Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D6)

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mpolo
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby mpolo » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:22 am UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:Also, Elaida disbanded the blue ajah after her coup.


At least up to where I am in the books, there were simply no Blues that stayed to remain in an Elaida-ruled tower. She kept trying to convince Blues to come back, convinced that it undermined the unity of the tower to have an Ajah totally opposed to her. And the introduction to book 7 has now convinced me that Elaida can in no way be considered a "strong leader". She probably has the goal of becoming Amyrlin though.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Gopher of Pern » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:08 am UTC

bessie wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:bessie, what makes you think recruiter?

Sabrar wrote:Why do you think that only 1-2 townies can get recruited?
It’s my initial setup spec. I had to start somewhere. And the setup does not rule it out. Gopher of Pern, what makes you think we don’t have a recruiter?


As I said, I thought cult was a dirty word around here. I have no idea whether a recruiter would fit the flavour, so I have no idea if there is one or not. Hence why I asked why you think there is a recruiter. Nice dodging of the question though.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:44 pm UTC

@Gopher of Pern: why do you think bessie dodged the question? It looks to me like she gave her reasons (though it is entirely up to you if you find them sufficient).

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby JudeMorrigan » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:50 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:
JudeMorrigan wrote:Also, Elaida disbanded the blue ajah after her coup.


At least up to where I am in the books, there were simply no Blues that stayed to remain in an Elaida-ruled tower. She kept trying to convince Blues to come back, convinced that it undermined the unity of the tower to have an Ajah totally opposed to her. And the introduction to book 7 has now convinced me that Elaida can in no way be considered a "strong leader". She probably has the goal of becoming Amyrlin though.

Hmm. It definitely happens. (Google can confirm.) I had genuinely thought it happened fairly early on, but if I've inadvertently spoiled you, you have my sincere apologies. I do still maintain that ahippo's mistake is an odd one for a flavor-savvy person to make though, albeit not a fatal one.

Beyond that, I'm generally concerned with the specificity of somewhat unusual roles in Bessie's setup speculation. I am inclined to suspect that she knows more than she's letting on ... but I'm also not convinced that it's in an anti-town sort of way. At this point, my gut feeling is that scum have been maintaining a low profile.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby matt96 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:20 pm UTC

Just thought I would read up a bit on what the ajahs are, and while I agree that the threat to the white tower is almost certainly the black ajah, I did notice a couple of interesting things that I may be completely misinterpreting. First and most importantly, it appears that an Amrylin from the Red Ajah would likely be considered a threat to the stability of the White Tower, given the reigns of the previous 3 Amrylins from the Red Ajah. Second that maximum consensus is needed for the election of a new Amrylin (which from context appears to be unanimity amongst the Ajahs). Third, that Blue sisters seem most likely to be a strong Amrylin, followed by gray, then green. Yellow and White have only had a single strong Amrylin each, and Brown has never had a strong Amrylin.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby bessie » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:40 pm UTC

vote: dimochka

dimochka wrote:So fmpov you are trying to nitpick something that I don't see to be relevant to the game (and to be fair I have 0 flavor knowledge so I didn't even know there was a creator and/or someone interacting with him).
Maybe, but it was page 1. I do not yet know what is/is not relevant to the game, so I’m not writing off any content yet. And you and I may have different ideas about what we believe is relevant. For example, I would normally think that all this flavor discussion is irrelevant to the game, and that it’s just something to get us talking on D1. But quite honestly, I’m not so sure about this game. The previous Wheel of Time game drew heavily on the flavor, so much that I think the game itself was guided a bit too much by the flavor. And I too am flavor blind (other than what I read on the internet), so I was not interpreting your confirmation post in terms of Wheel of Time flavor, but just as a mafia game post.

dimochka wrote:From my experience, I've seen scum do exactly what you're doing too many times.
And you’ve seen me do it before as town.

dimochka wrote:For the rest of the players - I don't plan to bring up the militant atheist idea again, so either lynch me for it or I'd prefer we don't waste time further discussing it. If you think I'm scummy for posting about it, that's fine, but I don't want to derail discussing towards "should we or should we not vote for the mod."
There is no militant atheist in the game. dimochka’s vote did not show up in the votals.

SirGabriel wrote:2. He didn't have to. Nobody's going to post a serious vote in their confirmation post.
This is not about whether or not dimochka placed a serious vote in his confirmation post. FoS SirGabriel.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Nice dodging of the question though.
I answered your question. I wouldn’t mind discussing it more after others have the opportunity to contribute to the discussion. How about sharing your setup speculation?

JudeMorrigan wrote:Beyond that, I'm generally concerned with the specificity of somewhat unusual roles in Bessie's setup speculation.
How about sharing your setup speculation?

matt96, how about sharing your setup speculation? Or your opinions on players? Opinion on mafia? Something not from Wikipedia?

