into revealing everything, and you'll be given their Pokemon name, role, and alignment at the start of the next day.
Houndour - You are great at communicating with other Pokemon with your barks. At the beginning of the game, you choose another player. The two of you will have private chat for the duration of the game. During night 3, you may choose another player to open up a second separate private chat with.
Rapidash - Fast and furious, you love to run, and you love to take others running with you. During each night, you may PM the mod of another player to run far away with. During that night, that player will not be able to use any actions, nor will actions used on them succeed. You cannot use this action two nights in a row.

dimochka - Town

Mewtwo - Mind control and telepathy are your domain. You may PM the mod a message once per day to be delivered anonymously to any one player of your choice at the beginning of the next morning. Additionally, during any one night during the game, you can PM the mod of a player and have them be forced to vote for themselves for the duration of the following day (this will be publicly announced and automatic). This mind control vote can only be used once during the game.
Charizard - Fire is scary, but it takes a while to heat up. During each night starting with night 3, you may PM the mod the name of another player to attack and kill with fire. Starting with night 5, the fire will heat up even more, and these kills will be unblockable.
Zapdos - You are able to produce massive thunderstorms and for some reason this impresses other Pokemon. During one night during the game, you may PM the mod and turn on a thunderstorm the following day. At the beginning of the day, the thunderstorm will be announced, and you will be revealed to be Zapdos and that making a thunderstorm is your only power. Your alignment will not be revealed.

Carlington - Mafia

Raichu - You can use nonlethal shocks to interrogate other Pokemon. But electroshock does do things to Pokemon's minds and makes your results not entirely reliable. During each night, you may PM the mod the name of a player. You will be given with 50% probability apiece either 1. A correct Pokemon name and incorrect alignment, or 2. An incorrect Pokemon name (selected at random from all 721 Pokemon) and correct alignment. In either case, the only alignment distinctions you'll be given are "Town" or "Not town".
Snorlax - You are large and hard to handle. If Pokemon attempt to lynch you, they will find they are unable because the gallows doesn't accommodate your size. They'll then build a bigger gallows. Result of all this: You have 1-shot lynch immunity. However, your large size makes you a sitting duck for other methods of attack. You cannot be protected from other kills in any way (example: this prevents anyone NK'ing you from being roleblocked or you from being doctored).
Lotad - As a helpful Pokemon willing to ferry others to their destination, you aren't suspected when you are seen hanging about. During each night, you may PM the mod the name of another player and whether to track or watch. The following morning, you'll be given the name of one other player that player visited or who visited that player (depending on whether you tracked or watched respectively). However you are not entirely reliable or accurate. If there is no player that they visited or were visited by (depending on whether you tracked or watched respectively), you'll be given the name of a player at random selected from all living players (not including you or your target).

mpolo - Town

Charizard - Fire is scary, though most Pokemon are more resilient than they look. During each night, you may PM the mod the name of another player to torch. They and anyone that visits them that night (excluding yourself) will be torched. When a player has been torched twice during the game, they die.
Blastoise - Your powerful water attack is great for defending against other Pokemon. During each night, you may PM the mod to enable your water gun defense. If enabled, any actions used on you that night will be reflected upon the original source of that action. You cannot enable your water gun defense two nights in a row.
Zygarde - During any one night during the game, you may use Land's Wrath. If used it will affect all players and all players will be roleblocked that night.

SirGabriel - Town

Smeargle - With your paintbrush tail, you can paint a pretty picture of another Pokemon. During each night, you may PM the mod of another player to paint. Each time you paint a player, you learn more info about them. When you paint a person, if it's the first time you've painted them, you learn their Pokemon name. If it's the second time you painted that person, you learn their role powers. If it's the third time, you learn their alignment. The only possible alignment distinctions you'll be given are "Town" or "Not town".
Shuckle - You brew Berry Juice in your shell. Every night you may PM the mod the name of a player you want to send a Berry Juice and whether you want to poison it. Any player who drinks a nonpoisoned juice will be refreshed, reinvigorated and immune to night kills during the night in which they drink it (if they drink during day, they'll be immune to night kills during the following night). Any player who drinks a poisoned juice will die at the end of the day or night in which they drink it. You may not send any player more than one Berry Juice during the course of the game.
Shedinja - It is believed that Shedinja will steal the spirit of anyone peering into its hollow body from its back. This is true. During each night, you may PM the mod of another player to kill. Your kill will not be successful unless that player has targeted you with an action previously during the game.

