The Dark Tower - Mission failure

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#HBC | YOLOSWAG
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 1:47 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Sorry for being slow to get back to you guys. I'm traveling today through next week so I won't be able to post very often. I'm Father Callahan from Salem's Lot and the Dark Tower. I have a holy crucifix that I can use to stun enemies. I am a standard roleblocker except I can't target the same person on consecutive nights. N1 I targeted BoomFrog. N2, I targeted Gopher.

Don't listen to YOLOSWAG. He's scum. I'll prove it after the claims are done.

Who is left for popcorn? Gopher, how about you go next.
Yeah?

I'm really looking forward to this.

SDK, yes, it's unlimited. Some flavor about me riding out to hide on my motorcycle because I'm a coward.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 1:55 am UTC

It's possible jimbob and SDK may be unaligned. The inventor claim and giving it to a partner is pretty out there.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 2:38 am UTC

@SDK

What about my slot caused you to want to use your ability on me? You've flipped on me, I'm wondering why. You'd lynch me first, but you're having difficulty forming a team without Frozen?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 6:17 am UTC

You've been on too many wagons, and never the right ones for the right reasons, it seems. I grew more suspicious of you through Day 2 with your interactions with the mpolo to Carlington to Gopher wagons, but I also know that's just how you play to an extent. I wanted to use the cop shot to make sure which it was. When I then got blocked, I wasn't sure what had blocked me, but I wasn't happy about that and perhaps subconsciously became more suspicious of you just because of that (commuters aren't exactly uncommon, but the fact that you're apparently 100% untargetable certainly doesn't make me feel any better about you). Round that out with your ridiculous play so far toDay and you now top my list. I'll be confirming that tomorrow afternoon. I hope I'll have time to do everyone and a full analysis tomorrow.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri May 05, 2017 7:45 am UTC

Gopher, I may have missed this somewhere, but given you didn't claim a N2 action, I assume your recruit is 1-shot? If not, who did you target last night?

FrozenFlame, that just leaves you now, I believe.

I'm not convinced by either of the HBC claims. Yoloswag's sounds too powerful in the hands of either town or scum. Zyth's is more believable, but I'm not sure I buy his logic behind targeting mpolo. There's something niggling me about it. I need to think about it a bit more though.

Pending FrozenFlame hopefully giving some useful information, I'm leaning towards a scum team of the HBCs and SDK. I guess that would leave LaserGuy or FrozenFlame as SK, although I'm not sure which - probably FrozenFlame if I was pushed, as LaserGuy's just looked too townie to me for an SK.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Fri May 05, 2017 9:14 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Zyth's is more believable, but I'm not sure I buy his logic behind targeting mpolo. There's something niggling me about it. I need to think about it a bit more though.

What's wrong with it?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri May 05, 2017 11:07 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Zyth's is more believable, but I'm not sure I buy his logic behind targeting mpolo. There's something niggling me about it. I need to think about it a bit more though.

What's wrong with it?
Gut feeling mostly at the moment, so I could be unfairly judging you. I need to go back over your D2 comments about mpolo and figure out if it makes sense compared with what you have said since. I'll try to do that this evening (I'm at work atm). Also, the not bothering to check flavour from both you and GoP is surprising to me. I thought GoP had some flavour knowledge, but I may be mis-remembering on that one.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 1:33 pm UTC

SDK wrote:You've been on too many wagons, and never the right ones for the right reasons, it seems. I grew more suspicious of you through Day 2 with your interactions with the mpolo to Carlington to Gopher wagons, but I also know that's just how you play to an extent. I wanted to use the cop shot to make sure which it was. When I then got blocked, I wasn't sure what had blocked me, but I wasn't happy about that and perhaps subconsciously became more suspicious of you just because of that (commuters aren't exactly uncommon, but the fact that you're apparently 100% untargetable certainly doesn't make me feel any better about you). Round that out with your ridiculous play so far toDay and you now top my list. I'll be confirming that tomorrow afternoon. I hope I'll have time to do everyone and a full analysis tomorrow.
If you were town and couldn't formulate a scumteam without frozen, HE would top your list because logically, that's the conclusion a townie would make.

You're hellbent on not voting jimbob and putting yourself in danger instead opting to push me off of easy (mass)claim driven reasoning.

You're probably just scum going for an easy lynch, neglecting to use your follow looks bad too. With all these power roles, you may serve as the scum's rolecop. Why don't you vote for jimbob? He's on my scumteam according to you so it shouldn't end the game.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

Alright so my turn. Based on what I've got, SDK's claim checks out and YOLO looks hella scummy.

I'm David Carver, town JOAT. I have three abilities: Watcher, Tracker, and Commuter. I can use any one of those abilities each night, but I can never use the same ability on consecutive nights.

N1 I targetted Yoloswag with my Watcher ability. The result was that I couldn't focus on the target long enough to get my ability to work. I couldn't tell at the time whether that result was the product of me being roleblocked, or YOLO having some kind of ninja-esque/untargetable power. Given the fact that SDK tried targetting YOLO on a different night (N2) and got a similar no-results result, this strongly suggests to me that my N1 ability failure on YOLO was the result of an innate ability of his. His claim of full time commuter (though broken as fuck) is consistent with our ability failures. Personally though I don't buy that any player in this game would be given a commuter ability like that. It's completely broken and amounts to giving someone the ability to be full time bulletproof/untargettable with absolutely no drawback. I was shocked to hear that commuters in this game don't also leave the game for the following day phase when they choose to protect themselves by commuting at night. I've never played with a commuter without that massive drawback to using their power. To be able to commute to gain full nigth immunity with no cost, and to be able to do that EVERY night, is to me just patently broken and couldn't possibly be a real role. Furthermore, based on the claims we've heard, it seems like the mod has limited a number of our roles by adding the limitation that many powers cannot be used back to back on consecutive nights, mine included. YOLO's claims contradicts that completely and thus stands out. Based on all this, I think YOLO is our likely SK and has some kind of permanent cloaking/untargettable ability, hence the back to back failures of my watching of him and SDKs attempted copping.

N2 I used my tracking ability on SDK, which returned that SDK had targeted YOLO swag that night. This confirms that he did in fact blunder N2 and didn't use both of his abilities that he could have. So though it is possible that for whatever reason SDK deliberately didn't use his second ability N2 like he could have, it at least isn't the case that he did in fact use two separate abilities but is now lying about it. Therefore I'm pretty confident that SDK in fact did honestly neglect to read his ability info thoroughly and messed up, likely in conjunction with the fact that he inadvertently hammered.

So yeah, with all that said, and with LaserGuy confirming that he's a roleblocked and did not target me nor SDK on the nights that we didn't get results, I think it's all but certain that YOLO is anti-town. Personally I think his claimed ability suggests he's the SK and not mafia.

SDK's claims match everything I've gathered from my abilities so I very strongly believe him to be town using that evidence in conjunction with I think pretty solidly townie play through the game overall.

I'm gonna spoiler all the claims in this post just for easy reference:

SDK
Spoiler:
SDK wrote:I'm Red from Shawshank Redemption. I was in jail, now I'm not, something about being transported to a deserted world to protect something called the 'Beam', which I instinctually know to be a good thing (I'm assuming that's one of the beams that supports the Dark Tower, but that's not in my PM). I'm the type to make connections easily and find things out quickly based on what other people need.

