The Dark Tower - Mission failure

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat May 06, 2017 9:38 pm UTC

Reread of Zyth as promised:
Spoiler:
D1 - Thinks SK and 8/3/1/1 setup pretty crazy. Votes dimochka with no reasoning. At this point, Yoloswag and SDK had voted for dimochka. Plytho newbie town, null all others. 12 hours later, gives reasoning for voting dimochka, after being prodded and admits to similar reasons to SDK voting dimochka (fluff-filled posts, overly defenesive). Puts SDK as town given matching opinion on dimochka. Prods dimochka about his town-read on BoomFrog. Asks a couple of people for reads and opinions. Held back on giving vote reasons waiting for SDK's grilling of dimochka. Responds to dimochka about fluff. Has issues reading LaserGuy. Finds him passive aggressive, but offers other comments. Null read on him in the end. BoomFrog looks like scum trying to lie low. Finds the general consensus on BoomFrog interesting.

D2 - Baffled by dimochka's meta-read on BoomFrog. Thinks Mafia killed plytho, SK bessie. Has mpolo, Carlington, LaserGuy and me on his list, pre re-read, with LaserGuy and I more neutral. Votes mpolo (second to do so behind FrozenFlame and before his GA claim). Reasoning was that he was being non-committal and had very weak reads. Seems to agree with Yoloswag's list of {GoP, Carlington, mpolo and me} as scum, with the exception of GoP (hinted at only at this point). Explains to Carlington why he found dimochka's reads of BoomFrog confusing. Later clarifies that he had me and LaserGuy on his list by process of elimination (all others were town reads). Outright states GoP is town (I missed this the first time I read it before Yoloswag pointed it out). Finds it interesting that SDK is showing up as town on his scummiest reads' reads list, and scum on his townier reads' list. Happy to lynch either Carlington or mpolo. Switches vote to Carlington with no further explanation, following mpolo's claim. Doesn't care for Carlington's claim and continues to support lynching him. Confirms GoP as Town. Reading Boomfrog, Yoloswag, FrozenFlame and SDK as Town, and unsure about me and LaserGuy due to our playstyles. Happy to be lynched instead of GoP.

D3 - Wouldn't mind a mass-claim. Happy for GoP to choose first claimer. All scum reads have been wrong so far. Thinks mpolo died due to Mafia. Quizzes SDK on why he has doubts on GoP, but thinks Zyth is unlikely Mafia. Claims Charlie McGee, 1-shot vig. Decided to shoot mpolo, because "at least he wouldn't hit town"; had considered to shoot me. Flip means that Mafia probably killed mpolo, or targeted Zyth with mpolo protecting him. Chooses LaserGuy as next claimer. No flavour knowledge and refused to do research about it. Shot mpolo to ensure he wasn't the SK. Asks me what's wrong with his claim. Prods SDK a lot about his reads, including fishing for a vote on me.
Having re-read Zyth in his entirety, I'm definitely not particularly comfortable with him. In retrospect, I'm not sure why I read him as Town on his early D1 posts, because as I look back on it, I don't see it, since he was sheeping other people's thoughts on dimochka, and not doing much in the way of scum hunting, as far as I can tell. His sheeping of others' opinions continues to some extent on D2, when he simply agrees with Yoloswag's reads list. He also talks a lot about how baffling dimochka's read on BoomFrog was, which I can't see a particular purpose to, and his thoughts about where SDK sat in various people's reads list could almost be a case of trying to get some mud to stick on him. He never really explained why he found Carlington scummy either, and could easily be simply following a general scum read from other players on him.

Going back to my doubts about his choice of mpolo as his target, they still stand. I'll accept that he didn't bother looking up whether mpolo might be targeting him from flavour. He chose to kill a claimed neutral on the off chance that he might be the SK, whom he himself seemed to feel was likely neutral and not SK, based on the fact that he switched his vote from mpolo after the GA claim. He of course had the choice of withholding for another day, as well, with a greater certainty at that point (based on random-chance if nothing else) of hitting scum. Overall, I get the feeling that he wasn't trying to hit Mafia at all, based on his reasoning, and in particular this explanation directed at LaserGuy:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:If you were a vig, would you shoot a claimed indy(when there is a known SK to be running around) or would you hit a player who could possibly be mafia?
The way I read this is that he actually knew that mpolo wasn't mafia, which he could only know if he were mafia himself, although admittedly this might just be because of the statement being made in retrospect following mpolo's flip.

Another thing that's really bothering me is that he has not interacted basically at all with some of the remaining players. Specifically, he responded to two questions from FrozenFlame, one with a "No" and the other was not game-related. He briefly mentions that he has FrozenFlame as Town on a couple of occasions, and recently asked SDK about his FrozenFlame read. That's it. His town reads on FrozenFlame aren't even explained (although that does seem to be in common with other town reads for the most part). Meanwhile, his interactions with Yoloswag are just as bad: he said literally nothing about him on D1, asks 1 question to clarify Yoloswag's scum list on D2, along with listing him as Town with several other players, and has said literally nothing about him on D3. My conclusion: Zyth is probably scum-buddies with Yoloswag. I cannot explain why there is so little interaction between them otherwise, especially given the fact that they know each other from elsewhere. I expect they'd be chatting away to each other constantly. Oh wait, maybe they are and it's in scum chat?

@Zyth - how do you explain your lack of interaction with Yoloswag and FrozenFlame?

In contrast to these two, he has regularly interacted with SDK, posted repeated thoughts about me and LaserGuy, and asked us all questions as well since early in the game. His interactions and comments on GoP are also worth looking at, since GoP is only confirmed Town if Zyth is Town. As with Yoloswag, he doesn't say anything about or to GoP D1. He posts about GoP D2 to confirm that he is Town (initially indirectly), and he has similarly said very little about GoP since. That being said, I'm less concerned about this, because of the self-professed Town confirmation.

I'll take a look at FrozenFlame, SDK, LaserGuy, and GoP later, probably in that order, to see which of them is the third team member. I already took a look at Yoloswag, but will probably look briefly again to try to identify interactions from Yoloswag's direction.

Current thinking of a scum team pending further rereads is Yoloswag, Zyth, and one of FrozenFlame or GoP. At a push, I'd say that SDK is more likely to be the SK than anybody else currently, but I'm really not confident in that at the moment.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun May 07, 2017 1:51 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:As far as claims go, Zyth's sounds absolutely absurd to me. A player claims to be a guardian angel, and you aren't even going to take the time to check if they might be targeting you? And then you go and try to kill that player instead of scum? If Zyth really is town, he may have thrown the game by using his vig kill in this fashion. My feeling is that this is just covering his tracks though.


I've already explained this, but here's why again. I don't care for flavor; they can be used to throw off players who delve too much into flavor knowledge. It's always entirely possible that Andy McGee could be the Guardian Angel for someone other than Charlie McGee. If you were a vig, would you shoot a claimed indy(when there is a known SK to be running around) or would you hit a player who could possibly be mafia?


Look at mpolo's claim here:
mpolo wrote:I know who I am trying to keep alive (player name and character name, not power or alignment). I suspect that that person does not know that I am on their team (but I could be wrong). If I name claimed, they would likely know that I am their protector, but I'm not sure how much that information would tip the setup, so I will not do that for now.


