Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (Game Over)

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:28 pm UTC

Sabrar, no need to apologize, your playstyle is actually somewhat similar to my own.

If you are town, my problem is that you are doing exactly what I have been cautioning you against since D1. You have decided on a setup that fits the way you believe a mafia game should be set up, with standard roles that you believe must be in the game (like doctor and cop). You have been meta gaming the mod and projecting what you believe is the way he should handle the flavor into game reads. It seems to me that you made many of your decisions on D1 and are unwilling discuss anything that goes against what you have already decided. For example, you decided D1 that Chane is an innocent child, and you have been unwilling to back down from this even though the proof never materialized. But I somewhat understand this because I’ve been guilty of tunneling (Carlington can confirm this since he’s usually the victim).

I still have some suspicion against Chane (and by extension crucialityfactor) but as I discussed in my previous post, Chane is basically lynch immune, and Sabrar has pretty much given crucialityfactor license to lurk, so that’s a dead end. I’m not sure if Sabrar’s infodump is just a scum ploy to try to get everyone to claim, so I need a few hours to think about it. But I will say that I’m not happy Carlington seems so ready to follow Sabrar.

More when I get home from work.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:25 pm UTC

@bessie: I think I've explained why having 2 Innocent Childs makes perfect sense, given emlightened's claim. Yes, that is me trying to guess the mod's intention but I think it's a very reasonable assumption that ties all of the available info nicely together. Your complaint about Chane not providing her proof would be valid if she'd contributed anything D2. Since she didn't, the lack of proof basically means nothing in itself.
On another note please give me your opinion if Carlington's role (as stated) is likely to be given to scum.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby crucialityfactor » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:42 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Sabrar, no need to apologize, your playstyle is actually somewhat similar to my own.

If you are town, my problem is that you are doing exactly what I have been cautioning you against since D1. You have decided on a setup that fits the way you believe a mafia game should be set up, with standard roles that you believe must be in the game (like doctor and cop). You have been meta gaming the mod and projecting what you believe is the way he should handle the flavor into game reads. It seems to me that you made many of your decisions on D1 and are unwilling discuss anything that goes against what you have already decided. For example, you decided D1 that Chane is an innocent child, and you have been unwilling to back down from this even though the proof never materialized. But I somewhat understand this because I’ve been guilty of tunneling (Carlington can confirm this since he’s usually the victim).

I still have some suspicion against Chane (and by extension crucialityfactor) but as I discussed in my previous post, Chane is basically lynch immune, and Sabrar has pretty much given crucialityfactor license to lurk, so that’s a dead end. I’m not sure if Sabrar’s infodump is just a scum ploy to try to get everyone to claim, so I need a few hours to think about it. But I will say that I’m not happy Carlington seems so ready to follow Sabrar.

More when I get home from work.


He's pretty dead on from my perspective. That's the problem I'm having at the moment. I need you or kalira to provide me with some info that can counter what Sabrar has laid out. And it can't be that Chane and I are scum. Because, we aren't. That line of thinking really has been beaten to death at this point and I feel like any sane townie wouldn't still be trying for that angle. To me, it sounds like you are just super desperate at this point and just hoping for anyone not-scum to be lynched.

If you are town, I really need you to convince me of it, otherwise sabrar and his scum buddy are going to run away with this.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:59 pm UTC

Soft deadline is at 18:30 UTC, Wednesday 6th April, approximately 20 1/2 hours from now.

Votals:

bessie(1): Sabrar

Not voting: Madge, kalira, crucialityfactor, bessie, Chane, Carlington.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Carlington » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:46 pm UTC

:lol: I will 100% back bessie on her proclivity for tunneling.

The only reason I'm so readily accepting what Sabrar says is that it matches things I know must be true. A mislynch today is a mislynch anyway, that's not particular to you or kalira. Much like cf, if somebody gives me a convincing counterclaim or something to contradict Sabrar, I'll obviously have to stop and consider that.
If Sabrar can't prove his claim tomorrow, I think we should lynch him without question, as I can see no reason to have lied about it today as town. In that case, I think it's most likely that Sabrar is scumbuddies with either of Chane or cf.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:28 am UTC

Carlington wrote::lol: I will 100% back bessie on her proclivity for tunneling.