I am a Follower. Each night I may target another player to find out what kind of ability s/he used (one of killing, protective, investigative or other). However, I continually need to expand my network, so I can't target the same player on consecutive nights.

I used that ability on FrozenFlame Night 1. He used an investigative ability.

Something else happened Night 1. I got an item, described as my "heart's desire", a pair of sun glasses with X-ray vision capabilities. They gave me a 1-shot cop. So I used those Night 2 instead of my Follower ability. After the events of Day 2, I wanted to target Zyth, but because I screwed up the hammer I wasn't able to change my target from YOLOSWAG. It didn't matter anyway because my ability failed, losing me the glasses in the process. I'm not sure if that's because I was roleblocked, or because YOLOSWAG was untargetable or something, but there you go.


YOLO
Spoiler:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm Johnny Marinville, a commuter. I've used my ability every night.


Jimbob
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I am Ben Hascom from It. I am an Inventor who can create a set of 1-shot items, one each night, and once only per item, that I give to individuals. Specifically, I can create x-ray sunglasses that reveal the true nature of their target (cop), a bottle of mysterious pills (doctor), a special cloak, similar to chameleon-skin (bulletproof), and a battery-operated security camera (watcher). I gave SDK the sunglasses N1 and BoomFrog the cloak N2. Apparently the cloak didn't come into effect until after kills were resolved.

My concern with SDK is that he only claimed to use one action N2. My role PM explicitly says that the items can be used simultaneously with any abilities my target may have, so either he is lying about his N2 action, or he is unable to read PMs received from the mod properly. I doubt the latter, and it builds on my earlier concern, re. last night's hammer.


Zyth
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm Charile McGee, a one shot vig. I didn't do anything N1, GoP approached me with his ability and we are now in a neighbourhood, as stated previously, where he is confirmed town to me. N2 I shot mpolo, after lots of debating with myself, over shooting jimbob who close to the end of D2, I felt had pretty high chance to be scum. I finally decided to shoot mpolo as I was convinced that it'd be the better choice due to GoP telling me in one of his posts in our private chat "you won't hit town at least". With mpolo's flip, I now know that my shot failed on him, which means mafia killed him, or they attempted to kill me, while he used his Guardian Angel ability.


LaserGuy
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm Father Callahan from Salem's Lot and the Dark Tower. I have a holy crucifix that I can use to stun enemies. I am a standard roleblocker except I can't target the same person on consecutive nights. N1 I targeted BoomFrog. N2, I targeted Gopher.


GoP
Spoiler:
Gopher of Pern wrote:I am Mother Abigail, and I am a mason recruiter, and when I recruit someone, they get a confirmation that I am town. I do not get any confirmation on their abilities.

N1 I targeted Zyth, it was a toss up between them and plytho as two of my towniest reads at the time.


Closing thoughts:

@ Laserguy: What other reason do you have that confirms YOLO as scum? You mentioned this in your claim, but didn't explain. More information can't hurt though I think he's all but guaranteed to be anti-town at this point. It's important for us to figure out if he's SK or mafia though because I'm pretty sure at this point that we actually need to lynch MAFIA right now and not the SK, otherwise we kill the SK but then mafia just instant endgame us. Also, can you elaborate why you chose to block the people you did?

@ Zyth: Did you have any indication in your role PM that mpolo's role was in the game? That someone was trying to protect you? Any information like that at all?

GoP's role actually sounds like a friendly neighbor (Target player: player will received mod confirmation that you are town) as opposed to mason recruiter (Target player: if player is town, player joins you in a private masonry allowing outside thread communication between the two of you. If player is anti-town, you die. [This role, as I've seen it, often allows the recruiter to recruit once per night on a permissive basis, but results in the entire masonry dying if any non-town player is targeted for recruitment, forcing the leader to carefully weigh the risk-reward of continuing to recruit after one or two successful recruitments]), so I'm a bit concerned about your title claim though that can easily be chalked up to differences between moderators and how they describe/label roles. Not sure if this is worth the attention I'm giving it but wanted to bring it to everyone's attention and see what the xkcd natives here think.

Zyth's claim is weak and unconfirmable as fuck. Definitely one of the scummiest claims after YOLO.

Need to do some review of this game and digest all the claims. Now that we've got all the info on the table, let's put this shit together and go on a 2 out rally.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Fri May 05, 2017 3:03 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:@ Zyth: Did you have any indication in your role PM that mpolo's role was in the game? That someone was trying to protect you? Any information like that at all?

No

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 3:17 pm UTC

Ok thanks for the quick answer Zyth, good to know.

Also just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention:

mpolo wrote:I'm just going to claim and get it over with. I am completely neutral - I want another player to survive the game. If that player dies, I will also leave the game as a loser. If I am lynched or killed, I can still win if my target lives. I had a one-shot night protect that was only usable in favor of my target, but I used that on N1. I have no setup information regarding the alignment of the person I'm keeping alive, and I'm obviously not going to reveal who it is.


Sabrar wrote:mpolo is dead, he was Andy McGee, Independent.
Role: Andy McGee (Firestarter)
In your youth you signed up for a supposedly harmless experiment to earn easy money and have regretted that decision ever since. You've made the 'mistake' of marrying another survivor of that experiment and now the government is extremely interested in your daughter who shows even more promise in her supernatural abilities than any of you did previously. They've already killed your wife and kidnapped Charlie and yourself to further study the limits of your powers. With some cunning you managed to get away but heard worrying reports about your daughter's mental health. You managed to track her down and want to be reunited with her, however you're cautious in approaching her as you have no idea whether her captivity caused any permanent damage.
Abilities:
- You would do anything to protect Charlie, even die for her. You're a Guardian Angel for [REDACTED] whose role is Charlie McGee (no confirmation whether they are Town/scum/indie, nor what their ability is). You have a 1-shot Bodyguard ability, once per game you may choose to activate it and if during the night [REDACTED] would be killed you will die instead.
- You know your daughter better than anyone else and can easily avoid her attention. You are immune to any action she performs.
Alignment: You are Independent and win if [REDACTED] is alive at the end of the game.
Additional info: Should [REDACTED] die while you're still alive you will leave the game as well as there will be no sense in staying with a bunch of strangers whose goals you do not share.


These two pieces of information (bolded and underlined) together prove that mpolo was killed by someone other than Zyth, and that it couldn't have been the result of him using his GA ability correctly and dying as a result. Therefore, Zyth was NOT the target of a kill last night, unless mpolo lied about using his one shot protect on N1, which he didn't really have reason to. With his GA ability blown N1, mpolo couldn't have died as a result of a correct GA protect N2. According to modpost, mpolo was immune to any action Charlie takes, thus Zyth's alleged attempted vigging of mpolo would have been ineffective. Therefore, mpolo MUST have been killed by the SK or mafia last night. Probably the SK to prevent the potential co-winner indy from kingmakering the scum into a shared victory (since that would be easier than kingmakering a shared SK-GA victory).

So yeah, more to think about.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 4:16 pm UTC

@frozen

Do you think jimbob is scum for claiming a role whose utility is so similar to yours? You mentioned getting grimy feelings from Laser/jimbob D1, do you think you had something there but let it go as the game progressed?

I really doubt BOTH you and jimbob are town with such similar powers.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 4:44 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@frozen

Do you think jimbob is scum for claiming a role whose utility is so similar to yours? You mentioned getting grimy feelings from Laser/jimbob D1, do you think you had something there but let it go as the game progressed?