Sure, it's possible that Andy McGee could be Guardian Angel for someone other than Charlie, but if it was a random character from a different story, why would he have said this? I don't know this particular story either, but I looked it up and it's immediately obvious that the only person he could be referring to here is Charlie.

Would I be shooting at an indie who would most likely be helpful to me, personally, and would actively support my side, given our situation in D2? Of course not. It's insane. If I didn't have a good scumread at the time, I'd probably withhold. If you are in fact town (which I doubt) can you imagine some way in which that vig kill might have come in handy here in D3, given our present circumstances?

Admittedly, I somehow managed to miss that part where he said that. Regardless, I did no research whatsoever on flavor.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Reread of Zyth as promised:
Spoiler:
D1 - Thinks SK and 8/3/1/1 setup pretty crazy. Votes dimochka with no reasoning. At this point, Yoloswag and SDK had voted for dimochka. Plytho newbie town, null all others. 12 hours later, gives reasoning for voting dimochka, after being prodded and admits to similar reasons to SDK voting dimochka (fluff-filled posts, overly defenesive). Puts SDK as town given matching opinion on dimochka. Prods dimochka about his town-read on BoomFrog. Asks a couple of people for reads and opinions. Held back on giving vote reasons waiting for SDK's grilling of dimochka. Responds to dimochka about fluff. Has issues reading LaserGuy. Finds him passive aggressive, but offers other comments. Null read on him in the end. BoomFrog looks like scum trying to lie low. Finds the general consensus on BoomFrog interesting.

D2 - Baffled by dimochka's meta-read on BoomFrog. Thinks Mafia killed plytho, SK bessie. Has mpolo, Carlington, LaserGuy and me on his list, pre re-read, with LaserGuy and I more neutral. Votes mpolo (second to do so behind FrozenFlame and before his GA claim). Reasoning was that he was being non-committal and had very weak reads. Seems to agree with Yoloswag's list of {GoP, Carlington, mpolo and me} as scum, with the exception of GoP (hinted at only at this point). Explains to Carlington why he found dimochka's reads of BoomFrog confusing. Later clarifies that he had me and LaserGuy on his list by process of elimination (all others were town reads). Outright states GoP is town (I missed this the first time I read it before Yoloswag pointed it out). Finds it interesting that SDK is showing up as town on his scummiest reads' reads list, and scum on his townier reads' list. Happy to lynch either Carlington or mpolo. Switches vote to Carlington with no further explanation, following mpolo's claim. Doesn't care for Carlington's claim and continues to support lynching him. Confirms GoP as Town. Reading Boomfrog, Yoloswag, FrozenFlame and SDK as Town, and unsure about me and LaserGuy due to our playstyles. Happy to be lynched instead of GoP.

D3 - Wouldn't mind a mass-claim. Happy for GoP to choose first claimer. All scum reads have been wrong so far. Thinks mpolo died due to Mafia. Quizzes SDK on why he has doubts on GoP, but thinks Zyth is unlikely Mafia. Claims Charlie McGee, 1-shot vig. Decided to shoot mpolo, because "at least he wouldn't hit town"; had considered to shoot me. Flip means that Mafia probably killed mpolo, or targeted Zyth with mpolo protecting him. Chooses LaserGuy as next claimer. No flavour knowledge and refused to do research about it. Shot mpolo to ensure he wasn't the SK. Asks me what's wrong with his claim. Prods SDK a lot about his reads, including fishing for a vote on me.
Having re-read Zyth in his entirety, I'm definitely not particularly comfortable with him. In retrospect, I'm not sure why I read him as Town on his early D1 posts, because as I look back on it, I don't see it, since he was sheeping other people's thoughts on dimochka, and not doing much in the way of scum hunting, as far as I can tell. His sheeping of others' opinions continues to some extent on D2, when he simply agrees with Yoloswag's reads list. He also talks a lot about how baffling dimochka's read on BoomFrog was, which I can't see a particular purpose to, and his thoughts about where SDK sat in various people's reads list could almost be a case of trying to get some mud to stick on him. He never really explained why he found Carlington scummy either, and could easily be simply following a general scum read from other players on him.

Going back to my doubts about his choice of mpolo as his target, they still stand. I'll accept that he didn't bother looking up whether mpolo might be targeting him from flavour. He chose to kill a claimed neutral on the off chance that he might be the SK, whom he himself seemed to feel was likely neutral and not SK, based on the fact that he switched his vote from mpolo after the GA claim. He of course had the choice of withholding for another day, as well, with a greater certainty at that point (based on random-chance if nothing else) of hitting scum. Overall, I get the feeling that he wasn't trying to hit Mafia at all, based on his reasoning, and in particular this explanation directed at LaserGuy:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:If you were a vig, would you shoot a claimed indy(when there is a known SK to be running around) or would you hit a player who could possibly be mafia?
The way I read this is that he actually knew that mpolo wasn't mafia, which he could only know if he were mafia himself, although admittedly this might just be because of the statement being made in retrospect following mpolo's flip.

Another thing that's really bothering me is that he has not interacted basically at all with some of the remaining players. Specifically, he responded to two questions from FrozenFlame, one with a "No" and the other was not game-related. He briefly mentions that he has FrozenFlame as Town on a couple of occasions, and recently asked SDK about his FrozenFlame read. That's it. His town reads on FrozenFlame aren't even explained (although that does seem to be in common with other town reads for the most part). Meanwhile, his interactions with Yoloswag are just as bad: he said literally nothing about him on D1, asks 1 question to clarify Yoloswag's scum list on D2, along with listing him as Town with several other players, and has said literally nothing about him on D3. My conclusion: Zyth is probably scum-buddies with Yoloswag. I cannot explain why there is so little interaction between them otherwise, especially given the fact that they know each other from elsewhere. I expect they'd be chatting away to each other constantly. Oh wait, maybe they are and it's in scum chat?

@Zyth - how do you explain your lack of interaction with Yoloswag and FrozenFlame?

In contrast to these two, he has regularly interacted with SDK, posted repeated thoughts about me and LaserGuy, and asked us all questions as well since early in the game. His interactions and comments on GoP are also worth looking at, since GoP is only confirmed Town if Zyth is Town. As with Yoloswag, he doesn't say anything about or to GoP D1. He posts about GoP D2 to confirm that he is Town (initially indirectly), and he has similarly said very little about GoP since. That being said, I'm less concerned about this, because of the self-professed Town confirmation.

I'll take a look at FrozenFlame, SDK, LaserGuy, and GoP later, probably in that order, to see which of them is the third team member. I already took a look at Yoloswag, but will probably look briefly again to try to identify interactions from Yoloswag's direction.

Current thinking of a scum team pending further rereads is Yoloswag, Zyth, and one of FrozenFlame or GoP. At a push, I'd say that SDK is more likely to be the SK than anybody else currently, but I'm really not confident in that at the moment.

:shock: With numbers of 5-3-1, why would you, as a vig NOT shoot?! What reason would there be for a vig to shoot at someone who's maybe mafia, over a claimed indy when there is an SK? I asked you this previously. Do I need to explain my lack of interaction with Yolo and Frozen? I had a lack of interaction with you too, what questions did I ask you? What thoughts did I post about you? How much did I interact with laserguy? I had one post about laserguy. Do you actually believe what you're saying here? I don't interact with other people if I don't see a need to, I'd prefer taking a backseat and giving out my thoughts on the game since I don't have as much time to play nowadays, where I could be much more active in the past(2-3 years ago when I still played) and was able to constantly interact with people without needing to catch up all the time. Also, If we know each other from elsewhere, why would we be constantly chatting away to each other...? I don't get that part.