Diemo, how’s life?

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:59 pm UTC

dimochka's "militant atheist" reactions:

-Sabrar votes with flippant justification
-Jude votes with a more flavor related line, then unvotes based off standard RV practices

both of these have the same level of levity

-bessie gives what looks like a more serious analysis of dimochka's statement. action is to FoS dimochka

Her concern in point 1 is definitely more of a loose guideline than even something as strong as "tradition". On her point 2, I have never been in a game, nor heard of a non-bastard game where the role has used. The closest I came to entertaining the notion that it was used was in the Discworld game last year, therefore any mention of it I am going to consider non-serious. Her point 3 might have some weight depending on following posts.

-SirG flags bessie's reaction
-dimochka's denial of bessie's point 1
-bessie's follow up to other people. refers SirG to meta and dimochka's lack of post. doubles down about dimochka based off his denial. refers to previous games where initial posts lead to scum being revealed.

Her first part looks like she's getting into Poe's law territory; either the joke is so obvious you don't need clarification or the lack of clarification makes you take it seriously. As to the early game scum outing that she links to, these are both related to PM wording gambits that I abhor. I figured that she'd point out some of SDK's work in that area, but maybe she didn't because she doesn't have the same reputation.

-SirG's response to bessie basically reflecting my analysis above.
-dimochka votes bessie. final opinion that bessie is being over-aggressive and drops the point on his part.
-OMGUS vote from bessie, with some comments that seem to be her trying to get past it.

Possible conclusions:
1. Staged confrontation (which would have to have been impromptu at this point) for the purpose of distancing between scum!dim and scum!bessie.
2. As proposed by town!dim, nitpicking by scum!bessie in order to generate enough outrage for a mislynch.
3. All too typical over-reaction among townies. As of right now, I'd give this option the most weight.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote: it seems like bessie is fixating excessively on one little joke.

bessie wrote:At the time you made this post, dimochka had not yet posted and claimed it was a joke.

SirGabriel wrote:He didn't have to. Nobody's going to post a serious vote in their confirmation post.

bessie wrote:This is not about whether or not dimochka placed a serious vote in his confirmation post. FoS SirGabriel.

You implied that it mattered whether dimochka's vote was serious, then FoSed me because, in response to that post, I also implied that it mattered whether dimochka's vote was serious. The only explanation I can come up with is you're scum who drew too much attention to yourself, then panicked and tried a bit too hard to divert that attention elsewhere.

FoS bessie

Also, since apparently I didn't do this yet,

Unvote

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:34 pm UTC

EBWOP: I just reread moody's post, and he has three possible explanations of bessie's behavior, where I only had one:
moody7277 wrote:Possible conclusions:
1. Staged confrontation (which would have to have been impromptu at this point) for the purpose of distancing between scum!dim and scum!bessie.
2. As proposed by town!dim, nitpicking by scum!bessie in order to generate enough outrage for a mislynch.
3. All too typical over-reaction among townies. As of right now, I'd give this option the most weight.

SirGabriel wrote:The only explanation I can come up with is you're scum who drew too much attention to yourself, then panicked and tried a bit too hard to divert that attention elsewhere.

I'll admit that all three of his conclusions are possible, but I still think mine (roughly equivalent to moody's option 2) is the most likely.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby dimochka » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:48 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@dimochka: you mentioned you have some thoughts about the reactions to your joke. Since you don't plan to continue it, would you mind sharing those thoughts with us?

I'll respond tonight. Worked till midnight yesterday on a big deliverable to our CEO (which went very well). Today should be done at 6:30pm, so will have plenty of time.

I'm also hoping to catch up on flavor, but I tentatively have no problem with the suggestion of "black ajah = mafia".
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:30 pm UTC

Request mod-prod on Diemo.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:51 am UTC

Another possibility for bessie - she's a townie trying to stir things up hoping to get us information we can use to make an informed D1 lynch.

bessie wrote:
JudeMorrigan wrote:Beyond that, I'm generally concerned with the specificity of somewhat unusual roles in Bessie's setup speculation.
How about sharing your setup speculation?

Had I made any setup speculation early, it would have been something like 7-3-1-1 with a sk purely because it seems like most games here have one and maybe some sort of a survivor-ish role. That may be scum heavy - I don't really have a good feel for what makes a balanced game numbers-wise.

Now though? I feel like I have to at least consider the possibility that you have a reason for thinking there might be a recruiter. That said, if there's a non-town recruiter, I feel like encouraging town to think about the possibility is pro-town behavior. So I'm not inclined to believe that you yourself are a recruiter. And yes, I know that that could turn into a rabbit hole of wine very quickly. But that's where my mind is right now.

