The Dark Tower - Mission failure

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jimbobmacdoodle
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:49 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:SDK is doing his usual prod people to try to get reactions routine, which is why he jumped on you. YOLOSWAG and FrozenFlame I don't know well enough, but I'd guess the same motive lies behind at least the latter's vote as well.

Why are you answering questions that weren't directed at you? Aren't you interested in seeing their answers? You know, so you can get a read on them?
They should still answer them, They might have a different reason to my guess, and you already had a chance to do so before I posted. I was putting my reads on their play so far, minimal as they are. Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:01 pm UTC

Didn't feel like it.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:00 pm UTC

I am a master of the arts of Mafia. If I appear scummy then it was intentional, if I appear to be town it's meaningless. You should probably Lynch me D3 to be safe, unless SDK gets a good read on me, that guy's pretty good.

Vote: Plytho

For taking a joke vote too seriously.

P.S. Totes flavor blind.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:09 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Vote dimochka.

Ok, and? At least ask me something...

Jimbob, thank you for actually trying to make content happen. Also,

Unvote
Vote Jimbob


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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby bessie » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:19 am UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:So yeah, that's really just a long way of asking whether mods here tend to always default to independent roles with the ability to consistently NK in medium sized games like this, or whether they use more non traditional, but less swingy indies?
The most common independents around here are serial killer and survivor. I was the serial killer in one game and I only needed three kills to win, but it was a slightly larger game. I have also seen an even night serial killer.

FrozenFlame wrote:Though this is definitely some key info to be reminding everyone of. Love mods who have the confidence in their setup's robustness to rule out certain roles. Confirming absence of converters is huge strategically. Though if that means we have a jester instead I'll be decidedly triggered. I'd take cults in every game I played in I got a guarantee of no jester in each and every game...
Alignment changing roles tend to be unpopular and are considered bastard by many, and a mod would be expected to advertise the game as such. I agree with you on the jester, as I do not think it is a very fun mechanic.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
dimochka wrote:For some reason I just think that Sabrar would toss a jester in because he likes that role, but I could be completely off base here.
This matches my thinking except that there has been no jester in Sabrar's previous games. On the other hand I don't see why he wouldn't change the setup for this game to add one.
Where did you two get the idea that Sabrar likes jesters? He must have mentioned it in a game I didn’t play, because I don’t remember this at all. And jimbob, what do you mean by “change the setup”? This is a closed setup, and the only public info is that it is power role heavy with standard abilities. Your comment makes me think you know more about the setup than I do. (New/returning players, Sabrar presented his ideas for the setup here in the Gojoe thread when he was designing the game.)

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:FWIW, I think an SK a little unlikely at this point because IIRC, in Dollhouse, Town had all but lost after N1, due to too many deaths. A 9-4 would be entirely reasonable, as it gives Town two mislynches before LYLO (assuming there is one death each night).
I don’t think the serial killer was as much of an issue with Dollhouse Mafia as the town lover pair that was killed N1 (setup was 6-2-1-1). Lover is another role that I do not think is a very fun mechanic.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Hi everyone! Four votes on D1? I didn't realize I was so intimidating.

YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me? jimbob, IGMEOY for keeping your joke vote on me after a wagon formed around it.
*Shrug*. I was interested to see how you reacted before removing my vote after others piled on. If you'd been at L-1, it might have been a different matter, but at L-3 votes, why are you bothered by me leaving my vote on?
What makes you think LaserGuy was bothered? He seemed rather composed for a newbie with 4 votes on page 1, which I find interesting, but not as interesting as your response.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Everybody's general belief (including my own) about SKs being the norm led me to look back at the past few "traditional" games to double check, and I see Serial Killers in Diablo, MMM2, Secret Santa 2016, and Impromptu Mafia, but not in Wheel of Time 2, or Trial of the Pariahs, the latter modded by Sabrar, so from a small sample size, an SK appears to be slightly more likely than not. As I think I said in Diablo though, there's not much point in worrying about it now until we see the night results.
Hmm, you think a serial killer is likely, but we shouldn’t worry about it? I harassed Carlington a lot in Diablo for downplaying the threat of a serial killer. And he was the serial killer. That reminds me…

Carlington, are you going to post?

SDK, BoomFrog, and dimochka, are those votes serious?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:15 am UTC

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
dimochka wrote:For some reason I just think that Sabrar would toss a jester in because he likes that role, but I could be completely off base here.
This matches my thinking except that there has been no jester in Sabrar's previous games. On the other hand I don't see why he wouldn't change the setup for this game to add one.
Where did you two get the idea that Sabrar likes jesters? He must have mentioned it in a game I didn’t play, because I don’t remember this at all. And jimbob, what do you mean by “change the setup”? This is a closed setup, and the only public info is that it is power role heavy with standard abilities. Your comment makes me think you know more about the setup than I do. (New/returning players, Sabrar presented his ideas for the setup here in the Gojoe thread when he was designing the game.)

What I meant is someone, who I thought may be Sabrar, mentioned jester a number of times in game as well as out of game. That was my "I might be completely off base" part - it could've been someone else entirely. I have no information about a potential jester, and I don't plan to claim to be one.

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:FWIW, I think an SK a little unlikely at this point because IIRC, in Dollhouse, Town had all but lost after N1, due to too many deaths. A 9-4 would be entirely reasonable, as it gives Town two mislynches before LYLO (assuming there is one death each night).
I don’t think the serial killer was as much of an issue with Dollhouse Mafia as the town lover pair that was killed N1 (setup was 6-2-1-1). Lover is another role that I do not think is a very fun mechanic.

