The Dark Tower - Mission failure

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Carlington
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Tue May 02, 2017 2:59 pm UTC

I'll let jimbob answer for himself, but for my part the thought process is a combination of meta and other factors. Yes, certain roles appear here more frequently than others.

As for the particular mechanics, I get to choose a power that a dead town player had. However, I can't use the same power two nights in a row unless it's unavoidable, and in general can't use the same power twice unless it's unavoidable. Also, the wording of the PM suggests there are roles I cannot use, as I'm told I'll be given a list to choose from each morning.
Kewangji: Posdy zwei tosdy osdy oady. Bork bork bork, hoppity syphilis bork.

Eebster the Great: What specifically is moving faster than light in these examples?
doogly: Hands waving furiously.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby Carlington » Tue May 02, 2017 3:57 pm UTC

The other factor is that I went out of my way to claim no result the specific way I did for a reason - that reason being the implication that there was something special about N1 in particular which didn't apply to any other night.
Also, why are you calling me out for not fully answering a question which you addressed to jimbob?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Pregame

Postby dimochka » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:41 pm UTC

Confirm
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:17 pm UTC

Poor LaserGuy. I promised to vote him and by the time I got ready for my first post he has four joke votes.

vote plytho
Mostly for assuming that all games are like my mess of a game.

FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

8-3-1-1 could work, but I might want to go back and see what sabrar thinks of independents / SKs. A cult isn't out of the question, is it? (should probably check if it's in the rules but i'm late to work right now). I have zero flavor knowledge so this will be interesting.

Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:22 pm UTC

EBWOP: no cult because no alignment changing conditions. So unless I see otherwise, 8-3-1-1 makes sense to me. And that last 1 might be a jester (just a hunch).
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:16 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
dimochka wrote:FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

You called those votes for LaserGuy jokes. Does this rule of thumb apply to joke votes?

Often D1 votes have little basis other than "I didn't see much content from him/her" or "he/she seems to be active lurking". For that reason, I think it might. I think it's more so that 3rd position that intuitively feels safer for some reason. If anything I'd say it has more merit when there is little contribution than when there is an ample information/claims available.

FrozenFlame wrote:
dimochka wrote:EBWOP: no cult because no alignment changing conditions. So unless I see otherwise, 8-3-1-1 makes sense to me. And that last 1 might be a jester (just a hunch).


Though this is definitely some key info to be reminding everyone of. Love mods who have the confidence in their setup's robustness to rule out certain roles. Confirming absence of converters is huge strategically. Though if that means we have a jester instead I'll be decidedly triggered. I'd take cults in every game I played in I got a guarantee of no jester in each and every game...

For some reason I just think that Sabrar would toss a jester in because he likes that role, but I could be completely off base here.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:54 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I forget who, but somebody in Diablo looked back at past games and demonstrated that the 3rd on the wagon comment is basically unjustified.

Can't fully verify at work because... I have a lot of work. But I went through 5 games old games (that sufficiently distracted me for a while) and saw 4 town / 1 SK as 3rd vote. So I tentatively agree that it may not have merit.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:06 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
dimochka wrote:Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?


WIFOM on your first post? IGMEOY dimochka.

FWIW this is in reference to the Pokemon game two months ago where I claimed PGO in my first D1 post. I was not PGO. and I was town. Does not mean anything regarding my role this game, but figured I'd explain.

I am pretty certain that there are some kind of independents. SK is almost a given. No clue what the other would be but either survivor or jester IMO. Jesters are indeed annoying.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:09 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Vote dimochka.

Ok, and? At least ask me something...

Jimbob, thank you for actually trying to make content happen. Also,

Unvote
Vote Jimbob


Because if you have content while we don't, you must know something we don't.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:15 am UTC

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
dimochka wrote:For some reason I just think that Sabrar would toss a jester in because he likes that role, but I could be completely off base here.
This matches my thinking except that there has been no jester in Sabrar's previous games. On the other hand I don't see why he wouldn't change the setup for this game to add one.
Where did you two get the idea that Sabrar likes jesters? He must have mentioned it in a game I didn’t play, because I don’t remember this at all. And jimbob, what do you mean by “change the setup”? This is a closed setup, and the only public info is that it is power role heavy with standard abilities. Your comment makes me think you know more about the setup than I do. (New/returning players, Sabrar presented his ideas for the setup here in the Gojoe thread when he was designing the game.)

What I meant is someone, who I thought may be Sabrar, mentioned jester a number of times in game as well as out of game. That was my "I might be completely off base" part - it could've been someone else entirely. I have no information about a potential jester, and I don't plan to claim to be one.

bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:FWIW, I think an SK a little unlikely at this point because IIRC, in Dollhouse, Town had all but lost after N1, due to too many deaths. A 9-4 would be entirely reasonable, as it gives Town two mislynches before LYLO (assuming there is one death each night).
I don’t think the serial killer was as much of an issue with Dollhouse Mafia as the town lover pair that was killed N1 (setup was 6-2-1-1). Lover is another role that I do not think is a very fun mechanic.

Don't remind me... I made a big mess and then got sick and Madge had to deal with it.

bessie wrote:SDK, BoomFrog, and dimochka, are those votes serious?

Mine is not. The next one will probably be though.
Unvote
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:49 pm UTC

SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

Sorry, nope. Town all the way. But poking the bear(s) on D1 is usually fun.
I do have to agree that, in retrospect, I backed off my last vote for no good reason and as such whatever I tried was a complete waste. However, I planned to post a serious note and got distracted by work.

