The Dark Tower - Mission failure

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BoomFrog
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby BoomFrog » Mon May 01, 2017 3:52 am UTC

I'll probably switch to mpolo later, but I'll withhold for now just to make sure we get a full day, and leave time for SDK to show up and make his case. Leaving out the scum chat slip mpolo has been very passive. I'm a bit unhappy that we are letting Zyth essentially choose the lynch out the two most hated candidates. (Carlington, mpolo). Zyth has felt townie but has been fairly passive and is not my strongest town read.

@Zyth: In addition to my question about laserGuy being in your top four, why did you pick mpolo over Carlington?

SDK's last post was Thursday stating he is busy and will post tomorrow morning, so clearly SDK has RL issues. If his lurking is a scum strategy I would be very surprised and disappointed, I'm 95% sure it's RL issues. Regardless of SDK's actual alignment leaving him listed as town seems scummy to me. He was very towny D1 beside the whole leading the charge on a townie thing. It was perfectly justified which is why most kept him listed as town. I think scum would likely leave him listed as town because they aren't filled with the paranoia of a townie second guessing their reads each time they post. I'm not giving GoP too much credit though since he posted his reads after mine.
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Carlington
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Mon May 01, 2017 4:13 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:FOS Gopher
This post rubbed me the wrong way because there's a lot of "however, but" in these reads. It reminds me of scum being very choosy with his words and avoiding linking himself to anyone. Also, he said these are his first thoughts on a skim read. So that means that one of the first things he feels the town should know is that mpolo is null due to playing to his meta? I don't mean that in some kind of mocking way, I just find it hard to believe that that thought would be one of the first things he wants to share as town.


There was one however, and I've now realised that it was a mistake. I'm sorry for trying to analyse all the information, instead of blindly picking one fault and running with it. And your other concern is handled below.


What did you think of Gopher's reply here?

If I may, Gopher's reply is taking YOLOSWAG's reference to "however, but" very literally, and asserting that there's only one occurrence of the actual word "however" in the relevant post.

Also, he hasn't given me a reason not to since my read on him, so
Vote: Gopher of Pern
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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 01, 2017 5:28 am UTC

Carlington and mpolo are both fairly scummy to me, I don't particularly care which one goes first. If we would like to switch over to carlington, I wouldn't mind either. Though, carlington has at least provided us some content to work with, mpolo on the other hand, has barely any content outside of his reads list, which honestly, is not very much at all.

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Sabrar
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 01, 2017 5:33 am UTC

SDK has been mod-prodded.

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FrozenFlame
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 01, 2017 6:34 am UTC

Please don't modkill me. Blatant "prod dodge" post here but I literally just got back home from Virginia. Helped the lady move out this weekend and just drove 7 hours back home with work in 6 hours so need to sleep but I will be catching up if its slow at the office tomorrow, hopefully should have something meaningful up by lunch time. Completely forgot to put y'all on notice that I'd be limited access for the weekend so my bad on that, and apologies to all generally for my inactivity

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Carlington
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Mon May 01, 2017 6:37 am UTC

@Zyth, could I trouble you to put together your reads on people and your reasoning behind them in one place? Having re-read the thread a couple of times I'm finding it hard to pin down your actual thoughts on anyone aside from when you quasi-randomly post that you find a player scummy and support their lynch, or towny and oppose their lynch.

@BoomFrog, I think you're being a little too harsh on SDK. Hindsight is 20-20, and I think it's unfair to put the blame for dimochka's lynch entirely on SDK. I also tend to think that we shouldn't read anything much into a player's display of regret for a mislynch. It's way, way too easy for scum to give a token fake "oh hell, what a terrible night was last night. Rally, town, don't let this dampen our spirits!" and in fact I feel like I've made plenty such fake posts as scum (you probably have too, it's easy townie brownie points).
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Carlington
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Mon May 01, 2017 6:38 am UTC

Ninja'd by FrozenFlame:
Can I request an extension so that FrozenFlame can get back into the game and we can get some content from him?
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Sabrar
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 01, 2017 9:42 am UTC

Due to apparently multiple players having RL issues there will be a 24 hour extension to D2.

I would like to ask all to notify us in advance if they know that they won't be able to participate in the game for a few days. That way players won't needlessly wait on others and can generate more content.

New deadline is Wednesday 9am UTC, little less than 2 full days from now.

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SDK
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby SDK » Mon May 01, 2017 2:14 pm UTC

Hello! I would have been making this post whether or not I was prodded, since I realize I missed posting on Friday. Apologies for that. Most weekends I'm not that active, but this weekend in particular I was out backcountry camping in the snow, so no dice there. I've skimmed the new posts and I will get a solid post up later today, likely this afternoon.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Mon May 01, 2017 2:56 pm UTC

I don't think I called Frozen Flame "active lurky", which would mean that he was posting without content, which is definitely scummy, but "lurky" as in not posting. I never thought to try to use the forum software to find out when he had logged on. I just noted the fact of few posts. Strike that - I just looked at my post. I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that I didn't like specific things in his posts.

Now we have something looking like collusion to start a train against me on false pretences. Which has me really nervous about those people.

I'm just going to claim and get it over with. I am completely neutral - I want another player to survive the game. If that player dies, I will also leave the game as a loser. If I am lynched or killed, I can still win if my target lives. I had a one-shot night protect that was only usable in favor of my target, but I used that on N1. I have no setup information regarding the alignment of the person I'm keeping alive, and I'm obviously not going to reveal who it is.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 01, 2017 4:32 pm UTC

If mpolo's claim is correct, that puts us at 5-3-1-1 at best, which is pretty bad for town especially since if mpolo is helping a scum player, or the SK (the latter being unlikely, IMHO). I don't like this at all. :?