Of course you would. You’re obviously scum. :)

Ok, let see where we are.

crucialityfactor wrote:He's pretty dead on from my perspective. That's the problem I'm having at the moment. I need you or kalira to provide me with some info that can counter what Sabrar has laid out. And it can't be that Chane and I are scum. Because, we aren't. That line of thinking really has been beaten to death at this point and I feel like any sane townie wouldn't still be trying for that angle. To me, it sounds like you are just super desperate at this point and just hoping for anyone not-scum to be lynched.

Yes, but please consider my perspective. Proof? Is it townier of me to take your word as fact without proof? No one has offered one bit of proof that you or Chane are town, or that Chane is a doctor or an innocent child. There is some evidence that you may be a watcher, because you shared a result and it was confirmed (by a very suspicious player). But I think that I perhaps didn’t understand how the innocent child role works. I missed this earlier:
Sabrar wrote:
Carlington wrote: (although, Sabrar, it'd be handy if you could clarify how the Innocent Child mechanic works in your case).

Extremely simple, I pm the mod stating that I want to use my ability and he will post in thread (probably with some nice flavor) telling everyone that my role is indeed Rand.

At the risk of sounding super desperate, can the more experienced players (Madge and crucialityfactor) confirm that this is how this role works? Because honest truth, I assumed that Chane would submit the innocent child request with her N1 action and it would have appeared in the D2 opening flavor. I don't know why I thought that, maybe I read an old game when I used to lurk and that is how it worked in that game. But it looks like Sabrar is claiming that he will submit his action on D3 and the mod will confirm in thread on D3. And I did assume Chane had communicated with the mods on N1 because of this:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:IMPORTANT: Even if you have already submitted a night action or otherwise contacted the mods tonight, please send Suzaku and I a PM to confirm that you are still around (a night action is sufficient for this purpose). Those who do not do so risk being replaced.

So I admit that what I thought was proof that Chane was not an innocent child may be wrong. Right now, the strongest evidence to me of your towniness is that Sabrar is so completely pushing that Chane is town (and by extension you). He is pushing it hard enough that I think he knows you are town. More about that in a moment.

OK, crucialityfactor wants me to counter what Sabrar has laid out. Let’s see what he has laid out.
Sabrar wrote:1. I'm an Innocent Child, therefore I was more likely to believe Chane about her claim. With emlightened's reveal it makes complete sense to have 2 of these roles in the game: Chane reveals herself D2 so N2 Padan Fain gets the dagger, I reveal myself D3 and N3 he kills me. Therefore Chane is Town and by extension crucialityfactor as well. BTW I think Madge is either lying about the prison part or it might be a hidden mechanic that would have happened either way, regardless of any N1 actions.

I think I will actually be a little sad if this is the truth, because the way you word it, it seems like the mod is guiding the actions of the game too much (if the mod projected this course of action and Padan Fain’s only chance to win was to get released N1, dagger N2, kill Rand N3, because in a game this small it’s very unlikely there will be a N4).

Sabrar wrote:2. All of the basic townie roles have been covered (as has been also mentioned by bessie here). bessie and kalira have not counterclaimed anyone and did not provide an alternative why we had 2 deaths N1 so I'm forced to accept Carlington's claim about his role as having 2 scum + SK + Assassin + Vigilante in the game is not something jimbob would do in my opinion after Dollhouse. (If there's 2 deaths N2 then we're screwed either way). Carlington's ability is unlikely to be given to scum, as having it potentially kill an investigative role seems very unfair.
Therefore Carlington is not scum (could possibly be Independent Survivor but that's irrelevant for the current analysis).

Again, you’re meta gaming the mod. Your link doesn’t work, but I assume it points to my setup speculation here.
bessie wrote:Initial observations. Setup speculation - I’m flavor blind and haven’t had time to do more than read the main Wikipedia page, so I’m not sure if this fits with the flavor. This was advertised as a power role heavy game, and according to the opening post, there may be alignment or win-condition changing roles, and no role is guaranteed to be sane. My guess is that there are no vanilla roles, so probably two power mafia because I think that three power mafia is too many. I’ve been going back and forth on what the possible alignment changing role may be. If there is a cult, I think that the recruit won’t be limited to one or if it is limited to one they will have a kill, because if the total number of cult is limited to two then they couldn’t outnumber mafia so how would they win? If we don’t have a cult then maybe we have a mafia supporter that will be recruited if they are targeted by the mafia. My guess is that the town roles will have a lot of protection, so could include any or all of doctor, jailkeeper, roleblocker, and bullet-proof or recruit-proof townie. On other third party roles, I don’t know, depends on if there is a cult with a kill. If there is, than maybe a survivor, if not, then maybe a serial killer.