Esthr - Traitor

Delphox - Your psychic powers manifest not with powers of prediction, but with the power to actually attack in the future. Each night, you may PM the mod the name of a player and the number of any night (current or future, not past). You will travel through time to that night, and kill the player on that night. Because you use time travel, the kill will work even if you are dead on the specified night. You may not use this action two nights in a row (though you could specify N1 to kill on N3, and specify N3 to kill N4 and kill two nights in a row - you just can't specify when you're going to kill two nights in a row).
Gardevoir - You can use your psychic power to warp both time and space to your will. Each night, you may PM the mod the name of a player and the number of any night (current or future, not past). You will travel through time to that night, and roleblock that player on that night. Because you use time travel, the roleblock will work even if you are dead on the specified night.
Ho-Oh - It has been rumored that Ho-Oh's can resurrect the dead. You know the truth, that the power is only preventative. You may visit one player per night. For the following two nights, that player is immune to being killed at night. Example: You visit a player night 1. That player cannot be killed during night 2 or night 3. This does not affect day deaths including lynches.

adnapemit - Town

Diancie - Your diamond generation ability is strong and can protect from powerful threats. During each night, you may PM the mod the name of a player. That player will be immune to the lynch during the following day - the player will be announced to be immune to votes and the lynch. You may not choose the same player twice during the game.
Mew - Your biological makeup is unique among all Pokemon. At any point, you may PM the mod a new role PM (including Pokemon name, alignment, and abilities) for yourself to disguise yourself as. Any investigative role targeting you will receive results based upon this fake role PM. Additionally upon death, nothing about your role will be revealed.
Aurorus - You can use your ice powers to freeze other Pokemon. During each night, you may PM the mod the name of another player to freeze during the following day. However you get cold yourself during the process. During the following day, neither you nor that player will have a vote. This will be announced at the beginning of the day.

emlightened - Town

Eevee - You are a blank state, alive with many possibilities and potential futures. Once everyone else selects their roles, you will get to repick from among 4 of the roles that were not selected. The 4 you get to choose from will be selected at random.
Gardevoir - You devote your life to your Trainer. At any point in the game, you may PM the mod the name of a player who you wish to have as your trainer, and you may send a new PM to update to a different trainer at any time. If your Trainer would die for any reason at any time, you die instead and they live.
Mew - You are capable of making yourself invisible at will. Each night, you may choose to become invisible during the night. During any night you are invisible, you will be immune to all night actions. This is limited however because with enough people looking, someone is sure to find you even if you are invisible. If three or more players target you in one night, you lose all immunity that night.

jimbobmacdoodle - Town

Metapod - You have the ultimate defense and cannot be killed. You are kill-immune until day 3 - this includes kills of any type including lynches. Starting day 3, you will evolve into a defenseless Butterfree. At this point, any vote for you, or any action targeting you will instantly result in your death.
Mew - You are capable of learning almost any Pokemon move. Whatever actions players use on you, you are capable of replicating. At the end of each day or night in which an action is used on you that is able to be copied, you will be informed. Once per turn cycle, you can use one of your accumulated actions.
Ditto - You are capable of imitating almost any Pokemon. At the beginning of each day starting with day 2, your role becomes a copy of the role (not the alignment) of a Pokemon who died since the last day started. You have no power day 1 and night 1 and will become power-less again if no one died recently for you to copy.