@mpolo: Do you know which particular player you are trying to keep alive, or only which character they are from flavor?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Mon May 01, 2017 4:35 pm UTC

I know who I am trying to keep alive (player name and character name, not power or alignment). I suspect that that person does not know that I am on their team (but I could be wrong). If I name claimed, they would likely know that I am their protector, but I'm not sure how much that information would tip the setup, so I will not do that for now.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon May 01, 2017 5:02 pm UTC

Time for the promised reads list. As I think there's potentially some interesting information about the presumed SK out there, I've also commented how likely people are to be SK, in my opinion. I've reread the thread for D2 only, due to time.

Notes:
Spoiler:
BoomFrog - Voted dimochka D1, quite late, although had earlier stated suspicion. Thinks SK obvious, and should probably be targeting scum. Thinks I am likely same alignment as dimochka, i.e. Town, due to lack of push-back on wagon. Thinks LaserGuy enthusiastic scum. Asks GoP why not 100% sure about lack of vanilla roles/power town claim. Re-emphasises SK should aim for scum. Thinks 4 scum, and wants opinions from lurkers. Tired of people only picking one scummy person. Complains about LaserGuy answering GoP's question. Thinks GoP's answer logically incorrect, but also townie. Reads list switches LaserGuy to townie, and puts Carlington as only real scum, with slight scum leans on SDK and mpolo. Votes Carlington. Says he should have tried to call off the D1 lynch. Explains thought process behind vote. Thinks mpolo not mafia, due to chat slip, but also untownie, possibly SK. Doesn't think it likely that scum were all on my early wagon. Challenges GoP over lack of scum hunting. Asks for read of SDK from Carlington. Points out GoP's reversal of opinion over mpolo's slip. Wants more explanation from Zyth. Probably will switch to mpolo. Unhappy about Zyth driving the wagon. Thinks scum would leave SDK as town.

Carlington - No D1 vote. Thinks an SK likely, as only possible mis-fired vig was GoP targeting plytho (corrected to bessie), which is unlikely due to GoP's read on Yoloswag. Used no power, didn't think was targeted. Explains reason for why claimed no action. Didn't vote, but supported dimochka wagon. Finds interest in mpolo interesting. Confused by Yoloswag's vig discussion logic. Gives read of FrozenFlame for Yoloswag (slightly scummy). Challenges BoomFrog on "coulda, woulda, shoulda". Reads list has GoP scummy (touchy and defensive), mpolo town, me scummy (question style), SDK town, FrozenFlame slightly scummy, LaserGuy town. Unsure about setup now. Votes GoP for taking comments by Yoloswag to literally, plus previous reads comments.

FrozenFlame - No D1 vote. Hoping for Mafia/SK crossfire. Thinks scum killed bessie and SK plytho. Challenges Carlington re. early claim, echoing my comments. Votes mpolo because he thinks he is the SK based on his comments and D1 vote.

Gopher of Pern - Voted Yoloswag D1 (biggest scummy read except dimochka). FoSses Carlington over mistake. Reviews lynch wagon and subsequently votes Yoloswag for his vote there and earlier suspicions. Doesn't think town!Carlington would make mistake. Responds to LaserGuy's read of himself. Makes annoyed response to BoomFrog's comment re. not answering question. Points out Yoloswag has not responded to his comments. Carlington almost certainly scum. Brief other reads.

#HBC | Yoloswag - Voted dimochka D1. Votes me in first post D2, supported by dead townie votes on me. Wants to know why mpolo didn't join a wagon earlier. Wants opinions from some players on FrozenFlame. D1 vig comment was a mistake. Asks for FrozenFlame comments on LaserGuy/me discussion. Waiting on Carlington comments on FrozenFlame before posting scum pool. Thinks 1-2 scum weren't voting on main wagons and 1 on dimochka wagon. Wouldn't lynch FrozenFlame. Would like to see me lynched, but happy enough for Gopher or mpolo to be. Townies must be misreading scum. Nobody has Carlington as Town. Talks about GoP's exchange, and maybe uncertain what to think, due to lack of meta understanding. Switches vote to mpolo; also happy to support lynching me or Carlington.

#HBC | Zyth - Voted dimochka very early D1. Content has massively dropped off since my previous reads list. Confused by dimochka's town read of BoomFrog. Thinks mafia killed plytho and SK bessie. Doesn't think misplace vig likely. Thinks Yolo and FrozenFlame town. Has mpolo, Carlington, LaserGuy me as scum candidates, latter two more neutral. Votes mpolo due to lack of scum reads or pushing. Scum team of mpolo, Carlington, me (no good read on me). Explains comment about dimochka meta read on BoomFrog. Has me and LaserGuy on the negative end through process of elimination. Happy to lynch either Carlington or LaserGuy.

LaserGuy - Voted dimochka on D1. Thinks SK likely. Doesn't understand Carlington's claim or mistake. Doesn't understand dimochka's play either. Big early updated reads, with plenty of who he thinks are possible scum buddies for different players. Zyth and mpolo possible SK, and me, Gopher, Carlington and BoomFrog scum. BoomFrog play has improved. Surprised by how confident Gopher is. Me or Carlington lynch ok. Pretty sure mpolo is SK, but is otherwise town. Follows up on Yoloswag and SDK.

mpolo - Voted BoomFrog on D1. Wished dimochka would have fought lynch harder. Some comments about likelihood of Serial Killer, and setup speculation, lumping non-nefarious indies with town. Thought dimochka was jester. Thinks near impossible to target SK. Weakly supposes SK should target mafia. Admits actually possible to identify SK. Reads list, with BoomFrog as only scum. Thinks there's a collusion to lynch him on false pretenses. Claims Guardian Angel.