Don't remind me... I made a big mess and then got sick and Madge had to deal with it.

bessie wrote:SDK, BoomFrog, and dimochka, are those votes serious?

Mine is not. The next one will probably be though.
Unvote
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:31 am UTC

Every vote I make is serious. Anything less would dilute the value of my actions. Suspicion level of Domichka is up also. That "joke" vote was both unfounded and unfunny and given up too quickly. If I had a second vote I'd vote for him as well.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:40 am UTC

Thanks for the welcome Bessie, I remember you and Shakespeare as well. Fun game.

For whoever asked, I am male. An abductor is an SK variant where instead of killing players he removes them from the game. If he dies, the abducted players return.

I'd laugh if this was used in a future game in light of it being introduced to the meta here.

vote dimochka

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby SDK » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:39 am UTC

Abductor's a cool idea. I like it, though broadcasting which kills the serial killer performed could make things a bit tricky (since I'm assuming their targets don't flip when abducted). Easy enough to balance against though.

@bessie: My vote is serious.

@dimochka: I'll grill you up tomorrow.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:43 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Hi everyone! Four votes on D1? I didn't realize I was so intimidating.

YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me? jimbob, IGMEOY for keeping your joke vote on me after a wagon formed around it.


*Shrug*. I was interested to see how you reacted before removing my vote after others piled on. If you'd been at L-1, it might have been a different matter, but at L-3 votes, why are you bothered by me leaving my vote on?

SDK is doing his usual prod people to try to get reactions routine, which is why he jumped on you. YOLOSWAG and FrozenFlame I don't know well enough, but I'd guess the same motive lies behind at least the latter's vote as well.


You didn't seem the least bit interested or curious about the fact that a four-person wagon formed around your random vote almost instantly, despite the fact that isn't the usual meta for these boards. I'm still trying to decide what to make of your subsequent reaction. You *shrug*, but then go on to defend the entire wagon unprompted, which seems like a bit of an overreaction. Now, you've read my reaction, yet your vote is still there.

SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?


Didn't feel like it.


So, active lurking? IGMEOY too.

bessie wrote:Alignment changing roles tend to be unpopular and are considered bastard by many, and a mod would be expected to advertise the game as such. I agree with you on the jester, as I do not think it is a very fun mechanic.


Have there actually been any games recently that have had a jester? I feel like this is one of those topics that comes up frequently in D1 discussion, but there's almost never one in practice.

dimochka wrote:Vote Jimbob

Because if you have content while we don't, you must know something we don't.


I don't understand what you're saying here. Was this meant to be another 'joke' like your PGO comment at the start?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:03 am UTC

Quick phone post to address comments directed by way, but I don't have time to look at them all. I'll try to get back to those I miss later.

@LaserGuy - my initial vote is almost always a semi-random vote. However, I usually place it on people who are newish on the forum to see how they react (see e.g. my prodding of JDU in Diablo). Rarely does it provoke much of a response, but when three others piled on, I thought that it would be a good chance to see how people react to an early wagon. I haven't decided what I think of yours and others'.reactions yet, hence why my vote is still there.

@bessie - I think you are misconstruing my comments about an SK. I'm not saying there isn't one and that we shouldn't try to lynch them at some point, but on D1 I feel like it's too early to be able to reliably identify such a threat.

Regarding Sabrar and jester, he said he'd like to play that role in a previous game (I forget which), hence my assumption that he likes the role.

I realise my setup comments were poorly phrased. What my original thinking was was that the setup would be similar to Dollhouse. The "changing the setup" meant Sabrar modifying that setup significantly. In retrospect, that's pretty obvious anyway, i.e. that this game's setup is likely to be different to Dollhouse.

@SDK - I know you like being enigmatic, but "not feeling like it" isn't a particularly satisfying answer. Refusing to answer questions without a good reason always looks scummy to me. So, I add to my earlier question, what are you hoping to achieve with this line of responses?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby mpolo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:31 am UTC

Jimbob is possibly off -- it "feels" funny. On the other hand, he's an excellent player and could be trying something different. Certainly not something I would be voting in the short term. Of course, on day one, everything is relative, and in the absence of real leads, it can be small feelings that carry the lynch.

I mentioned it in the signup, but just so everyone knows, I am on vacation until Friday evening, so will likely only manage a couple of short chech-ins until the weekend.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:02 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@LaserGuy - my initial vote is almost always a semi-random vote. However, I usually place it on people who are newish on the forum to see how they react (see e.g. my prodding of JDU in Diablo). Rarely does it provoke much of a response, but when three others piled on, I thought that it would be a good chance to see how people react to an early wagon. I haven't decided what I think of yours and others'.reactions yet, hence why my vote is still there.
Why don’t you unvote and make up your mind later?

SDK wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Breaking promises and FoSing me in your first post? Never before has OMGUS been more justified

Unvote: Laserguy

Vote: plytho

Was this vote supposed to be for dimochka?
When your first post includes boasting of extensive mafia experience it would be pretty awkward to make such a silly mistake in your second post. My assumption is that it’s just deliberate D1 prodding. Off course I’d like to hear FrozenFlame’s explanation too.