I think bessie and boomfrog are town. Those are my main reads so far. But I'll have some opinion on everyone later today (or almost everyone, if carlington never posts).
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

Aah this is great. I'm so glad we have so much content on D1, and all focusing on me! Gives me a lot to work with.

First, I'm town. And not exactly an exciting role. I don't plan to claim because I'd rather me lynched than someone else with a stronger role, unless my fellow townies agree with my reads that I'm posting next. Sidenote: What I did looks like a great play for a jester, I'll try it next time!

ok, player analyses (in order in first post)

Jimbob - joke vote on laserguy. doesn't think SK makes sense (probably not sk). misspelling of name (imo doesn't mean anything). more SK talk that supports him not being SK. Arguing with SDK. Backtracking his argument re: SK (I don't mind the original post about more recent games having one, but the post seems defensive - the one about the setup comments being poorly phrased). Initially defends my posts because I'm trying to explain myself, then apparently doesn't like my post about bessie and boomfrog being town (because I didn't explain myself? sidenote: they're still town in my book). Neutral, doesn't feel very townie.

mpolo - thinks there will be a good number of independent roles. feels jimbob is odd (I didn't notice this until my re-read). explains his thoughts. Something specific stands out to me that isn't worth claiming if what I think is true, but all I'll say is I think he's town.

SDK - very abrasive (I don't mean this in a negative way, just feels like the right word), pushing buttons. focused on me early on which is perfectly fine. what is less ok is that his thoughts around my post seem to be regarding putting joke votes and explaining myself. I don't see how that's scummy. But at least he has an opinion. Seems to ask a lot of questions but once again I only see him focusing on me, and that part worries me more. Neutral.

LaserGuy - first post just intro, nothing stands out. makes a good point about jimbob not reacting to a 4-vote wagon (and this is, indeed, not at all common for these forums). didn't understand my vote (which i explained). provides reads - I agree with his SDK read, he's asking a lot of questions but refusing to offer much in return. Re:Jimbob he noticed the same thing I did. Points out my focus on independents (fwiw it's not intentional, but I like to try to make sense of the setup). Worried about my two reads (frankly, I don't care. I have my reads and I have my opinions regarding how some people act, coupled with how I've seen them act in the past. Explaining it not only nullifies the point but also potentially allows other people to read them better in the future). Would be great to see more opinions. Neutral leaning town.

Carlington - one post total, mostly recaps. would like to see more questions for people. neutral, leaning town (because I didn't see any weird inferences that scum would be interested in making).

GoP - no content (except an intro post), so no opinion.

Bessie - typical town bessie. clearly not holding much back and posting her opinions and pushing people. I don't recall seeing her as scum, to be fair, but nothing stood out to me. Towniest read of the bunch.

Plytho - reacts exactly the way I would've expected to the votes on LaserGuy. Actually asking questions and not backing town from them easily (like I did for some reason). Would like to see reads. Townie.

YoloSwag - something about his last two posts really pings me. They feel very nonchalant and unconcerned. Feeling slighly scummy.

FrozenFlame - I found his initial posts more general and not really helpful to the game (not in a bad way, more that they revealed his experience / playstyle rather than looking at people). Would like to see more reads. Nothing stood out so far. Neutral

Zyth - I obviously don't like his vote on me and disagree with his reasoning, but it does not stand out as scummy. He is asking a lot of questions, and his playstyle seems similar to FrozenFlame's. Question for you - what feels like fluff? Give me a specific example. I agree that I didn't provide much content, but I got discussion going. Neutral, similar bucket to FF.

Boomfrog - All I'll say is his playstyle aligns with what i've seen in the past, and I don't think his answers would be phrased the same way if he were scum. I also get wary when people point at me as town/scum without real explanations (feels like buddying, and I've been tricked by that before), but my opinion hasn't changed.

Unvote (did I even have a vote?)
Vote jimbob

Not a self-preservation vote because I think my lynch, while not beneficial to town, will help figure out who was opportunistic vs. actually finding me scummy. But obviously I'd rather lynch scum. In this case, I think jimbob was doing similar type of buddying to me that it looked like I was doing to Boomfrog, and he's been more defensive than I would expect him to be.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:53 pm UTC

Unofficial Votals:
Plytho - 1 (FrozenFlame) T-6
Dimochka - 5 (SDK, Yoloswag, Zyth, Boomfrog, LaserGuy) T-2
Jimbobmacdoodle - 2 (Bessie, Dimochka) T-5
Carlington - 1 (Jimbobmacdoodle) T-6
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:@dimochka
Could you explain your laserguy town lean in more detail?

Will do later today (and reply to your response to my post) as well as address any other questions. More than happy to address other questions parts in more detail, just point them out please (that's to everyone) since I am leading the votals.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:24 pm UTC

apologies. I meant to post yesterday but fell asleep. re-reading now so should have another post soon. i strongly suggest you guys consider what you'll be doing on D2 once I come up town (obviously wine but still). A couple of things before I get to my re-read:
1. if i was jester i would've hammered myself.
2. I'm unsure on claiming. On one hand I can claim my role - a pretty standard role that has a good chance of being in game, but on the other hand claiming might help scum narrow down some of the other roles before the reveal on D2. thoughts?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:36 am UTC

My promised post regarding LaserGuy (since someone asked me). Hope it'll be helpful come D2.