SDK - Voted dimochka on D1. Admitted to starting wagon and refuses to apologise. Apparently we have an SK. Promises reread of dimochka's flip.
BoomFrog - Was one of my scummier reads yesterday, but his content has really improved on D2, in my opinion. He is one of the few active players out there and seems to be genuinely hunting for scum, and prodding many players about things. My gut says that he probably isn't the SK either, as his comments on the SK don't sound like they would come from a SK trying to disguise himself as Town, but I'm not particularly certain about that. Probably town. Unlikely to be SK.

@BoomFrog - you said you would probably switch to mpolo. What changed since your previous read of him and Carlington?

Carlington - his fits-and-spurts posting style (days without any, then a burst of posts close together) feels very similar to his play in the last couple of games, when he was scum, but I'm not sure I'm ready to say that that makes him scum. His early D2 claim was stupid, but now that I think about it more, feels more likely to come from town than scum, because I'd expect scum to be more cautious with early results claims. When he has posted, his more recent comments seem okay. The way he is talking about an SK doesn't feel the same as the last game when he was an SK, although the early second kill N1, compared to Diablo Mafia when no second kill was immediately obvious, may cause this. Slight town lean. Probably not SK. I would like to see more regular posting from him.

FrozenFlame - Nothing has changed since my earlier read on him, so slightly townie. I think his pushing mpolo over being SK doesn't feel like a Serial Killer fabricating the argument, so unlikely to be SK. Would obviously like to see a lot more from him, before day end.

Gopher of Pern - sounds quite annoyed at times, which I recall from town!Gopher before (but it might also come from scum Gopher, I don't know his meta well enough). I didn't like his failure to respond to a question directed at him, especially given that he was complaining about Yoloswag's lack of answer to his own questions. His continued needling at Yoloswag is good, in my opinion, but then I disagree with his certainty over scum!Carlington, especially as it's based on a bit of recent meta, that could easily be general meta, (i.e. town!Carlington might well have the same meta). What I find particularly odd is that he thinks Carlington "is almost certainly scum" whilst having Yoloswag as 90% scum, yet has Yoloswag as scummier. He hasn't mentioned SK at all on D2. Slightly scummy due to over-focusing on a couple of players. Could also be the SK, trying to drive discussion onto general scum.

@Gopher of Pern - if you had to give a percentage to your scum certainty on Carlington, what would it be?

Also @Gopher of Pern - a number of other players have posted comments on who they think the SK is, and why. What are your thoughts?

#HBC | Yoloswag - his earlier content D2 was pretty weak, and basically consisted of asking questions of various players, with no content coming from himself. This has changed somewhat in the last couple of days to include more helpful content and opinions on certain players. He has backed off Gopher for some reason, despite having him as scummiest (other than myself), which he never really explains, as far as I can see. Also, hasn't commented on SK at all. He seems to like hopping on wagons a lot, having switched today from voting me to voting mpolo, despite my relative lack of content (and therefore presumably I haven't said anything to change his mind). Maybe slightly scummy, based at least partially on my D1 read of him. Possible SK, based purely on the lack of comments on it.

@Yoloswag - I'm not sure I was able to digest your comments about Gopher enough to figure out where your opinion on him changed from being the top scummiest (excluding myself presumably) to voting mpolo with myself and Carlington as alternatives. Could you explain this more, please. Also, do you have any thoughts on an SK or who it may be?

#HBC | Zyth - I had his as townie D1, but I have not felt as good about him today. He has stated that various people are town, without really explaining why he feels that way. I'd like to see some justification behind these reads. Similarly, he has Carlington as scum, but no stated justification behind that either. His read on mpolo is fair, but I'd like to see Zyth's response to mpolo's claim. Slightly scummy due to lack of explanations for reads, making it hard to judge him. No real opinion on him being SK, due to lack of related content, apart from a small mention.

@Zyth - Please provide an explanation of why you find Carlington scummy, and also say what you think about mpolo's claim. Also, do you have any thoughts on an SK or who it may be?

--Twenty minutes left to get this lot finished off, so rest may seem rushed--

LaserGuy - relatively few posts on D2, but his reads list is one of my favourite, at least in terms of efforts, I've seen, although I don't have time to really digest it fully. I like that he's trying to link different players to form plausible scum teams. I've tried doing that in the past, and found myself pretty poor at it usually, at least until somebody flips. My only gripe with it is the SK read on Zyth, which I find odd, given that the reasoning could work just as well for several other players. I would like to get some updated reads from him generally, to see what he thinks, now that more people have posted. Probably town. Not sure what to think about SK, but probably not.

@LaserGuy - what is your opinion on lynching mpolo, now that he has claimed non-town?

mpolo - definitely not town, following his claim, and I don't feel like he is mafia, because I feel like they'd have made more than an effort. That being said, the same could be said about SK, although his other comments about SK definitely feel off to me, and I think that puts him as my top candidate. One major comment that makes me think he is not as claimed, is his recent setup spec, where he lumped "non-nefarious indies" in with town, which presumably would have included himself, if being truthful. However his threat to town depends upon the alignment of his target, so he could easily side with scum later on if protecting one of them. Either third-party as claimed, or SK, with the latter much more likely - I don't think a Jester would have bothered to claim, which is about the only other thought that I could come up with.

@mpolo - why do you refuse to claim your target?

SDK - unusually low activity for him today. He definitely needs to post his reads and respond to comments. I don't have an issue with his one post with content. Leaning town, due mainly to earlier feeling on him. No idea about SK.

---

Urrggh, I'm definitely having trouble picking out any strong scum candidates. I'll need to have another look Tuesday evening, with the extension.

