Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

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Madge
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby Madge » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:46 pm UTC

For the record: I was at work at 6:45am yesterday for a site visit and was stood up, so I was very tired and was in my bed at 8:30 though I wasn't asleep until 10. I normally am asleep about 10,10:30 though so someone's comment earlier about it "only" being 11pm my time was hilarious to me.

As far as today - great. I've lost and my corpse gets to shamble through.

I don't care about how townie each of you is. I really don't.

What I want to know if what each of you, individually, did during the game to help me win - by keeping me alive, helping me work out my questions, helping me understand their implications, etc. So no "oh moody helped you and I'm town just like he is!". You gotta say what you did personally.

Of course, the scum one of you has the advantage that you can take credit on behalf of the scum team for not killing me, though keeping me alive was always in your best interest because, well, look where we are today... If scum claims though I'd like a whole long explanation about how we got here, because I enjoy the theatrics of such things.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby Madge » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:48 pm UTC

Oh, also, I submitted two questions, which were, in essence:

Is moody/suzaku's role a role that exists in the game and doesn't alignment change?

(if one was lynched the question would be about the other)

So.............. great lot of good THAT did me. I'm blind here guys.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby JackHK » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:00 pm UTC

I suppose one thing in my favour is that I have never, as far as I remember, doubted your honesty. For more specific details, you'll have to wait for me to wake up tomorrow, cause it's getting late where I am. :)

Unfortunately for me, the fact that jimbob has been much more active this whole game probably gets him brownie points.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:23 am UTC

I'll try and collect up my argument when I'm at a proper computer with time available. I might be able to do so at one of my next lunchtimes. Otherwise, it'll be tomorrow evening my time. Off the top of my head, I can say that I have suggested some questions at various points during the game, and supported lynching Matt instead of adnapemit on D5 to give you a chance to win. Jack may have done either or both of these things as well, but I can't easily check atm.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 4

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:45 am UTC

Deadline is in 11/2 days.

Votals:
JackHK - 1 (jimbobmacdoodle)
jimbobmacdoodle - 1 (JackHK)

Not voting: Madge

Tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby Madge » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:01 am UTC

To add onto Sabrar's post, I'm imposing my own unofficial 24 hour deadline from the time of this post now.

If you haven't posted your appeal for Why You Helped The Indie The Most, I'll vote with the person who has posted.

If nobody posts for 24 hours I'm gonna flip a coin.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:29 am UTC

Madge wrote:To add onto Sabrar's post, I'm imposing my own unofficial 24 hour deadline from the time of this post now.

If you haven't posted your appeal for Why You Helped The Indie The Most, I'll vote with the person who has posted.

If nobody posts for 24 hours I'm gonna flip a coin.
Sounds reasonable. I'll be posting this evening as promised in my previous post.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby JackHK » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:09 am UTC

Okay. :D

In my first post about the game, I state that I believe you are most likely telling the truth.

I (accidentally) took some of the focus off you D1 by jumping at shadows with moody's lie detector statement.

I didn't want to lynch you D1 even when there was no-one more suspicious than you.

By the evening of D1, I was already convinced that you were telling the truth. Unfortunately I had no suggestions re questions to ask.

I understood your logic for why you voted for me on D2, and did not react badly.

I used my Pope ability on Night 2. It is possible that the Mafia tried to kill you that night, and I might have saved your life.

I used a (faulty) GPS on you N3 to give you another witness to prove you were telling the truth.

I had the idea to allow you to win (and was ninja'ed by moody having the same idea) when you were afraid town would win and you hadn't guessed the end day in time.

I tried as quickly as possible to work out what happened at the start of D6, which helped you because at that point you needed to know in order to win.

I managed to clear you with logic D6 when some people had the idea that you might have been mafia from the very beginning. In the same post, I show that it is in your best interest to side with town.

(I will point out that jimbob was consistently complaining all through D6 that "logic wouldn't help us at all", which is a classic scum distracting manoeuvre.)

I reckon I was the one asking the most impertinent question of Sabrar during D6.

AAAARRRGH!!!!!!!

(Sorry, that was just me being annoyed that I let jimbob fool me. We were so close to lynching him!!!!! Reading through Day 6 is making me sad.)

That's it. It's not as much as I would like, but oh well. Not much else I can do now but wait and let the benevolent all-powerful Madge decide.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby JackHK » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:11 am UTC

FQJA: Knowing that jimbob is the scum makes this post simultaneously infuriating and yet hilarious. 8-) 8-) 8-)
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'd considered doing that myself The question would then have been, which of us was scum pretending to be town pretending to be scum?