I would also very much like to hear from Diemo.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:01 am UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:I feel like I have to at least consider the possibility that you have a reason for thinking there might be a recruiter.

The mod warned us multiple times about the possibility of a recruiter.

In the signup thread:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Bastardry: May include victory condition changes due to player actions. Probably none other.


In the OP:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Setup rules:
2. Bastardry: May include alignment or win-condition changing roles.


That doesn't necessarily mean there is such a role in the game, but I think it's likely that there is.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:11 am UTC

Um, possibly I need to go read the rules a whole lot more closely than I had. Sorry!

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby bessie » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:02 am UTC

This will be quick. My husband has a gig tonight, but I’ll try to read and respond to the rest of today’s content tonight if I don’t get home too late.

moody7277 wrote:Her first part looks like she's getting into Poe's law territory; either the joke is so obvious you don't need clarification or the lack of clarification makes you take it seriously.
I had to google Poe’s Law and I don’t want TV Tropes to suck up the 20 minutes I have before I need to leave. So I’ll get back to this after I figure out if I’m being dissed. :)

moody7277 wrote:As to the early game scum outing that she links to, these are both related to PM wording gambits that I abhor.
Yes but this isn’t about anyone’s PM. Or even their vote. This is about what qualifies as game content. So moody, do you think that anything posted in the game thread (barring special cases like real life notifications and things posted in spoilers) is fair game for discussion? Or do you think that some things don’t count? Like, should I be able to say “Oh just ignore what I said in my first post, I wasn’t really playing yet”?

moody7277 wrote:I figured that she'd point out some of SDK's work in that area, but maybe she didn't because she doesn't have the same reputation.
I feel uneasy about using other people as examples because I don’t want to misinterpret their intent, or drag them into a game they’re not even playing. I know what I was thinking so I know I can use myself as an example. I never know what SDK is thinking. And yeah, read any of SDK’s games. And no, I don’t know how he does it.

moody7277 wrote:-OMGUS vote from bessie, with some comments that seem to be her trying to get past it.
I’m seriously confused as to why you think this is an OMGUS vote? Did I really not give any previous indication that I was suspicious of dimochka? Did it really appear that the only reason I voted for him is that he voted for me?

Sorry I need to leave now. I’ll get to the rest later.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:27 am UTC

bessie wrote:So moody, do you think that anything posted in the game thread (barring special cases like real life notifications and things posted in spoilers) is fair game for discussion? Or do you think that some things don’t count? Like, should I be able to say “Oh just ignore what I said in my first post, I wasn’t really playing yet”?


What is in the thread is obviously open for discussion. There have been a couple of times in which oblique references to outside information were used to game the game (you were involved in one of these), and the results were something I was not happy with. In the flow of games, there has been a fairly obvious transition from banter/random voting to setup spec and serious discussion of the players. Mostly I consider what is obviously fluff as such and don't figure it in to analysis. Some people do, which brings us to...

bessie wrote:I never know what SDK is thinking. And yeah, read any of SDK’s games. And no, I don’t know how he does it.


SDK's techniques using a player's first post (or even confirmation post) are something to behold. I know my jaw hit the floor when he nailed DJ in the Lego game that way. While I know I can't duplicate the effect for my personal use, I can analyze what it looks like FMPOV.

bessie wrote:I’m seriously confused as to why you think this is an OMGUS vote? Did I really not give any previous indication that I was suspicious of dimochka? Did it really appear that the only reason I voted for him is that he voted for me?


You certainly did build up enough of a background of suspicion against him for your vote. I was just curious as to why you waited until dimochka actually voted you to make your vote. I've normally come to think of any immediate counter-vote as an OMGUS; perhaps I should narrow my definition?
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby mpolo » Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:36 am UTC

No worries about spoilers — the series is old enough that they are near unavoidable and some studies say that spoilers actually help keep interest and tension, paradoxically.

I'm not sure what to read in the bessie-dimochka interaction. I am tending to want to read it as a town-town kerfuffle, but don't want to discard other possibilities, either. But it remains a "background datum" for me.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:35 am UTC

Diemo has been mod-prodded.