Unvote
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:12 am UTC

vote: dimochka
Plytho gives me a slight newbie town feel. That is all I have for now, mostly null on the others.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:49 am UTC

plytho wrote:Why don’t you unvote and make up your mind later?
Why should I unvote?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:39 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
plytho wrote:Why don’t you unvote and make up your mind later?
Why should I unvote?
I'm not saying you should unvote. I'm asking why you don't when your reason for voting:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I thought that it would be a good chance to see how people react to an early wagon.
Has been fulfilled.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:29 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
plytho wrote:Why don’t you unvote and make up your mind later?
Why should I unvote?
I'm not saying you should unvote. I'm asking why you don't when your reason for voting:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I thought that it would be a good chance to see how people react to an early wagon.
Has been fulfilled.
The wagon may no longer be so stand-out, but people are still reacting to the vote, so it is still serving a purpose.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:30 pm UTC

EBWOP: That was phrased badly. I meant that the wagon is not present (and people have reacted to it) but there are still reactions to my vote ongoing.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby bessie » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:04 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:An abductor is an SK variant where instead of killing players he removes them from the game. If he dies, the abducted players return.

I'd laugh if this was used in a future game in light of it being introduced to the meta here.
I like it. One downside I can see is that dead players wouldn’t be able to read spoilers in the Gojoe thread, which would suck because I for one really look forward to reading spoilers!

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:EBWOP: That was phrased badly. I meant that the wagon is not present (and people have reacted to it) but there are still reactions to my vote ongoing.
Who's still reacting? Are you waiting for Carlington? You may be waiting a while.
SDK wrote:@bessie: My vote is serious.
That means RVS has been over since page 1. So jimbobmacdoodle, we should now consider your vote serious.

LaserGuy wrote:Have there actually been any games recently that have had a jester? I feel like this is one of those topics that comes up frequently in D1 discussion, but there's almost never one in practice.
From a quick skim of the first page :
heuristically_alone in Impromptu Mafia – won
Djehutynakht in Smalltown Werewolf PYP – won

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - I think you are misconstruing my comments about an SK. I'm not saying there isn't one and that we shouldn't try to lynch them at some point, but on D1 I feel like it's too early to be able to reliably identify such a threat.
I don’t agree with this comment.

Vote: jimbobmacdoodle

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby SDK » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:35 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Vote: Plytho

For taking a joke vote too seriously.

I think plytho is probably town.

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?


Didn't feel like it.


So, active lurking? IGMEOY too.

Active lurking seems a bit of a stretch. Do you actually want a more serious answer, or are you just throwing mud here?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@SDK - I know you like being enigmatic, but "not feeling like it" isn't a particularly satisfying answer. Refusing to answer questions without a good reason always looks scummy to me. So, I add to my earlier question, what are you hoping to achieve with this line of responses?

What I'm looking for is exactly what I'm getting, actually. A bit of discussion on the subject.

mpolo wrote:Jimbob is possibly off -- it "feels" funny. On the other hand, he's an excellent player and could be trying something different. Certainly not something I would be voting in the short term. Of course, on day one, everything is relative, and in the absence of real leads, it can be small feelings that carry the lynch.

Can you quantify that a bit, mpolo? The only off thing I've seen from jimbob so far is his answering questions for others instead of asking them himself.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:vote: dimochka

Why do you think dimochka is scummy? What do you think of jimbob and/or LaserGuy and/or me?

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - I think you are misconstruing my comments about an SK. I'm not saying there isn't one and that we shouldn't try to lynch them at some point, but on D1 I feel like it's too early to be able to reliably identify such a threat.
I don’t agree with this comment.

Do you actually disagree with the logic in general, or are you just so sure that you've caught the SK now that you disagree for this game in particular?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby SDK » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:52 pm UTC

dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

dimochka wrote:FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

dimochka wrote:Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?

Both of these are fine if serious. They're even fine if joking.

What's not fine is his explanations of either.
dimochka wrote:Often D1 votes have little basis other than "I didn't see much content from him/her" or "he/she seems to be active lurking". For that reason, I think it might. I think it's more so that 3rd position that intuitively feels safer for some reason. If anything I'd say it has more merit when there is little contribution than when there is an ample information/claims available.

dimochka wrote:FWIW this is in reference to the Pokemon game two months ago where I claimed PGO in my first D1 post. I was not PGO. and I was town. Does not mean anything regarding my role this game, but figured I'd explain.

Both seem overly cautious and over explained for what they're worth (which is basically nothing). The wishy-washy nature of the first quote and the nervous self-interest of the second ping me like crazy.

dimochka then continues to make joke votes with no substance and continues to not engage the underlying core of the thread.

Cases are so easy when we're only a page in. I think there was a time that I was more sure of a scum read page 2, though I couldn't tell you when.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby mpolo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:17 pm UTC

I think that what seemed unusual on jimbob was a big post about the joke vote, that seemed unnecessarily exculpatory. It's not a big thing, but we're also still early in Day 1.

The problem with jesters around here is that we usually just lynch them and give them their win and get on with the game. <meta>If there were more jester-bombs or jesters that win and end the game, or more realistically, reduce everyone else to a maximal half-win, maybe the role would be interesting.</meta>

The most common neutrals around here are certainly serial killer and survivor. Occasionally a lyncher. Occasionally a bodyguard. Occasionally a jester. Occasionally something more flashy.