I really doubt BOTH you and jimbob are town with such similar powers.
I still feel like one of them has to be scum and am leaning jimbob, but at this point picking any two players has an exceptionally high chance of containing scum between the two considering from my perspective 4/6 potential picks are anti-town.

I don't think jimbob is scum because of his claim though. This game seems to be full of duplicated powers. We had both a tracker and watcher in this game, both of which my role partly duplicates. You're allegedly a commuter which I also duplicate. Carlington was a universal back which creates more duplication. It's seeming pretty clear to me that the town's power this game is just a "layering" so to speak of the distribution of many similar/same powers, instead of a wide variety of different ones of varying degrees of power. So no, jimbob's claim alone doesn't set off alarm bells for me.

Right now I'm thinking Zyth and jimbob are two of our three mafia and you are our SK. It's conceivable that you're also mafia and I'm wrong to assume you're SK because you have some perman BP/untargettable power. But then I have a hard time placing the real SK. Laser claiming town roleblocker is iffy to me because it's so easy to just claim town roleblocker as a scum roleblocker.

But really a lot of that is just PoE because unless GoP and Zyth are both scum, then GoP is "confirmed" town and I have a strong town read on SDK. That leaves you four to be the combo of anti-towns, and at this point I'm just trying to not hit the SK today so town actually has a chance. If we lynch the SK today town just auto loses in 3-3 parity unless someone is hiding a vig kill. If we lynch scum today and night goes perfectly for town (scum kills SK, SK kills scum) we come into D4 3/1 which is MYLO and not an awful situation to go no lynch and then play the 2-1 endgame with an extra night of possible info gathering. If night goes another direction, like mafia and SK both kill town, town is fucked anyway at 1-2-1. If mafia kills town but SK kills mafia we have a D4 with 2-1-1 which is kingmakery unless town can asspull some kind of protection against the N4 kill to go to 2-1 endgame after a successful antitown D4 lynch.

All that is basically a long was of saying we have to get mafia today to even stand a chance so I'm having a really hard time deciding if you're the SK or if its Zyth, You're top candidate by play and by roleclaim + night info we have on you. Zyth is top candidate by flavor a la being Charlie and whatnot.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 6:09 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:
SDK wrote:You've been on too many wagons, and never the right ones for the right reasons, it seems. I grew more suspicious of you through Day 2 with your interactions with the mpolo to Carlington to Gopher wagons, but I also know that's just how you play to an extent. I wanted to use the cop shot to make sure which it was. When I then got blocked, I wasn't sure what had blocked me, but I wasn't happy about that and perhaps subconsciously became more suspicious of you just because of that (commuters aren't exactly uncommon, but the fact that you're apparently 100% untargetable certainly doesn't make me feel any better about you). Round that out with your ridiculous play so far toDay and you now top my list. I'll be confirming that tomorrow afternoon. I hope I'll have time to do everyone and a full analysis tomorrow.
If you were town and couldn't formulate a scumteam without frozen, HE would top your list because logically, that's the conclusion a townie would make.

You're hellbent on not voting jimbob and putting yourself in danger instead opting to push me off of easy (mass)claim driven reasoning.

You're probably just scum going for an easy lynch, neglecting to use your follow looks bad too. With all these power roles, you may serve as the scum's rolecop. Why don't you vote for jimbob? He's on my scumteam according to you so it shouldn't end the game.

Are you even reading my posts? Do I seem ready to vote for anyone at this point when I've repeatedly said that I intend to reread the game? If I end up reading jimbob as a sure scum, I'll vote him then and make you happy, but not until that point.

Are you so sure of a scum team that you're ready to end the game, and if so, what is that scum team? So far you haven't done much of anything today except keep pressuring people to vote.

Also, I'm assuming you're talking about yourself when you say I'm going for an easy lynch. Why are you calling your lynch easy?


#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I really doubt BOTH you and jimbob are town with such similar powers.

Why do you say they're so similar? Even if we ignore the fuctional difference of using a power yourself vs. giving them away, the spread of abilities is actually quite different, only overlapping directly in the watcher. Your and Frozen's claim overlap to the same degree. Why not bring that up as well?



I'm pretty sure YOLOSWAG must be mafia, not SK, based on his play today. SK needs to slow things down right now too and YOLO is way too bloodthirsty. SK's not even close to winning yet, so the bloodthirst shouldn't be kicking in for them quite yet.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 7:06 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:You're probably just scum going for an easy lynch, neglecting to use your follow looks bad too. With all these power roles, you may serve as the scum's rolecop. Why don't you vote for jimbob? He's on my scumteam according to you so it shouldn't end the game.


The point here re: SDK's role being a great fit as scum rolecop is a good one. However I doubt he's actually scum based on what happened in the game. If he was rolecop, why aren't I dead? He found out I had an investigative role N1, which usually suggests watcher/tracker/cop. This makes me a prime kill target for N2. Now obviously two very strong investigative roles were dead by the time N2 rolls around for scumSDK to actually do anything based on his N1 result, ostensibly out of pure luck for the anti-town players (I mean, sure I guess they could have hard read bessie as cop but that's kind of a stretch IMO given what was actually discussed D1, and dimochka being tracker was just an unfortunately punishing mislynch), but ultimately in scumSDKs position I'd be gunning for the other investigative roll I KNEW was in the game, guessing it'd probably be the watcher. The fact that I was not NK'd N2 I think makes SDK look pretty town.

Additionally, it's important to consider that if SDK truly is a rolecop faking a dieted down version that only provides general categories of roles, he wouldn't have been able to accurately fake my N1 action. I'm a JOAT, and not all of my abilities are investigative. If he rolecopped me, it would have ostensibly returned JOAT to him. With that info, he certainly wouldn't be able to guess what type of action I took N1 with any degree of certainty. So the fact that in his claim he specifically said I took an INVESTIGATIVE action, which I did (watcher), shows that at minimum his power returns for him what he claims it does: type of power used. So unless SDK's fake claim game was suuuuper on point, and he deduced based on the fact that I said I had info on two players pre-mass claim that I must have used an investigative ability N1, and then faked that result based on that deduction, I really don't think SDK is faking his power. Granted, an ability that finds out what type of powers people are using can be very handy for a scum team to help them find good NK targets, but ultimately, all of this leads me to believe SDK's telling the truth.

SDK wrote:I'm pretty sure YOLOSWAG must be mafia, not SK, based on his play today. SK needs to slow things down right now too and YOLO is way too bloodthirsty. SK's not even close to winning yet, so the bloodthirst shouldn't be kicking in for them quite yet.


I agree that YOLO has turned his YOLOness up to 11 this day phase and that doesn't seem to fit what the SK should be going for here, but man, it is REALLY hard for me to accept that a mafia member has perma untargettable like our results all but prove he has. That seems realllllly overpowered for anyone other than an SK or other solo indy to have. I also just generally feel like YOLO has been genuinely scumhunting this game which an SK can do no problem.

YOLO calling Zyth out on having info re: GoP reallllllly bugs me and screams orchestrated as fuck but at the same time I feel like if they were mafia and had private chat they would have just agreed that Zyth would out his GoP info without provocation from YOLO. Why create the obvious connection to one another in the thread if you don't have to ya know? Like it feels like too obvious to be scum coordination, but that's WIFOM as fuck. I'm gonna lose my mind if its YOLO/Zyth/GoP mafia team. Like holy shit I'd feel so goddamn played.