Post 1: doesn't overreach to the multiple votes on him at D1. asks questions of voters. talks flavor.
Post 2: questions jimbob's lack of concern regarding the wagon he inadvertedly started. asking me about my jokes (yes, D1 has a lot of joking because there isn't actual content. and analyzing how people react to it is also helpful. I actually find your worries about my joking somewhat concerning, like you're trying to nitpick. At the time it seemed innocuous, but now I'm not so sure).
Post 3: reads. seem sincere, focuses on the three players he finds scummy (or he picked us in some other way?)
Post 4: just tells us who's what in his book - sdk town, jimbob scum
Post 5: reads on the others. looks like his other reads are based more on amount of content rather than quality (pretty much everyone on that list fits that, I think)
Post 6: reply to BoomFrog. BoomFrog still feels like town in my book, for lack of a better word he's too abrasive to be scum in this game (in my opinion).
Post 7: more analysis of a few people. I actually agree with that last statement that my lynch will clear things up more. With that being said, not lynching me is probably a risk for many others, especially since I believe that jimbob is scum.
Post 8. Attacks BoomFrog regarding his reading of Carlington as newbie. Brings up lots of examples, which make sense to me.
Post 9. Further reply to BF

So my read is still neutral leaning town. something feels off, though his reads are solid. I'd recommend for cops to consider checking him at night, as I think it'll either identify a well-hidden scum or provide a strong ally.

I really do think my lynch will reveal quite a bit at this point, and I apologize for my lacking participation. I had specific reasons for saying what I said and doing what I did, and I can explain some of them (or all but one) at the end of the game.

Does anyone whom I called townie want me to reveal my role before the day's end? Since I think SDK is more likely scum than town, I'd rather not say anything if he's the only one interested.

My other reads haven't changed btw.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:57 pm UTC

SORRY! Please ignore
This was in a "The Dark Tower" spoiler so hopefully whoever saw this realized that the post was meant for Gojoe and didn't read it.
Last edited by dimochka on Mon May 01, 2017 2:46 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Mission failure

Postby dimochka » Tue May 09, 2017 4:41 pm UTC

way to completely ignore my reads from D1.

and good job scum, you played a great game!
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:29 pm UTC

Guess here's my late /confirm

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I haven't played with a number of players on here before. BoomFrog, Zyth, and FrozenFlame, would you mind giving those of us who don't know you an overview of your previous Mafia experience?


My mafia experience is extensive, with regard to both actual game play and theorycrafting. I started playing forum mafia back in 2005 and played in games pretty regularly until about 2012 when I graduated undergrad. I played pretty sporadically for a few years after that and am just now coming off some time away from the game, been about a year and a half or so since my last game.

I used to run the mafia club at my undergrad fwiw, so designing well balanced closed setups usually ranging between 12 - 20ish players, and of course teaching the game through opens like F11 and Jungle Republic is pretty par for the course for me. I have a firm grasp of what it means to play to wincon and the fundamental mechanics that make this game tick. So don't worry, I'm no rookie in need of coddling haha.

HBC Yoloswag and I go way back having met thru playing mafia together close to a decade ago, so he can vouch for my experience. We've had many a tight scum hunting experience =P But if for whatever reason this snapshot of my mafia background isn't sufficient feel free to test my knowledge as you see fit.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Nice to see Boomfrog back, as well as other players.

I have read most of King's books, though it was a while ago. If there is an SK, I hope it's It. Everyone floats down here...

8/3/1/1 would be my guess, as I think Sabrar said everyone has power roles, with one anti-town indy (SK likely), and one neutral indy (survivor, possibly)

I may not be able to post much over the next few days (at a conference), but I will try to contribute when I can.

What do you mean by "everyone floats down here?" Are you saying that mods here tend to hold weak indy roles in reserve incase a difficult to balance number of players sign up? I'd hope that people would recognize the inherent swingyness you introduce to setup by just adding indies willy nilly. Balance problems like that are much better solved via more "mountainous" power distribution tending toward greater town numbers in the case of overflow.

Plus survivor is a toxic, degenerative role and should never be used as a balancing mechanism IMO. But hey if thats the flavor of things around here we'll have to play around it, and not into it I suppose. In any case some clarification on the basis for this meta speculation would be nice. Because.....

#HBC | Zyth wrote:With the numbers of 8/3/1/1, why is it likely that there is an SK in this game? In the worst case scenario: a mislynch and mafia and SK both kill a member of town, we are in mylo on Day 2, that's pretty crazy.


Bingo. 8/3/1/1 is insanely swingy with two killing factions. I'd like to believe that any mod worth his salt would be aware of this. If this is a serious possibility we really can't afford to have a lazy D1.

That being said, laserguy is clearly scum so let's just keep it simple here folks and ride this wagon to the promised land

Vote: Laserguy

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:12 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:3 mafia members is ideal for a 13 man, that's what I'm operating with. Are 3rd party roles standard 'round these parts?

Pretty common (perhaps too common), not quite standard, but I'd bet there likely is one, maybe even two. Agreed that 3 mafia is the obvious choice.


Likelihood of independents generally aside, I think more relevant inquiry that Yolo is posing to you and any other players experienced in the XKCD game design meta is whether or not those "perhaps common" indies tend to be killing roles? 3 maf/1 SK/1 non killing indy is pretty damn swingy. 3 maf/1 marker/1 other non killer is distinctly less so. I don't know if this site has any experience with abductors but those can me used in medium sized games to introduce a second "killing" faction other than the mafia and still prevent crossfire/double town NK dick downing from taking a faction out of the game for no real meritorious reason.

So yeah, that's really just a long way of asking whether mods here tend to always default to independent roles with the ability to consistently NK in medium sized games like this, or whether they use more non traditional, but less swingy indies?

SDK wrote:Welcome to xkcd, FrozenFlame. It's always interesting to play with new experienced players. 8-3-1-1 is a possibility. But don't worry, we can catch scum Day 1. Like you said, we already have.