Town
BoomFrog
LaserGuy
Carlington
SDK
FrozenFlame
mpolo (probably SK)
Zyth
Yoloswag
Gopher of Pern
Scum

Could we get some votals, please?
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Sabrar
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 01, 2017 5:09 pm UTC

Votals:
mpolo - 3 (FrozenFlame, #HBC | Zyth, #HBC | YOLOSWAG)
Carlington - 1 (BoomFrog)
Gopher of Pern -1 (Carlington)
#HBC | YOLOSWAG - 1 (Gopher of Pern)

Not voting: jimbobmacdoodle, LaserGuy, mpolo, SDK

6 to hammer, tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon May 01, 2017 5:52 pm UTC

Vote mpolo

I'm reasonably happy that he is SK, and if he isn't he's either mafia or an indie who might side with scum if it turns out their target is independent. I wouldn't oppose a Gopher lynch, pending a more in depth reread of him.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 01, 2017 6:09 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@LaserGuy - what is your opinion on lynching mpolo, now that he has claimed non-town?


I think mpolo should claim either his character and his target character. From flavor, we should be able to work out if he is likely to be pro-town or not from this information. I see three possible reasons why he might not have done this already:
1) His target player is an alternate lynch candidate for today, and he believes that if he gives away too much information about this role, people may switch the lynch to the person he wants to protect.
2) His target character is anti-town and revealing this may lead to a policy lynch on mpolo either today or somewhere down the line.
3) He's the SK and is lying through his teeth.

1) and 2) are not mutually exclusive.

I don't care for this wagon. A lot of the people on it are reading mpolo as scum, which I don't agree with. I'll accept that there's a decent chance mpolo is the SK, but that's not why the bulk of the votes seem to be falling on him. Even if he is the SK, I'm not sure that it's particularly favorable for us to lynch him tonight as opposed to hitting scum.

I think this option is much more palatable to me:

Vote Carlington

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mpolo
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Mon May 01, 2017 6:17 pm UTC

I am Andy McGee from Firestarter.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Mon May 01, 2017 6:48 pm UTC

And I don't want to reveal my target, because if he or she is town, there's a "lose two for the price of one" deal in the night, and I always try to play for town when given a choice. Although maybe it's to my advantage to claim in this situation. I will think about it.
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LaserGuy
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 01, 2017 7:43 pm UTC

Revealing your target player would definitely be a bad idea if they are town.

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Sabrar
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 01, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

Deadline is in 37 hours. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
mpolo - 4 (FrozenFlame, #HBC | Zyth, #HBC | YOLOSWAG, jimbobmacdoodle)
Carlington - 2 (BoomFrog, LaserGuy)
Gopher of Pern - 1 (Carlington)
#HBC | YOLOSWAG - 1 (Gopher of Pern)

Not voting: mpolo, SDK

6 to hammer, tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby BoomFrog » Mon May 01, 2017 8:10 pm UTC

Mpolo's claim makes perfect sense with his behavior. SK is still possible but his thought process on claiming seems genuine. I give him a low chance of being a threat before endgame and only a medium chance of being a threat even then.

@mpolo: I agree you should not claim who your target is, we don't want to give mafia the two for one if your target is town.

@carlington: you basically have four votes on you, Zyth and Yoloswag said they would switch to you next. You should claim.

@zyth: I'd still like to know your thinking about why LaserGuy was in your top four scum.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby BoomFrog » Mon May 01, 2017 8:15 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@BoomFrog - you said you would probably switch to mpolo. What changed since your previous read of him and Carlington?
Mpolo was in my top three scum reads, I preferred a carlington lynch but mpolo was reasonable and most of the wagon was formed by people I'm reading as townie.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby SDK » Mon May 01, 2017 10:28 pm UTC

Okay, time to get back into this game. Still not done my marking, but I'll make a bit more time tomorrow to finish what I can't get to today.

BoomFrog is feeling better early on, though still nagging at times ("I can probably hit scum with the lynch today" feels off).

Carlington wrote:The sudden interest in jimbob and mpolo is interesting, I'm going to re-read for consistency, brb.

What do you mean by "sudden interest"? jimbob was under decent pressure through a lot of Day 1, and mpolo had just one vote on him at the time (and not a lot of discussion besides that).

mpolo wrote:I agree with SDK that it is near impossible to target the SK, since we won't have connections to go on. Any scum hit would be good, but taking out the SK would be better, unless he starts targeting mafia tonight. (Which, I suppose, is in his interest.)

You agree with me? I was responding to you saying "I think I would prioritize getting the serial killer to take out a kill and slow this down enough to analyze." Why would you say that if you think it's impossible to do so? For the record, I don't even think it's impossible, just difficult. (Also, yeah, what jimbob said)

LaserGuy's big list feels decent overall. Not sure about his read of mpolo as SK. I should look into that.

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:I'm an abrasive, caustic, uncooperative, antagonistic jerk.

This read is spot on.

Ouch! No one seems to have noticed that that was a compilation of everything I've been called so far this game. I think I intended for that to mean something, but I can't remember what now exactly...

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Dimochka: Was initially very weird. Would make points, then back off them unnecessarily, I feel. Then a big analysis post, which seems ok on the surface, but ultimately doesn't say a lot. Then promises to answer questions later, but hasn't replied since. Having looked a bit closer, I can see why the wagon is hitched, and I can't say I blame them. I'd very possibly vote for them if they weren't at L-1.


I don't like this read. If dimochka flips town, I'm coming for you. Otherwise... I might still be coming for you, actually. Need more content. Your reads are partial. Maybe scum

What do you find scummy in particular about this? Why is it scummy regardless of whether dimochka is town or scum?

This is very scummy treatment of the leading wagon at the time.
First off, the points he finds against dimochka are very superficial. "Weird", "seems ok, but", picking on absence - easy stuff to make it look like he's doing his homework, you know?
Secondly, we come to his discussion of the wagon itself which is very noncommittal. In particular, "can't say I blame them" is a very weird thing to say about people he probably suspects to be town piling on someone he claims to suspect being scum. "I think you're on the right track" would be more along the lines of what he should be saying. I don't even know what "very possibly" means.