Any or all of these protective roles: doctor, jailkeeper, roleblocker, bulletproof/recruitproof townie. All if we have a serial killer active since N1. Fewer if the SK only becomes active on N3. The only one that is confirmed is the jailkeeper. I actually think a jailkeeper and a doctor may be too much in addition to Sabrar’s bulletproofness. I think that if Chane is a doctor, her power may be limited. And you don’t yet know if kalira or I have a protective role.

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: I think I've explained why having 2 Innocent Childs makes perfect sense, given emlightened's claim. Yes, that is me trying to guess the mod's intention but I think it's a very reasonable assumption that ties all of the available info nicely together. Your complaint about Chane not providing her proof would be valid if she'd contributed anything D2. Since she didn't, the lack of proof basically means nothing in itself.
On another note please give me your opinion if Carlington's role (as stated) is likely to be given to scum.

I really don’t know how to counter your guessing of the mod’s intensions and asserting that this is the only way things can be. You're not open to discussion on this. Having two innocent childs does not make sense to me, but I'm not insisting that I am correct.

Given that I may have misunderstood the innocent child role and for other obvious reasons, I'm backing off Chane and posting this now so that someone else can weigh in (maybe Madge?). That leaves me with Sabrar, Carlington, and kalira as my scum choices. Because of Sabrar's insistence on Chane's innocence with no real proof, I am leaning toward Sabrar knowing this because he is scum. I'm not voting yet because I need to reread everyone and make sure that I'm not tunneling just because he is voting for me. Back in a while, I have a few things I need to do tonight.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:42 am UTC

Sorry, I made a mistake. emlightened claimed before crucialityfactor. I'm rereading now.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:49 am UTC

Quick remark: link was supposed to point here, where you yourself include a doctor + jailkeeper + bulletproof townie in your setup speculation.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:57 am UTC

EBWOP: granted that was with an SK, however if we do have an SK then it can't be emlightened, so again by process elimination the set of {bessie, kalira, Carlington} contains 2 scum + SK so it would be a good idea to lynch you.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:08 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Quick remark: link was supposed to point here, where you yourself include a doctor + jailkeeper + bulletproof townie in your setup speculation.

I explained that post here:
bessie wrote:Sabrar- My possible 10 player setup wasn’t necessarily supposed to be a guess at this game’s setup, it was just supposed to be an example of a game where everyone has a power role. I was just trying to point out that winning will be a team effort, and that I think it’s wrong for one player to consider themselves more important than the other players. I didn’t offer my opinion on the validity of the “sort of doctor” claim and I did not ask for more role information. I don’t have any problems with the role. My suspicions are with the person making the claim.

You acknowledged my explanation that this was not necessarily a guess at the setup, but was an example mainly for illustrative purposes here:
Sabrar wrote:@bessie: thank you for the explanation, your list seemed a little out of place to me as it didn't have a direct connection to the rest of your post.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:17 am UTC

Sorry, it was a long time ago. :D

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:58 am UTC

Okay, more coherent response now that I'm awake:
- when I tried to link your example of a setup, I didn't mean it as 'proof' of any kind, it was just an illustration that the most basic townie roles are all covered with the claims so far. My reasoning works independently of that.
- you seem now to push the idea of me being scum. Possibilities if that were the case:
1.a) I'm lying about my role, Rand does not appear in the game despite Madge's earlier claim that he was her target.
1.b) I'm lying about my role and kalira is Rand (no-one else counterclaimed). That means that I claimed the one role where I knew there would be a counterclaim and deliberately included a mechanic where it can be easily disproved.
2. I'm truthful about my role and Rand is scum.
Please tell me which version you suspect. :wink:

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:07 am UTC

Quick note: fmpov lynching bessie or lynching kalira is the same and it is usually better to lynch the lurker as the more active player then gets to enjoy the game for a while. As kalira hasn't contributed anything for the past 3 days, if you agree please vote for her and I'll switch my vote later. Of course we could ask for mod-prod, extension, etc but it's unlikely that a replacement would be available given the similar situation with Chane and I would prefer if the game wouldn't be decided by multiple mod-kills.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:32 am UTC

Kalira has been modprodded.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Carlington » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:52 am UTC

At this point, my vote will be for kalira. She hasn't yet posted a response to anything since the top of the previous page I think, at which point in time she was very concerned about major decisions like the lynch being made so late in the day. I see that she's been modprodded, so I'll wait a little before voting, but deadline is in 9 hours 48 minutes as I type this, and I will be asleep when it falls. I can only hold out maybe 4 more hours, 5 tops.

I think that Innocent Child usually works in one of two ways: at any point, sometimes after a given point in the game, the player can PM the mod and ask to have their role confirmed; or else there's a predetermined time set for the role reveal to be made in thread by the mod. Sabrar has claimed the former, so I'd ask him to PM the mod first thing he does come morning.

I have the following things left to cover on my list for today:
- crucialityfactor, can you confirm that you'll follow my plan and watch Chane or replacement tonight?
- Madge, can you confirm that you'll follow my plan and not tell us whether you target Chane or not until tomorrow?
- Do you guys wanna do the spoiler thing? I'm proud of that idea, and surprised the mods allowed it, so I kinda wanna do the spoiler thing, but I guess we could also not do it and that would be fine...
- Sabrar, will your vote be staying where it is? As I've explained, I'd rather lynch kalira because bessie is my other possibility for Rand, but even if I vote kalira, bessie will be lynched if the votals are tied at deadline.
- bessie, are you on board with my plan? You aren't required to be, unless you're a roleblocker and town, but I also don't want to ignore your concerns if you are town so I do want to see if any concerns can be accommodated.
- I'll place my vote last thing before bed tonight.

I'll be around and probably checking the forums an unhealthy amount see if anyone has posted here, if anyone needs me just yell.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:03 am UTC

Carlington wrote:- Sabrar, will your vote be staying where it is? As I've explained, I'd rather lynch kalira because bessie is my other possibility for Rand, but even if I vote kalira, bessie will be lynched if the votals are tied at deadline.

You probably missed my latest post, I will switch to kalira if that is preferred by the majority.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby crucialityfactor » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:14 am UTC

@bessie Your post really touched on a lot of the issues I am having with things now.

-Madge as indie makes sense, but the perfect storm of finding the right player so many nights in a row seems a hit much.

-You are correct in how the innocent child role works. However I have never seen it used before, much less twice in one game. I don't believe that Chane is an IC. But then again I do not have details of her powers. Only rolename and alignment.

-Going along with both of these points. Sabrar's role seems pretty BS. Overly complicated, perfect storm-like, and has role functions that I Have never seen used before.

-But your response hasn't really persuaded me much about you and your role. I don't like mass roleclaims deciding a game, but What is even worse is town withholding information when the game is on the line.

-That being said. I will reveal the full nature of my alignment with Chane. The role names Sabrar guessed are correct. I am Chanes warder. I die instead of her if she dies any other way except for a lynch. In addition I have my nightwatch power. I do not know anything about Chane other than that she is Town. I assume she would have some sort of important ability since I am supposed to take the NK for her. But we won't be rinding that out. Such a freaking troll. Dragging us through all that crap on D1 just to go inactive.

Because I feel like this is such a crucial (tee hee) point in the game, and we have just now reached the point where we are dealing with the really big issues that will probably determine the outcome. Not to mention kalira is a key part of all this too...

May we please have a 48 hr extension?

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:46 am UTC

crucialityfactor wrote:-Going along with both of these points. Sabrar's role seems pretty BS. Overly complicated, perfect storm-like, and has role functions that I Have never seen used before.

Please explain what you mean by the underlined part. Also my written role has exactly 2 parts (IC + Vig, Bulletproof is just conjuncture on my part) while yours has 2 or 3, depending if we group knowing Chane's role and protecting her into 1 or not. Therefore I don't see why you would consider mine overly complicated.