If there is a serial killer, I would presume that either (1) town has access to a kill (vigilante) or (2) the mafia is appropriately reduced in size. As either jimbob or SDK said, here on D1, there's not a whole lot of point getting worried about it, since we won't likely be able to differentiate the two types of scum read before the mafia has begun coordinating. (I suppose there are some times that we get the whole mafia on interactions on D1, but those are the exception rather than the rule.)
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:46 pm UTC

Quickly re-reading thread and responding to things I've not yet addressed:

bessie wrote:What makes you think LaserGuy was bothered? He seemed rather composed for a newbie with 4 votes on page 1, which I find interesting, but not as interesting as your response.
I took LaserGuy's IGMEOY as being slightly bothered by my vote and my lack of comment about it following the other votes. This later comment also indicates a degree of concern about my vote:
LaserGuy wrote:Now, you've read my reaction, yet your vote is still there.


bessie wrote:Who's still reacting? Are you waiting for Carlington? You may be waiting a while.
The reactions to the vote have continued to come in, from, for example plytho:
plytho wrote:Why don’t you unvote and make up your mind later?
At this point though, most reactions seem to be more to my responses, so I think it's served it's purpose now however.

bessie, you seem to think I'm a Serial Killer because I am downplaying the likelihood right? What is your opinion on Zyth, who made this comment implying they thought an SK unlikely, I think:
With the numbers of 8/3/1/1, why is it likely that there is an SK in this game? In the worst case scenario: a mislynch and mafia and SK both kill a member of town, we are in mylo on Day 2, that's pretty crazy.
How about FrozenFlame with his comments made about it? Or most recently mpolo?

LaserGuy's comments about my vote are fair, and nothing screams "scum" from them to me.

Unvote
Vote Carlington

for lurking. Nobody strikes me as particularly scummy yet.

I don't agree with SDK's case on dimochka. I regularly over-explain things myself, and that's exactly how these responses feel on reading them currently.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:49 pm UTC

SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

Sorry, nope. Town all the way. But poking the bear(s) on D1 is usually fun.
I do have to agree that, in retrospect, I backed off my last vote for no good reason and as such whatever I tried was a complete waste. However, I planned to post a serious note and got distracted by work.

I think bessie and boomfrog are town. Those are my main reads so far. But I'll have some opinion on everyone later today (or almost everyone, if carlington never posts).
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:48 pm UTC

@SDK I think dimochka is scummy for similar reasons to you, he is over defensive for no good reason and at times, his posts feels like a bunch of fluff that pretends to be content. I'm currently null on jimbob and as for laserguy, he feels... newbie-ish? Very mechanical player, though I can't tell town or scum quite yet. As for you, you're a town lean for matching up to my thought process on dimochka.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:
SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

Sorry, nope. Town all the way. But poking the bear(s) on D1 is usually fun.
I do have to agree that, in retrospect, I backed off my last vote for no good reason and as such whatever I tried was a complete waste. However, I planned to post a serious note and got distracted by work.

I think bessie and boomfrog are town. Those are my main reads so far. But I'll have some opinion on everyone later today (or almost everyone, if carlington never posts).


What has boomfrog done to warrant the town read?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:03 pm UTC

Scratch that, I don't think laserguy is newbieish, I'll take a closer look at this tonight when I have time.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

I agree with SDK's read of plytho. My thoughts on Domichka were already stated (quick unvote was scummy).
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
dimochka wrote:
SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

Sorry, nope. Town all the way. But poking the bear(s) on D1 is usually fun.
I do have to agree that, in retrospect, I backed off my last vote for no good reason and as such whatever I tried was a complete waste. However, I planned to post a serious note and got distracted by work.

I think bessie and boomfrog are town. Those are my main reads so far. But I'll have some opinion on everyone later today (or almost everyone, if carlington never posts).


What has boomfrog done to warrant the town read?

My thoughts exactly.

Unvote

Vote: Domichka
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby bessie » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:31 am UTC

SDK wrote:
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - I think you are misconstruing my comments about an SK. I'm not saying there isn't one and that we shouldn't try to lynch them at some point, but on D1 I feel like it's too early to be able to reliably identify such a threat.
I don’t agree with this comment.

Do you actually disagree with the logic in general, or are you just so sure that you've caught the SK now that you disagree for this game in particular?
I never said I thought jimbob was a serial killer. But I do think he is non-town. His posts read like he is in damage control mode.

And I disagree with his logic in general. And with mpolo here:
mpolo wrote: As either jimbob or SDK said, here on D1, there's not a whole lot of point getting worried about it, since we won't likely be able to differentiate the two types of scum read before the mafia has begun coordinating. (I suppose there are some times that we get the whole mafia on interactions on D1, but those are the exception rather than the rule.)
This game is nightless, so I assume that mafia is already coordinating.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:bessie, you seem to think I'm a Serial Killer because I am downplaying the likelihood right? What is your opinion on Zyth, who made this comment implying they thought an SK unlikely, I think:
With the numbers of 8/3/1/1, why is it likely that there is an SK in this game? In the worst case scenario: a mislynch and mafia and SK both kill a member of town, we are in mylo on Day 2, that's pretty crazy.
How about FrozenFlame with his comments made about it? Or most recently mpolo?
I never said you were a serial killer. Why did you make that link? The jimbob-serial killer link?

And, damage control mode.

Request modprod on Carlington.