Action Log:

Spoiler:

(Day 1)
emlightened on Esthr, then Carlington during D1
Sabrar lynched D1

(Night 1)
mpolo - Water Gun Defense
SirGab - Send jimbob nonpoisoned Berry Juice
Carlington Kill: emlightened
Carlington Watch: jimbobmacdoodle
adnapemit - use ability on jimbobmacdoodle.
Esthr - Target: Carlington on Night 3
(Night 1 Results)
Sabrar dead - no more private chat to worry about
emlightened dead
Carlington Watch jimbob results in SirGab/adnapemit with 50/50 chance - adnapemit chosen by random.org [send PM]
dimochka does nothing and mpolo's defense has no effect
Esthr will kill Carlington on Night 3
jimbob gets a juice [send PM]
adnapemit makes jimbob immune to the lynch
jimbob gets berry juice ability and watch ability and lynch immunity ability [send PM]

(Day 2)
Reveal Sabrar and emlightened roles
Reveal jimbob as immune to lynch
jimbob drinks jiuce
dimochka lynched D2

(Night 2)
Carlington - Watch mpolo and kill mpolo
Esthr and mpolo - Have no actions tonight
SirGabriel - Send adnapemit nonpoisoned Berry Juice
adnapemit - Withholds action
jimbobmacdoodle - Watch Carlington (still has Berry Juice and lynch immunity granting and watch ability)
(Night 2 Results)
Carlington Watch mpolo results in Esthr/SirGab/adnapemit/jimbob with 25% chance - jimbob chosen by random.org [send PM]
Jimbob protected with juice but no need as he's not targeted with a kill
SirGabriel gets a juice [send PM] - HAD TO FIX THIS AFTER PM'S WERE SENT AS ADNAPEMIT WAS SUPPOSED TO GET THE JUICE
jimbob Watch Carlington results in Esthr/SirGab/adnapemit/mpolo with 25% chance - Esthr chosen by random.org [send PM]

(Day 3)
Reveal dimochka and mpolo roles
Esthr lynched

(Night 3)
Carlington alive can watch/track and kill
SirGabriel alive can drink juice and send juice
adnapemit can prevent lynch D4
jimbobmacdoodle can watch or give juice or prevent a lynch D4
Esthr's night action from N1 kills Carlington making anything else that could happen irrelvant - Carlington can't be saved and all of town can't be killed

[Carlington]

Does this mean that had emlightened been alive, we'd have won? That's frustrating. Well, this was an excellent game imo, well done Snark and good game everyone. Time to read some spoilers.

[Snark]

Does this mean that had emlightened been alive, we'd have won? That's frustrating. Well, this was an excellent game imo, well done Snark and good game everyone. Time to read some spoilers.

If you had killed someone else N1 and emlightened had never changed their Bodyguard target (unlikely) and everything else was the same, then N3 would have resulted in emlightened dead in your place. And then you'd have had to take out of the other two town. It's a lot of if's and chains of events would have altered a lot of what ended up happening, but it would have made it better for you.

[Sabrar]

Good game and congrats to Town!

Although this version of a Traitor is the most bastard-y there is, it was almost worth it just for the fun I had when I learnt about the truth. I specifically asked Carlington not to attack Esthr too much as it would have been better for us to have her alive and he would have backed off D2 but by then it was too late.
@Esthr: why did you defend me so hard D1? Did you realize at some point that I was scum?

In my old meta-environment dimochka would have been an instant lynch for that claim, so it was extremely frustrating that I was killed for attacking the scummiest player. Early PGO claim only makes sense if you suspect that Town has multiple Day-abilities, otherwise it's always better to wait.

@Snark: Traitor is fun, but precisely for the same thing that happened in this game some sort of additional information needs to be provided. According to this wiki
a) scum should know that a Traitor exists (as it makes them play somewhat differently if they know that 1 less mislynch is required) and
b) Traitor should know the identity of the Mafia (so as not to hinder them by mistake).
Of course I'm a bit biased here.