@ Jimbob: Can you explain your rationale behind your picks for your inventions? I'm interested to hear why you picked the inventions you did and why you picked the recipients that you did.

@ Laserguy: Same as above, why did you target who you did?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

I have a guess for the scumteam, yes, I'll post it after Laserguy comes out with how he can prove I'm scum.

Regarding me being the easy lynch, I understand a commuter claim is easy to latch onto and that my suggestion of a jimbob/SDK crossvote is unorthodox to the point it'd be another easy reason for scum to push me.

I'm actually baffled that you think I'm mafia considering my claim and you being unable to target me as a commuter. My role is too powerful to be mafia.

jimbob's and Frozen's roles are similar. Jimbob can make people cop/watcher/doc/bulletproof. Frozen can track, watch, and commute. Track and commute aren't EXACTLY the same as a cop and bulletproof, but they have similar functions in acting as investigative roles as well as making someone unable to be targeted. They're in the same "families" of roles.

I do have a couple of questions though: why have you written off Zyth as non-mafia? And you tried to discourage boomfrog from pushing Zyth and even flat-out said you weren't interested in lynching him. Why are you saying you wanted to switch your cop investigation to him?

I'm going to step back from engaging you so much outside of that til I see what you find on a reread. My aim was to get you and jimbob to crossvote but I know you won't commit right now and I don't want to tunnel in LYLO.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 7:10 pm UTC

The above post was intended for SDK.

Frozen, I understand where you're coming from and find it fair. I'm pretty much just waiting on Laserguy at this point.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 7:20 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I have a guess for the scumteam, yes, I'll post it after Laserguy comes out with how he can prove I'm scum.


Getting really impatient waiting for Laserguy on this lol, especially with it bottlenecking you giving us your scumteam reads

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:jimbob's and Frozen's roles are similar. Jimbob can make people cop/watcher/doc/bulletproof. Frozen can track, watch, and commute. Track and commute aren't EXACTLY the same as a cop and bulletproof, but they have similar functions in acting as investigative roles as well as making someone unable to be targeted. They're in the same "families" of roles.
This is fair but we have to remember that unless jimbob and SDK are scum together, jimbob's ability to give items is confirmed. So if anything, if these two roles are too similar to both be real, that makes me look like the guy making up my role. I know I'm town though, so with jimbob's power looking legit based on a separate player's testimony, this role occlusion argument I think falls flat, or atleast you can understand it does from my perspective.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I do have a couple of questions though: why have you written off Zyth as non-mafia? And you tried to discourage boomfrog from pushing Zyth and even flat-out said you weren't interested in lynching him. Why are you saying you wanted to switch your cop investigation to him?
Very interested to hear this explained as well.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 7:32 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm actually baffled that you think I'm mafia considering my claim and you being unable to target me as a commuter. My role is too powerful to be mafia.

Is it? I disagree. I've actually used untargetability on mafia in the past (though never in a game with an SK), and if you are actually a commuter like you claim, then choosing to do so means you couldn't perform the mafia night kill or whatever other factional abilities you might have. If you end up being the last mafia alive, for example, you effectively have no abilities if that's the case. Why do you think it's too powerful, especially given the large number of powerful investigative roles town has had this game? Mafia must have some abilities to fight back against that.

Frozen, please answer that question as well.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I do have a couple of questions though: why have you written off Zyth as non-mafia?

I haven't necessarily, but I didn't get that feeling from him. I'm working through players right now, so just hold onto your pants.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:And you tried to discourage boomfrog from pushing Zyth and even flat-out said you weren't interested in lynching him. Why are you saying you wanted to switch your cop investigation to him?

I don't remember discouraging BoomFrog, but I said I wasn't interested specifically because I was going to switch my cop shot to him. Confirming that Zyth was town would also prove Gopher town. With Carlington as my scummiest read otherwise, that seemed like a great option to move forward.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm going to step back from engaging you so much outside of that til I see what you find on a reread. My aim was to get you and jimbob to crossvote but I know you won't commit right now and I don't want to tunnel in LYLO.

Yep, SDK said I'm rushing too much which only makes sense coming from mafia. Better slow it down.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 8:04 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm actually baffled that you think I'm mafia considering my claim and you being unable to target me as a commuter. My role is too powerful to be mafia.

Is it? I disagree. I've actually used untargetability on mafia in the past (though never in a game with an SK), and if you are actually a commuter like you claim, then choosing to do so means you couldn't perform the mafia night kill or whatever other factional abilities you might have. If you end up being the last mafia alive, for example, you effectively have no abilities if that's the case. Why do you think it's too powerful, especially given the large number of powerful investigative roles town has had this game? Mafia must have some abilities to fight back against that.

Frozen, please answer that question as well.


Well my rationale stems from my presumption that YOLO isn't actually an unrestricted commuter like he says he is, and is instead just passively untargetable with some other anti-town abilities on the side. The idea of a commuter who can commute every night with no drawback just seems too braindead design wise and too powerful to be a real role to me, so I chalked it up to be a fakeclaim designed to be consistent with the fact that no one would be able to get results targeting YOLO all game, a fact he would know having the ability and knowing that he would have to come up with a claim to get around it.

I don't think that it's so broken that it's strictly an impossibility barring bastard modding, but I definitely feel its more appropriate to give to a solo-indy than a member of the mafia. You are right though when you say that this game presents with a large number of investigative abilities, so an untargetable power fits well as a scumteam balance mechanism.

Ultimately I'm not 100% convinced that YOLO is the SK, and if Im sending that message I want to clarify that that is not my stance. It's just that his claim and play together fit together as SK very well in my mind, and I'm hesitant to lynch YOLO because I truly believe lynching the SK here equals game over and free scum victory. But you're right that there is a very real possibility that YOLO is actually a mafiat.

SDK wrote:I don't remember discouraging BoomFrog, but I said I wasn't interested specifically because I was going to switch my cop shot to him. Confirming that Zyth was town would also prove Gopher town. With Carlington as my scummiest read otherwise, that seemed like a great option to move forward.
Probably the towniest answer you could have given. Relieved to read this. As convinced as ever that you're town.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 8:13 pm UTC

I'm going to start with LaserGuy because I haven't thought about him in forever.

LaserGuy started the game with four votes on his wagon. His response to that seemed fine, though he and jimbob needled each other about it for a bit. Seems legit.

Ended up coming down on jimbob as scum, but voting for dimochka. Maybe less legit - I didn't see a distinct difference in his read on them at the time.

Works hard to make his reads lists solid, and they look good (unlike last game - I caught him as scum in Diablo based partly on this). Seems to show a townie mindset in his reads and thought process.

Slots BoomFrog in as his second scummiest read, which seems okay. He's moving away from jimbob as scum, but I think that makes sense - I was thinking the same at the time as jimbob started feeling better through Day 1.

Day 2 reads list... Reads are overall pretty good. His read on YOLOSWAG is weak (townie without justification, though he had justification in his previous reads list). jimbob scum read explained well. Of those left alive, I see no difference in treatment between the players. Based on that alone, LaserGuy is likely not mafia.

He's asking questions around the table here. His reads change in response to new information, not in response to the flow of the game.

LaserGuy wrote:I'm thinking I'm a bit out of my depth :?

I'm a bit vexed about the hammer business. I didn't get to check back in to the game until late last night, and by that point the hammer was already long since down.

Laser, could you please explain what you meant by both of these statements?