Sorry so short, New Puppy has school tonight. More later unless I collapse from exhaustion.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:39 am UTC

Carlington, you were viewing the thread just now, shortly after my previous posts. What are your thoughts on jimbob vs bessie and the ongoing dimochka wagon?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Sabrar » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:32 am UTC

Deadline is in roughly 5 days. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
dimochka - 4 (SDK, #HBC | YOLOSWAG, #HBC | Zyth, BoomFrog)
Carlington - 1 (jimbobmacdoodle)
jimbobmacdoodle - 1 (bessie)
plytho - 1 (FrozenFlame)

Not voting: Carlington, dimochka, Gopher of Pern, LaserGuy, mpolo, plytho

Tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

Carlington has been mod-prodded.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:27 am UTC

Some reads so far...

SDK - I'm still getting a feel for his style of play. Lots of his content looks very townie:
Spoiler:
SDK wrote:
dimochka wrote:FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

You called those votes for LaserGuy jokes. Does this rule of thumb apply to joke votes?

SDK wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Breaking promises and FoSing me in your first post? Never before has OMGUS been more justified

Unvote: Laserguy

Vote: plytho

Was this vote supposed to be for dimochka?

SDK wrote:Why are you answering questions that weren't directed at you? Aren't you interested in seeing their answers? You know, so you can get a read on them?

SDK wrote:Can you quantify that a bit, mpolo? The only off thing I've seen from jimbob so far is his answering questions for others instead of asking them himself.

SDK wrote:Why do you think dimochka is scummy? What do you think of jimbob and/or LaserGuy and/or me?
He's asking good questions, poking and prodding for more information. Which makes the exchange where he refuses to explain his vote stand out:
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me?

SDK wrote:"Yeehaw" didn't convince you?

jimbob wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?

SDK wrote:Didn't feel like it

jimbob wrote:@SDK - I know you like being enigmatic, but "not feeling like it" isn't a particularly satisfying answer. Refusing to answer questions without a good reason always looks scummy to me. So, I add to my earlier question, what are you hoping to achieve with this line of responses?

SDK wrote:What I'm looking for is exactly what I'm getting, actually. A bit of discussion on the subject.

I agree with jimbob here that this doesn't feel townie at all.

jimbob - His early response to my IGMEOY stands out, as does his later response:
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:*Shrug*. I was interested to see how you reacted before removing my vote after others piled on. If you'd been at L-1, it might have been a different matter, but at L-3 votes, why are you bothered by me leaving my vote on?

SDK is doing his usual prod people to try to get reactions routine, which is why he jumped on you. YOLOSWAG and FrozenFlame I don't know well enough, but I'd guess the same motive lies behind at least the latter's vote as well.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:They should still answer them, They might have a different reason to my guess, and you already had a chance to do so before I posted. I was putting my reads on their play so far, minimal as they are.

As I noted earlier, the first part felt needlessly defensive of the wagon. The second part isn't a great defense of the first; it doesn't really feel like a read when there's no relevant content beyond a vote, and considering jimbob hasn't played with YOLO or Frozen before, it seems really strange for him to be making any assumptions at all about their play. This forced him to be overly defensive of his joke vote:
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@LaserGuy - my initial vote is almost always a semi-random vote. However, I usually place it on people who are newish on the forum to see how they react (see e.g. my prodding of JDU in Diablo). Rarely does it provoke much of a response, but when three others piled on, I thought that it would be a good chance to see how people react to an early wagon. I haven't decided what I think of yours and others'.reactions yet, hence why my vote is still there.


Another thing that's been bothering me is that there's been a lot of backtracking and corrections in jimbob's posts:
Spoiler:
Oh phone-posting, how often do you cause me to make mistakes! Sorry guys! That was directed @FrozenFlame!

I realise my setup comments were poorly phrased.

EBWOP: That was phrased badly.

which is a pattern that is just pinging me a bit, though it might be nothing.


dimochka - Probably the most interesting player so far. Lots to unpack here. On setup spec he seems unduly interested in neutrals:
Spoiler:
dimochka wrote: So unless I see otherwise, 8-3-1-1 makes sense to me. And that last 1 might be a jester (just a hunch).

dimochka wrote:For some reason I just think that Sabrar would toss a jester in because he likes that role, but I could be completely off base here.

dimochka wrote:I am pretty certain that there are some kind of independents. SK is almost a given. No clue what the other would be but either survivor or jester IMO. Jesters are indeed annoying.

dimochka wrote:What I meant is someone, who I thought may be Sabrar, mentioned jester a number of times in game as well as out of game. That was my "I might be completely off base" part - it could've been someone else entirely. I have no information about a potential jester, and I don't plan to claim to be one.

None of these comments in isolation seems particularly problematic, but taken together, dimochka seems much more preoccupied with the number and variety of independents than he is with scum. The emphasis on jesters in particular is odd, since survivors and SKs are much more common around here, and the latter in particular are much more dangerous.

There's his strange mention of the PGO:
Spoiler:
dimochka wrote:Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?

dimochka wrote:FWIW this is in reference to the Pokemon game two months ago where I claimed PGO in my first D1 post. I was not PGO. and I was town. Does not mean anything regarding my role this game, but figured I'd explain.

There's only three players who played in the Pokemon game who are also in this game aside from him (jimbob, mpolo and Carlington), and several new players, either to the boards, or to the game itself, who would almost certainly not catch this reference. Making a joke that's almost certain to be seen as WIFOM to half the players in the game is really bizarre.

And his vote/unvote of jimbob:
Spoiler:
dimochka wrote:Vote Jimbob

Because if you have content while we don't, you must know something we don't.

dimochka wrote:Unvote

dimochka wrote:I do have to agree that, in retrospect, I backed off my last vote for no good reason and as such whatever I tried was a complete waste. However, I planned to post a serious note and got distracted by work.