Phone-posting so votals will have to wait.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:55 am UTC

My thought process regarding bessie's style:
Spoiler:
- she's going after dimochka hard due to an obvious joke
- I remember that she made a comment about playing aggressively when she didn't fear dying during the night (Secret Santa 2016 - Commuter)
- that is certainly how she played in Dollhouse (Bulletproof)
- so she probably has some form protection again or she could be scum and controlling the NK
- with the baseline established, let's look at he other previous games to see if she played differently
- in the first WoT she was scum, made similar comments though a bit toned down. It's hard to judge though because D1 focused too much on a new player who then later dropped out.
- in Draculafia she subbed in early as Town (Mason). Again her playstyle feels similar though a bit less aggressive than now. However she mentions after the game that she's trying to develop a more aggressive meta.
- in Once Upon a Time she was Town Vigilante, her content was plenty as usual but I didn't get the feel of aggressiveness in it.
Not sure if the latter 2 even apply as they were in 2015 and people change, so won't be looking for older games. One interesting thing I found in that last game:
bessie wrote:Is the militant atheist a real role? I always thought that was a joke because I never understood how you could actually have one in a game.
There was a reply to it but bessie didn't acknowledge that in the thread as it was irrelevant to the game.

Summary: it might be because her playstyle evolved, but the level of her aggressiveness would indicate to me that bessie is not afraid of getting NK-d.
My thought process regarding the actual MA discussion:
Spoiler:
- it is well within dimochka's range to make silly claims as Town (see PyPokemon 2)
- even if it wasn't or if bessie is not aware of that (which probably is the case), that claim is clearly intended to be a joke and not an actual one
- therefore bessie's first 2 points in her FoS are moot and the third is also lessened by a large degree (it could very well be scum joking but not with the intention of controlling the discussion)
- I think dimochka's vote is premature, based on one aspect on how scum would play and not considering bessie's meta
- I think bessie's vote in this situation is never OMGUS
- However this is clearly over the top:
bessie wrote:There is no militant atheist in the game. dimochka’s vote did not show up in the votals.
At that point of the game D1 (and thereby the game itself) didn't even start, so any vote made during confimation phase would definitely not be included in the votals. To make a point specifically about that seems like overkill and not willing to let go.

Summary: I think bessie's reaction is too much to be completely honest especially in light of her comment in the previous spoiler about MA, though dimochka's early vote on her didn't help either.
Overall at this point I think the likelihood is that bessie is scum.

Vote: bessie

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:25 pm UTC

I'm in the wrong timezone again.

SirGabriel wrote:The mod warned us multiple times about the possibility of a recruiter.

That doesn't necessarily mean there is such a role in the game, but I think it's likely that there is.
First WoT had the same rules and there was no recruitment, no other alignment change, only the indie's win-con changed after they were let out of prison.

mpolo wrote:I'm not sure what to read in the bessie-dimochka interaction. ... But it remains a "background datum" for me.
So what would you like to talk about instead? Apart from some setup-speculation there hasn't been a lot going on.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby kalira » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:11 pm UTC

You look up to see a novice in white as she turns the corner away from you. She looks to be on a mission from the Creator himself and appears to take no notice of your gathering -- you surmise that some Aes Sedai has sent her to look for a book and put the fear of the Mistress of Novices into her. But... you could swear that her hair was green and in buns that almost look like ears on top of her head. What a strange child. You turn back to the others in your group and notice a piece of paper with the tallied votes.

Votals:
bessie (2) - dimochka, Sabrar
dimochka (1) - bessie

Not voting: everyone else
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby bessie » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:59 pm UTC

I don’t have time for a proper post right now, but I do want to respond to this one comment because it has me pissed.
Sabrar wrote:- I remember that she made a comment about playing aggressively when she didn't fear dying during the night (Secret Santa 2016 - Commuter)

First of all, that’s not what I said. This is what I said.
bessie wrote: I’ve discovered that I can be quite an ass when I’m not worried about dying.

From the rest of your post, it looks like you interpreted my remark as “bessie was not worried about dying during the night because she was immune to the NK”. I think it’s wrong of you to misquote something I said, attach your interpretation of the intent of the remark, and then present it as something I said. You did label the spoiler as your thought process, but you should either say “this is what I think bessie meant” or just label it as your speculation.

Or you could just ask me what I meant. You would have gotten the truthful response as to why I didn’t fear dying in that game. Besides the reason you gave, there were two more.
1. My power was not something that was going to help town catch scum. I didn’t care if I was NKed. Better me than a watcher or cop.
2. My win condition did not require me to be alive at the end of the game. I said this in the game thread. Here. Why didn't you point that out too when you were building your case against me?

And if any of you think this is on overreaction on my part, and I am deliberately trying to cause a distraction, I think you need to read the post 7 posts above this one. The one where I said I was cautious about using other people as examples because I don’t want to misinterpret their intent. And then it happened to me.


And since I'm here anyway:

If dimochka's vote in his first post had been a vote for a player in this game, would it have shown up in the votals?

