Diablo Mafia - Day 6 (The End)

[LaserGuy]

Any tips for me? Suggestions / recommendations for how I could improve my modding / balancing / anything else? I'd like to run something again in a couple of months.

Overall, I really enjoyed this game and how it all played out. The flavor was interesting and very well written. I think you did a good job of making sure that the flavor was relevant, but that flavor knowledge as not a particular advantage. As a new player, I found the setup very accessible, and beyond the initial "Oh me yarm I have no idea what to post" moment that I imagine almost everyone gets at the start of their first game, I didn't have any trouble immersing myself in the game. On the whole, everyone was very welcoming and helpful, but I also appreciate that nobody pulled their punches on the new people either

As far as balances goes, I don't think it would have been too unfair if scum had access to a roleblocker or something similar. Our night actions were very limited, and town had a lot of abilities that we just didn't have a counter for, available in duplicates through a bunch of different players. Our recruiting power ended up a lot weaker than it appeared, since it was contingent on correctly identifying the right person, the death of our godfather (who ought to survive longer than average), was tied to our NK that we might want to use in other ways, and our recruit could be stolen by another faction much earlier in the game than we could ever to hope to make use of this power. I think it would be very unlikely that scum would ever get this to connect properly. If the recruiting power is going to be this conditional, maybe it should be tied to some other ability? Eg. if Sabrar was a Rolecop, have it tied to this instead of the NK so he can at least try to recruit every night.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

I've finished reading spoilers, and one thing I definitely am pretty pleased worked was my subtle hint that I was a lover with Znirk (which obviously I wasn't). I was worried that somebody would, assuming I was town, decide I needed to be eliminated, because of my redirection power. I knew that once I made it to D3, I'd not have to worry about Mafia killing me any more, despite my ability's threat.

adnapemit was right, I suspect I have a much higher tendency to want Town to win instead of Scum. That being said, if Znirk and I had survived D2, we might well have teamed up with scum later on, and I would have had zero problem with that.

dimochka, I had good fun playing this game. You did fine with the modding, although the balance was probably a little off, yes, and I was expecting a No Comment regarding my ability, but hey ho.

adnapemit/LaserGuy, who do you think would have been the killer had I sided with you?

I'm also pretty pleased that with the exception of N1 (when I recruited a team-mate, whose death confirmed my alignment), I targeted scum every single night with my ability!

[LaserGuy]

adnapemit/LaserGuy, who do you think would have been the killer had I sided with you?

I have no idea. Even just thinking about it now, I'm going back and forth based on what you might have placed the most emphasis on in your reasoning. My gut feeling is adnapemit would have taken it. We didn't discuss N5 at all though--I don't think either of us expected to kill Madge N4--so I wouldn't be surprised to find that she feels differently.

[adnapemit]

Yeah I would have wanted to keep alternating who did the kill just to make sure we didn't have to find out what "consequences" of having the same person use the night kill were.

[Gopher of Pern]

Good game, and great flavour.

I do agree that it was probably balanced in favour of town. Everyone getting an ability tends to do that. But then, town needed the help of an indy to win the game, but I think most indys, if it comes down to a pure 50/50 choice, would side with town.

I'd play another one of your games dimochka!

[bessie]

Aw, I didn’t find true love with Wirt because RedVex got him first. Other than that, A+ for the flavor.

I think the scum team did a great job, and I’m still impressed with adnapemit’s D1 read on Carlington. I’m also very impressed with our new players, plytho and LaserGuy. plytho has some incredibly good posts, and LaserGuy, I wasn’t reading you as scummy at all. I didn’t have any suspicion of you until your setup discussion on D3. Your interpretation of the setup did not follow what dimochka implied the setup was. Sabrar’s flip confirming your interpretation of how the scum powers were assigned was suspicious.

In any case, you're a very strong, analytical player with an extremely townie meta. Honestly, I'm surprised you aren't a priority target every game.