The wishy-washy nature of this one section pinged the hell out of me and had me worried that we might be on the wrong wagon, except that it could have still worked even if dimochka had been scum. Gopher sees his scum buddy, sees he's doing a pretty poor job of looking townie, now suddenly the "can't say I blame them" comment makes perfect sense. So, we continued and here we are. I'll complete this read once I get the chance to reread Gopher in-full.


Gopher of Pern wrote:Why would I reply to that?

If I reply that I wasn't aware that everyone had a power role, that gives me townie cred.

If I reply that I was aware that everyone had a power role, it gives you...nothing.

You keep on barking up the wrong trees.

I'm not a big fan of this response. Do you understand what BoomFrog was getting at with his question to you?


Carlington wrote:@BoomFrog, I think you're being a little too harsh on SDK. Hindsight is 20-20, and I think it's unfair to put the blame for dimochka's lynch entirely on SDK. I also tend to think that we shouldn't read anything much into a player's display of regret for a mislynch. It's way, way too easy for scum to give a token fake "oh hell, what a terrible night was last night. Rally, town, don't let this dampen our spirits!" and in fact I feel like I've made plenty such fake posts as scum (you probably have too, it's easy townie brownie points).

... I need to think about what this means.

Ran out of time for today. Back tomorrow.

To-Do
- look at dimochka wagon
- iso mpolo
- iso Gopher
- iso Carlington
- reread YOLOSWAG's Day 2 posts
- read jimbob's big reads list on Page 7
- figure out why a jimbob wagon never got any traction or attention when he was the counterwagon to town
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 01, 2017 10:43 pm UTC

vote: Carlington

BoomFrog wrote:Mpolo's claim makes perfect sense with his behavior. SK is still possible but his thought process on claiming seems genuine. I give him a low chance of being a threat before endgame and only a medium chance of being a threat even then.

@mpolo: I agree you should not claim who your target is, we don't want to give mafia the two for one if your target is town.

@carlington: you basically have four votes on you, Zyth and Yoloswag said they would switch to you next. You should claim.

@zyth: I'd still like to know your thinking about why LaserGuy was in your top four scum.


I already explained that in my final post of page 6.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Gopher of Pern » Tue May 02, 2017 2:47 am UTC

SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Dimochka: Was initially very weird. Would make points, then back off them unnecessarily, I feel. Then a big analysis post, which seems ok on the surface, but ultimately doesn't say a lot. Then promises to answer questions later, but hasn't replied since. Having looked a bit closer, I can see why the wagon is hitched, and I can't say I blame them. I'd very possibly vote for them if they weren't at L-1.


I don't like this read. If dimochka flips town, I'm coming for you. Otherwise... I might still be coming for you, actually. Need more content. Your reads are partial. Maybe scum

What do you find scummy in particular about this? Why is it scummy regardless of whether dimochka is town or scum?

This is very scummy treatment of the leading wagon at the time.
First off, the points he finds against dimochka are very superficial. "Weird", "seems ok, but", picking on absence - easy stuff to make it look like he's doing his homework, you know?
Secondly, we come to his discussion of the wagon itself which is very noncommittal. In particular, "can't say I blame them" is a very weird thing to say about people he probably suspects to be town piling on someone he claims to suspect being scum. "I think you're on the right track" would be more along the lines of what he should be saying. I don't even know what "very possibly" means.

The wishy-washy nature of this one section pinged the hell out of me and had me worried that we might be on the wrong wagon, except that it could have still worked even if dimochka had been scum. Gopher sees his scum buddy, sees he's doing a pretty poor job of looking townie, now suddenly the "can't say I blame them" comment makes perfect sense. So, we continued and here we are. I'll complete this read once I get the chance to reread Gopher in-full.


Gopher of Pern wrote:Why would I reply to that?

If I reply that I wasn't aware that everyone had a power role, that gives me townie cred.

If I reply that I was aware that everyone had a power role, it gives you...nothing.

You keep on barking up the wrong trees.

I'm not a big fan of this response. Do you understand what BoomFrog was getting at with his question to you?


Yes, my points against dimochka were superficial. That's because I've been lazy. Not scum. At the time, I could see the points everyone was making, but ultimately, I didn't think they were scum. I am very non-commital when I have nothing solid to go on.

Maybe I don't understand what Boomfrog was getting at? I use non-commital language a lot, it was no slip, I was originally saying everyone has a power role, and his question was answered for me later on. I still don't get it.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
Gopher of Pern - sounds quite annoyed at times, which I recall from town!Gopher before (but it might also come from scum Gopher, I don't know his meta well enough). I didn't like his failure to respond to a question directed at him, especially given that he was complaining about Yoloswag's lack of answer to his own questions. His continued needling at Yoloswag is good, in my opinion, but then I disagree with his certainty over scum!Carlington, especially as it's based on a bit of recent meta, that could easily be general meta, (i.e. town!Carlington might well have the same meta). What I find particularly odd is that he thinks Carlington "is almost certainly scum" whilst having Yoloswag as 90% scum, yet has Yoloswag as scummier. He hasn't mentioned SK at all on D2. Slightly scummy due to over-focusing on a couple of players. Could also be the SK, trying to drive discussion onto general scum.

@Gopher of Pern - if you had to give a percentage to your scum certainty on Carlington, what would it be?

Also @Gopher of Pern - a number of other players have posted comments on who they think the SK is, and why. What are your thoughts?


The question was already answered, hence my initial non-response. I know I come across as quite annoyed, but I'm really not.

I do think Carlington is scummier than YOLO, but I wanted to keep pressure on YOLO, as I feel they have ignored a lot of things directed at them.