Overall, by behavior, LaserGuy is a strong town read. He's almost certainly not mafia, and even SK I'd have a tough time believing, though I suppose it's possible.

Roleblocker claim is always a bit tricky, but we have no flips or claims of any proactive defensive roles at all this game. Even the JOAT and inventor claims did not include anything like this (jailer or loss of powers or whatever). I like the "I can't target the same person on consecutive nights" addition here as well, so feel pretty comfortable with my town read here. We'll see if that can hold up to PoE once I'm done...
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 8:17 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm actually baffled that you think I'm mafia considering my claim and you being unable to target me as a commuter. My role is too powerful to be mafia.

1. Is it? I disagree. I've actually used untargetability on mafia in the past (though never in a game with an SK), and if you are actually a commuter like you claim, then choosing to do so means you couldn't perform the mafia night kill or whatever other factional abilities you might have. If you end up being the last mafia alive, for example, you effectively have no abilities if that's the case. Why do you think it's too powerful, especially given the large number of powerful investigative roles town has had this game? Mafia must have some abilities to fight back against that.

Frozen, please answer that question as well.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I do have a couple of questions though: why have you written off Zyth as non-mafia?

2. I haven't necessarily, but I didn't get that feeling from him. I'm working through players right now, so just hold onto your pants.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:And you tried to discourage boomfrog from pushing Zyth and even flat-out said you weren't interested in lynching him. Why are you saying you wanted to switch your cop investigation to him?

3. I don't remember discouraging BoomFrog, but I said I wasn't interested specifically because I was going to switch my cop shot to him. Confirming that Zyth was town would also prove Gopher town. With Carlington as my scummiest read otherwise, that seemed like a great option to move forward.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm going to step back from engaging you so much outside of that til I see what you find on a reread. My aim was to get you and jimbob to crossvote but I know you won't commit right now and I don't want to tunnel in LYLO.

4. Yep, SDK said I'm rushing too much which only makes sense coming from mafia. Better slow it down.
1. SDK, are you REALLY trying to argue that it's likely the mod would put an untargetable mafia with an SK? You said yourself you haven't done that, and that's because it's ridiculous. What mod would put a mafia team and SK then be like, "You know, I'm going to give the mafia untargetable here and not the SK/town"? If there's an untouchable mafia, what does the SK have? Nothing? Mafia at least have numbers and various abilities, SK's almost just never get nothing to help them survive, that's poor modding.

2. You said so earlier. If something changed, then I didn't catch it.

3. Fair.

4. I laughed.

As much as I love this waltz, I'm not completely convinced you're scum. But I've turned a blind eye to you this game and wanted to engage you. I DO think there's at least one between you and jimbob but considering him giving you the cop power, I think you guys are disconnected.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 8:24 pm UTC

YOLO, I have no idea what your ability actually is, so it's difficult to speculate on how it fits into game balance. As claimed it's too powerful on town too, so where does that leave us? With you on no team at all because your claim can't fit? No. It just means you're lying.

FrozenFlame wrote:I truly believe lynching the SK here equals game over and free scum victory.

Yes, this is true. I'm hoping I can determine the lot of them from my read through here. I agree that there's a chance YOLOSWAG is SK, so if someone ends up being confirmed mafia, I'll be taking that route as well.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 8:27 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Roleblocker claim is always a bit tricky, but we have no flips or claims of any proactive defensive roles at all this game.
?

We have a flipped doctor. I'm not getting how you stressed how vital it is for mafia to have abilities to combat town, and now you're using a player's role which does just that as part of your reasoning to justify a town read. If you think Laser is town because of his play then that's one thing but I wanted to point out the doc flip.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 8:33 pm UTC

The next thing I wanted to tackle was Zyth and Gopher, but I'm not sure the most effective way to approach this... Gopher is fucking scummy all the way through this damn game.

So let's start with Zyth, Charlie McGee... So mpolo's death is bugging me... Actually, let's start with this.

Gopher, in your chat did you tell Zyth to kill mpolo? Why?

I'll finish up with these guys later.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 8:40 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:
SDK wrote:Roleblocker claim is always a bit tricky, but we have no flips or claims of any proactive defensive roles at all this game.
?

We have a flipped doctor. I'm not getting how you stressed how vital it is for mafia to have abilities to combat town, and now you're using a player's role which does just that as part of your reasoning to justify a town read. If you think Laser is town because of his play then that's one thing but I wanted to point out the doc flip.

There are two types of defensive roles - those that target the killer and those that target the victim. It's rare in my experience to see a fully powered game like this with no examples of the type that target the killer on townside (jailer being probably the most common of those). Therefore, I think it's likely that our one claimed role that does so is on townside.

But yes, my town read of LaserGuy is colouring that to a great extent, of course. This is only his second game, and I caught him as scum easily in the first, so... I'm mostly just saying that his roleblocker claim doesn't concern me, not that it proves him town.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri May 05, 2017 9:01 pm UTC

Quick check-in to respond to this:
FrozenFlame wrote:@ Jimbob: Can you explain your rationale behind your picks for your inventions? I'm interested to hear why you picked the inventions you did and why you picked the recipients that you did.
The N1 cop item seemed like a fairly straightforward thing to do. It's the most powerful item in my opinion of the four that I have, and the sooner I get it out, the less chance my target had of getting killed before giving a result, based purely on random chance. It made sense to give to one of my townier reads, since the item in the hands of scum wasn't going to be much use. I was tempted to give it to bessie, who would probably have used it on me, I thought, to clear my name, but in the end I thought that getting a result on somebody else would be more useful to everyone, so I steered away from her. SDK had been read as scummy by one or two people, so I gave it to him, because he was less likely than plytho to be killed (pretty much everybody had plytho high up the list).

I chose the bulletproof cloak as my second item, because with two kills (excluding any town vig shots) going around, if I gave the watcher item out, my target would have to survive two nights in a row to get any useful info (i.e. they would not have useful info until D4). That meant that I'd have to make sure I'd picked a good target, who wouldn't likely be targeted by the night kills for two nights in a row, but who was pretty likely to be town. I suspected that I wouldn't succeed in choosing somebody like this. Giving the pills also meant that I had to trust my target to have good reads and protect somebody who was going to be the night kill that night, so the cloak was clearly the better of the two (the effect didn't apply for just one night, and only relied on my own reads to be useful). I chose BoomFrog, because I had him as my towniest read at the time, and thought that he was a likely night kill target, giving he seemed to be getting some good reads going. I'd have given it to GoP, but I didn't see his town confirmation until hammer had already fallen.

I've not had a chance to reread Zyth as I promised I would yet. That'll likely have to wait until tomorrow now. Sorry.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby LaserGuy » Fri May 05, 2017 9:25 pm UTC

Sorry about the delays guys. As I said, I've been traveling so it's hard to put together anything of substance for most of the day. Okay, first I'll lay out my case against YOLO (and his partner, or possibly partners). In a separate post I'll try to respond to some more recent business.

So I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and realized that I've been making a very basic mistake. I've been reading through player-by-player, noting who they've been talking to and how they've been voting. The problem that I've realized is that this doesn't account for the fact that scum are actively colluding. Reading one player at a time wasn't giving me the whole story, because I wasn't seeing how people were posting in relation to each other in real time. So I went back to the start of the thread and starting looking for patterns of behavior, and a few players suddenly stood out to me as group: #HBC | YOLOSWAG, #HBC | Zyth and jimbobmacdoodle


Here's what I saw:

D1 - jimbob feels "off". This was read by several players, including mpolo, GoP, and bessie. I think there's two likely reasons for this. The first is, as plytho astutely pointed out on D1, that jimbob hasn't played scum in over a year, and is uncomfortable with it in general. I think the other reason that he felt off is due to being forced to act in somewhat unnatural ways due to his daychat interactions. In particular, my feeling is that YOLO and jimbob had planned from D1 for YOLO to bus jimbob all game.