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:13 pm UTC

@bessie: I sincerely apologize if you took this as a personal attack. I'll try to reply in detail this evening but might only get to it tomorrow. I think you are overreacting a bit but it's strictly my pov and obviously I have no idea how you feel about this.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby JudeMorrigan » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:14 pm UTC

Ok, this will likely be my last post until Saturday evening (US central time), so I thought I'd post a town-to-scum list. Unfortunately, I don't feel like I have any truly strong scum leads yet, so there's a fair amount of, "eh, they look ok, I guess, maybe?" But this is where my mind is right now:


Town:
1. JudeMorrigan
Duh

2. SirGabriel
3. moody
4. Sabrar

These three form a tier for me. I feel like SirGabriel's smacking me with the clue stick about the content of the rules I'd skimmed over was on point. I feel like all three have been trying to make real analysis of the bessie-dim interactions and even if I don't know that I entirely agree with their conclusions, I approve of scumhunting. I consider it extremely unlikely that my D1 vote will go to any of these three.

5. mpolo

Reads townie to me, but I feel like I have less to go on that with the previous three.

6. bessie
7. dimochka

Yeah, I've got bessie middle of the pack. The arguments against her are cogent and reasoned, but dagnabbit, their interactions read town-on-town to me. I can't ignore the more experienced players reads, but for now I'm going with my gut.

8. Gopher of Pern
9. matt96

These two are complete "mwrr, I have no idea". The ordering for these two was completely arbitrary.

10. ahippo

Now, given the mistakes I've made, I can't hold his screwing up the number of ajahs against him. But I still can't shake the feeling that he's Elaida. He seems awfully confident she's in the game. This may be confirmation bias, but his "I'm not expecting to be much of a leader" jumped out at me during my reread as potentially being signaling to his factionmate(s). I still think that if I'm right about this that he wouldn't be black ajah. So I'm very much hoping I have more decisive reads in that direction after my Saturday reread.

11. carlington

Carlington's really more of an Incomplete than anything else. He had warned us that he'd be absent the first couple of rl days. Looking forward to hearing from you!

12. diemo

Hope to hear from him too.

In summary, I know that wasn't the single most useful list that's ever been made. But since I'm reading bessie-dim's interactions as town-on-town, and the reactions to that kerfluffle have seemed reasonable to me ... moving some people onto my "likely won't vote for on D1" list is really the most productive thing I feel like I've been able to accomplish.

spoiler for OT explanation of what I'm going to be up to the next couple of day:
Spoiler:
I have a ballroom dancing competition tomorrow! It's the first one I've done in nearly a year and I'm terribly excited. Even though I'm moving up a level and am going to get my butt handed to me by at least some of my competitors. :-)

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:28 pm UTC

@bessie: please find below my reasons for making those assumptions (spoilered due to ooc nature)

Spoiler:
Where I'm coming from: to me actually playing the game is way more important than winning. I would much prefer losing D5 than get killed N1 or N2, even if we win at the end. Therefore the idea that "I'm not afraid of dying because it's better for Town if I die instead of a power-role" would very rarely cross my mind. Objectively it's clear that it's a better outcome but that doesn't mean I have to like it. The "I don't have to be alive to win the game" argument also didn't enter into my thought-process for precisely the same reasons.
It wasn't a conscious choice on my part not to mention your points, it simply didn't occur to me to even ask about them.

Regarding the misquote: when I checked your exact words I realized that I slightly misremembered them, but I didn't want to judge whether you were an ass in a previous game as that could have led to bigger resentments. To me the difference was not that significant and I didn't think that it would offend you to this degree.

Please believe me when I say that it wasn't a deliberate attempt on my part to get you angry. I don't quite understand why it would make you pissed but I respect your preferences and will try to avoid doing it again.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:55 pm UTC

bessie wrote:If dimochka's vote in his first post had been a vote for a player in this game, would it have shown up in the votals?
I did not consider the game to start until the D1 post. As such any votes before then were ignored.

Also, in case anyone missed it, I just wanted to highlight a point that is different compared to the previous Wheel of Time game, namely point 6 under the flavour section, which states that most or all players have made up character names.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby ahippo » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:49 am UTC

I'm having a hard time convincing myself of anything regarding who's acting scummy and who's not. I was never a good scum-hunter in the first place so I doubt that's gonna change in my first game after having been out of the game for ... a year and a half? So instead I'm gonna send out some questions to generate something I think I can weigh in on or learn from.

  • What scum-hunting strategies have worked for you in the past?
  • Do you generally prefer to act based on assumptions then change if your assumptions prove wrong, or wait until you're confident?
  • When do you think it's appropriate for a townie to claim their role?

    And just for fun, (any answer to this last question I don't consider to be related to anything in game)
  • If you were an Aes Sedai, which Ajah would you pick?

I think it's only fair for me to answer my own questions first.