I'd like for everyone to post 2 of their town reads, please, thank you.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun May 07, 2017 2:12 am UTC

@Jimbob
If you had to make a choice now, who would you lynch between Yolo and myself?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun May 07, 2017 3:53 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:With numbers of 5-3-1, why would you, as a vig NOT shoot?
Those numbers there confuse me, given that we were presumably at 4-3-1-1 (presumably in that we don't know for certain that there are 3 mafia, although everybody except LaserGuy agrees that this is probably the case), and you wouldn't have know the exact balance anyway, given that Carlington had not yet flipped. Regardless, the answer is simple: the next day you have a lot more information to play with and can more easily identify a scum candidate. We weren't at the point where the vig had to kill successfully in order for Town to win.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:What reason would there be for a vig to shoot at someone who's maybe mafia, over a claimed indy when there is an SK? I asked you this previously.
Because the claimed indie might well be just that, and could be supporting Town? Why use the vig on a possible SK, who might well not be the SK, and not hold off for another day to have a clearer target?
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Do I need to explain my lack of interaction with Yolo and Frozen? I had a lack of interaction with you too, what questions did I ask you? What thoughts did I post about you? How much did I interact with laserguy? I had one post about laserguy. Do you actually believe what you're saying here?
By interaction, I also include commenting on and responding to that player, and also asking about that player. Very early on on D1, you explicitly called me null and LaserGuy newbie-ish ("very mechanical player"). You asked Carlington about his reads on me v bessie. You asked LaserGuy about his reads on SDK and I. You then did a more detailed post on LaserGuy (which I assume is the one you were referring to). You identify both LaserGuy and I as people to look back over on D2 (as more neutral reads). You admit to not having a very good read on me. You explained that you had me and LaserGuy as in the neutral/scummy end by process of elimination. You repeat your statement about finding it difficult to read me (and adding LaserGuy again). Recently, you challenged me on my concern with your action. Finally, in your last few posts in discussion with SDK, you asked for his comments on me and LaserGuy, as well as responding to LaserGuy's concern about your target choice. In summary, no you haven't interacted directly with LaserGuy or I all that much (your first question directed at me specifically was D3), but you have spoken about us quite a bit more than you did with the others I previously mentioned. To conclude, yes I do believe what I'm saying. I wouldn't be saying it otherwise.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Also, If we know each other from elsewhere, why would we be constantly chatting away to each other...? I don't get that part.
Maybe this is me inferring onto people what I'd tend to do, but if I knew a subset of people within the game better than others, I feel that I'd be talking with them more, which you have shown no signs of attempting to do, whereas you have been quite happy to prod most other players to a greater or lesser extent, seeking their opinions on different things throughout the game.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:@Jimbob
If you had to make a choice now, who would you lynch between Yolo and myself?
I'm happy to lynch either you or Yoloswag, since I think you are a team together, and have a roughly equal scumminess level. If it came to having to pick only one, I'd probably pick you, because assuming that scum!Yoloswag is not completely lying about his ability (unlikely due to the claimed no results on him), chances are that you have a more useful ability to scum.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'd like for everyone to post 2 of their town reads, please, thank you.
Prior to re-reads, which I'm about to start on, my two towniest reads are LaserGuy and FrozenFlame. GoP isn't there because if Zyth is scum, GoP could well be too (I'd like to think that my D2 read of him wasn't completely off), but I wouldn't lynch GoP without seeing Zyth flip first. Note that apart from LaserGuy, I don't have any people clearly in my mind as Town at this moment.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun May 07, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:With numbers of 5-3-1, why would you, as a vig NOT shoot?
Those numbers there confuse me, given that we were presumably at 4-3-1-1 (presumably in that we don't know for certain that there are 3 mafia, although everybody except LaserGuy agrees that this is probably the case), and you wouldn't have know the exact balance anyway, given that Carlington had not yet flipped. Regardless, the answer is simple: the next day you have a lot more information to play with and can more easily identify a scum candidate. We weren't at the point where the vig had to kill successfully in order for Town to win.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:What reason would there be for a vig to shoot at someone who's maybe mafia, over a claimed indy when there is an SK? I asked you this previously.
Because the claimed indie might well be just that, and could be supporting Town? Why use the vig on a possible SK, who might well not be the SK, and not hold off for another day to have a clearer target?
#HBC | Zyth wrote: :shock: With the numbers of 4-3-1-1, wouldn't that make it ALL the more reason to shoot, since, you know, it's practically lylo? You know, the claimed indy could be lying? What good reason is there to leave an enigma of a slot running around as a town vig? You let him leave and you allow the SK to run free, casting all blame onto mpolo as the SK.
By interaction, I also include commenting on and responding to that player, and also asking about that player. Very early on on D1, you explicitly called me null and LaserGuy newbie-ish ("very mechanical player"). You asked Carlington about his reads on me v bessie. You asked LaserGuy about his reads on SDK and I. You then did a more detailed post on LaserGuy (which I assume is the one you were referring to). You identify both LaserGuy and I as people to look back over on D2 (as more neutral reads). You admit to not having a very good read on me. You explained that you had me and LaserGuy as in the neutral/scummy end by process of elimination. You repeat your statement about finding it difficult to read me (and adding LaserGuy again). Recently, you challenged me on my concern with your action. Finally, in your last few posts in discussion with SDK, you asked for his comments on me and LaserGuy, as well as responding to LaserGuy's concern about your target choice. In summary, no you haven't interacted directly with LaserGuy or I all that much (your first question directed at me specifically was D3), but you have spoken about us quite a bit more than you did with the others I previously mentioned. To conclude, yes I do believe what I'm saying. I wouldn't be saying it otherwise.

:shock: I mean, if a few off handed comments count as interaction to you, wouldn't I have interacted with Yolo and Frozen too? Me asking laserguy about his reads on SDK and yourself was because it was never explicitly stated in his post, wouldn't it make sense to confirm what his reads were? Why do I feel that you're trying to BS and that you don't actually believe what you're saying?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun May 07, 2017 4:22 pm UTC

Gah, I messed up my post. One of my replies ended up in a quote too >.<

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun May 07, 2017 5:50 pm UTC

Reread of FrozenFlame:
Spoiler:
Day 1: Opening post with various comments about setup, especially not liking Survivor or SKs. Votes LaserGuy, jumping third on the wagon. Asks about the likeliness of killing third-party factions. Joke(?) votes plytho (meant to be dimochka). More comments about other third-party factions (jester, cult). Responds to SDK re. abductor role. Jumped on LaserGuy wagon to see what reactions were generated. Unvotes plytho to correct mistake, but holds off switching dimochka due to him being at L-1. Fan of SDK's case for scum!dimochka. Massive reads list, with scum written separately to the rest. Town: Yoloswag (mostly meta), SDK (urchin-style posting, and saying dimochka claim), bessie (for putting herself out there, unlikely from scum), BoomFrog (his comments on newbie plytho), Zyth (seems genuinely engaged, gut mostly). Confident me vs LaserGuy was not scum v scum. Scum: LaserGuy (tone and sounding on edge), mpolo (lots of hedging and no commitment), dimochka (defensive, rolling over too easy).