First, Zyth and YOLOSWAG build up the dimochka wagon. Votes come within a few posts of each other, neither with any justification at the time.

The wagon gets up to 5, then YOLOSWAG starts the bus here. The pressure is firmly on dimochka at this point, but YOLO is going to let off for a bit.

YOLOSWAG flips his vote to jimbob here for no stated reason.

jimbob passes dimochka in the vote totals, then ties it himself.

6 posts later, YOLO switches back to dimochka, pushing the lynch back to the townie and preventing the wagon from rolling over jimbob. His defense of this move is very half-hearted.

Lynch goes through against dimochka, scum team kills plytho who is one of the only players reading YOLO and jim as both scummy.


Play on D2 starts with YOLO bussing jimbob. Here's a vote with no content, followed by a very lazy back and forth between jimbob and YOLO. Seriously, does this pass for scumhunting in your part of the world YOLO? YOLO never follows up on this exchange.

YOLO is absent for a few days. FrozenFlame put out a vote on mpolo:
jimbob jumps in
followed quickly by Zyth

During this period, Zyth reads YOLO is town based on no evidence. He has also never, in the entire game, put a solid read on jimbob, IIRC.

When he starts posting again, YOLO quickly moves on to other targets without putting any further pressure on jimbob. This post is interesting because he starts looking "outside the major D1 wagons" for lynch candidates. Makes sense because he doesn't want to draw attention to the fact that the scum team is on the dimochka train. YOLO adds to the pressure on mpolo in this post. Again, note here how he's simultaneously calling jimbob scummy without putting any effort into doing anything about it.

Following this, Zyth votes for mpolo.
A few posts later, here's YOLOSWAG joining in with no justification
And here's jimbob joining the party shortly after that.

It's interesting to note here how consistently YOLOSWAG mentions his scum read on jimbob but 1) never really makes a case for him being scummy, and 2) votes with him pretty consistently, across multiple wagons. In fact, the only wagons that they haven't both been on are the D1 jimbob wagon and the wagon with Carlington, who jimbob was reading as town. If you are town, why would you keep voting with your scummiest read? Why wouldn't you bother to pressure your scummiest read? This behaviour makes no sense for a townie. Look at the interactions above between YOLO and jimbob in comparison to bessie vs. jimbob. bessie hounded jimbob for most of D1, and jimbob was obviously uncomfortable and defensive. YOLO's pushes are lazy and pointless, and jimbob's responses are unconcerned. jimbob knows that YOLO isn't a threat, and is responding accordingly.

mpolo claims indie, so they jump off the wagon. Here's Zyth switching to Carlington
A few posts later, here's YOLOSWAG does the same. This pretty much secures the lynch on Carlington.

Near the end of the day, there's this weird interaction between the three of them and GoP.

At two votes on GoP, jimbob starts moving the wagon that way.
The very next post, YOLOSWAG outs Zyth's connection with him
and two posts later Zyth rolls over and gives him up, even though GoP was in no danger at that point, but he crushes the counter-wagon anyway. I'm not certain what the goal of this play was, beyond getting GoP's connection to Zyth out in the open. At a guess, it may be that they were hoping to put a target on GoP's head for the SK, but I'm not sure. Or Zyth is the SK and just doesn't care about Gopher flipping town.

The day ends with YOLO bussing jimbob again pointing to jimbob's record despite the fact that their voting patterns are virtually identical.

Carlington gets lynched as planned.

What's team scum doing D3? Trying to lynch SDK.

Here's jimbob getting the ball rolling.
Then YOLO wants to force the vote to jimbob/SDK, knowing that GoP prefers SDK to jimbob.
It's clear here that YOLO doesn't have a case against jimbob. He just wants to force town to go after SDK.

jimbob is also advocating for going after SDK. Yes, he's pushing back against YOLO here too, but obviously nobody was ever going to agree to the crossvote. It was just to focus the pressure on SDK. They put out a plausible case for it being either jimbob or SDK and hope one of us (Gopher) sides with them on SDK without drawing attention to themselves. And, hey, look, mission fucking accomplished.

It's clear if you ignore the constant bussing of jimbob by YOLO that these two are working together. It's very clever... they spend at most of their posts talking about people that they find scummy (eg. YOLO bussing jimbob), while quietly moving their votes around from townie to townie as a bloc. I'm guessing jimbob has the weakest power of the team (certainly if he's false inventor and YOLO is ascetic or commuter, YOLO would want to stay alive). I certainly feels like Zyth is part of the team as well, except that balance-wise, it seems extremely unfavorable to town for there to be three mafia, an SK, and an anti-town indie (mpolo), especially as that would mean we apparently have no available killing powers.

At this point, I think it's more likely that the scum team is just jimbob and YOLOSWAG. Zyth as serial killer with a guardian angel feels about right to me in terms of the balance.

As far as claims go, Zyth's sounds absolutely absurd to me. A player claims to be a guardian angel, and you aren't even going to take the time to check if they might be targeting you? And then you go and try to kill that player instead of scum? If Zyth really is town, he may have thrown the game by using his vig kill in this fashion. My feeling is that this is just covering his tracks though.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby LaserGuy » Fri May 05, 2017 9:38 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:@ Laserguy: What other reason do you have that confirms YOLO as scum? You mentioned this in your claim, but didn't explain. More information can't hurt though I think he's all but guaranteed to be anti-town at this point. It's important for us to figure out if he's SK or mafia though because I'm pretty sure at this point that we actually need to lynch MAFIA right now and not the SK, otherwise we kill the SK but then mafia just instant endgame us. Also, can you elaborate why you chose to block the people you did?


A few things here.

I wanted to wait to post my case against jimbob and YOLO until after you had claimed, both to see if you had evidence in support of my claim, and also to see if you had a killing power. I was waffling between a two-scum and three-scum team for awhile, but since you didn't have a kill, I think two is much more plausible.

BoomFrog I was reading scummy at the end of D1. I didn't care much for his shenanigans, and after his reveal post, his play didn't really impress me. I was on a plane at the time that Zyth outed Gopher as town, and hammer fell long before I could change my action. At the time I wrote those Gopher was looking very scummy, so I thought roleblocking him would be worthwhile.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Fri May 05, 2017 9:41 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle

I forgot about that "FrozenFrog" comment. Not 100%, but points to jimbob as not being buddies with FrozenFlame.

Starts the game talking about setup, which is not uncommon around here. The only non-setup related discussion is him responding to me and LaserGuy, both direct times responding to direct questions. Both times needling the question giver with a pointed question in return. I don't think I caught that before. Not a fan of that - shows over defensiveness. (does the same with plytho later)

He continues doing nothing but responding for a time. Continues being overly picky about LaserGuy and the whole "concern for my vote" thing, yet ends up calling LaserGuy town (well, no, more wiggle room than that - "nothing screams "scum" to me"). I don't like it.

Votes Carlington, and defends dimochka from my case. 48 hours later, he's on the dimochka wagon with reasoning of his own. The reason for the change is solid enough, but the timing is suspect (I think I previously read this as self-defensive, and it was, but jumping from one town wagon to another as that wagon is building is also opportunistic).