I wouldn't have had any problem with this vote if it was serious, honestly. jimbob's comment that this is response to is shady enough that I can see someone putting a D1 vote on it to see what turns up. I'd be more willing to accept that as townie play. This is basically the same as the PGO thing above... make a statement, then immediately and awkwardly retract it when challenged.

Finally, there's his reads:
Spoiler:
dimochka wrote:I think bessie and boomfrog are town. Those are my main reads so far. But I'll have some opinion on everyone later today (or almost everyone, if carlington never posts).

These reads feel very random to me. BoomFrog had two posts at this point, one of which was introductory, the other was pointing to dimochka himself as scummy. bessie as townie is a very safe read; she has an extremely townie meta and is likely to look town at first blush every game she plays. I find it hard to believe he has no opinions at all about any other player.

That's all I have time for. There's a bunch of players that I'd love to see more content from though. For now, I'll cast my vote.

Vote dimochka

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:39 am UTC

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - I think you are misconstruing my comments about an SK. I'm not saying there isn't one and that we shouldn't try to lynch them at some point, but on D1 I feel like it's too early to be able to reliably identify such a threat.
I don’t agree with this comment.

Vote: jimbobmacdoodle
bessie, I don't know about anybody else, but I at least felt that you not agreeing with the above comment was the justification behind your vote on me. Since my comment was about it being hard to detect SKs D1, my train of thought went somethink like bessie disagrees with my comment, therefore bessie thinks it's easy to identify an SK D1, and voted for me, therefore she thinks I'm a Serial Killer. Sorry that I came to the wrong conclusion.

Dimochka's latest post didn't fill me with confidence. I'm not exactly sure why. I think it's because I find his explanation flimsy at best.

Ninja'ed by LaserGuy. Will look at it later.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:46 am UTC

Laserguy, what are your reads on SDK and jumbob?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Carlington » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:51 pm UTC

What's up, everyone? I'm late, as usual! Wubba lubba dub dub! Hello and welcome to all the new faces, and welcome back to the old ones who are back after spending time away. I hope we have many great games together.

Cutting to the chase, the following spoiler contains a massive/dense infodump which is pre'much just me reading the thread and typing the posts in my own stream-of-consciousness kinda way.

Spoiler:
jimbob rv laserguy, asks bf, zyth, frozenflame for bonafides. flavourblind

plytho also flavourblind, claims newbie

gop claims rusty flavourken. sk spec, it reference (attempt at demonstrating flavour knowledge?) setup spec 8/3/1/1 - all power town, one neutral and one anti indie. warns of low content

zyth hasn't played for a while. claims to be more intuitive. claims flavourblind, low content. disagrees w 8/3/1/1 - worst case is mylo on day 2 which seems extreme (i agree)

yoloswag rv laserguy w reason "yeehaw" (username seems apt). claims flavourblind. 3 mafia ideal for 13 players. asks about meta for 3rd party roles

plytho reply indies common, vote yoloswag for rv adding a 2nd vote

frozenflame claims extensive mafia knowledge (and i'm p. sure i've seen his name on an essay somewhere in mafiascum or mafiawiki, iirc). confused by gop's it reference (betrays lack of flavour knowledge, note this). anti-excessive-indies, thinks that's too swingy (sorry, but it's pretty common to have at least one indie here - frequently a survivor, ime) rv 3rd vote on laserguy(?!*)

sdk some flavourken, rv 4th on laserguy (laser guy, my dude, my buddy, my guy, my pal, did you annoy some deity in a past life?). thinks 8/3/1/1 possible

dimochka doesn't add a 5th rv on laserguy (honestly i'm kinda thankful at this point it was getting out of hand :P). rv plytho. fos frozenflame for 3rd on wagon. flavourblind. 8/3/1/1 could work, depending on reading the mod's mind. weird pgo wine claim (why do this?). hunch for jester

sdk q'ns 3rd on wagon wrt joke votes.

bessie 3 paragraphs welcoming people then one on setup spec. 8/3/1/1 or 8/2/1/1/1 w maf. supporter. sk likely

frozenflame astute, are indies often killing roles? maybe a little heavy on this, could be downplaying sk? not enough yet to get antsy about, bears watching. never more has an omgus been justified @dimochka, but then vote plytho? seems to take a lot from mod conf. no cult, hates jesters (this is meta difference imo, cult is atypical here and considered bastard)

dimochka thinks 3rd on the wagon applies to d1 rvs, since votes don't really get better than that on d1 anyway. jaster hunch based on mod mind reading.

jimbob claims someone else has demonstrated lack of utility in 3rd on wagon. expects indies to be in the vein of sk, survivor. thinks sk unlikely, 9/4 reasonable

dimochka tentatively agrees lack of merit in 3. on wagon

mpolo has flavourken of king but not of dt. claims to be familiar with his role (would i were so lucky!). thinks scum/town will fall along crimson king/roland deschaine lines

sdk asks frozenflame what is an abductor (ohright, frozenflame talked about those before). asks about whether ff meant to vote for dimochka

jimbob flubbed ff and bf into frozenfrog. sdk jokes that jimbob/ff/bf are unlikely scumbuddies (i would have thought the opposite on seeing that tbh)

laserguy questions rv wagonn (i'd do the same). has a bit of flavourken of dt. explains it ref to ff. expects indies. asks ff, yoloswag, zyth for pronouns (this isn't a town/scum thing, just general good egg points in my eyes)

dimochka explains pgo joke from pypoke mafia (i didn't get this joke fwiw)

sdk vote dimochka, carries out usual d1 task of needling people

jimbob claims to have left his vote on lg because of getting reaction and feels low risk at l-3. thinks sk more likely than not

sdk asks why jb is answering for others, aren't you interested in seeing their answers? true enough, i guess, albeit brusque. i'd be more concerned that people will now just answer "what jimbob said is true" and cop out of answering. (or maybe they'll quote jimbob and say "you say true, i say thankya" because flavour)

jimbob says they should still answer bc their reason might be different and there was opportunity to answer before jimbob got in. counters why didn't sdk answer lg?