And… now you know why I never get night killed. I’m a weak scum hunter. I have a talent for guessing the setup, and for getting my player reads wrong.

So LaserGuy performed the N2 mafia kill? Another thing SDK got right. Why am I not surprised?

Was the mafia team was a little weak? They had a possible recruit (Znirk only or jimbob too?). Oh wait, just saw this.

Also - I blocked my would-be killer on the night of my death (as in, me and jimbob didn't double up). Turns out that the butcher is the one player I can't roleblock (hidden mechanic). Alas!

A scum that’s immune to the roleblocker is pretty strong for scum. Oh, and good call Madge.

@jimbob: why did you decide to side with them? You would have had 100% chance to win with scum. We cannot afford to kill you N5, cannot lynch you D6 and N6 theoretically should not have happened with scum being 50% of alive players.

I still don’t agree. 50% scum is not necessarily an automatic win when there are powers. If N6 was jimbob, bessie, adnapemit, LaserGuy, then the best play for scum is to kill jimbob for an automatic win. Knowing that, jimbob should redirect one scum to the other, and if he redirects the kill D7 is 1-1-1, WIFOM, etc.

I think the possibility of secondary win conditions (even though it was only speculation) helped this game a little at the end, because on D5 with everyone’s alignments “confirmed”, it could have been just a technical game of just working out the night actions. Trying to work out if jimbob had a secondary win condition gave everyone a little something to bargain with, and left a little suspense.

It was either Red Vex or Gillian (not both),

Did jimbob know this?

As a new player, I found the setup very accessible, and beyond the initial "Oh me yarm I have no idea what to post" moment that I imagine almost everyone gets at the start of their first game, I didn't have any trouble immersing myself in the game.

Nope, that never goes away. I still get it.

On the whole, everyone was very welcoming and helpful, but I also appreciate that nobody pulled their punches on the new people either

This is one of the reasons I like it here. And you should always feel free to ask a newbie questions! If anyone deliberately lied to a newbie about a general gameplay or game mechanics question, I would sign up for every game that person ever joined and vote for them every day until they are dead.

dimochka, it looks like I’m the only one bothered by this so I am probably the one misinterpreting your intentions, but I think that you misrepresented the setup. Although you never said that the townie power would be discarded and replaced with the scum power after the alignments were randomized, I felt that this was heavily implied, and most of my arguments with LaserGuy (and to a lesser extent with Carlington) were based on my belief that all players would have townie powers. Arguing with LaserGuy about the setup was what made me suspicious of him. Oh well I was wrong. Consolation prize - I got to talk about Sabrar and he couldn’t defend himself.

I’ll try to give some feedback on the setup after dimochka posts his notes.

[Sabrar]

If N6 was jimbob, bessie, adnapemit, LaserGuy, then the best play for scum is to kill jimbob for an automatic win. Knowing that, jimbob should redirect one scum to the other, and if he redirects the kill D7 is 1-1-1, WIFOM, etc.

Best play for scum in that scenario is to withhold the kill N6 and not risk being redirected. D7 is automatic win for scum+jimbob by lynching you.

dimochka, it looks like I’m the only one bothered by this so I am probably the one misinterpreting your intentions, but I think that you misrepresented the setup.

If it's any consolation you're not the only one who was heavily confused about this.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

@bessie, I knew nothing about recruitment mechanics. The only possible hint of any unusual interactions I might have were flavour mentions of wanting to run away with Gillian and a brief mention of Griswold saving my life previously. When dimochka refused to confirm whether flavour was just flavour, I went out expecting some kind if hidden mechanic. I got one, just not the one I suspected.

[plytho]

I’m also very impressed with our new players, plytho and LaserGuy.

Thanks

I'm glad I was town though. I think it's a lot easier to just genuinely try to figure out the puzzle. I'm not sure I'd be good at the deception aspect of being scum. Perhaps I'll find out in the next game.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Perhaps I'll find out in the next game.