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:29 am UTC

JackHK wrote:(I will point out that jimbob was consistently complaining all through D6 that "logic wouldn't help us at all", which is a classic scum distracting manoeuvre.)
Not going to do my case now, but I really wanted to point out that my "logic wouldn't help us at all" idea was in reference to which of us 4 were scum using claimed results, rather than the gross generalisation you are painting it as. In particular, I'm pretty sure I consistently ruled out Madge as scum from as soon as Suzaku had claimed his results, which demonstrates that I wasn't saying abandon all logic, but we didn't have enough information to outright rule that one or other player was scum (or not scum), EXCEPT for Madge.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby JackHK » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:31 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Not going to do my case now, but I really wanted to point out that my "logic wouldn't help us at all" idea was in reference to which of us 4 were scum using claimed results, rather than the gross generalisation you are painting it as. In particular, I'm pretty sure I consistently ruled out Madge as scum from as soon as Suzaku had claimed his results, which demonstrates that I wasn't saying abandon all logic, but we didn't have enough information to outright rule that one or other player was scum (or not scum), EXCEPT for Madge.


Ah, I see. That does make more sense. However, I know you are scum anyway, so oh well :D)

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:13 pm UTC

JackHK wrote:However, I know you are scum anyway, so oh well :D)
I could say the same thing about you, but oh well. :P

Time for why Madge should support me and vote Jack (full list of links to follow, summary at the end):

I'll freely admit that I was somewhat sceptical of your claim D1, but then I am naturally cautious about early indie claims, because it's easy to hide. However, I swung around to generally believing you after your proper claim here. In that same post, I also suggested asking a question to try to confirm/rule out a cult (and I still claim that was a good question, but I guess that's a matter of opinion).

Later on I disputed the idea that you were a safe lynch.

In my big reads post towards the end of D1, I continued to say I believed you.

I responded to your question asking why scum would arrest dimochka.

In my D2 reads list I stated that I said "I think it extremely likely that Madge is who she says she is".

I explained when analysing the three "indie" claims in this post that I believed your answer as well, and saw no reason why you might have lied (assuming you were an Oracle, which I believed you to be).

I continued to be clear that I broadly believed you come D3. Same again later on that day.

Pointed out during D3 that the day could have ended D4 with two correct lynches (and indeed we had them both more or less pinned by that point).

In my big D3 reads/logic post I made clear that I believed your claim, and also ruled you out as being scum assuming a 3 scum game, based on logic.

Suggested Jack track you so that we could verify his GPS.

Continued to believe you D4.

On D4, made clear my belief that D5 was going to be the last day.

Continued to make it clear in my 4 scum logic post that although the logic didn't rule you out as scum, I still believed it unlikely that you were.

And again, come D5, I continued to show I believed you.

I supported the not lynching adnapemit plan in order to allow you to win. In that same post, I also suggested asking a question to determine the number of remaining Mafia players. That was before you revealed that you asked exactly that question already! I also suggested a couple of variants to that question to try to determine if adnapemit had any teammates.

Stated that you couldn't be scum D6 based on Suzaku's claim. Repeated this several times throughout the day.

At the end of this post I suggested a question for N6, not that it particularly would help you win, I'll admit.

Pointed out that although not a guaranteed loss, No Lynch would upset you and therefore make it hard for Town to win, therefore discouraging No Lynch.

---

Summary: Apart from some initial scepticism before your full claim, I have consistently believed you, and have also demonstrated through logic that you weren't scum in what I believed to be the most likely case. I suggested questions for you D1, D5 and D6, the first two of which I believe would have been helpful to you, the latter didn't really matter. I suggested a couple of times when I thought the game would end, in an attempt to help you with your guess, and supported delaying a lynch so that you had a chance of winning. In general, I've tried to be helpful to you, even if you didn't take the advice I offered. I also believe that my general attempts to analyse the game should have helped you decide when the game would end, though only you can judge how much it did.

And finally, if all else fails, I'm willing to offer cookies :D

I hope that information is useful in helping you make the decision.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby Madge » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:44 am UTC

OK, thankyou folks.

Firstly: the automatic win would be for scum to have come clean, explained why they did what they did, and gone through the backstory of how the scum numbers were modified, with bonus points for attempting to signal me yesterday that they could point out.

So neither of you achieved that.

I'm going to try and make my decision based on the evidence before me, a bit sad that there was no big scum reveal that would have appeased my love of theatrics. I want to make it clear, on the record, that I want to choose town (though I'm not especially trying to), because I'm mad at the lying scum who is purporting to be town and denying me of the aforementioned theatrics.

For the record: I think jackHK's pope power probably didn't save me. Scum knows that I'm at least in principle willing to side with them at endgame, even if they openly claim their alignment. A town player would do no such thing. I knew I was always going to be the last on scum's hitlist, or at least near the bottom, so part of my strategy in claiming was to ensure that they knew not to kill me and to kill town instead, as well as to make town like me because I'm a source of useful information for them.