sdk "didn't feel like it". classic sdk answer. not a fan any more than usual but the guy gets results so w/e

bf claims totes flavourblind, mafia mastery, always scum unless sdk says otherwise, votes plytho for taking joke vote too seriously. this post makes me expect to be rickrolled any second.

dimochka's post here is hilarious imo, asks sdk to ask something, praises jimbob's content and votes him for it.

bessie agrees sk and survivor are most common indies here, and cult is unpopular and would typically be advertised in advance. also anti-jester. questions jimbob's apparent knowledge of setup. dislikes lovers. thinks laserguy was composed for newbie w 4 votes on page 1, finds this interesting but also jb's response to this. wants me to post (hi!). suspicious of downplaying sk

dimochka backpedals on jester, and on vote.

bf continues being super srs bzns about votes, except in this post i can't tell if he's being funny or not (ftr, i don't expect him to elucidate on this)

yoloswag explains abductor, votes dimochka w no reason

sdk claims serious vote, will grill dimochka up tomorrow (quick, someone, is this phrase a breadcrumb? is there some king character known for grilling or barbecuing?)

laserguy pushes jimbob on his lack of surprise and defence of the wagon that surrounded his rv. pushes sdk on his answer. thinks jester relatively rare. not sure if dimochka joking re jimbob.

jb claims first vote always semirandom, often on newish people to gauge. thought the pile would be a chance to see a reaction to an early wagon. corrects bessie re his thoughts on sk. thinks this setup may be modified from dollhouse, it seems? pushes on sdk as well

mpolo gut jb feels wrong. otoh could be genius ploy. won't vote now. could constitute enough to carry a d1 lynch.

plytho asks why jb doesn't unvote and make up mind later. assumes ff's vote on him wouldn't be a silly mistake for an experienced player, instead it's prodding.

zyth gut newbie town on plytho

jb why should i unvote @ plytho

plytho i didn't say that it's just a q @jb

jb people are still reacting so it's still got purpose

bessie asks who's still reacting, rvs have been over since page one ergo jb vote serious, vote jb (presumably serious)

sdk thinks plytho is town, wants to know if lg wants a serious answer (...why wouldn't he?). claims to be getting what he wants (discussion), questions mpolo's gut. questions why bessie disagrees w jb re sk. builds a case on dimochka quite explicitly. claims to be as sure as he can be so early.

mpolo attempts to explain jimbob gut - mainly big post on joke vote. jesters infrequent since they usually can claim, get their win and leave then game continues. sk survivor most likely, sometimes lyncher or bodyguard. if sk then probably vig or smaller mafia

jb responses about lg and reactions, asks bessie about zyth's downplaying of sk, or ff, or mpolo. thinks lg town. votes me for lurking. doubts sdk's case on dimochka

dimochka thinks bessie and bf likely town, claims town and pulls "yeah what i did was a waste sorry" which idek what to read in that anymore.

zyth thinks dimochka scum, jb null, newbie lg, sdk town bc similar thought process (this is a red flag for me, i am a big fan of "just bc you disagree doesn't make you scum" and the contrapositive). questions bf town read, rescinds lg newb

bf agrees plytho town. votes dim.

bessie doesn't think jb is sk, but thinks he is non-town, builds a little evidence of this.

lg some reads, some hedging (this could be newbieness and unwillingness to throw opinions around though). vote dimochka

jb explains why he thinks bessie thinks he is sk (phew!).

zyth seems to be gathering data before putting reads out.


You can read through that whole lot if you want to get a complete picture of where my brain is at regarding the current state of play. The following is my attempt to pull out the bits I want to focus on, player by player -- distilled thought essence and nascent proto-reads:

GoP: Rusty flavour knowledge. Speculates on an SK Made an IT reference, which may have been an attempt at demonstrating flavour knowledge. Setup spec is 8/3/1/1 - all power town, one neutral and one anti indie. There's not really anything since that I think, although RL justification was given for this. I don't know what to think yet, I could take a couple of things in a lot of different directions here which I think is a sign to hold off on taking anything anywhere.

Zyth: He thinks 8/3/1/1 with an SK seems unlikely, and I agree, as it does seem to have a lot of potential for town to lose early. He seems very happy to take a relative backseat and gather data then provide reads. I don't like that his town read on SDK comes from them agreeing. I am a fan of "Disagreeing doesn't make you scum" and vice-versa. Some of his reads seem legit, but I don't get strong town vibes.

YOLOSWAG: His main contribution appears to be two random votes. He asked about meta for 3rd party roles here. I'd like to see more before passing judgement, and if you put a gun to my head now I'd have to put him on the scum side of the line for active-lurky behaviour.

plytho: I feel as though he is probably town. He doesn't seem to be on the same page as jimbob about how to gain information from a random vote, but I think both he and jimbob have meritorious arguments here. He does seem to understand where jimbob's initial vote comes from, and my (rapidly fading) perception that he may have a lack of understanding here is the reason for my newbie feels on him.