[dimochka]

Early PGO claim only makes sense if you suspect that Town has multiple Day-abilities, otherwise it's always better to wait.

I need to look at other games to confirm this, but I honestly believed that PGOs should for the most part claim immediately to make sure they dont get hit by town. In a PyP game, I expected a lot of town powers and figured I'd want to know if there was a PGO. Obviously I lied about my role, but I would've played the exact same way had I actually been a PGO in this instance.

I will consider potentially not claiming PGO off the bat in the future, BUT I would totally immediately vote anyone who didnt claim PGO early on and only did it later because in my eyes that scum trying to save themselves.

[Sabrar]

Obviously I lied about my role, but I would've played the exact same way had I actually been a PGO in this instance.

And I would have gone after you the same way had I been Town.

Strategy of playing a PGO (by yours truly)

Spoiler:

Usually Town uses their abilities on either the most townie-looking players (protection) or the most scummy-looking ones (investigation).
Similarly scum won't lynch someone who in the minds of Town looks scummy as they hope to mislynch them later, also they sometimes want to avoid the most townie-looking players as they are likely to be protected.
Therefore I think a PGO wants to be in the middle zone where everyone considers them neutral. This requires a careful balance of lurking just enough to avoid suspicion but not committing either way. (Obviously a player's own meta can counteract that plan, I could not have pulled this off in Secret Santa after my activity in Smalltown.)
If at the end of D1 when everybody posts Town-to-Scum lists you managed to hit that sweet spot then you're good and don't have to claim. The best use of your ability is to get rid of a scum while dying (point 2 of this post still applies and is the main reason why you shouldn't claim). Should you look scummy in the eyes of Town you can still claim PGO. As the main case against you will (hopefully) be the lurking, there will probably be a better candidate for the lynch, so you're not claiming to avoid the lynch, just the investigative powers. As they are useful even if they don't target you this is in my opinion much less scummier.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Good game. Thanks Snark for running. I liked your post-game summary as well, so will make a note of that when I'm running Wheel of Time. I also liked the variety in Pokemon abilities, so good job there, although I do wonder if my ability was a little bit strong and mpolo's Charizard might have been horrendous in the hands of scum.

Esthr's claim last night confused me at first, but after expressing that confusion in Gojoe I remembered someone (Esthr?) saying D1 that scum might reveal their actual role, and figured she'd chosen Delphox. I also guessed that she'd chosen me and that I was about to die, as she didn't mention me in her final post. I was then madly running through in my head what if anything I could have done tonight to help town tomorrow.

Does anybody else find it funny that the traitor actually helped rather than hindered town?

Right, off to read spoilers!

[adnapemit]

WOW.
Everything makes sense now that I know Esthr was a traitor. I couldn't work out how Carlington and Esthr could both be scum.

Esthr is finally caught in their lie, and leaves a message to their living team member. (who Esthr predicts in Gojoe thread to be jimbob, whom I thought was obvious town to everyone)

Maybe my case for jimbob being scum was too strong? It did ignore ALL the townie things he did.

so it was extremely frustrating that I was killed for attacking the scummiest player.

I voted you because of how you attacked not who. Although once you flipped scum I couldn't really see dimochka as scum.

Good game everyone!
and lots of thanks Snark.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Just read Carlington's master plan in Gojoe, and I must day that it was very well thought out. I'd like to think that I'd have seen through it though on D4, had you not died. You'd have had to justify your N3 choice, and you may not have noticed but I had you as scummier than SirG in my last list - that was in part conditioned on the belief that scum couldn't kill and use an ability. With that incorrect belief, I'd have probably leaned towards you as scum above SirGabriel. But it's all a moot point.