Day 2: Comments on flips. Mafia/SK crossfire would be a boon. Thinks scum killed bessie, SK killed plytho. Challenges Carlington about claim, and agrees with my concerns about it. Explains his "accommodating" comment with reference to Carlington, in response to LaserGuy. Admits needing to re-evaluate LaserGuy (and BoomFrog?) following LaserGuy's "unofficial vote" explanation. Votes mpolo after getting scummy vibes, and seems to consider him the SK. Reading BoomFrog hard as Town. Surprised by GoP's certainty. Leaning Town on LaserGuy for similar thoughts to his own. Yolo pinging Town. Agrees mpolo is likely indie, but hard to determine if it is an SK gambit. Would like to call the bluff, but feels that he can't. Supports a GoP or Carlington lynch. Finding SDK slightly scummy and uncertain about me being voted for by two confirmed town. Switches vote to Carlington for pressure. Thinks GoP might be deliberately trying to get people to doubt their reads on him through his play style claim. Annoyed by Carlington's partial claim. Surprised by my guess about Carlington's ability. Pressures Carlington more about his claim. Suggests we insist Carlington target a specific player. Asks about bulletproof SKs with reference to crossfire. Agrees with SDK that Carlington could be telling the truth about his claim. Asks more about SK trends with regards to immunity to various action types. Thinks that it's either the two HBCs and GoP, or Carlington, me and somebody else, based on my vote patterns. Uncertain about the possible HBC + GoP gambit.

Day 3: Discusses results of flips and causes. Up for mass claim. Thinks flavour-wise Charlie clearly could be SK. Wants to claim late. Doesn't like Yoloswag's cross-vote suggestion. Doesn't understand Yoloswag's desire to have cross-vote before mass claim. Explains his comments re. cross-vote. Claims JOAT with watcher, tracker and commuter. Thinks Yolo's full commuter claim is suspicious and that he is likely the SK. SDK's N2 claim matches up with the info he has. Pretty certain that we need to lynch Mafia. Wants LaserGuy to further explain his reasons for Yoloswag being scum. Asks Zyth for any information about mpolo's protection. Zyth's claim is weak and scummiest after Yoloswag. Doesn't think mpolo lied about when he used his night action and that mpolo was the target of the SK. Thinks one of LaserGuy or me are scum, more likely me, though not bothered by my claim. Thinks Zyth and I are two mafia and Yolo SK, or possibly mafia. Thinks SDK unlikely scum. Further explains his SK read on Yoloswag. Asks for mine and LaserGuy's rationale on targets.
Nothing strikes me as really scummy about FrozenFlame at all, and he's putting a lot of effort into his reads. It feels like a little too much for scum, although I could easily be wrong on that count. He does seem to be genuinely scum-hunting, and although his reads have been off, so have mine, and for that matter, most of town's (hence the two mislynches). I have no issues with his claim, and it doesn't feel like a false claim - watcher, tracker and commuter are a rather unusual combination and doesn't seem like something scum would fake, especially combined with the being able to use them all multiple times. JOATs around here usually have a selection of four or so different actions, and commuter isn't one of those I've seen before in that setup. Overall, yeah, sounds like an odd fake claim if it is.

My one big gripe is that he's said virtually nothing about Zyth, one of my scummy reads, until Zyth's claim, and even then, not much since. I think there's an outside possibility of him being the SK still, since he talked about it quite a lot, but I don't see the SK being so certain about Yoloswag being the SK.

So, to reinforce my earlier comment, FrozenFlame is definitely one of my towniest reads so far. Re-reads of other players still to come, but I have to go out for a bit soon.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:With the numbers of 4-3-1-1, wouldn't that make it ALL the more reason to shoot, since, you know, it's practically lylo? You know, the claimed indy could be lying? What good reason is there to leave an enigma of a slot running around as a town vig? You let him leave and you allow the SK to run free, casting all blame onto mpolo as the SK.
You couldn't have known that this would be the next day's setup spec when you submitted your kill. And you missed my point. Say SDK had targeted mpolo last night and got the result that he didn't kill, that would have been useful info that would mean you weren't killing a pro-town indie (that's just a hypothetical example to illustrate my point). You could have waited and had more information to make a better choice, with the biggest loss being that SK!mpolo might kill one more Town member, when they would potentially be trying to hit scum, and helping town in the bargain.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I mean, if a few off handed comments count as interaction to you, wouldn't I have interacted with Yolo and Frozen too? Me asking laserguy about his reads on SDK and yourself was because it was never explicitly stated in his post, wouldn't it make sense to confirm what his reads were? Why do I feel that you're trying to BS and that you don't actually believe what you're saying?
But that's my point. You didn't even make off-handed comments about them, beyond the tiny bits I mentioned, especially if you compare it with what you said about LaserGuy.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun May 07, 2017 9:43 pm UTC

Reread of SDK:
Spoiler:
Day 1: Fourth player to jump on early LaserGuy wagon. 3 Mafia is obvious and 8-3-1-1 is possible. Asks dimochka whether 3rd on the wagon is scum applies to joke votes. Asks about abductor. Finds it difficult to create novel indie roles. Points out FrozenFlame's vote mistake, and my "FrozenFrog" mistake, suggesting that neither FF nor BoomFrog are scum-buddies with me. Votes dimochka without any explanation. Picks at me for answering questions not directed at me, and refuses to answer LaserGuy's and my question about his reasoning. States dimochka vote is serious. Thinks plytho probably town. Accuses LaserGuy of stretching re. active lurking on SDK. Responds to me saying he is trying to get discussion. Asks mpolo for quantifying his off feeling on me. Asks Zyth why he thinks dimochka is scummy, and for his reads on himself, me and LaserGuy. Prods bessie re. her disagreement with me. Cases out dimochka, for being overly cautious and not engaging with the thread. Thinks my logic re. identifying SK is correct. Prods LaserGuy for conclusions on me and himself, and for a response to a question. Asks Yoloswag why he's convinced there's scum between me and dimochka. Wants dimochka to claim. Doesn't see me in damage-control mode, and defends me a bit against bessie. I might be bussing dimochka. Further solidifies scum read on dimochka for terrible reads and hiding. Thinks Yoloswag's vote on me is out-of-place, concludes could be scum (moves to neutral after having matching scum shortlists). Has Zyth probably town (answers questions, picks on solid things), LaserGuy probably town (lots of little townie things and consistent solid reads), mpolo is town (meta, gut feeling, passive), plytho probably town (paying attention, asking questions etc), bessie is neutral (tunneling on me and faulty logic), BoomFrog may be scum (various errors, not paying attention), GoP may be scum (doesn't like his dimochka read), FrozenFlame neutral (lack of content), Carlington may be scum (waiting for reactions to BoomFrog). Wants answer about FrozenFlame's choice of reads list structure.