In the end.... I think I'm siding with Jack. I have gone back and forth on it a lot. Like, literally 4 times I have changed the name at the beginning of this sentence.

It's actually entirely based on Jimbob's mentioning not to vote no lynch yesterday. It is after the silversmithing is alleged to have occurred, when more kills are great for scum, especially helpful!jimbob!scum who is unlikely to be lynched anyway (though it didn't work out). And I think that scum!jimbob should have come out today and given us a rousing finale performance. Jack on the other hand was normal, ordinary town. And town were the ones who really could have chosen to lynch me, so I'm trying to reward them.

So, I've lost. I hope whoever I helped win is grateful.

Vote: jimbob

Thanks for modding a great game for us, Sabrar!
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby Sabrar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:50 am UTC

That's hammer and game over one way or the other.

Please wait for official end-post.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Day 7

Postby Sabrar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:02 am UTC

Final votals:
jimbobmacdoodle - 2 (JackHK, Madge)
JackHK - 1 (jimbobmacdoodle)


jimbobmacdoodle has been lynched.
He was Mediator, originally aligned with Town, turned scum N5 due to unknowingly also being Silversmith. (his role-blocking was ineffective if Mafia targeted specifically him with the NK)

Town (minus Vengeful Siblings) wins due to JackHK remaining alive as the only townie.
Suicidal Communist (matt96) wins after achieving both parts of his win-condition.
Prophet (Madge) loses for incorrectly guessing when the game would end.
Vengeful Siblings (generalz and moody7277) lose as they were unable to avenge their Sibling's death.
Mafia (both old and new) loses.

Remaining roles:

JackHK: Pope with a Sensor
Madge: Messenger Oracle Prophet

Mod-thoughts to follow sometime later.

Please give me any feedback about roles/balance/level of bastardry/whatever!

Thanks to everyone for participating - hope you all enjoyed it!
Last edited by Sabrar on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:56 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Madge » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:10 am UTC

You could have won, Jim, if you'd just come clean.

Town - I'm glad you got something out of it. Pity we couldn't win together but you all tried!

Sabrar - thanks for running the game it was fun!!! Did scum know that a silversmith was in play?
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby generalz » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:24 am UTC

Thanks, that was fun!

Mafia - good job, especially SirGabriel who created an unprecedented mess and jimbob who almost won by himself
Town - we could have won more easily if you weren't so nice with independents!
Moody - sorry, brother, may our souls rest in peace

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Suzaku » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:53 am UTC

Thank you Madge.

Remind me to buy you a beverage of your choice when I'm next in Perth (we have a pretty major office there, so not as unlikely as it may seem).
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby JackHK » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:55 am UTC

Thank you, Madge! I'm sorry that you couldn't win yourself...

You know, I was so worried that jimbob would come clean (it seemed the obvious thing to do) that I really was considering trying to fake being mafia. But I think I left it too late to pull it of convincingly.

I won! Yay! *happy dance* Now to read all the Gojoe spoilers...

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Sabrar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:56 am UTC

Madge wrote:Sabrar - thanks for running the game it was fun!!! Did scum know that a silversmith was in play?

No, it was intended as a surprise to everyone.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby JackHK » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:04 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Madge wrote:Sabrar - thanks for running the game it was fun!!! Did scum know that a silversmith was in play?

No, it was intended as a surprise to everyone.


It certainly was that. 8-) :D

I'm surprised I managed to work out basically what had happened and then Voted wrong anyway!

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Madge » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:20 pm UTC

@Suzaku Watch out, I might take you up on it.

Small world though isn't it? I remember my husband was applying for a job in Sydney and I was like, hmmm, I could force Carlington to be my friend.

Then I wonder what sort of random cross section of people we must all be, hiding behind our avatars and our penchant for online games, and wonder if it could be anything other than kind of awkward.

@Jack oh how I was hoping it would end with a double mafia claim. I would have loved that. Fun!! Theatrics! Stuff happening!!! I've had a lot more fun ever since I started thinking of mafia games as a sort of performance, and I'm glad that the end of this story had town winning despite almost throwing the game away by helping me. It's a good ending that I returned the favour.
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby matt96 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:44 pm UTC

Quick question, did I actually get people to suspect I was anti town or was I only a safe lynch to give Madge a chance to guess?

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby JackHK » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:46 pm UTC

matt96 wrote:Quick question, did I actually get people to suspect I was anti town or was I only a safe lynch to give Madge a chance to guess?


No, I didn't really think you were mafia, I just didn't want you arresting someone town

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:49 pm UTC

Bah, so close. I was too nervous about Madge siding with town as soon as scum claimed, due to her previous claims that she would help town even if she lost. Unfortunately, I'd forgotten Madge's love of theatrics! I think that was my first time in a final day LYLO shoot-out, and I honestly don't know what I'd do next time in a Kingmaker situation.