My percentages would probably be Carlington 90%, YOLO 80%. Yes, I lied. I do that.

I typically find it hard to determine SK, as there are rarely links, and they generally can play as town, and it won't backfire. Anyone could be the SK. If I had to pick the SK, it would be Zyth, but I really have nothing to back it up. Regarding mpolo's claim, it's kinda believable, but I would suspect they are leaving some stuff out. I wouldn't suspect Andy McGee to have a protect power, from what little I read on the Stephen King Wikia. But that doesn't make mpolo scum, although they are almost certainly non-town. But now, if mpolo is telling the truth, someone would have a very good idea that he is.

Carlington wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:FOS Gopher
This post rubbed me the wrong way because there's a lot of "however, but" in these reads. It reminds me of scum being very choosy with his words and avoiding linking himself to anyone. Also, he said these are his first thoughts on a skim read. So that means that one of the first things he feels the town should know is that mpolo is null due to playing to his meta? I don't mean that in some kind of mocking way, I just find it hard to believe that that thought would be one of the first things he wants to share as town.


There was one however, and I've now realised that it was a mistake. I'm sorry for trying to analyse all the information, instead of blindly picking one fault and running with it. And your other concern is handled below.


What did you think of Gopher's reply here?

If I may, Gopher's reply is taking YOLOSWAG's reference to "however, but" very literally, and asserting that there's only one occurrence of the actual word "however" in the relevant post.

Also, he hasn't given me a reason not to since my read on him, so
Vote: Gopher of Pern


Not only literally, but my other three reads in that post did not have anything like a 'however, but'. I said SDK was caustic, but that neither speaks to town or scum. Hence my 'wtf?' moment.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 5:42 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Just have time for a few quick things...

BoomFrog is looking much townier today. I will have to do a full reread and try to re-evaluate properly when I have a bit more time, but based on what I've seen, I'm not planning on voting him today.

I'm surprised how confident GoP is in his scumreads in contrast to... well, virtually everyone else here. Making a note for later to reread him as well.

Either jimbob or Carlington lynch would be okay with me. I don't like the idea of lynching mpolo. If he isn't SK, I'm pretty sure he's town, and I'd rather not risk a mislynch on the chance of hitting the SK unless we're very confident in the decision. I'm not really happy with any of my scum reads right now... if we weren't in such a bad situation, I might be leaning toward a lurker lynch on Frozen, but I don't think we can afford to chance it.


This post really resonated with me. The more I read day 2 the harder I read BoomFrog as town, and I literally was thinking the same thing and made a similar mental note about GoP before I read this above quoted post. This shared experience is making Laserguy lean town a bit more for me.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@Laser

Frozen is one of the last people I would lynch. I believe scum are putting him in their neutral/scum list to keep their options open under the guise of "he's not very active" despite his content being solid. I don't do town reads, if that's what you're asking.

As for GoP listing people in the order of the playerlist (I think that's what you're referring to), that's fine. It's a neutral move.

I encourage everyone to reevaluate their town reads. We're at a point where no matter who is being talked about, someone else is slapping a town read on them. This suggests townies are misreading scum as innocent. What I HAVE noticed is that no one is reading Carlington as town; I think he's the only player not being town read by others which is interesting.
I've been looking for reasons to not trust Yoloswag but posts like these continue to ping town for me, so either Yolo is truly town and deservedly topping my town list or he has really refined his scum game to know how to play the shit out of me by calling out opportunism, in particular, opportunism takes the form of cheap and subtle digs at me from other players. And by digs I mean scum leaning rankings from players for "weak" or noncommittal reasons.

BoomFrog wrote:Mpolo's claim makes perfect sense with his behavior. SK is still possible but his thought process on claiming seems genuine. I give him a low chance of being a threat before endgame and only a medium chance of being a threat even then.
My thoughts exactly. mpolo came off strong as indy so I buy his claim of independent. Hard to say if its a gambit to cover for him being SK. Risky for sure, but also a strong play when town is already in a really bad position and can't "risk" lynching a claimed non-killing neutral when there are two killing roles that could likely put town out of the game with one more bad night. If this was day 1 I'd buy his claim much more but he really is in a great position to claim non-town and rely on the "look I'm being honest and I'm totally not your primary threat so don't waste your lynch on me or else" argument to preserve himself through town risk aversion and proclivity to take admissions against interest as full honesty which is just a cheap heuristic trick.

Sadly its a trick thats working on me though because given how volatile this setup is turning out to be, if he IS in fact a true non killing neutral he's right and we really can't waste the lynch today. So yeah my risk aversion makes me not want to call his bluff if he's running that gambit as SK. Fucking frustrating as shit though

I could get behind a GoP or Carlington lynch. Need to re-read a bit to really figure out who the best play is. SDK scum possibility has been nagging me for a bit but I can't come up with any good reason why he's the best play today so I'll leave that be. I really can't decide what to think about jimbob having two confirmed townies and only those two voting for him at end of D1. Neither vote came with boatloads of conviction which makes me feel like it was mere TvT instead of TvS. Tbh don't have much faith in dimochkas D1 reads but I need to look at bessie again to answer this better for myself. Either way still wouldn't say jimbob is a play over GoP or carlington.

We basically only have one day left so if people are going to claim better sooner than later so we can actually discuss the claims before deadline.