Day 2: Takes blame for dimochka lynch. Getting SK is more important, but tough. Asks mpolo for reads. BoomFrog is feeling better. Calls out Carlington on the idea of sudden interest in me. Calls out mpolo's impossible-to-hunt SK post. LaserGuy's big list feels decent. Explains his GoP read further, especially the wishy-washy nature of his read on dimochka. Not a fan of GoP's response to BoomFrog. Struggling sto see scum on dimochka wagon, as reading all of Yoloswag, LaserGuy, BoomFrog, and me as town. Carlington is likely scum for not mentioning dimochka and then claiming he would have voted for him. Didn't read Carlington's claim as backup claim. Doesn't think Carlington and GoP scum together. If Carlington is scum, buddies could by Zyth, FrozeFlame and me. Thinks Carlington isn't tried to read him. Thinks Carlington could be a scum backup. SK needs something to make them more powerful. Votes GoP, with reasoning of bad reads list, defensiveness and lack of meat on posts. Thinks both GoP and Carlington are scum. Confident mpolo is not scum, following claim. Wants to know why mpolo sees him so much as town. Convinced one of HBCs is scum. Asks me to elaborate on my mpolo SK read. FrozenFlame talks too much to be anything but legit. No concerns with hem. Doesn't see my case for SK!mpolo. Asks BoomFrog if he thinks GoP is town. Zyth's D2 content has been different, due to unjustified reads, but still leaning town. Not interested in lynching Zyth after claim. Hammers Carlington (apparently accidentally).

Day 3: Early hammer messed up his action. Assumes mpolo was the mafia kill, trying to kill SK. SK kill must have been BoomFrog. Pretty clear Charlie is SK. Agrees with mass claim. Thinks GoP/Zyth/Yoloswag team feasible. Wonders whether scum!Zyth would drop town hints about GoP, if GoP is town. Could see FrozenFlame and Zyth "playing off" Yoloswag. Needs to reread me, and asks for LaserGuy's thoughts (finding him townie). Suggests popcorn mass claim. Thinks crossvote sounds risky. Has info on FrozenFlame to believe he has results. Argues with Yoloswag over crossvote. Asks if he has a reason for suspecting SDK and me. Suggests Yoloswag claims first. Claims Follower, targeted FrozenFlame N1 (investigative), got sunglasses N1, used on Yoloswag and got No Result. Has Yoloswag, FrozenFlame, me and Zyth as top four scum, pending rereads of LaserGuy and GoP. Would shoot Frozen over Zyth. Acknowledges mistake about not using both abilities. Wants to know why Zyth targeted mpolo. Asks why GoP wants Frozen last. Questions Yoloswag re. every night commuter. Repeats question to GoP re. his town read of Frozen. Responds to Yoloswag, with having him top of the scum list (been on too many wagons with bad reasons, and having 100% untragetable). Sounds annoyed by Yoloswag pushing for his vote before he's ready. Wants to hear Yoloswag's scum team. Wants to know why Yoloswag call his lynch easy. Pretty sure Yoloswag is mafia, not SK for being too bloodthirsty. Quizzes Yoloswag more on his claim, and asks Frozen why he thinks mafia!full-time commuter is too powerful.
Apart from his mistakes (early hammer, not using two abilities last night), I really don't see SDK as scummy, having re-read everything. His play reminds me of the sort of SDK I'm used to seeing, although admittedly I usually have a hard time reading him. I don't see any clear partners for scum!SDK from SDK's side. I'm pretty confident not Yoloswag - they've been at each others throats too much today, and it simply doesn't feel forced. Also, the fact that he targeted Yoloswag last night according to FrozenFlame suggests this. A FrozenFlame/SDK team might be possible, in which case Yoloswag is a possible, but unlikely, partner. I don't have any particular thoughts on his likelihood of being a team-mate with LaserGuy or Zyth, but by process of elimination, if Yoloswag isn't then at least one of them is. I could see SDK as the SK, mainly because of this comment: "it's pretty clear that Charlie is our SK now", but only if the SK has a ninja kill, as well as his Follower ability, which seems like quite a lot for one player.
SDK wrote:jimbob was the only one fighting against the Carlington lynch, and god damn that "Both of you seem so keen on not lynching Carlington. Why?" line looks so bad! I feel like a townie working up the courage to lynch the godfather here... Need to reread, but I don't have time today...
I don't understand or even remember this comment. Was this from me, and why does it look so bad? Also, how's that re-read coming along?

Reads of LaserGuy and GoP tomorrow, with another look at Yoloswag if I get a chance.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon May 08, 2017 12:59 am UTC

Vote: SDK

I get your point, jimbob, that SDK doesn't seem scummy when you just take into account his words, but his actions are very scummy. SDK is good at seeming townie, but his actions and votes have painted him in a scummy light.

I was thinking Frozenflame was town before today, but their interactions with SDK today have really been pinging me.

Looking through the night actions, they are all plausible. Which indicates scum know whats going on. The only claimed investigative reports that worked are SDK investigating Frozenflame, and Frozenflame following SDK. They also both indicated that YOLO does have their claimed commuter power, due to both failing to produce results on different nights. I do believe all three (SDK, YOLO, and frozenflame) are all in the same scumteam together.

As for the second kill, I'm tossing up between Zyth and jimbob. I'm leaning more towards Zyth at the moment. But today, it's more important to lynch SK.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Sabrar » Mon May 08, 2017 6:48 am UTC

Deadline is in a day and a bit. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
SDK - 1 (Gopher of Pern)

Not voting: everyone else

4 to hammer, tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon May 08, 2017 7:43 am UTC

@Gopher of Pern: SDK's votes are no worse than the majority of people still alive (early LaserGuy wagon, dimochka, GoP and hammer on Carlington), which leads to me assuming you mean his claimed actions and his hammer? Could you confirm, please? What is it that makes his actions scummy?
Gopher of Pern wrote:But today, it's more important to lynch SK.
Umm... What?? Could you try again with that statement? I assume it's a mistake...
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby LaserGuy » Mon May 08, 2017 12:57 pm UTC

Okay...

It's been over 24 hours since Gopher voted and nobody else has joined in. I think if SDK were town, we would have seen some movement by now. I don't love this decision, but I'm cautiously optimistic that Gopher's right.

Vote SDK

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 1:28 pm UTC

Didn't you just make a huge post about how jimbob and I are teammates and I had a plot to push an SDK lynch...and now you're voting him?

Waiting for SDK to post then dropping a vote.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 1:35 pm UTC

@SDK

Assuming I'm town (or hell, even SK) who do you think are the likeliest scum in order?

@Frozen

Same to you.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 08, 2017 2:39 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Yes, I am a neighbourizer. I just hadn't played with the role, so I morphed it into mason in my head. I can use it every night. I targeted laserguy last night, but I was blocked from doing so. Flavour seemed to suggest roleblocking, so I kinda believe laserguy.


Where was this when you originally claimed? Why would you not disclose this? Being able to confirm yourself as town to more than one person is a HUGE boost to your claim's power, and the fact that you have reason to believe that LaserGuy actually RB'd you last night is really useful information. Why was there no full disclosure here? Like damn that's scummy as fuck for someone who I want to believe is confirmed town

Gopher of Pern wrote:With scum able to coordinate their claims, so that each of them can sort of confirm each other, I'm looking at SDK, Frozenflame and YOLO as scum buddies. One (or more) are lying about YOLO's untargetableness (Yes, that's a word), maybe it was just one shot, or maybe he's just the killer.
Why is it that one of us is lying about YOLO's untargetableness? In fact, if we were all scum together, why in the world would be force YOLO to claim untargettable, which is an extremely scummy claim, as opposed to just coordinating to make up exonerating results? The likelihood of us all coordinating to lie about YOLO being untargetable is much lower than the likelihood that you and Zyth are aligned and lying about your neighborizer ability. If YOLO, SDK and I are lying, we did a horrible job lying as scum because our claims put YOLO right in the hotseat and made him look scummy as fuck. Why in the world would we do that if we were a scum team? You and Zyth on the other hand have very convenient cross confirming claims that make you look like you're confirmed town. That's the better candidate for coordinated scum lying.