I was a little upset to have my win condition swapped out from me at such a late stage of the game. I could have bought it if I'd known it might happen, but it felt like I'd done so much hard work earlier on, only to have it all completely negated. That being said, I reckon the only thing I'd have done differently if I'd known I was a silversmith was to not go with the preserve adnapemit plan to help Madge D5, probably claiming to illustrate it as well. But that would have probably cost me the next day, if nobody else believed me. I was also surprised that my roleblock couldn't block adnapemit killing me, as I think that's a little non-standard. I think if win-condition changing effects are in play, they should either be clear to the player who is going to be affected, or it should be under the control of a faction, like a cult, probably with some kind of restriction. Otherwise, bastardry seemed reasonable.

Still, the game was fun, and I enjoyed trying to grasp victory from the jaws of defeat.

@matt - you were the obvious candidate to lynch. We knew there was one scum and two indies out there, and you and Madge were the only two claimed. Lynching you was a good way to delay the game a day without any real cost to town. At least, it would have been if not for my hidden role :(
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Suzaku » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:02 pm UTC

Madge wrote:@Suzaku Watch out, I might take you up on it.

It was entirely serious and I intend to make good on it.

I have to admit that I had a bit of a hard time getting into this game. With a slow-burn power (and a bit of a history of bowing out early) and quite a lot of time at the beginning ending up devoted to "how-to-break-the-game" questions for Madge I was about ready to pack it in at one point.

Very glad I didn't though. The last couple of days were awesome fun. Thank you Sabrar.

For me, I believed Jack because of his unvote and willingness to rethink, so it came down to moody, who shouldn't be the scum because of his sibling role, and jimbob, who couldn't be the scum because he'd been to helpful and too similar to his couldn't be scum D1~ play. Wish I'd gone the other way, now; ain't hindsight fun :P
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Sabrar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:13 pm UTC

- Having a Vengeful Sibling be a Silversmith on top of that is a logistical nightmare that I don't want to handle.

- Mediator is a strong role, especially so that it didn't contain the usual 'cannot target the same player twice in a row' restriction, therefore I didn't think that being useless against the Silversmith scenario would be that much an issue. It is non-standard for sure though and I can understand if jimbob is a bit upset about it.

- In retrospect it would have been better if I'd have allowed SirGabriel to claim the Usurper part of his role but I thought it would be more fun this way. I'll know better next time.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:41 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I enjoyed trying to grasp victory from the jaws of defeat.

So did I.

Sabrar wrote:it would have been better if I'd have allowed SirGabriel to claim the Usurper part of his role

Perhaps. As it was I had a chance of winning if I could convince town to lynch dimochka D1, but if I had revealed I was Usurper, it would be difficult for me to win without publicly forming a scum/independent alliance (which could have worked perfectly in this particular setup, although I had no way of knowing that). I think it would have been better just to not have an Usurper at all, given the number of powerful investigative roles in the game.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby Sabrar » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:47 pm UTC

I meant claiming it for your scum-buddies, that way you could have co-operated to lynch dimochka and establish yourself as a townie (at least for a couple days that might have been enough to reach parity).

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby dimochka » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:55 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:I meant claiming it for your scum-buddies, that way you could have co-operated to lynch dimochka and establish yourself as a townie (at least for a couple days that might have been enough to reach parity).

Yeah I agree, this would have made things much easier / simpler. I would have had no problem with SirG lynching me first if I knew what was going on...

@Madge - I was on your side since early early day 1! Could've returned the favor :D
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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:13 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:I meant claiming it for your scum-buddies, that way you could have co-operated to lynch dimochka and establish yourself as a townie (at least for a couple days that might have been enough to reach parity).

I assumed dimochka would be opposed to that plan, apparently I was wrong.

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Re: Trial of the Pariahs - Game Over

Postby dimochka » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:48 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:
Sabrar wrote:I meant claiming it for your scum-buddies, that way you could have co-operated to lynch dimochka and establish yourself as a townie (at least for a couple days that might have been enough to reach parity).

I assumed dimochka would be opposed to that plan, apparently I was wrong.

Eh, now you know. I play to my wincon, no matter what (you can check out my last two days of play in necro-cultia to see what I mean). If my dying helps a team member get a lot of townie points, I'm perfectly fine with that. That goes for any alignment I play. What I didn't like was that I felt like you were bussing me way too much to have the same wincon (and without me understanding the reasoning behind it), and I assumed that you were therefore not mafia-aligned.

No big deal, it happens. From my end, I'll remember to consider the fact that someone might have a wincon similar to yours and take that into account when I'm deciding how to respond. Still a fun game, especially the twist in the end with Jimbob. I guess we weren't as weak as I thought we were. And I did say that I think we have 4 mafia; guess I wasn't totally wrong!
If you're curious about the origin of my avatar, google "Cheburashka".


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