  • If I had any good examples of my own, I wouldn't be asking this question.
  • I would rather wait until I'm confident.
  • In closed setups, unless one trustworthy claim can lead to a win or prevent a loss, it's usually better to hold onto your role until you're dead.
  • Yellow Ajah. I've been playing healers for years.

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SirGabriel
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby SirGabriel » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:48 am UTC

ahippo wrote:What scum-hunting strategies have worked for you in the past?

I don't really have a good scum-hunting strategy. The only time I can recall being even semi-successful in scum hunting without someone else first pointing out the scummy behavior was in PYPokémon, and that was just because of a combination of flavor knowledge and the particular PYP format of that game (and even then, I didn't actually find scum, just lying town).
ahippo wrote:Do you generally prefer to act based on assumptions then change if your assumptions prove wrong, or wait until you're confident?

If I waited until I was confident, I would hardly ever put a serious vote down.
ahippo wrote:When do you think it's appropriate for a townie to claim their role?

I don't think there's a general rule, it depends a lot on what you know and what power you have.
ahippo wrote:If you were an Aes Sedai, which Ajah would you pick?

Purple. I don't even know if that's an option, but it was the first color that came to mind.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:32 am UTC

Apparently the Green Ajah is doing polling for us. Somewhat sketchy town -> scum list.

ahippo- multiple faction on role spec, unserious on the dimochka event, very deep into flavor analysis, otherwise not getting into player analysis. medium town

JudeMorrigan- reaction to dimochka event, picks up mistake in ahippo's Ajah count, believes scum among lurkers. reaction to bessie's recruiter spec, town->scum (kind of) list that looks to line up with mine. medium town

SirGabriel- rv Sabrar, reaction to bessie in a suspicious direction including FoS, specualtion in favor of recruiter being in game, answers to ahippo. medium town

Sabrar- votes dim from the event, but pays particular attention to bessie. asks dim about reactions he's seeing, GoP about his question to bessie, analysis of bessie's reaction follwed by a vote on her. slight to medium town.

mpolo- once again mpolo seems to be more versed in the flavor than average. worked for us in Dracula, we'll see if were as lucky here. short line in post charitable to bessie later expanded to town-town on dim and bessie, spec about Amrylin Seat.
slight town.

dimochka- militant atheist claim in confirmation post which started the event. votes bessie off her reaction, and wants to get past it. not much after that. neutral to slight town

Gopher of Pern- RV mpolo, starts Balck Ajah=mafia hypothesis, twigged on bessie's cult/recruiter spec. neutral to slight town

matt96- only post is flavor spec. neutral

bessie- setup spec with a big town faction, couple of indep, then into the dimochka event for most of the next few posts which I previously discussed. Other topics were comparing setup spec with ahippo and recruiter possibility with Sabrar. Also responds to Sabrar's vote. between her and dim, I have her as slightly more likely to be scum, but that's still 35-40%.

Carlington- outside issues, anti-cult attitude, Black Ajah=mafia. insufficient data.

Diemo- no posts
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby bessie » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:12 am UTC

All right, where did I leave off?
SirGabriel wrote:You implied that it mattered whether dimochka's vote was serious, then FoSed me because, in response to that post, I also implied that it mattered whether dimochka's vote was serious. The only explanation I can come up with is you're scum who drew too much attention to yourself, then panicked and tried a bit too hard to divert that attention elsewhere.
You claimed it was a joke. I said well how can you be sure when dimochka hadn’t even posted yet. And I think that I’ve made it clear this is not about the vote or the seriousness of it.

And yeah, it appears I’ve been exceptionally good at diverting attention away from myself this game.

moody7277 wrote:What is in the thread is obviously open for discussion. There have been a couple of times in which oblique references to outside information were used to game the game (you were involved in one of these), and the results were something I was not happy with.

I honestly don’t know what game you’re referring to here, or when I may have wrongly used outside information. Because I do try not to drag stuff that happened in other games into the current one, unless it’s posted as a response to something someone else brought up. Or unless it’s about me specifically. If I do it to other players it’s usually a general meta read, like so-and-so likes to use a lot of big words as town! Or so-and-so is lurky as scum! I mean, I really try not to say stuff like “well, in this specific game this specific player voted in this specific way, and they were scum, so they’re obviously scum now” as a sole basis for a judgement. Oh wait is this about jimbob and Secret Santa? Ok I did it there. Anyway, this is turning into a distraction so I’ll drop it but moody, if you want to discuss this after the game is over, I’d really like to know if you think I may have skirted the rules, because that’s not the type of player I’m trying to be.