Thanks man, couldn't agree more that playing with a new set of experienced players is an interesting and engaging experience. Not that my old communities don't hold a special place in my heart but there's something exhilarating about playing this game with solid players who learned the game from a different village so to speak. Love me some strategic idiosyncrasies :wink:

dimochka wrote:Poor LaserGuy. I promised to vote him and by the time I got ready for my first post he has four joke votes.

vote plytho
Mostly for assuming that all games are like my mess of a game.

FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

8-3-1-1 could work, but I might want to go back and see what sabrar thinks of independents / SKs. A cult isn't out of the question, is it? (should probably check if it's in the rules but i'm late to work right now). I have zero flavor knowledge so this will be interesting.

Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?


Breaking promises and FoSing me in your first post? Never before has OMGUS been more justified

Unvote: Laserguy

Vote: plytho


dimochka wrote:EBWOP: no cult because no alignment changing conditions. So unless I see otherwise, 8-3-1-1 makes sense to me. And that last 1 might be a jester (just a hunch).


Though this is definitely some key info to be reminding everyone of. Love mods who have the confidence in their setup's robustness to rule out certain roles. Confirming absence of converters is huge strategically. Though if that means we have a jester instead I'll be decidedly triggered. I'd take cults in every game I played in I got a guarantee of no jester in each and every game...

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:35 pm UTC

Sorry about the inactivity these past two days. My girlfriend surprised me with a visit and between spending time with her and some late work nights thanks to my boss piling a bunch of new cases on to me, I haven't had the time to keep pace. I just finished reading everything and wanted to respond to a few things first but right now I need to go back through the thread to really digest some of the longer posts people have offered with comprehensive read lists. Lot of back and forth I need to read carefully and respond to so don't take this post as being my comprehensive "I'm caught up and here's what I think" post.

SDK wrote:I've never heard of an adbuctor, and I can't find it on mafiascum wiki either. What is that role?

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:For whoever asked, I am male. An abductor is an SK variant where instead of killing players he removes them from the game. If he dies, the abducted players return.


Thanks for covering me here bro. Abductor is an SK with "temp" kills that remove players from the game without flipping them a la gravedigger or similar roles. Removed players are considered "dead" for all wincon and night action purposes and cannot post or communicate with anyone still alive until the abductor dies. If that happens, they return to the game as if nothing had happened to them. Excellent role for adding a third party in small games where two true killing roles presents early LYLO issues.

LaserGuy wrote:Hi everyone! Four votes on D1? I didn't realize I was so intimidating.

YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me? jimbob, IGMEOY for keeping your joke vote on me after a wagon formed around it.


I love early wagons because I love early pressure. Gotta rustle jimmies/see how much it takes to rustle jimmies if you ever want people to step on the gas D1. Long way of saying I blindly hopped on an early RVS wagon because I wanted a reaction.

LaserGuy wrote:FrozenFang, YOLOSWAG, Zyth, what are your preferred pronouns (he/she/they, etc.)?


Male pronouns so he/him/his/etc.

plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Breaking promises and FoSing me in your first post? Never before has OMGUS been more justified

Unvote: Laserguy

Vote: plytho

Was this vote supposed to be for dimochka?
When your first post includes boasting of extensive mafia experience it would be pretty awkward to make such a silly mistake in your second post. My assumption is that it’s just deliberate D1 prodding. Off course I’d like to hear FrozenFlame’s explanation too.


That vote was totally supposed to be for dimochka. I was messing with formatting in my post before I typed in the vote command and got anchored on plytho because he had a quote nested in one of the posts I was quoting. I can own up to the fact that that's a rookie mistake to make after claiming to have extensive mafia experience, but it's the truth though so feel free to judge me all you'd like. I'm confident I'll be able to repair my credibility as the game goes on and show you all I'm not a complete scrub full of puffery and bluster =P

With that said Unvote: Plytho

Not going to jump on dimochka right away considering he looks like hes at L-2. Need to read his bigger post more thoroughly before I come down on that. Though I must say I was a fan of SDK's take here:

Spoiler:
SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

dimochka wrote:FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

dimochka wrote:Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?

Both of these are fine if serious. They're even fine if joking.

What's not fine is his explanations of either.
dimochka wrote:Often D1 votes have little basis other than "I didn't see much content from him/her" or "he/she seems to be active lurking". For that reason, I think it might. I think it's more so that 3rd position that intuitively feels safer for some reason. If anything I'd say it has more merit when there is little contribution than when there is an ample information/claims available.

dimochka wrote:FWIW this is in reference to the Pokemon game two months ago where I claimed PGO in my first D1 post. I was not PGO. and I was town. Does not mean anything regarding my role this game, but figured I'd explain.

Both seem overly cautious and over explained for what they're worth (which is basically nothing). The wishy-washy nature of the first quote and the nervous self-interest of the second ping me like crazy.

dimochka then continues to make joke votes with no substance and continues to not engage the underlying core of the thread.

Cases are so easy when we're only a page in. I think there was a time that I was more sure of a scum read page 2, though I couldn't tell you when.


Plan is to go through everything again and have some actual reads up by tomorrow.

@ YOLO is jimbobwagon the truth tho?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:01 pm UTC

Man I'm a bad apple neglecting this game all weekend. Bit surprised to see I'm not getting more flack for it, but I'm gonna take that as this community just being a generally forgiving and tolerant place when it comes to activity. I have kind of a bad rep for being lurky so it's refreshing to be given the benefit of the doubt, which I appreciate, though I'll admit that my activity has been abyssal thus far given the fact that deadline fast approaches.