Somewhat lengthy explanation of how I guessed your roles correctly to follow. My main reason for doing so is that you'll be able to see (hopefully) that my claimed role was not made up on the spot, rather that my actions were always consistent with it.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Madge » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:22 pm UTC

Yep, I am down with your plan; I may or may not target Chane tonight, and I will breadcrumb in my first post whether I have or not, and then explain the breadcrumb after the other person has verified what I did.

If I don't target Chane, I will target my corpse from when I was lynched D1.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:38 pm UTC

My full thought process from the very beginning (with links to relevant posts):

1. Chane claims to know your alignment. She's a new player on this forum, playing in her first game. I find it hard to believe that newbie scum would draw attention to herself so quickly and by her own accord. It's also unlikely that she would point out a possible Lover as that is very detrimental, so I find it safe to mention this possibility in my inquiry (otherwise drawing scum's attention to it would be dangerous).

2. Chane backs off and hints that something I said made her reconsider. I go through all the content posted by that time and can find only 1 thing: the possibility that you are secretly Lovers (hidden mechanic), mainly because kalira's setup speculation:
kalira wrote:Moiraine, Lan – Blue Ajah Aes Sedai who found the Two Rivers folk and her Warder. She doesn’t always tell the truth, but it’s generally in the interests of good (think Dumbledore?). He’s all about honor; from a country further north into the Blight that was destroyed. Possible one-way lovers? If an Aes Sedai dies, her Warder generally gives up the will to live.


3. I do not yet accept her claim at face value, however keeping the possibility in mind I ask her not to reveal anything else. There is also a possibility that Chane knows your role but you don't know hers which suggests to me that she's the Warder. Furthermore Lan is mentioned by name in my role-pm as the one who trains me, so I assume that Chane could be him but don't look at the wiki yet for possible connections as it doesn't seem relevant.

4. Then Chane claims Doctor, I do a facepalm and later revisit my earlier assumption, putting her as Aes Sedai. She hints at protection, this is consistent with Warder being Bodyguard so I'm even more confident in my read.

5. Later Chane claims that she can prove to be a Doctor D2. I'm in the unique position to know that the mod included at least 1 Innocent Child in the game, so together with the previous claims I can accept it as being a possibility. As seen here I'm very sure about my read at this time.

6. Chane continues to reveal details about her role and it's absolutely consistent with my previous assumptions. At this point I'm flabbergasted that seemingly I'm the only one who understands what's going on, but obviously scum wouldn't admit to it and you want to keep your distance as much as possible.

7. In my D1 read list I mention that I understand your excessive defense (as I did the same when I was Lovers with patzer in Smalltown). Later I explicitly mention the Innocent Child mechanic.

8. No-one counterclaims Doctor and I think it's a standard role to be included so at some point D2 I become fully convinced of my reasoning.

9. Finally I go to the wiki, establish that Moiraine is a good Healer and Lan is her Warder so I'm confident about your roles.

BTW: I don't think that you're Lovers at this point as it would be silly together with Bodyguard, also because including Lovers didn't work so well in Dollhouse either.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Carlington » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:36 pm UTC

I have to sleep. Unless we are granted another extension, this'll be the last thing I do today.

Vote: kalira
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:25 pm UTC

Unvote
Vote: kalira


@Madge: in case we don't get an extension, could you please vote (preferably for kalira) before the deadline?

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby crucialityfactor » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:33 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:My full thought process from the very beginning (with links to relevant posts):

1. Chane claims to know your alignment. She's a new player on this forum, playing in her first game. I find it hard to believe that newbie scum would draw attention to herself so quickly and by her own accord. It's also unlikely that she would point out a possible Lover as that is very detrimental, so I find it safe to mention this possibility in my inquiry (otherwise drawing scum's attention to it would be dangerous).

2. Chane backs off and hints that something I said made her reconsider. I go through all the content posted by that time and can find only 1 thing: the possibility that you are secretly Lovers (hidden mechanic), mainly because kalira's setup speculation:
kalira wrote:Moiraine, Lan – Blue Ajah Aes Sedai who found the Two Rivers folk and her Warder. She doesn’t always tell the truth, but it’s generally in the interests of good (think Dumbledore?). He’s all about honor; from a country further north into the Blight that was destroyed. Possible one-way lovers? If an Aes Sedai dies, her Warder generally gives up the will to live.