Don't bank on it. Some of us are on ridiculously long non-scum streaks. I've only been scum in my first two games, well over a year ago, plus one other game where I switched sides from Town very late due to a hidden mechanic. I have been Town in every other game, apart from a couple of indie appearances.

[Znirk]

[...] And congratulations to the survivors: jimbobmacdoodle and Znirk!

Not that I had much to do with the outcome, but thanks - and Go Team Loner!

[freezeblade]

I’m also very impressed with our new players, plytho and LaserGuy.

Thanks

I'm glad I was town though. I think it's a lot easier to just genuinely try to figure out the puzzle. I'm not sure I'd be good at the deception aspect of being scum. Perhaps I'll find out in the next game.

I'll trade you, my meta is super-scummy owing to the fact that I had over 10 scum games in a row, which was the majority of my games on these forums. It was even mentioned in this game!

[bessie]

Best play for scum in that scenario is to withhold the kill N6 and not risk being redirected. D7 is automatic win for scum+jimbob by lynching you.

Yes but that’s where the possibility of a secondary win condition, and not being sure or even knowing what it is, would have kept this interesting. Does jimbob go for an assured win or gamble on a double win?

If it's any consolation you're not the only one who was heavily confused about this.

Yeah, I really should have figured this out when my initial 15 player setup spec started to fill out and there were no more normal townie roles for scum to have. Znirk’s and Carlington’s flips were what I expected, yours wasn't. Yet I have an odd feeling that my ignorance/stubbornness on this somehow helped my game.

I'll trade you, my meta is super-scummy owing to the fact that I had over 10 scum games in a row, which was the majority of my games on these forums. It was even mentioned in this game!

You had a pretty long run. I think Carlington is catching up though.

Znirk, I’m disappointed I didn’t get an opportunity to play longer with you. Sign up again sometime. And congratulations on the win!

[LaserGuy]

Was the mafia team was a little weak? They had a possible recruit (Znirk only or jimbob too?). Oh wait, just saw this.

Well, we were quite a bit weaker than the startup spec you had posted and facing a stronger town.

According to what dimochka said in Gojoe, we could only recruit Znirk, and adnapemit had to be dead before it would work. jimbob could go with you (switching to town), Znirk, or Carlington. I'm not sure we could steal Znirk away from jimbob or not (not that we would have bothered targeting a claimed survivor that late in the game anyway).

I still don’t agree. 50% scum is not necessarily an automatic win when there are powers. If N6 was jimbob, bessie, adnapemit, LaserGuy, then the best play for scum is to kill jimbob for an automatic win. Knowing that, jimbob should redirect one scum to the other, and if he redirects the kill D7 is 1-1-1, WIFOM, etc.

jimbob would be better off just redirecting one scum to town in this situation if he were worried we'd try to screw him over. He also apparently had an unclaimed one-shot bulletproof that he presumably could have used on N6 to prevent a kill as well. He was basically unkillable via the NK after the first few nights with the combination of powers he had.

[dimochka]

I've got most of the setup in here. If anything is missing let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1489899269

[dimochka]

dimochka, it looks like I’m the only one bothered by this so I am probably the one misinterpreting your intentions, but I think that you misrepresented the setup. Although you never said that the townie power would be discarded and replaced with the scum power after the alignments were randomized, I felt that this was heavily implied, and most of my arguments with LaserGuy (and to a lesser extent with Carlington) were based on my belief that all players would have townie powers. Arguing with LaserGuy about the setup was what made me suspicious of him. Oh well I was wrong. Consolation prize - I got to talk about Sabrar and he couldn’t defend himself.

Bessie - please either post here or PM me directly once you have a chance to go through the setup, and let me know your concerns. Any thoughts are welcome. No rush at all, and thanks!

[mpolo]

Glad that my not being around didn't ruin town's chances!