First reads list puts in a lot of work.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:FrozenFlame: Clearly dislikes the style of set up here. Spends most of his opening post introducing himself and discussing this. Jumps on early LaserGuy wagon. Switches to voting plytho (but meant to vote dimochka). Really doesn't like jesters. Explains LaserGuy vote as an attempt to generate a reaction. Likes SDK's case on dimochka.
...

FrozenFlame: Three big posts with actually very little useful content in them. It is D1 still, but there has been an awful lot of discussion that he could post his opinions on. Hopefully that will come in the promised post. On the scummy side due to fluff-filled posts, but could easily move either way with further content.
Should check how he falls on Frozen later. This gives distance while leaving plenty of wiggle room to go one way or the other.

jimbob's reasoning for suspecting YOLOSWAG at this point feel very similar to his reasons for thinking Zyth is town.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Yoloswag: I'm happy that he was prodding people earlier with questions, but less so that he wasn't making any attempt to put down his own thoughts, until recently, and then only on me and dimochka (even then barely on dimochka), and then mostly only after others appeared to have concerns with us. Leaning slightly scum for this reason.

@Yoloswag - what is it you find suspect about dimochka? As far as I can see you haven't actually said why you find him suspicious.

Zyth: I like how Zyth is asking lots of questions but posting plenty of his own opinions, which seem quite reasonble and justified for the most part. I think he could do with looking at a few other players though. Probably Town.
If I recall correctly, I was reading both as town at the time for similar reasons, but jimbob's uneven response here doesn't seem natural. Could be OMGUS, or he could be YOLOSWAG's or Zyth's buddy (or both) - should check interactions with both of them specifically.


jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Interesting that LaserGuy has taken a different view of bessie's tunnelling to everyone else (i.e. it's put her as neutral, whereas everyone else views her as town, I think). Not sure what to make of that just yet, and I'm curious to know what pinged him about her that he hasn't disclosed.
This is later, but I think shows jimbob as being pretty clearly not aligned with LaserGuy. jimbob's treatment of him makes me feel better about Laser.


Day 2 jimbob is on to other targets in BoomFrog, mpolo and Carlington. He mentions wanting to take a look at YOLOSWAG early on, but that never really happens. jimbob and YOLOSWAG interact a lot, but it never seems to go anywhere! jimbob picks at him, but it's always "slightly scummy" as his resulting read and never really feeling like he wants to go anywhere with it.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Urrggh, I'm definitely having trouble picking out any strong scum candidates. I'll need to have another look Tuesday evening, with the extension.

This didn't bother me at the time, but now it looks a lot like frustrated scum. No apparent wagons have revealed themselves, but shortly after this post he follows others onto the mpolo wagon, followed by again following others onto the Gopher wagon.



Not quite enough time to close this out, but overall jimbob is looking like a good candidate for mafia. Based on his side of the interactions at least, Gopher and LaserGuy are unlikely to be buddies. YOLO's interactions are common, but weak, making him the most likely scumbuddy. Zyth and Laser I'd have to look into, but either could be the third in this case. Pretty sure jimbob is scum though. I'll complete this Monday, but feel free to ask me questions over the weekend.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri May 05, 2017 9:48 pm UTC

Wow, I applaud the effort Laserguy. Why do you feel there's only two mafia? Is it just because of your confidence in me/jimbob?

Currently, I'm looking at a jimbob/Zyth/Laserguy team.

I'm not crazy about SDK pushing me, but I'm willing to sheep frozen's townread. I think GoP's play has been scummy, but I'm having trouble seeing him fabricate his claim as scum.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby LaserGuy » Fri May 05, 2017 9:54 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Wow, I applaud the effort Laserguy. Why do you feel there's only two mafia? Is it just because of your confidence in me/jimbob?


If there's a third mafia, it's Zyth. Balance-wise, I don't like that setup, as it puts us at 8-3-1-1, with both indies being anti-town, since mpolo would side with Zyth. If nobody is lying and town has no kills available (since Zyth is scum in this scenario), then town needs to play basically perfectly to win. I think that 9-2-1-1 with no kills for town, daychat for mafia, and both indies anti-town feels much more fair to me. I can't rule out the former setup, but I would definitely complain to Sabrar about it post-game if that's what it turned out to be.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby Gopher of Pern » Fri May 05, 2017 9:57 pm UTC

I did say early on that Zyth should kill mpolo, but I was actually unaware that Zyth was Charlie. They never actually gave their name to me. Which, in hindsight, is a major fuck up on my part. I knew about their power. I would have preferred them to go after YOLO, but they were adamant that YOLO was town.

Yes, I am a neighbourizer. I just hadn't played with the role, so I morphed it into mason in my head. I can use it every night. I targeted laserguy last night, but I was blocked from doing so. Flavour seemed to suggest roleblocking, so I kinda believe laserguy.

Here is the claims list from Frozenflame, with cross confirmations:

SDK
Spoiler:
SDK wrote:I'm Red from Shawshank Redemption. I was in jail, now I'm not, something about being transported to a deserted world to protect something called the 'Beam', which I instinctually know to be a good thing (I'm assuming that's one of the beams that supports the Dark Tower, but that's not in my PM). I'm the type to make connections easily and find things out quickly based on what other people need.

I am a Follower. Each night I may target another player to find out what kind of ability s/he used (one of killing, protective, investigative or other). However, I continually need to expand my network, so I can't target the same player on consecutive nights.

I used that ability on FrozenFlame Night 1. He used an investigative ability.

Something else happened Night 1. I got an item, described as my "heart's desire", a pair of sun glasses with X-ray vision capabilities. They gave me a 1-shot cop. So I used those Night 2 instead of my Follower ability. After the events of Day 2, I wanted to target Zyth, but because I screwed up the hammer I wasn't able to change my target from YOLOSWAG. It didn't matter anyway because my ability failed, losing me the glasses in the process. I'm not sure if that's because I was roleblocked, or because YOLOSWAG was untargetable or something, but there you go.


Frozen confirms SDK visited YOLO N2


YOLO
Spoiler:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm Johnny Marinville, a commuter. I've used my ability every night.


SDK confirms untargetable N2, Frozenflame confirms untargetable N1


Jimbob
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I am Ben Hascom from It. I am an Inventor who can create a set of 1-shot items, one each night, and once only per item, that I give to individuals. Specifically, I can create x-ray sunglasses that reveal the true nature of their target (cop), a bottle of mysterious pills (doctor), a special cloak, similar to chameleon-skin (bulletproof), and a battery-operated security camera (watcher). I gave SDK the sunglasses N1 and BoomFrog the cloak N2. Apparently the cloak didn't come into effect until after kills were resolved.

My concern with SDK is that he only claimed to use one action N2. My role PM explicitly says that the items can be used simultaneously with any abilities my target may have, so either he is lying about his N2 action, or he is unable to read PMs received from the mod properly. I doubt the latter, and it builds on my earlier concern, re. last night's hammer.


SDK confirmed receiving item.




Zyth
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm Charile McGee, a one shot vig. I didn't do anything N1, GoP approached me with his ability and we are now in a neighbourhood, as stated previously, where he is confirmed town to me. N2 I shot mpolo, after lots of debating with myself, over shooting jimbob who close to the end of D2, I felt had pretty high chance to be scum. I finally decided to shoot mpolo as I was convinced that it'd be the better choice due to GoP telling me in one of his posts in our private chat "you won't hit town at least". With mpolo's flip, I now know that my shot failed on him, which means mafia killed him, or they attempted to kill me, while he used his Guardian Angel ability.