With that said, here's my general assessment thus far:

Town:

Yoloswag - really the only player in this game I can get a meta read on considering he's the only player here I've ever played with before (unless Zyth goes by a different screen name on smashboards, in which case please forgive my ignorance), and on meta alone he's playing true to town form. I feel genuine scum hunting vibes from his posts and like the fact that he's grouping me in with his scum reads. Oftentimes I can get easy reads on players in communities that I have a reputation in when they give me too much deference or generally shy away from calling me out due to fear of retaliation. It's been my experience that sometimes I can act a little scummy/lurky, see who hesitates to call me on it, and then suss out who was fearful of drawing my attention and ire in order to uncover scared scummies. Now, Yoloswag certainly isn't the type of scum player that I'd expect to shy away from attacking me, so ultimately him not holding back and grouping me in his scum reads doesn't exonerate him, but it shows me he's getting down to business in this game and isn't going to just give me homie cred for free. This distrust coming from him is a good sign IMO.

SDK - My read here is almost certainly colored by the fact that I love to have an "urchin" or two in every mafia game I play. You know, the type of player that is deliberately uncooperative and antagonistic, sticks to his guns, doesn't go out of his way to explain and/or justify his every move, etc. (a la BabyJesus for vets of MafiaScum) I think it adds a distinct flavor to the game that keeps the game from feeling overly mushy. Always love to see a player who isn't afraid to frustrate other players, which always opens one up to attack. Baiting scum to attack you for bad reasons is always a strong scumhunting tactic and though I'm not sure if that's SDK's MO here, I'm liking his no nonsense approach. Bonus points for the unambigiuous demand that dimochka claim in the face of a lynch. (A demand for what I agree is the obvious choice)

Bessie - Perhaps I'm being played by her overly bubbly, accommodating, non-antagonistic style. I probably am, but I'm confident I'll be able to shake the wool off before late game if we both make it that far. She's not afraid to put her thoughts out there even if they aren't the most analytical or earth shattering observations. Her affability is making me feel like she's particularly transparent, but again maybe I'm falling victim to a ruse of naive innocence. I guess I just don't see a scum player with her personality putting herself out there so much while under virtually no pressure to do so. I'd expect more reserved play from a player of her presented personality if she were scum, just as a general tactic to reduce exposure and avoid the spotlight.

Town Leans:

Boomfrog - Nothing has seriously pinged my scumdar from him but he comes off as experienced and savvy enough that I ought not rely too much on instinct when reading him. In particular I don't believe scumfrog would have bothered to make this post:
BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:Some people have been reading me as newbie (town). Can you say what makes me seem newbish? Am I making some basic mistakes?
Quite the opposite, it's your enthusiasm that reveals that you are new to the game. Newbie town are extremely helpful and transparent, newbie scum have difficulty pretending to be that because of their lack of experience. Therefore newbies are the easiest to read.


On the other hand, his overly congratulatory assessment of Carlington's opening post is a bit disconcerting. Basically gives Carlington a ringing endorsement with no explanation which seems strange to me given the fact that he (boomfrog) basically bent over backwards explaining to us his whole "I lied deliberately to create lynch train parity and bait opportunists into trying to be opportunists" gambit. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind this move of his, it just seems to me that going through all that, being all transparent about it, and then coming down with such a hard town read on someone sans reasoning isn't exactly concomitant behavior.

HBC Zyth - again, no bad scumdar pings from him. Has had meaningful and seemingly genuine engagement with the material available. Mostly a gut read here tbqh. @ Zyth, do you go by a different screen name on smashboards btw? Have we ever played in a game together before?

Neutrals:

Carlington - not sure what to make of his opening post. A whole lot of fluffy fanfare and what seems to be a synopsis of what each player has done/how he characterizes each player without much if any assessment of each player's actual play so far. Comes off as a lot of hot air but maybe that's just how he starts games? I find it interesting that Gopher of Pern has pointed out that this type of activity is reminiscent of past games where Carlington was scum. Not sure if we have the time to unpack that this late in the phase but I'm hoping GoP elaborates on this if his meta read pings again.

This also comes off as overly accommodating:
Carlington wrote:Wait, bessie, is your ongoing issue with my reads just that I don't put some exact label on every player? Because like, I feel that the tone I write each player's read with and the things I like for them are enough to convey my thoughts on each player, is that not the case? I guess it's more obvious to me because I'm in my head when nobody else is, I'll try to communicate more clearly.


Not sure if that's because he's feeling pressure from even the smallest of critiques, or if he's genuinely surprised that his message wasn't clear. So yeah very unsure of my read here.

Plytho - Comes off a bit shady for some reason but generally unobjectionable content thus far. Definitely liked his presentation of this meta knowledge related argument:
plytho wrote:Mpolo: "forgot" that mafia can coördinate during the day. @regulars: would scum!mpolo post stuff like that to mislead town? I don’t have much of a read on him. Neutral for now.


Comes off as genuine scumhunting. Rest of that post had the same feel. Really struggling here on whether his decent content outweighs his seemingly minimalist approach.

Taking a break for lunch now but I will try to get back to this right after I eat (slow day at the office thankfully) and round out my reads list with the remaining neutrals and then my scum reads.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:53 am UTC

Afternoon ended up being busier than I thought so this is coming way behind schedule, but here's the rest of my thoughts.

Gopher of Pern - Truest neutral read. Have absolutely no idea. Going to have to wait to read more content from him because what he's posted so far has gotten me no where. Not even trying to say that his content is useless but for me personally just nothing jumps out at me so I'm really struggling to make any read.