But seriously if you really mean that one of me, YOLO, and SDK are lying about our claims, you really ought to have substantiated that by now. Especially when you go on to vote SDK. I can't tell anymore if you're actually lazy and reckless town and just tunneling SDK for no good reason or if you're actually scum.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Vote: SDK

I get your point, jimbob, that SDK doesn't seem scummy when you just take into account his words, but his actions are very scummy. SDK is good at seeming townie, but his actions and votes have painted him in a scummy light.

I was thinking Frozenflame was town before today, but their interactions with SDK today have really been pinging me.

Looking through the night actions, they are all plausible. Which indicates scum know whats going on. The only claimed investigative reports that worked are SDK investigating Frozenflame, and Frozenflame following SDK. They also both indicated that YOLO does have their claimed commuter power, due to both failing to produce results on different nights. I do believe all three (SDK, YOLO, and frozenflame) are all in the same scumteam together.

As for the second kill, I'm tossing up between Zyth and jimbob. I'm leaning more towards Zyth at the moment. But today, it's more important to lynch SK.


This whole post screams hardcore tunneling. I think you've just built up the possibility of scumSDK in your head and are throwing anyone who has claims/reads related to supporting what he's saying in as his scumbuddies. You're coming off as paranoid and impulsive here. Again, why in the world would SDK, YOLO and I conspire to coordinate our claims in a way that essentially indicts YOLO and makes him look scummy as fuck? Why would we coordinate like that only to put immense claim pressure on YOLO, especially when YOLO was so vehemently anti-claim while SDK and I were pro-claim? Like if you think SDK is aligned with YOLO, or that I'm aligned with YOLO, you're out of your fucking mind. I can understand why you might think SDK and I could be scum buddies but YOLO as a 3rd is utter nonsense.

Ugh this shit is so messy and we have like no time left. I for one will not be voting for SDK as he remains my strongest town read. Im willing to admit I may be getting played but ultimately I think YOLO is more likely to be playing me, as is Zyth, than SDK. The LaserGuy second vote is interesting though because if this is 3-3-1 then the lack of an alpha strike means among GoP/SDK/Laser there must be 2 mafia. This is making me doubt GoP as town even more and makes me think we have Yolo/Zyth/GoP as mafia as really the only reason I had GoP as town is I wanted to believe GoP and Zyth were unaligned and that Zyth (perhaps begrudgingly) felt like he needed to confirm GoP as town to avoid having the spotlight turn to him if GoP called him out on not confirming his neighborizer ability.

This also makes me think that maybe there's some merit to the idea that we're actually 4-2-1. If that's the case then that explains the no alpha strike, and it also means that lynching SK goes from worst town play to best town play. Puts us in 3-2 lylo which atleast lets us control our own destiny, where as 4-1-1 could result in a kingmaker scenario or otherwise get us endgamed depending on how this mod resolves endgames with 1 remaining scum, 1 SK and not enough townies to carry a majority. And of course mislynching in 4-2-1 would just be disastrous and likely results in game over for town without some insanely good luck at night.

Given this I'm more inclined to vote for YOLO because whether he's mafia or SK I just think he's the best candidate for being scum of everyone still alive. If he's SK and this is 3-3-1 its game over but at this point I'm not so sure he's guaranteed to be SK. Is anyone else on board with this? I just really don't think SDK is the right play here at all.

@ YOLO: Assuming you're not mafia, I'd say it has to be Zyth/GoP/jimbob, but Zyth/GoP/Laser is looking just as likely now with GoPs new claim of being RB'd by Laser. After you my top lynch pick would definitely be Zyth right now

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 2:43 pm UTC

Vote Zyth

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 08, 2017 2:45 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:
Ugh this shit is so messy and we have like no time left. I for one will not be voting for SDK as he remains my strongest town read. Im willing to admit I may be getting played but ultimately I think YOLO is more likely to be playing me, as is Zyth, than SDK. The LaserGuy second vote is interesting though because if this is 3-3-1 then the lack of an alpha strike means among GoP/SDK/Laser there must be 2 mafia. This is making me doubt GoP as town even more and makes me think we have Yolo/Zyth/GoP as mafia as really the only reason I had GoP as town is I wanted to believe GoP and Zyth were unaligned and that Zyth (perhaps begrudgingly) felt like he needed to confirm GoP as town to avoid having the spotlight turn to him if GoP called him out on not confirming his neighborizer ability.


Bolded should read Laser/Zyth/GoP, not Yolo/Zyth/GoP

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 2:48 pm UTC

I also don't want to lynch SDK. GoP I find gross even with his claim; I'm not inclined to follow him with the game potentially on the line.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 2:51 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'd like for everyone to post 2 of their town reads, please, thank you.

I'd really appreciate this guys, please do post your 2 town reads

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 2:56 pm UTC

I'm currently looking at a SDK/Frozen + one of Yolo/jimbob scum team.
@Yolo and jimbob
You need to realise that if you're the SK or town, you should follow me or at least GoP, who is confirmed town. If I'm scum with GoP, who would be our last scum mate? It wouldn't make sense for me to link up with GoP as scum buddies, where a flip on anyone of us would condemn the other, ESPECIALLY so when there's an SK in the game.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 08, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I also don't want to lynch SDK. GoP I find gross even with his claim; I'm not inclined to follow him with the game potentially on the line.


So much this. GoP has never come off particularly townie to me this game and I was only ever putting him as town because of Zyth "confirming" his neighborizer. Even if he is town there's no way I'm sheeping him.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'd like for everyone to post 2 of their town reads, please, thank you.

I'd really appreciate this guys, please do post your 2 town reads


For me it's really only SDK. GoP I was just giving a free town pass because of you "confirming" him but at this point I'm now doubting the legitimacy of that claim. I really think there's town between jimbob and laser but I'm really struggling to determine who.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 3:02 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I also don't want to lynch SDK. GoP I find gross even with his claim; I'm not inclined to follow him with the game potentially on the line.


So much this. GoP has never come off particularly townie to me this game and I was only ever putting him as town because of Zyth "confirming" his neighborizer. Even if he is town there's no way I'm sheeping him.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'd like for everyone to post 2 of their town reads, please, thank you.

I'd really appreciate this guys, please do post your 2 town reads


For me it's really only SDK. GoP I was just giving a free town pass because of you "confirming" him but at this point I'm now doubting the legitimacy of that claim. I really think there's town between jimbob and laser but I'm really struggling to determine who.