Unvote: Mpolo

Vote: Carlington for pressure to claim. Haven't decided definitively if he's the best play over GoP. I'll be engaged as much as possible in between my appointments tomorrow at work.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 5:49 am UTC

Also want to note that upon re-read GoP's post just above my last one reeks of "let me impugn myself purposefully so people are more likely to buy my excuses for off play as genuine not scummy." Particularly, the post carries the weighted implication that anyone who can't see through his questionable "lazy" or "superficial" play for "what it is" in GoP's opinion (i.e. lazy and non-committal but NOT scummy, according to GoP) is misreading him due to their flawed interpretation. He's subtly placing the burden on us to decipher these actions of his and be able to filter out the "scum seeming" aspects without getting thrown off by it. The fact that he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that it's reasonable to interpret these facets of his posts as inherently scummy pings to me as scum attempting to avoid the question altogether. Basically it seems like an underhanded way to "gaslight" readers into thinking they're dumb for not seeing his post for "what they are" when in reality the observation that these facets that are being pointed out are in fact scummy.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Gopher of Pern » Tue May 02, 2017 5:58 am UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:Also want to note that upon re-read GoP's post just above my last one reeks of "let me impugn myself purposefully so people are more likely to buy my excuses for off play as genuine not scummy." Particularly, the post carries the weighted implication that anyone who can't see through his questionable "lazy" or "superficial" play for "what it is" in GoP's opinion (i.e. lazy and non-committal but NOT scummy, according to GoP) is misreading him due to their flawed interpretation. He's subtly placing the burden on us to decipher these actions of his and be able to filter out the "scum seeming" aspects without getting thrown off by it. The fact that he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that it's reasonable to interpret these facets of his posts as inherently scummy pings to me as scum attempting to avoid the question altogether. Basically it seems like an underhanded way to "gaslight" readers into thinking they're dumb for not seeing his post for "what they are" when in reality the observation that these facets that are being pointed out are in fact scummy.


Huh?

I accept I have come across as scummy, mainly due to my laziness. I'm trying to answer questions as directly as I can. I have been participating, not to my usual self, admittedly, but with so many people I am unused to playing with, it was getting hard to get a good read on people.

Yes, people who see me as scummy are misreading me, because I am town. I know you're not going to take my word for it though.

I kinda resent that you think that I am 'gaslighting' people.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Tue May 02, 2017 6:37 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:@carlington: you basically have four votes on you, Zyth and Yoloswag said they would switch to you next. You should claim.

Given when this came, it strikes me as role-fishing. I don't think anyone should be basing whether to claim off hypothetical votes.

That said, there's enough actual votes now that a quickhammer is possible and since we could be at MYLO:

I'm Richie Tozier, town's universal backup. That's why my 'no result' claim was the way it was. I wanted townies to think about why I might claim that way and conclude that I had some power that wasn't usable N1, so that they might have some idea we had a backup.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Tue May 02, 2017 8:18 am UTC

Carlington's claim is fairly believable -- the character is known for imitating voices in his youth, getting better with time.

Claims are such that one has a pretty huge range of possible characters that one could claim, so there is relatively little risk of hitting a character that is in the game, though the possibility of hitting a duplicated character is likely enough to stop false claiming.

Because of my current situation, I am kind of holding out on voting until I know which way the wind is blowing. I am thinking YOLOSWAG at the moment, but need to gather my thought.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Sabrar » Tue May 02, 2017 8:20 am UTC

Deadline is in a day. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
Carlington - 4 (BoomFrog, LaserGuy, #HBC | Zyth, FrozenFlame)
mpolo - 2 (#HBC | YOLOSWAG, jimbobmacdoodle)
Gopher of Pern - 1 (Carlington)
#HBC | YOLOSWAG - 1 (Gopher of Pern)

Not voting: mpolo, SDK

6 to hammer, tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Tue May 02, 2017 11:19 am UTC

Vote Carlington

Claim does nothing for me. He might actually be a backup, but I believe that role can go either way (I know I've thought about using it as a mod).

I actually still wouldn't mind finishing mpolo. I'm surprised he's getting off; indy claims tend to get lynched on site where I play and I have seen mafia use them. 5 scum seems a little out there so I admit that's giving me doubt as well, but I guess others are used to that here.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue May 02, 2017 11:50 am UTC

That's L-1 I believe. Please nobody else vote for Carlington until everybody has had a chance to contribute further. I don't agree with the lynch anyway, and I believe his claim (I'd guessed that he was backup based on the claim already).
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Tue May 02, 2017 1:55 pm UTC

I suppose my vote doesn't mean a lot at this point, but

vote: HBC | YOLOSWAG

He comes across as providing more questions than content, and advocating policy lynches where it is not really in town's best interest. And advocating the lynching of a claimed town backup (who if telling the truth is likely something important given yesterday's flips) doesn't seem to be the best move.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Tue May 02, 2017 2:24 pm UTC

Why does his claim necessitate him being town?

If Carlington is scum, then his team likely needs one more mislynch to win the game. His claim indicates that he is an investigative role. So what do you want to do, lynch another player, risk another power role, and then when we're in lylo/mylo tomorrow, Carlington comes in and claims a guilty? Then we potentially throw the game because we banked it on a slot that almost no one has read as town?

I'm lynching Carlington off of play. We have no way to verify if he's town and telling the truth.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Tue May 02, 2017 2:27 pm UTC

Fyi: there is a code in place so that when you type "losethegame" in a post spaced out, it comes out as "lose twenty dollars and my self respect". I find this hilarious and did a double take in my previous post when I tried to use that phrase and it came out differently in the preview.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby mpolo » Tue May 02, 2017 2:29 pm UTC

It's a permanent wordsearch filter on this board. Kind of March Madness the year around. (Though we didn't have March Madness this year.)
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 2:43 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Also want to note that upon re-read GoP's post just above my last one reeks of "let me impugn myself purposefully so people are more likely to buy my excuses for off play as genuine not scummy." Particularly, the post carries the weighted implication that anyone who can't see through his questionable "lazy" or "superficial" play for "what it is" in GoP's opinion (i.e. lazy and non-committal but NOT scummy, according to GoP) is misreading him due to their flawed interpretation. He's subtly placing the burden on us to decipher these actions of his and be able to filter out the "scum seeming" aspects without getting thrown off by it. The fact that he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that it's reasonable to interpret these facets of his posts as inherently scummy pings to me as scum attempting to avoid the question altogether. Basically it seems like an underhanded way to "gaslight" readers into thinking they're dumb for not seeing his post for "what they are" when in reality the observation that these facets that are being pointed out are in fact scummy.