Jimbobmacdoodle - My read on jimbob is kind of born of the curiousity I have for jimbob and LaserGuy's early exchanges this game. Ever since LaserGuy wagon reached four, LaserGuy has been sort of picking a fight with jimbob. It's nothing explosive, but Laser throws these little jabs at jimbob.

LaserGuy wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Hi everyone! Four votes on D1? I didn't realize I was so intimidating.

YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me? jimbob, IGMEOY for keeping your joke vote on me after a wagon formed around it.


*Shrug*. I was interested to see how you reacted before removing my vote after others piled on. If you'd been at L-1, it might have been a different matter, but at L-3 votes, why are you bothered by me leaving my vote on?


You didn't seem the least bit interested or curious about the fact that a four-person wagon formed around your random vote almost instantly, despite the fact that isn't the usual meta for these boards. I'm still trying to decide what to make of your subsequent reaction. You *shrug*, but then go on to defend the entire wagon unprompted, which seems like a bit of an overreaction. Now, you've read my reaction, yet your vote is still there.


LaserGuy wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laserguy, what are your reads on SDK and jumbob?


SDK is probably town. jimbob is leaning scum.


Basically I see this little back and forth where LaserGuy is coming at jimbob and jimbob kind of shrugs off his offensives. I don't take this interaction as being forced, jimbob is too unfazed to be doing a role play here. Their interactions just come off as TvS, though I'm much more confident that its not SvS than I am about ruling out TvT. I find it a bit peculiar though that Laser has parked on dimochka so solidly with no real showing of true interest to hop onto jimbob now that he has a couple votes. Makes me think Laser is settling here for the dimochka lynch, where it's because he felt compelled to get on the bus early and stick too it to sell it, or because he's not trying to rock the boat too hard and pick up an easy mislynch.

So yeah this jimbob neutral read should probably be classified as a neutral-slight-town read, but again, that's only because its the product of my scummy read on Laserguy and my view of their interactions as feeling TvS. So naturally I should follow this up with...

LaserGuy - leaning scum. He just seems too on edge, like he has a bone to pick, since the early game wagon. This read stems mostly from the tone of his prose. When I read his posts I get this feeling of slight indignation that gives his posts this oddly pushy feel. I mean like, to sum my feelings up, who the hell puts an "unofficial vote" on someone?

LaserGuy wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Any opinions of your own that you'd like to share BoomFrog? Feels scummy to me.

@LaserGuy why did you ignore the fact that I was the very first person to raise attention to dimochka's scumminess and unoffically the first vote on him?


You weren't. SDK placed a serious vote on him before your "unofficial" vote. I had also previously put IGMEOY on dimochka for his early wine comment. Regardless, simply pointing out scummy behavior in one player is not necessarily indicative of you being town, nor does it change the scumminess of your subsequent play. The fact that you've made a post pointing to this one line of content as defense of your play is honestly not helping your cause.

Consider this my unofficial vote on you.


It just seems like he's posturing a bit too much. Like he's trying to subtley establish some kind of dominance or authority over some players. Feels scummy to me frankly. He'd be my pick but for dimochka.

Mpolo - neutral slight leaning scum. Comes off as having this lack of agency and detachment from potential outcomes. Like this:
mpolo wrote:I honestly jumped into this without noticing the nightlessness. Bessie is then right, we might be able to detect some collusion, if we get lucky. I just got back from vacation, and should be posting more regularly, but i have a (stupid) computer problem to solve right now, so will have to wait, probably until tomorrow, for something more substantive.


What do you mean we might be able to detect collusion if we get lucky ? What does luck have to do with us being able to do this? Unless the scum aren't collaborating at all, surely there is always the possibility to pick up on tells and coordinated crafting of false reads. If collaboration is in fact occurring, whether or not we pick up on it and exploit it to quickly connect scum flips certainly won't be an exercise in luck. This comment makes me think mpolo has subconsciously, whether my virtue of being scum or whimsical town, minimized the importance and likelihood of "detecting collusion" in his mind. Seems to me like a subconscious desire to avoid meaningfully engaging with what it might mean to actively "detect collusion" or an actual apathy toward it being a potential tool for developing future reads. It's really just the "if we get lucky I guess that'd be cool" type attitude to me that comes off as evasive.

The conclusion of his big "reads" post only reinforced this non-committal, agencyless vibe:

mpolo wrote:I don't have any extremely scummy reads up to this point. I think the one I'm going to vote at the moment is:

Vote: BoomFrog


Look at that phrasing. Lots of hedging. "I think" and "at the moment" particularly. It's like there's no soul to this slot. Just feels like he's going through the motions and isn't invested in really scumhunting. Could be mistaking apathetic town here but it doesn't feel that way.

Dimochka - Likely scum. SDK rightly points out that people are likely bussing dimochka. The ease at which the wagon grew I found off putting, made me think all the scum had quickly bandwagonned an easy mislynch but when I considered the possibility that scum felt the growth was inevitable without their being any real wagon with true parity in attention, and thus decided to bus quickly to snag up whatever town cred they could salvage. Comfortable lynching dimochka today given all the attention on the wagon and resulting interactions that will provide great leads upon flip. Willing to hammer if that's the consensus, but want to here claim first. No sense in not claiming with deadline so close, unless you have a particular type of role that would provide the scum with particular strategic benefit knowing it was out of the game. Hopefully you can deduce what I'm getting at. Basically if your role is as weak as you claim it to be, it's better for town to know what it's allegedly lynching pre-night phase if we aren't going to get your flip immediately from the lynch.