Hmm, it seems like you have it in your head that GoP is definitely not town and the only 2 townies remaining are SDK and one of jimbob/laser?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 3:02 pm UTC

Also, why do you have such a strong town read on SDK that you practically have him as confirmed town?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 08, 2017 3:09 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm currently looking at a SDK/Frozen + one of Yolo/jimbob scum team.
@Yolo and jimbob
You need to realise that if you're the SK or town, you should follow me or at least GoP, who is confirmed town. If I'm scum with GoP, who would be our last scum mate? It wouldn't make sense for me to link up with GoP as scum buddies, where a flip on anyone of us would condemn the other, ESPECIALLY so when there's an SK in the game.
I'll say it again; anyone who thinks me/SDK/YOLO is a possibile scumteam is out of their fucking mind. That has to be by far the least likely mafia combo in this game. I've admittedly been dickriding SDK all game, I was dickriding YOLO early his actions early D3 and the massclaim revealed he likely has an anti-town role, SDK has been attacking YOLO pretty relentlessly, at least this day phase, and both my claim and SDK's claim fucking indict the shit out of YOLO. We've got to be the most dysfunctional scumteam ever if you truly believe we're aligned. The fact that this is even being argued as a likely team comes off insanely scummy.

Zyth, GoP isn't actually confirmed town to anyone but you. GoP's townness is entirely reliant on the assumption that you're telling the truth. You two could just as easily be aligned and made up the neighborizer claim in preparation for claiming later because you two have shitty fakeclaims or something. Sure, it's an all in because if one of you flips scum the other is obviously aligned, but you're in the perfect position to do an all in right now if we're 3-3-1 so that argument of "its too risky" falls flat when that risk, if successful, can win the game right here.

Sigh.... I'm just really frustrated and confused right now. Would really like to hear SDK's take on these votes being thrown around.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 3:13 pm UTC

If Zyth and I were on the same team assuming 3/3/1, we would have quickhammered whichever of SDK/GoP is town because we're both online now. That's an FYI for any innocent player.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 08, 2017 3:16 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Hmm, it seems like you have it in your head that GoP is definitely not town and the only 2 townies remaining are SDK and one of jimbob/laser?
Not at all. I've been assuming all D3 that we're 3-3-1. SDK is my only real town read. I was giving GoP a pass as a town read because of you "confirming" him, just to assist with my PoE because if we're 3-3-1 then nailing mafia is top priority here. GoP could very well be the 3rd townie with me and SDK but right now his tunneling on SDK which is leading him to believe absurdities like a scumteam of me/YOLO/SDK is really making me uneasy. I can't tell his he's misguided town or gambiting scum as a result.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Also, why do you have such a strong town read on SDK that you practically have him as confirmed town?


I just think he's been legitimately scum hunting all game and, by overall play, comes off the most townie. Also, his claim checks out based on what I know, so that helps solidify my town read. The only real mistakes I feel he's made are the accidental hammer and neglecting to use his powers to the fullest. Both of those mistakes seem genuine, and I doubt his hammer on carlington was some sneaky quickhammer that he's trying to conveniently pass off as a mistake. Deadline was nearing and carlington was top voted anyway, so it's not like a carlington lynch was going to be turned around at the last second. I didn't see any scummy intent there at all.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 3:18 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Zyth, GoP isn't actually confirmed town to anyone but you. GoP's townness is entirely reliant on the assumption that you're telling the truth. You two could just as easily be aligned and made up the neighborizer claim in preparation for claiming later because you two have shitty fakeclaims or something. Sure, it's an all in because if one of you flips scum the other is obviously aligned, but you're in the perfect position to do an all in right now if we're 3-3-1 so that argument of "its too risky" falls flat when that risk, if successful, can win the game right here.

I know that perfectly well. It is an all in that isn't worth it any way or form. This was claimed yesterDay. Assuming we're scum, the risk of an SK hitting anyone of us would make it not worth it, considering it would lose us the game instantly. So no, we were not in a perfect position to do an all in.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 08, 2017 3:18 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:If Zyth and I were on the same team assuming 3/3/1, we would have quickhammered whichever of SDK/GoP is town because we're both online now. That's an FYI for any innocent player.


Last I checked only SDK had two votes? Where are you getting a quickhammer potential on GoP?

But yeah if SDK is town and you and Zyth are scum together, you two would have quicklynch SDK by now, I'll give you that.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 3:34 pm UTC

@Yolo
Do you have any thoughts on interactions between SDK/Frozen and jimbob? I don't feel like they've interacted much throughout the game, if at all.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 3:43 pm UTC

Eh.

I doubt frozen whiteknights SDK like this as buddies. If Frozen is scum then yes, his treatment of SDK (and me earlier) is consistent with his scum play, but I doubt he sticks his neck out this far to shield him in any case. He doesn't have to if he's scum.

SDK has refused to look at jimbob at every corner. This has been one of his most consistent reads. Jimbob's gone on record to say SDK was town earlier and even gave SDK a cop shot. If they're aligned, they've been hella ballsy in buddying up and I'm not sure they'd go so far.

Frozen and jimbob I doubt because their roles are so similar. If they were both scum, I'd applaud Sabrar, because I've never seen two roles with such similar functions on the same team and it'd be a brilliant way to punish a town erroneously clearing people off of clears.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 3:55 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Eh.

I doubt frozen whiteknights SDK like this as buddies. If Frozen is scum then yes, his treatment of SDK (and me earlier) is consistent with his scum play, but I doubt he sticks his neck out this far to shield him in any case. He doesn't have to if he's scum.

Even though mislynching toDay could probably net them the game if they're scum together?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

Hm.

If Frozen had a loud scumbuddy who was universally seen as Town, then I guess his behavior isn't out of the realm of possibility. But if he's scum, Frozen's stepped up his game and I'd have to give him props.

That said, I'd be looking between Laserguy/jimbob if I were in your shoes and Town with a confirmation of GoP as innocent.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 4:21 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Hm.

If Frozen had a loud scumbuddy who was universally seen as Town, then I guess his behavior isn't out of the realm of possibility. But if he's scum, Frozen's stepped up his game and I'd have to give him props.

That said, I'd be looking between Laserguy/jimbob if I were in your shoes and Town with a confirmation of GoP as innocent.

Why Laserguy in particular? A lot of what frozen has said has been very weird to me this game, in particular, his speculation of the night kills, which we have had completely different thoughts on D2 and D3. And I can't wrap my head around why he'd think in that manner.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 4:25 pm UTC

Because there's at least 1 scum between Laser and jimbob assuming a 3 man team, though no one really knows who. That'll have to be figured out by game's end if town wants to win.

Regarding Frozen's NK speculation, you'd have to show me the posts or paraphrase for me what you believe to be scummy. I'm not sure what you mean offhand.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Mon May 08, 2017 4:56 pm UTC

Unvote

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 5:14 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Because there's at least 1 scum between Laser and jimbob assuming a 3 man team, though no one really knows who. That'll have to be figured out by game's end if town wants to win.

Regarding Frozen's NK speculation, you'd have to show me the posts or paraphrase for me what you believe to be scummy. I'm not sure what you mean offhand.

I'm currently leaning towards jimbob in a SDK/Frozen/jimbob team. As for quotes on Frozen, I'll get to them later as I'm a little busy atm.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby SDK » Mon May 08, 2017 6:01 pm UTC

I'm here. This has gotten a bit out of hand. Either Gopher and LaserGuy are both scum, or mafia is scared of quickhammering because they're scared of the SK. LaserGuy's vote is concerning... LaserGuy, why are you so sure Gopher is town when you think Zyth is likely scum?