Huh?

I accept I have come across as scummy, mainly due to my laziness. I'm trying to answer questions as directly as I can. I have been participating, not to my usual self, admittedly, but with so many people I am unused to playing with, it was getting hard to get a good read on people.

Yes, people who see me as scummy are misreading me, because I am town. I know you're not going to take my word for it though.

I kinda resent that you think that I am 'gaslighting' people.


First of all, please don't take that post personally as I'm not in any way trying to say that you're some manipulative abuser or something. I understand that the term "gaslighting" has touchy connotation as its a tactic commonly employed by abusive/sociopathic individuals but I'm not at all trying to characterize you as such. The actual act of gaslighting itself is amoral in a vacuum, it's the use of it to make an individual doubt themselves in order to mentally and emotionally cripple them and thus secure more control over them that is pernicious. I'm not trying to suggest that's what is going on here I'm merely using the term desciptively to convey that I feel that the way you're approaching your "scumminess" comes off as trying to get people to doubt the natural inferences they draw from their direct observations. This is a common mafia tactic and I'm only saying that it seems that you're using it, whether consciously or not, here in this game. I hope you wouldn't resent such an accusation, considering you signed up to literally play a game where lying and manipulation is an inherent part of the game, particularly when one rolls scum due to no choice of their own. Please don't read moral judgement or something similar into my analysis. I can assure you it was not my intent to make any such judgment or accuse you of abusive behavior.

Basically all I'm getting at are these quotes of yours:

"Yes, my points against dimochka were superficial. That's because I've been lazy. Not scum."
"I am very non-commital when I have nothing solid to go on."
"Maybe I don't understand what Boomfrog was getting at? I use non-commital language a lot, it was no slip"
"I know I come across as quite annoyed, but I'm really not."
"Yes, I lied. I do that."

When I read these all I see are presentations of ostensibly scummyish behaviors, followed up by some simple handwave explanation basically consisting of "this an idiosyncrasy of mine, pay that scummy ping you're feeling after observing it no mind." That's why I'm saying it feels like gaslighting. You're trying to be upfront about these scummy facets of your play, as if to use that "honesty" to quickly pivot away from the scummyness itself and just convince the reader "I'm just like this so you're wrong for reading this as scummy." Or atleast it just seems that way. But again, not a personal attack at all.

Carlington wrote:I'm Richie Tozier, town's universal backup. That's why my 'no result' claim was the way it was. I wanted townies to think about why I might claim that way and conclude that I had some power that wasn't usable N1, so that they might have some idea we had a backup.


Ugh @ incomplete claims... Is your ability automatic (e.g. first PR to be lynched/NK'd) or do you choose what dead PR you become? Failure to explain your roles full mechanics like this always bothers me... It's so easy for scum to fakeclaim a well known role archetype and just say "I'm a basic X." I'd be more confident in your claim if you had been more specific about what exactly you do.

Also, how in the world are we supposed to deduce that you not taking an action N1 = Role backup? There are myriad roles that can't act on N1, let alone can't take affirmative actions at all. Mafia has tons of passive, non-targeting roles that wouldn't do anything on ANY night. Is it the meta of this forum to neglect to use such roles or something, thus substantially thinning the pool of potential roles you could have been hinting at? Like I'm legitimately curious because I have no idea how anyone would think it was remotely possible that it could be reasonably concluded with any amount of confidence that a claim of "I took no action N1" = we probably have a backup. Which leads me to...

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:That's L-1 I believe. Please nobody else vote for Carlington until everybody has had a chance to contribute further. I don't agree with the lynch anyway, and I believe his claim (I'd guessed that he was backup based on the claim already).


HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU GUESS THAT!? No seriously, how could you have possibly made a guess like that with any kind of confidence? This is actually stunning to me

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Tue May 02, 2017 2:59 pm UTC

I'll let jimbob answer for himself, but for my part the thought process is a combination of meta and other factors. Yes, certain roles appear here more frequently than others.

As for the particular mechanics, I get to choose a power that a dead town player had. However, I can't use the same power two nights in a row unless it's unavoidable, and in general can't use the same power twice unless it's unavoidable. Also, the wording of the PM suggests there are roles I cannot use, as I'm told I'll be given a list to choose from each morning.
Kewangji: Posdy zwei tosdy osdy oady. Bork bork bork, hoppity syphilis bork.

Eebster the Great: What specifically is moving faster than light in these examples?
doogly: Hands waving furiously.

Please use he/him/his pronouns when referring to me.

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LaserGuy
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby LaserGuy » Tue May 02, 2017 3:38 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:I'll let jimbob answer for himself, but for my part the thought process is a combination of meta and other factors. Yes, certain roles appear here more frequently than others.

As for the particular mechanics, I get to choose a power that a dead town player had. However, I can't use the same power two nights in a row unless it's unavoidable, and in general can't use the same power twice unless it's unavoidable. Also, the wording of the PM suggests there are roles I cannot use, as I'm told I'll be given a list to choose from each morning.


I thought that universal backup was a one-shot ability that let you assume the role of a dead player in its entirety. This is quite different.

I'm not sure what to think about the claim itself. Backup is certainly plausible, but it's also frustrating because it's very difficult to verify... there's no paper trail of prior actions, and, especially in this particular incarnation of the role, it's probably quite easy to fake because you can pick results from an assortment of roles. I will have to think on this.


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