Basically dimochka just rolled over too easily for any true townie. It really feels like dimchka just isn't putting up much of a fight so that the wagon just rolls along quietly, thus facilitating less debate over the wagon and allow his teammates to bus easily without too much exposure. It's like "leads triage." Don't put up a fight and make your partners REALLY have to justify their bussing of you. Just let everyone slide with easy reasons so as to minimize the number of meaningful connections that rigorous engagements evoke.

Like have you ever read more flatfooted defenses?

dimochka wrote:
SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

Sorry, nope. Town all the way. But poking the bear(s) on D1 is usually fun.
I do have to agree that, in retrospect, I backed off my last vote for no good reason and as such whatever I tried was a complete waste. However, I planned to post a serious note and got distracted by work.

I think bessie and boomfrog are town. Those are my main reads so far. But I'll have some opinion on everyone later today (or almost everyone, if carlington never posts).

dimochka wrote:Aah this is great. I'm so glad we have so much content on D1, and all focusing on me! Gives me a lot to work with.

First, I'm town. And not exactly an exciting role. I don't plan to claim because I'd rather me lynched than someone else with a stronger role, unless my fellow townies agree with my reads that I'm posting next. Sidenote: What I did looks like a great play for a jester, I'll try it next time!


This half hearted jokey resignation just feels off. "Its cool guys just lynch me, I'm not even that great of a role, no wait haha maybe I'm jester ;) ;)" is just so uninspiring. Like why actively play this WIFOMy whimsicalness about your survival as town? It's meant to play to your doubts and insecurity re: D1 read weakness an associated risk aversion. It doesn't present any affirmative evidence of townieness, but just tries to play to your sympathies by virtue signalling though offering to be a sacrificial lamb and then joking about how that offering could be a bait. It's a bizarrely passive yet subtly manipulative defense.

And lastly to address this:

SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'd like to see the rest of FrozenFlame's reads. What he has posted look reasonable so far, although I find it interesting that he has obviously already categorised all the players into town/neutral/scum, before writing out his reads on each, implying he's already made decisions on people before analysing their content in depth (@FrozenFlame, can you explain why you did it this way, please).

Nice catch, jimbob. I'm also interested in seeing an answer to this, FrozenFlame.


The answer is simply that I had already organized my thoughts generally into who I felt was town/townleaning/neutral/scumleaning/scum and started writing the post from the easiest to explain cases to the ones that needed more time for me to sort out. My town reads I thought had pretty simple reasons, so I wrote those first and started from there. I gradually worked down the list until I hit my lunch break. I didn't have time to finish the whole list and needed more time to really articulate my scum leaning reads. Gopher was a holdover because I was so unsure of how I felt and needed to reread some of his posts. Tried and still came up with nothing. So yeah, basically I needed more time to flesh out my feelings on LaserGuy v. Jimbob, and then lay out my scum lean cases for mpolo and dimochka.

I'll be paying close attention to the thread tomorrow morning so I can answer questions people have before deadline. Also hoping for a dimochka claim. Please forgive lack of organization and what I'm guessing will be copious typos as I was rushing to get this up before it got too late.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:44 pm UTC

Jfc well those are some devastating flips... Tracker, Doc and Cop all in one go? Been awhile since I've seen that many top tier power roles eliminated D1/N1. Gonna be an uphill battle for us here given it seems like we have two anti town killers. Some SK/Mafia crossfire would be a nice boon.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:This is interesting, I'm fairly baffled by dimochka's town meta read of boomfrog. I think mafia killed plytho as he was a universal town read who was active in thread and an SK likely killed bessie. I can't see why a vig would off either one of them. I'll be having to look back at the thread sometime soon, to go through people's read lists and interactions.


I think it's the opposite actually. Bessie I felt had much more consensus around her being town than plytho. Agreed that it would have been stupid for a vig to kill either of them, lending credence to the argument that we're dealing with an SK. But if anything I think scum killed bessie for being a general town read, and SK likely killed Plytho for being a tougher kill to trace leads from thanks to Plytho having less content and being more of a neutral read in this group.

Carlington wrote:Oh, and just to put it out there, I used no power whatsoever last night, nor was I targeted by anything to my knowledge.


Whats with this pseudo vanilla claim? You wouldn't roleclaim "just to put it out there" would you? So why are you now offering up your alleged night activity unprovoked? With some of our best power roles dead we ought not be thinning their NK target pool in a way that helps them hit other power roles. You suggesting you're vanilla in this way does just that... can't tell if this was just whimsical recklessness or scum guilt manifesting as claim jumpiness.

Basically I agree with all this:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I don't recall anybody finding plytho or bessie particularly scummy, and certainly not in the top 2 scum, which I'd assume is where people would use a vigilante, so I personally think a Serial Killer is more likely than a misplaced town kill. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a PGO though.
Carlington wrote:Oh, and just to put it out there, I used no power whatsoever last night, nor was I targeted by anything to my knowledge.
Why did you put this out there, rather than a simple "nothing to claim" or similar statement? You have just volunteered scum information about your ability for no gain to town.


Also want to address these:

LaserGuy wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:This also comes off as overly accommodating


In what sense are you using 'accommodating' here? This isn't a term I've seen used in Mafia before.