3. I do not yet accept her claim at face value, however keeping the possibility in mind I ask her not to reveal anything else. There is also a possibility that Chane knows your role but you don't know hers which suggests to me that she's the Warder. Furthermore Lan is mentioned by name in my role-pm as the one who trains me, so I assume that Chane could be him but don't look at the wiki yet for possible connections as it doesn't seem relevant.

4. Then Chane claims Doctor, I do a facepalm and later revisit my earlier assumption, putting her as Aes Sedai. She hints at protection, this is consistent with Warder being Bodyguard so I'm even more confident in my read.

5. Later Chane claims that she can prove to be a Doctor D2. I'm in the unique position to know that the mod included at least 1 Innocent Child in the game, so together with the previous claims I can accept it as being a possibility. As seen here I'm very sure about my read at this time.

6. Chane continues to reveal details about her role and it's absolutely consistent with my previous assumptions. At this point I'm flabbergasted that seemingly I'm the only one who understands what's going on, but obviously scum wouldn't admit to it and you want to keep your distance as much as possible.

7. In my D1 read list I mention that I understand your excessive defense (as I did the same when I was Lovers with patzer in Smalltown). Later I explicitly mention the Innocent Child mechanic.

8. No-one counterclaims Doctor and I think it's a standard role to be included so at some point D2 I become fully convinced of my reasoning.

9. Finally I go to the wiki, establish that Moiraine is a good Healer and Lan is her Warder so I'm confident about your roles.

BTW: I don't think that you're Lovers at this point as it would be silly together with Bodyguard, also because including Lovers didn't work so well in Dollhouse either.



Ok, this has me convinced based on some flavor that I have in my role PM that I really didn't think all that much of until now.

Vote: kalira

I will target Chane tonight and post a spoiler with my result if I am alive tomorrow.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:43 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:- you seem now to push the idea of me being scum. Possibilities if that were the case:
1.a) I'm lying about my role, Rand does not appear in the game despite Madge's earlier claim that he was her target.
1.b) I'm lying about my role and kalira is Rand (no-one else counterclaimed). That means that I claimed the one role where I knew there would be a counterclaim and deliberately included a mechanic where it can be easily disproved.
2. I'm truthful about my role and Rand is scum.
Please tell me which version you suspect. :wink:

Sorry I didn’t come back last night. I fell asleep reading the Wiki, trying to decide if Rand was in the game, because I’m leading toward 1a. Because your proof that Rand is in the game is that Madge claimed he is her target. Madge claimed Rand was her target after Sabrar suggested the possibility here.
Sabrar wrote:ninja'd: @Carlington: I'm flavorblind but based on a very quick search on the wiki Padan Fain's only sensible target would be Rand al'Thor. So even a simple yes/no answer would reveal 'something'. Might reconsider later, meanwhile I'm fully aware that I'm doing the same to you but I don't like your role-fishing.

Madge is scum. And there are many things wrong with her claims that I outlined here. So why should I take Madge’s word that she is looking for Rand as proof Rand is even in the game? And your argument, that is sure to be forthcoming, that it makes sense for Rand to be in the game so he must be in the game, and you as mod would put him in the game so that is how any mod would do it, well, I’m over debating with your meta gaming of the mod.

And if you really want to debate flavor, there’s this.
Sabrar wrote:Chane - Doctor, Innocent Child on D2, holder of dagger needed by Padan Fain (likely Moiraine Damodred, Aes Sedai)

What makes you think Moiraine has this dagger? I fell asleep reading the “Ruby-hilted dagger” Wiki and it looks like it is Mat’s dagger. So I think you may be wrong there too (in addition to the innocent child part). I am on the fence about the doctor part though because it makes flavor sense for Moiraine to be a doctor, but I don’t think it makes game sense because I think mpolo was our “doctor” role.

And... this is why I don’t usually sign up for games where I am flavor blind. I spend hours researching flavor when I could have been playing the game, and I’m still at a disadvantage. A lot happened when I was asleep and I won’t have time to respond to it all.


Ninja'd by crucialityfactor while I was typing this out.

I will be at work at deadline, and I will assume no extension and that kalira is going to be lynched, so I don’t need to make a save-my-ass vote on kalira. This means I can vote on my scum read, so I will do this:

Vote: Sabrar

Because I suspect that you’re scum of some flavor (mafia or cult).