I may as well go here next:
bessie wrote:
moody7277 wrote:Her first part looks like she's getting into Poe's law territory; either the joke is so obvious you don't need clarification or the lack of clarification makes you take it seriously.
I had to google Poe’s Law and I don’t want TV Tropes to suck up the 20 minutes I have before I need to leave. So I’ll get back to this after I figure out if I’m being dissed. :)
I got sucked into the TV Tropes rabbit hole, and I think you may have been uncomfortably on the mark about me. Because I’m not still not sure if you were joking, irritated, inferring I was scum, inferring I was dense, being sarcastic, being serious, etc. (and bessie earns yet another x on the DSM checklist….)

moody7277 wrote: I was just curious as to why you waited until dimochka actually voted you to make your vote. I've normally come to think of any immediate counter-vote as an OMGUS; perhaps I should narrow my definition?
Because I didn’t want to end the random voting stage before everyone had a chance to post. I never joke vote, but others enjoy it. And it does give us some content to analyze later.


@Sabrar
Spoiler:
I’m sorry. I had no right to say that the way I did. It was an appalling display of bad form on my part. This is a game, and we’re all here to have fun. I could have made my point without being so rude. And you can point out if I’m being an ass! I will probably even agree with you. What I don’t like is being misquoted or having my words misinterpreted and used against me. I’m good with having my actual words and intent used against me.

Now that that’s out of the way, let me see what else I need to address in Sabrar’s post.

Sabrar wrote:- she's going after dimochka hard due to an obvious joke
What I find obvious is obviously not so obvious.

Sabrar wrote:One interesting thing I found in that last game:
bessie wrote:Is the militant atheist a real role? I always thought that was a joke because I never understood how you could actually have one in a game.
There was a reply to it but bessie didn't acknowledge that in the thread as it was irrelevant to the game.
Oh. What I got from SPACKlick’s and Vytron’s replies was that it was a real role, and they had played games that either contained this role, or where this role was common enough to be seriously considered as being in the game. And we have had more less-common roles around here lately.

Sabrar wrote:- However this is clearly over the top:
bessie wrote:There is no militant atheist in the game. dimochka’s vote did not show up in the votals.
At that point of the game D1 (and thereby the game itself) didn't even start, so any vote made during confimation phase would definitely not be included in the votals. To make a point specifically about that seems like overkill and not willing to let go.
You have me there. I thought dimochka’s vote was not counted because it was not valid (as in content not timing), which may still be the case. But now jimbob’s confirmed that it wouldn’t get counted anyway because he didn’t count votes made during the confirmation phase. And so goes part of my argument for what counts as game content.

JudeMorrigan, I’m not following your case on ahippo but I’m planning on doing a little more flavor research before you post again, and maybe I will have a relevant question for you (and good luck at your competition tomorrow!).

And…I’ve been typing for two hours. I’ll pick up with ahippo’s post in a little while.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:54 am UTC

@bessie:
Spoiler:
No hard feelings. I fully agree that the goal is to have fun and I apologize if my comments caused you distress in any way.

ahippo wrote:What scum-hunting strategies have worked for you in the past?
The only thing that reliably worked for me was vote-analysis and even that is situational.
ahippo wrote:Do you generally prefer to act based on assumptions then change if your assumptions prove wrong, or wait until you're confident?
Act first, I'm impatient and can't sit around for long doing nothing.
ahippo wrote:When do you think it's appropriate for a townie to claim their role?
Too situation-dependent to answer in a few sentences. General idea is that claiming should help Town more than it helps scum.
ahippo wrote:If you were an Aes Sedai, which Ajah would you pick?
Based on wiki description each of them has aspects that I don't like, however if I had to choose then it would be White due to their rational approach to things.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:05 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Diemo has been mod-prodded.
When can we expect mod-action to occur? If replacement is needed it would be great if they could still contribute D1.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:32 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Diemo has been mod-prodded.
When can we expect mod-action to occur? If replacement is needed it would be great if they could still contribute D1.
Diemo has 24 hours or until a replacement can be found, whichever is later to post content. If I can't find a willing replacement by day end, he will be mod-killed.

As a reminder, this game is hopefully going to be pseudo-nightless, so please send in your actions before deadline.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Diemo » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:05 am UTC

Sorry, I am here. Just a little distracted by work.

First thing that I have noticed is that there is a lot of people are picking on dimochka. Three people voting him for a joke vote at the start? Seems like a lot.

It seems likely to me that the Black Ajah is the mafia, as they are the bad guys in the books. This isn't necessarily the case though, as there is an argument that the Red Ajah are the mafia.