Has someone failed to login recently in order to finish the quickhammer? Either way, I'm tempted to just vote Zyth right now, but I'll get back to my homework instead. Could vote Goper too, I guess. It would take a bastard mod to make a scum neighbourizer, but it's really no worse than a Godfather, other than the fact that Godfathers are common (which is a pretty big difference).


LaserGuy wrote:I certainly feels like Zyth is part of the team as well, except that balance-wise, it seems extremely unfavorable to town for there to be three mafia, an SK, and an anti-town indie (mpolo), especially as that would mean we apparently have no available killing powers.

At this point, I think it's more likely that the scum team is just jimbob and YOLOSWAG. Zyth as serial killer with a guardian angel feels about right to me in terms of the balance.
We've had a huge number of investigative abilities flip. Town is not weak this game, it just feels that way since our reads have sucked. It's not uncommon to have no townside killing roles in a game with an SK, and we almost certainly do have three mafia.

I think you picked up on some decent stuff there. YOLOSWAG and jimbob have been acting stragely towards each other. I'm pretty sure neither of them are town, but I've yet to decide if they're on the same team.


Reading over my last post and forward, now I'm wondering if a jimbob, Zyth, Gopher scumteam is a possibility. With YOLOSWAG as the SK? Could be true. I'll have to look into that.



#HBC | Zyth wrote:Thank you. How confident are you in jimbob? Enough to vote for him right now?

I haven't even finished reading him yet. If it was deadline and I was out of time, he would likely be my vote.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I assume your list is something like this:
Town
GoP
Laserguy
Frozen
Zyth
Jimbob
YOLO*possible SK
Scum
Yes? Seeming as you have such a strong town read on Laserguy, lynching anyone from your list below him would net scum, no?

That list looks about right, but ignores that GoP is only town because of you. If I decide you are mafia, that completely goes out the window. So, no, I'm not at all comfortable with lynching just anyone on that list and the fact that you ask has me even more concerned that you and Gopher are just mafia together. You certainly have been acting like GoP as town is a given for everyone.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:If neither yolo nor myself are the SK, who would it be? Lastly, what do you think of laserguy's case on his supposed scum team? Looking at your scum reads, am I right to assume that you agree with it?

FrozenFlame as SK I could certainly see, though he's still on my to-do list. LaserGuy's case looked legit enough. He caught some of the same interactions between YOLO and jimbob that I did, along with a few more.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'll answer your question later.

Why wait?



jimbob vs. Zyth exchange doesn't look faked, and makes Zyth look a little worse, I think. jimbob as scum would have YOLOSWAG as his token scummate in his top three, I guess? That would point to Zyth as town, or at least as non-mafia. Gets pretty quickly dropped though, and Zyth's side of the conversation looks like it droops towards the end. Unsatisfactory. Maybe not relevant, then - they could be bussing.


jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Nothing strikes me as really scummy about FrozenFlame at all, and he's putting a lot of effort into his reads. It feels like a little too much for scum, although I could easily be wrong on that count. He does seem to be genuinely scum-hunting, and although his reads have been off, so have mine, and for that matter, most of town's (hence the two mislynches).

Not a fan of your Frozen read, jimbob. You call him "definitely one of [your] towniest reads", but I don't think that's what you really showed. The above quote is slimy and I don't trust that you actually hold this read.


jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
SDK wrote:jimbob was the only one fighting against the Carlington lynch, and god damn that "Both of you seem so keen on not lynching Carlington. Why?" line looks so bad! I feel like a townie working up the courage to lynch the godfather here... Need to reread, but I don't have time today...
I don't understand or even remember this comment. Was this from me, and why does it look so bad? Also, how's that re-read coming along?

The quotation marks within my quote there were Gopher's words, not yours. As I recall, I read through that section of the game, found nothing in particular to get worked up about over you, then hit that Gopher line that had me all pissed off again. Not at all clear from my writing though, I'll give you that.



Gopher of Pern wrote:SDK is good at seeming townie, but his actions and votes have painted him in a scummy light.

I'll give you the first, but you need to prove the second. How have my actions been scummy this game? Or are you just talking about my couple of mistakes Day 2 when I was busy enough that I could barely post?

Gopher of Pern wrote:As for the second kill, I'm tossing up between Zyth and jimbob. I'm leaning more towards Zyth at the moment.

What does this mean? "Second kill" referring to the mafia (because you think I'm the SK, right?)?

Gopher of Pern wrote:But today, it's more important to lynch SK.

That is definitely not true.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 6:05 pm UTC

SDK wrote:jimbob vs. Zyth exchange doesn't look faked, and makes Zyth look a little worse, I think. jimbob as scum would have YOLOSWAG as his token scummate in his top three, I guess? That would point to Zyth as town, or at least as non-mafia. Gets pretty quickly dropped though, and Zyth's side of the conversation looks like it droops towards the end. Unsatisfactory. Maybe not relevant, then - they could be bussing.

Nah, I just gave up on talking to him. I don't have enough energy to handle too much BS nowadays.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 6:13 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:This is interesting, I'm fairly baffled by dimochka's town meta read of boomfrog. I think mafia killed plytho as he was a universal town read who was active in thread and an SK likely killed bessie. I can't see why a vig would off either one of them. I'll be having to look back at the thread sometime soon, to go through people's read lists and interactions.


I think it's the opposite actually. Bessie I felt had much more consensus around her being town than plytho. Agreed that it would have been stupid for a vig to kill either of them, lending credence to the argument that we're dealing with an SK. But if anything I think scum killed bessie for being a general town read, and SK likely killed Plytho for being a tougher kill to trace leads from thanks to Plytho having less content and being more of a neutral read in this group.

Here, Bessie definitely did not have much more consensus around her being town; SDK had bessie as neutral. I don't think there was one person who was not reading plytho. Bessie was likely killed due to a large majority of her game being centered around talking about the SK. I have no clue why Frozen thought what he said at all.
FrozenFlame wrote:These two pieces of information (bolded and underlined) together prove that mpolo was killed by someone other than Zyth, and that it couldn't have been the result of him using his GA ability correctly and dying as a result. Therefore, Zyth was NOT the target of a kill last night, unless mpolo lied about using his one shot protect on N1, which he didn't really have reason to. With his GA ability blown N1, mpolo couldn't have died as a result of a correct GA protect N2. According to modpost, mpolo was immune to any action Charlie takes, thus Zyth's alleged attempted vigging of mpolo would have been ineffective. Therefore, mpolo MUST have been killed by the SK or mafia last night. Probably the SK to prevent the potential co-winner indy from kingmakering the scum into a shared victory (since that would be easier than kingmakering a shared SK-GA victory).

And here, why would Frozen think that mpolo was killed by the SK? The SK would likely be hunting down mafia in a 4-3-1-1 scenario; mpolo as a claimed indy is an easy slot to point towards as the SK which becomes more and more helpful for the SK the longer mpolo lives. I find it baffling that Frozen would think the SK killed mpolo.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Mon May 08, 2017 6:16 pm UTC

Jimbob, Frozen, Yolo and myself have all been online (together in fact) ever since laser + GoP voted. Pretty sure SDK is scum simply from the fact that there's no quick hammer. I'll be dropping my vote tomorrow.


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