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:53 pm UTC

@bessie: just in case you'll see this and have a chance to react before N2.
Normally I would point out that crucialityfactor (almost certain confirmed Town, especially if Madge + me are scum) accepted my claim based on flavor in his role-pm. I honestly can say that I never suspected that jimbob would put such a connection into them and we could debate whether this was a mistake on his part or on mine to bring it up. But that's moot anyway. Your best chance at survival is to come up with a reasonable explanation for the second death on N1 as that and Carlington's claim are the only things that allow me to rule him out from the possible scum-list. Should kalira flip Town then Carlington is definitely scum along with you and this will be clear to everyone tomorrow as I either die N2 or reveal myself at the beginning of D3.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:43 pm UTC

@crucialityfactor: here's my insurance policy in case I die tonight.
- if kalira is Town then we've lost and I've made a huge mistake.
- if she's scum then bessie is her partner. Explanation: I'm currently deadset on bessie so she needs me dead as she has a better chance of convincing you of her innocence. Similarly Carlington wants me alive as I already believe him but you are still wavering (which is totally understandable).

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

I think it's reasonable to grant a 48 hour extension, as requested.

New soft deadline 18:30 UTC, Friday 8th April (just under 49 hours from now). No more extensions will be granted, unless a replacement miraculously appears from nowhere.

Votals:

kalira(3): Carlington, Sabrar, crucialityfactor
Sabrar(1): bessie

Not voting: Madge, kalira, Chane.

kalira is at L - 1. With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby crucialityfactor » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:43 pm UTC

If kalira is town then Carlington took us to school.

Ninja'd: Oooooo.

unvote

Just to stop a hammer, just in case kalira returns or is replaced.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:03 pm UTC

I assumed we wouldn't get an extension and already divulged everything I had to say. Unless kalira comes back I'm not sure what more i can add to the discussion but feel free to ask me anything you want.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby kalira » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:50 pm UTC

Guys, I'm sorry. I just pm'd the mods, but you deserve to be in on this too. Family medical emergency happened on Sunday, and I just haven't been here to check anything. I'm sorry, I know there aren't many replacements at the moment, and I should have at least come back earlier to say something. I really wanted to stick around for this game, but it looks like that's not going to happen. I don't feel bad about dealing with this situation, but I owed you guys better than to just disappear.
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:55 pm UTC

Don't worry about it at all, best of wishes to you and your family!

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:29 am UTC

Best wishes for your family kalira! We all understand, and real life issues always come first.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Madge » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:38 am UTC

:(. I hope everything goes OK for you Kalira.

So.......... do we just want to hammer Kalira since we were likely going to lynch her anyway, and save replacement related dramas?
I'm writing a vampire yaoi novel, here's my accountability link: https://www.beeminder.com/mad/redandwilliam

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:31 am UTC

That seems to be the most reasonable thing to do.
BTW should bessie be Town then kalira has to be scum by process of elimination and should bessie be scum she would have hammered town!kalira when she had the chance. Given that I'm now very comfortable with lynching kalira today.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby bessie » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:20 am UTC

I read kalira's post as a replacement request, and I was waiting for a post from the mod. I'm sure that the replacement he referred to in his last post was for Chane, since kalira said she just PM'd the mods. I'm ok with talking and agreeing on the lynch, but I feel that we should at least wait for an acknowledgement from the mod that kalira is in replacement limbo with Chane.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:39 am UTC

Yes, kalira has asked for a replacement. I am also seeking a replacement for Chane. Modkills/replacement plans are likely to be finalised today, so no point in asking me about them before this evening!
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Madge » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:28 am UTC

I'm on board with voting for Kalira, as long as it is understood that my vote comes with a hug and the wish that everything will turn out well:

Vote: Kalira
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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:54 pm UTC

My thoughts are with you Kalira.

Vote: kalira

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:23 pm UTC

Should be hammer.

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Re: Wheel of Time - The Horn of Valere (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:35 pm UTC

Indeed, that's hammer. Kalira has been lynched. Day end flavour to follow later, but feel free to send in night actions now. As I am away much of this weekend, night deadline will be Monday evening UTC.

As she did not contribute today, Chane will not get a night action today. She may still be mod-killed. I will make a final decision this evening.
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