FrozenFlame: He has pretty strong feelings on setups and the balance thereof, but they may not be of much use in a new meta-context. He did make observations I thought astute regarding the frequency of killing indies, but pushed it a little hard. For D1, if it weren't for the differences in meta, I'd be willing to think this was downplaying 3rd party kills. I was a little confused as well by his calling OMGUS on dimochka but voting plytho. I don't know his meta to get a feeling for if this is typical, so based on his play my read is "could you explain some things, please?"

SDK: I value his contributions in terms of asking questions and throwing his weight around to get reactions, it really does help to generate content. That seems like fairly towny, behaviour, and fits my picture of his meta. Of course, SDK is a good enough player to do the same thing as scum, so I can't really offer more than a gut feeling that it's towny this time.

dimochka: Has been the focus of a lot of attention this day. He didn't add a 5th RV to LaserGuy but he also hung a lampshade on that fact. His setup spec relies on mod-mind-reading, which is an interesting tack to have taken. I don't know what it was in his role PM that reminded him of the PGO from PYPoke, and certainly I didn't get the joke despite having been there. There's some stuff which I am a little pinged by, some backpedaling and some agreeing with other people's scummy reads on him.

bessie: She is a little time-poor at the moment, but I am worried she's tunneling in too hard on this jimbob thing about SKs. Typically she will treat all the players to some scrutiny before zeroing in, so going straight to one player is uncharacteristic, imo. Still, I'm willing to give it a little time.

jimbob: His setup spec differs from others, he thinks 9/4 is likely and SK not in his first post, but later revises this to SK is more likely than not. While poking players for a response does check out as town/jimbob behaviour, I agree with mpolo's gut feeling that something feels off. With that said, I don't truly know whether I agree of my own accord or am being influenced by mpolo here. I think he's definitely worth keeping an eye on, but I'm not about to go in for all the beans with a vote on him.

mpolo: His thoughts on the meta here surrounding indie roles mesh with my experience and are useful for the new players, but he hasn't yet given much in the way of content specific to this game.

LaserGuy: I think he has more votes than posts! I also think I am more perturbed by the wagon on him than he is himself. He has pushed a couple of players here and there, which I do like. It's definitely worthwhile to push players on what they say, just to see whether you can get a peek into what lies behind the words.

BoomFrog: He is a player I consider old guard, as I believe he both started and left playing here before I started. I don't have a good sense of his meta, but he seems to be a super super serious kind of operator, so I'll be sure never to take anything he says at anything other than face value. I would like to see him using that mafia mastery he talked about to do some scumhunting or to drum up some stellar reads, though.

Hopefully what I've said here addresses the questions that have been put to me, if not in a direct manner. I need to sleep, I'll be out most of tomorrow working, but coming Monday I start 2 weeks of annual leave so expect a serious uptick in my being here after that.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:22 pm UTC

Quick hit for jimbob while I'm reading the thread, I see he's here: What is your opinion of bessie?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:29 pm UTC

I held back on stating my reasoning for voting dimochka because of:
SDK wrote:@dimochka: I'll grill you up tomorrow.

I wanted to see what he had on dimochka and his thought process managed to lined up with mine, which I like and shows that he is actually thinking about the game, though of course scum can do the same as well, which is why I have him as a town lean instead of a full on town read. I wouldn't have someone as scum just for disagreeing.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:45 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laserguy, what are your reads on SDK and jumbob?


SDK is probably town. jimbob is leaning scum.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby SDK » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:19 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - I think you are misconstruing my comments about an SK. I'm not saying there isn't one and that we shouldn't try to lynch them at some point, but on D1 I feel like it's too early to be able to reliably identify such a threat.
I don’t agree with this comment.

Do you actually disagree with the logic in general, or are you just so sure that you've caught the SK now that you disagree for this game in particular?
I never said I thought jimbob was a serial killer. But I do think he is non-town. His posts read like he is in damage control mode.

I think his logic is correct, and I'm not sure why you're attacking him on that point, but damage control could be true based on my memory alone. I'll try to find time to read into that today.


LaserGuy wrote:Some reads so far...

Your thought process seems fair enough, but you don't come to any conclusion on me or jimbob. What's the read?

Also, I asked you a question:
Spoiler:
SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?


Didn't feel like it.


So, active lurking? IGMEOY too.

Active lurking seems a bit of a stretch. Do you actually want a more serious answer, or are you just throwing mud here?


LaserGuy wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laserguy, what are your reads on SDK and jumbob?


SDK is probably town. jimbob is leaning scum.

That's surprising given your previous post. Can you explain which aspects of what you said before led you to that conclusion?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:36 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Quick hit for jimbob while I'm reading the thread, I see he's here: What is your opinion of bessie?
Leaning town. I regularly see her tunnel on somebody in other games to a greater or lesser extent (it looks like I'm the victim here), so I don't feel like that's scummy coming from her. Meta read on her makes me feel the same way I do usually about her, i.e. townie. Admittedly, I can't actually remember the last time bessie was scum in a game when I wasn't the mod, so this may just be how she always feels.

P.S. I'm usually online throughout the work day, with the forum open in the background, but that doesn't mean I'm actually paying any attention to the thread. It depends on what work I'm doing, and whether my code is compiling or not etc.
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