[Carlington]

I feel like people might have already been starting to twig on D3, but the focus on Esthr was keeping attention off me. Had we seen Esthr flip Traitor on the morning of D4, I definitely think it would have changed the arguments people used.
I have to say, I don't normally enjoy playing scum, but in this game I did. The last day was torture, though - I felt sure that the longer that day dragged on, the closer and closer people would come to noticing me and the more surely I'd be sunk. My instinct was to rush and push hard to hammer before people had a chance to figure anything out, but of course that would have looked wildly scummy.
I also think that the convenience of my results and my targeting the person who died each night would have pushed credibility D4. Still, it seemed wiser to try and come up with a long term plan early and stick to it, and I'm happy with how it panned out - I don't think I could have done better and my death was set in stone from N1. Ironically enough, the only thing that could have saved us was not lynching Esthr, and that was the very thing I was pushing towards most of the game.

[mpolo]

Congratulations, town! I'm very happy that this worked out. I thought sure I was going to be scummy enough to survive N2 without my protection, though. Oh well.

[Snark]

Although this version of a Traitor is the most bastard-y there is
...
@Snark: Traitor is fun, but precisely for the same thing that happened in this game some sort of additional information needs to be provided. According to this wiki
a) scum should know that a Traitor exists (as it makes them play somewhat differently if they know that 1 less mislynch is required) and
b) Traitor should know the identity of the Mafia (so as not to hinder them by mistake).

If my goal as a mod is to make the set-up somewhere between a straight 7-2 and 6-3 setup in terms of mafia strength, doesn't the traitor role do exactly that? Adding in your a) or b) swings it closer to 6-3 than to 7-2, but that's not something I thought was balanced, and I didn't think it was bastardry.

In whose mind is this actually bastardry at all? In this thread: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=88487, the only thing I can think it might be is "Misleading mod statements" to the mafia team because they assume they are the only mafia.

I respect your opinion Sabrar. I'm just curious what others think, because the role being bastard in any sense never even crossed my mind as a possibility.

[Esthr]

Congratulations to town, and great game, Snark. I loved the various powers in play, and the PyP format was very interesting.

@Esthr: why did you defend me so hard D1? Did you realize at some point that I was scum?

I had no idea. I defended you because if you were still lynched and flipped town, then I would have looked really good. Honestly, if you hadn't been lynched, you would have been in Carlington's place on N3. What I'm saying is that, yes, it would have been nice to know who my scummates were.

The worst day for me was D2, where everyone rightfully thought I was scum but for all the wrong reasons. At least on D3, I was lynched for lying, which is perfectly valid. Unfortunately, I wasted all of D3 waiting for L-1 so I could get that post out, when I should have been defending myself and building a case against SirGabriel or even Carlington.

[Esthr]

Ninja'd

If my goal as a mod is to make the set-up somewhere between a straight 7-2 and 6-3 setup in terms of mafia strength, doesn't the traitor role do exactly that? Adding in your a) or b) swings it closer to 6-3 than to 7-2, but that's not something I thought was balanced, and I didn't think it was bastardry.

With the potential powers everyone had, I actually agree this was more balanced. If either of us knew about each other, then Sabrar's power would have made me a normal mafia member. With a mislynch and 2 night kills, the game would have been over on D2.

[Sabrar]

In this thread: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=88487,

I had a quick look at the thread and realized that my definition of bastardry is much more strict than normal (in the sense that I like to play with clear-cut rules from the beginning). For me a non-bastard game is along the lines what is described as 'Pure' in this post. Regarding the OP I would consider Category A as low-level bastardry and 'Category B' as high-level (seriously, false win-conditions as low-level?).
So my word choice was probably poor in that regard and I apologize.

I think a Traitor without any additional knowledge about the identity of scum plays much more like an Independent than a team-member. It is very unlikely that they would figure out their partners ahead of Town so they are blind in who to support. I have no idea where the resulting balance falls.

[mpolo]

I don't see a problem with the traitor role (or "Mafia supporter"). Perhaps Mafia could have been told that that person existed. I don't think it is necessary that they know the whole mafia, though. I've seen them before where if the Mafia tried to kill their supporter, they instead became a full member of the mafia.

None of those constellations seems like bastardy to me.