LaserGuy
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm Father Callahan from Salem's Lot and the Dark Tower. I have a holy crucifix that I can use to stun enemies. I am a standard roleblocker except I can't target the same person on consecutive nights. N1 I targeted BoomFrog. N2, I targeted Gopher.


GoP confirms being roleblocked N2



GoP
Spoiler:
Gopher of Pern wrote:I am Mother Abigail, and I am a mason recruiter, and when I recruit someone, they get a confirmation that I am town. I do not get any confirmation on their abilities.

N1 I targeted Zyth, it was a toss up between them and plytho as two of my towniest reads at the time.


Zyth confirms daychat.



FrozenFlame
Spoiler:
FrozenFlame wrote:Alright so my turn. Based on what I've got, SDK's claim checks out and YOLO looks hella scummy.

I'm David Carver, town JOAT. I have three abilities: Watcher, Tracker, and Commuter. I can use any one of those abilities each night, but I can never use the same ability on consecutive nights.

N1 I targetted Yoloswag with my Watcher ability. The result was that I couldn't focus on the target long enough to get my ability to work.

N2 I used my tracking ability on SDK, which returned that SDK had targeted YOLO swag that night.


Before the claims, I was convinced of a SDK, jimbob, YOLO scum team, with Zyth as SK.

Afterwards...

With scum able to coordinate their claims, so that each of them can sort of confirm each other, I'm looking at SDK, Frozenflame and YOLO as scum buddies. One (or more) are lying about YOLO's untargetableness (Yes, that's a word), maybe it was just one shot, or maybe he's just the killer.

I just can't get over the amount of mistakes SDK has made this game if they are town.

I will be back later with a summary of actions, and my thoughts on them.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sat May 06, 2017 12:56 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:As far as claims go, Zyth's sounds absolutely absurd to me. A player claims to be a guardian angel, and you aren't even going to take the time to check if they might be targeting you? And then you go and try to kill that player instead of scum? If Zyth really is town, he may have thrown the game by using his vig kill in this fashion. My feeling is that this is just covering his tracks though.

I've already explained this, but here's why again. I don't care for flavor; they can be used to throw off players who delve too much into flavor knowledge. It's always entirely possible that Andy McGee could be the Guardian Angel for someone other than Charlie McGee. If you were a vig, would you shoot a claimed indy(when there is a known SK to be running around) or would you hit a player who could possibly be mafia?
LaserGuy wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Wow, I applaud the effort Laserguy. Why do you feel there's only two mafia? Is it just because of your confidence in me/jimbob?


If there's a third mafia, it's Zyth. Balance-wise, I don't like that setup, as it puts us at 8-3-1-1, with both indies being anti-town, since mpolo would side with Zyth. If nobody is lying and town has no kills available (since Zyth is scum in this scenario), then town needs to play basically perfectly to win. I think that 9-2-1-1 with no kills for town, daychat for mafia, and both indies anti-town feels much more fair to me. I can't rule out the former setup, but I would definitely complain to Sabrar about it post-game if that's what it turned out to be.

FYI, I'm a claimed one-shot vig.

SDK wrote:jimbobmacdoodle
Not quite enough time to close this out, but overall jimbob is looking like a good candidate for mafia. Based on his side of the interactions at least, Gopher and LaserGuy are unlikely to be buddies. YOLO's interactions are common, but weak, making him the most likely scumbuddy. Zyth and Laser I'd have to look into, but either could be the third in this case. Pretty sure jimbob is scum though. I'll complete this Monday, but feel free to ask me questions over the weekend.

Laserguy is unlikely to be mafia with jimbob but laserguy and I both could be the 3rd?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Sat May 06, 2017 1:54 am UTC

That should be "Zyth and Frozen".
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sat May 06, 2017 3:03 am UTC

SDK wrote:That should be "Zyth and Frozen".

Does the "I have a hard time piecing together any scum team that does not include Frozen" still stand? If no, did it change due to jimbob's reread? If you had to shoot someone right now, who would it be and why?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Sat May 06, 2017 1:23 pm UTC

I was thinking YOLOSWAG was likely the SK if anything, which has changed over the course of this day. At the moment I think he and jimbob are scum, and I could conceive of you being the third, so I suppose my read through of jimbob did change that. If I had a free shot I had to use now I'd shoot YOLO. I'm feeling 100% sure he's not town, but that has yet to be confirmed. If that shot used up the lynch, though, then I'd consider shooting jimbob instead, but I'd want to finish my homework first.

What about you, Zyth?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sat May 06, 2017 1:59 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I was thinking YOLOSWAG was likely the SK if anything, which has changed over the course of this day. At the moment I think he and jimbob are scum, and I could conceive of you being the third, so I suppose my read through of jimbob did change that. If I had a free shot I had to use now I'd shoot YOLO. I'm feeling 100% sure he's not town, but that has yet to be confirmed. If that shot used up the lynch, though, then I'd consider shooting jimbob instead, but I'd want to finish my homework first.

What about you, Zyth?

Thank you. How confident are you in jimbob? Enough to vote for him right now?
I assume your list is something like this:
Town
GoP
Laserguy
Frozen
Zyth
Jimbob
YOLO*possible SK
Scum
Yes? Seeming as you have such a strong town read on Laserguy, lynching anyone from your list below him would net scum, no? If neither yolo nor myself are the SK, who would it be? Lastly, what do you think of laserguy's case on his supposed scum team? Looking at your scum reads, am I right to assume that you agree with it?

I'll answer your question later.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Sabrar » Sat May 06, 2017 7:51 pm UTC

Deadline is in 2 and a half days. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals: None

4 to hammer, tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby LaserGuy » Sat May 06, 2017 8:58 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:As far as claims go, Zyth's sounds absolutely absurd to me. A player claims to be a guardian angel, and you aren't even going to take the time to check if they might be targeting you? And then you go and try to kill that player instead of scum? If Zyth really is town, he may have thrown the game by using his vig kill in this fashion. My feeling is that this is just covering his tracks though.


I've already explained this, but here's why again. I don't care for flavor; they can be used to throw off players who delve too much into flavor knowledge. It's always entirely possible that Andy McGee could be the Guardian Angel for someone other than Charlie McGee. If you were a vig, would you shoot a claimed indy(when there is a known SK to be running around) or would you hit a player who could possibly be mafia?


Look at mpolo's claim here:
mpolo wrote:I know who I am trying to keep alive (player name and character name, not power or alignment). I suspect that that person does not know that I am on their team (but I could be wrong). If I name claimed, they would likely know that I am their protector, but I'm not sure how much that information would tip the setup, so I will not do that for now.


Sure, it's possible that Andy McGee could be Guardian Angel for someone other than Charlie, but if it was a random character from a different story, why would he have said this? I don't know this particular story either, but I looked it up and it's immediately obvious that the only person he could be referring to here is Charlie.

Would I be shooting at an indie who would most likely be helpful to me, personally, and would actively support my side, given our situation in D2? Of course not. It's insane. If I didn't have a good scumread at the time, I'd probably withhold. If you are in fact town (which I doubt) can you imagine some way in which that vig kill might have come in handy here in D3, given our present circumstances?


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