Book spoilers (potentially later than book 4/5, I can't remember)
Spoiler:
The Red Ajah were the ones who disposed of Suain Sanche

Definitely from like book 9 or so
Spoiler:
The leader of the red Ajah turned out to also be the leader of the Black


dimochka wrote:I don't plan to bring up the militant atheist idea again

But I like lynching the mod. (I played a game once where we insisted on lynching the mod despite the mod telling us that lynching him was impossible - good times :) )

I would be rather surprised if the Amyrlin is in the game - is seems more likely that she is our overall overlord - a NPC if you will. I would expect for Nyneave, Elene? and Egwene to be around (I believe that are in the White tower at the moment, though I could easily be wrong). Other than that I think that we will be relatively random Aes Sedai.

I can also see an argument for any Ajah - we are in the seat of the Aes Sedai power so there are plenty of sisters of all the Ajahs around.

I'll try to add some more after work.
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Sabrar
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:23 am UTC

@Diemo: did you also notice that 2 of the 3 votes on dimochka were just random votes and have been rescinded? What is your opinion on bessie? Can we expect that you will be able to contribute regularly from now on?

@dimochka: any chance you can follow up on this today?

@Gopher of Pern: could you reply to this? Also do you have any new ideas?

@JudeMorrigan, moody7277: why did you put the two players with too little content to analyze at the bottom of your list if it represents town-to-scum ordering? Shouldn't they be in the middle of the pack as 'neutral'?

Spoiler:
Diemo wrote:
dimochka wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:
JudeMorrigan wrote:
moody7277 wrote:

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby mpolo » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:24 am UTC

Ahippo's questions:

What scum-hunting strategies have worked for you in the past?
Primarily post analysis. Sometimes flavor arguments have been very effective as well.

Do you generally prefer to act based on assumptions then change if your assumptions prove wrong, or wait until you're confident?
Prefer to act with some confidence. I seldom cast a really early vote.

When do you think it's appropriate for a townie to claim their role?
If a good power role and in danger, nearly always. Otherwise, only when there is enough information given to town to be useful (a cop with a scum result, tracker who tracked someone to a dead person, watcher who saw one person visit the person who died). Cops with only town results should wait. At some point in late game, a general claim would be appropriate in some games.

And just for fun, (any answer to this last question I don't consider to be related to anything in game)
If you were an Aes Sedai, which Ajah would you pick?
As a male, I could only be Asaman (sp?), but I would most likely be yellow, white or brown.

I had something else typed up and Internet went down. Now I have class again, but I'm gonna hit post and hope it goes through!
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:26 pm UTC

Request gentle prod on Carlington

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:58 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:why did you put the two players with too little content to analyze at the bottom of your list if it represents town-to-scum ordering? Shouldn't they be in the middle of the pack as 'neutral'?


For my part, it's because lack of data means that you can't even say neutral about someone who hasn't posted. There's also the whole scum lurker paradigm that has been accepted and works just enough to keep going. Diemo's post is interesting because he included the RV against dim at the start as seemingly serious, and he gives his alternate theory about the Red Ajah. With that, I think I'd put him just below matt on my list.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby kalira » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:21 pm UTC

Carlington has been lightly stroked, er... umm...
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D1)

Postby dimochka » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:35 pm UTC

OK HI SORRY. A few responses:
Sabrar wrote:- I think dimochka's vote is premature, based on one aspect on how scum would play and not considering bessie's meta

Yes, to be fair, i did not consider meta at all. what i did consider was a double FoS and this:
bessie wrote:I don’t random vote, when I place a vote it will be serious. It seems a little too early to place a serious vote, so instead I will do this:

FoS dimochka

So as far as i'm concerned, her FoS may as well be a vote for something I clearly meant as a joke, and her "strengthening" the FoS was especially surprising to me and seemed like scum setting up a later vote. So I decided to call her bluff while voting for someone I simply don't see as town / good ajah / whatever town is.

@Jimbob - I apologize for causing a mess. didn't mean it.

Now back to game. I just re-read everyone's posts. ahippo stands out to me for a couple of reasons: (1) that mishap with the ajah's that jude pointed to, (2) discussion re:scumhunting that in my opinion is adding no value yet makes it seem like he has more content. May not be on purpose but still.

Also - not sure about jude's list. here's what it looks like to me: jude himself, 3 people who discussed me/bessie, one person who discussed mostly flavor, me and bessie, two people you have no opinion on (so that makes everyone before them town?), the one person who didn't mention the ajah distribution, and then two people with no real content which shouldn't even really be in there. so this list is really not helpful.

moody seems either neutral or town. nothing stands out. mostly mentioning him because he was the first one to try to do some me vs. bessie analysis.

sirg is townish in my book. i'm usually wary of people defending me, especially d1, but he has put considerably more thought into it than I have.

more later today. can also post my spoilered re-read, as i do some games.

please feel free to field questions my way, i'll have a town-scum list next post.
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