Accommodating in the sense that Carlington seemed to be going out of his way to address the perceived "issue" bessie had with him not "putting some exact label on every player." Like it's such a minor thing, and it isn't all that difficult to figure out what a person's read on another player is in a "reads" post as long as the post provides their thoughts and analysis. Placing hard labels on each player certainly isn't a necessity, so I found it strange that at the slightest hint that someone might be upset at him for leaving labels out, Carlington basically immediately begs for forgiveness and says he'll try to "communicate more clearly." Maybe the it would have been clearer if I said he seemed overly apologetic. I chose accommodating because of how willing he was to change his manner of expression.

LaserGuy wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:LaserGuy - leaning scum. He just seems too on edge, like he has a bone to pick, since the early game wagon. This read stems mostly from the tone of his prose. When I read his posts I get this feeling of slight indignation that gives his posts this oddly pushy feel. I mean like, to sum my feelings up, who the hell puts an "unofficial vote" on someone?


I was snarking at BoomFrog for claiming townie credit for an "unofficial vote" on dimochka earlier in the game.
Well shit, missed that... Guess I'll have to re-evaluate my impressions of this exchange.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:53 pm UTC

mpolo's early burst of activity quickly post flips rubs me the wrong way as it contrasts heavily to what we saw from him D1. See the second half of my D1 reads post for more detail. Getting hella scummy vibes, seems way too excited to suggest we "go after the SK to slow the game down"

Vote: mpolo

Him not being on the dimochka wagon and just sitting alone on Boomfrog could easily be an the move of an SK not looking to get his hands dirty.

I still need to take a closer look at how yesterday's wagon really evolved, has to be scum on there. Should be able to get more thoughts up tonight

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Mon May 01, 2017 6:34 am UTC

Please don't modkill me. Blatant "prod dodge" post here but I literally just got back home from Virginia. Helped the lady move out this weekend and just drove 7 hours back home with work in 6 hours so need to sleep but I will be catching up if its slow at the office tomorrow, hopefully should have something meaningful up by lunch time. Completely forgot to put y'all on notice that I'd be limited access for the weekend so my bad on that, and apologies to all generally for my inactivity

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 5:42 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Just have time for a few quick things...

BoomFrog is looking much townier today. I will have to do a full reread and try to re-evaluate properly when I have a bit more time, but based on what I've seen, I'm not planning on voting him today.

I'm surprised how confident GoP is in his scumreads in contrast to... well, virtually everyone else here. Making a note for later to reread him as well.

Either jimbob or Carlington lynch would be okay with me. I don't like the idea of lynching mpolo. If he isn't SK, I'm pretty sure he's town, and I'd rather not risk a mislynch on the chance of hitting the SK unless we're very confident in the decision. I'm not really happy with any of my scum reads right now... if we weren't in such a bad situation, I might be leaning toward a lurker lynch on Frozen, but I don't think we can afford to chance it.


This post really resonated with me. The more I read day 2 the harder I read BoomFrog as town, and I literally was thinking the same thing and made a similar mental note about GoP before I read this above quoted post. This shared experience is making Laserguy lean town a bit more for me.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@Laser

Frozen is one of the last people I would lynch. I believe scum are putting him in their neutral/scum list to keep their options open under the guise of "he's not very active" despite his content being solid. I don't do town reads, if that's what you're asking.

As for GoP listing people in the order of the playerlist (I think that's what you're referring to), that's fine. It's a neutral move.

I encourage everyone to reevaluate their town reads. We're at a point where no matter who is being talked about, someone else is slapping a town read on them. This suggests townies are misreading scum as innocent. What I HAVE noticed is that no one is reading Carlington as town; I think he's the only player not being town read by others which is interesting.
I've been looking for reasons to not trust Yoloswag but posts like these continue to ping town for me, so either Yolo is truly town and deservedly topping my town list or he has really refined his scum game to know how to play the shit out of me by calling out opportunism, in particular, opportunism takes the form of cheap and subtle digs at me from other players. And by digs I mean scum leaning rankings from players for "weak" or noncommittal reasons.

BoomFrog wrote:Mpolo's claim makes perfect sense with his behavior. SK is still possible but his thought process on claiming seems genuine. I give him a low chance of being a threat before endgame and only a medium chance of being a threat even then.
My thoughts exactly. mpolo came off strong as indy so I buy his claim of independent. Hard to say if its a gambit to cover for him being SK. Risky for sure, but also a strong play when town is already in a really bad position and can't "risk" lynching a claimed non-killing neutral when there are two killing roles that could likely put town out of the game with one more bad night. If this was day 1 I'd buy his claim much more but he really is in a great position to claim non-town and rely on the "look I'm being honest and I'm totally not your primary threat so don't waste your lynch on me or else" argument to preserve himself through town risk aversion and proclivity to take admissions against interest as full honesty which is just a cheap heuristic trick.

Sadly its a trick thats working on me though because given how volatile this setup is turning out to be, if he IS in fact a true non killing neutral he's right and we really can't waste the lynch today. So yeah my risk aversion makes me not want to call his bluff if he's running that gambit as SK. Fucking frustrating as shit though

I could get behind a GoP or Carlington lynch. Need to re-read a bit to really figure out who the best play is. SDK scum possibility has been nagging me for a bit but I can't come up with any good reason why he's the best play today so I'll leave that be. I really can't decide what to think about jimbob having two confirmed townies and only those two voting for him at end of D1. Neither vote came with boatloads of conviction which makes me feel like it was mere TvT instead of TvS. Tbh don't have much faith in dimochkas D1 reads but I need to look at bessie again to answer this better for myself. Either way still wouldn't say jimbob is a play over GoP or carlington.

We basically only have one day left so if people are going to claim better sooner than later so we can actually discuss the claims before deadline.

Unvote: Mpolo

Vote: Carlington for pressure to claim. Haven't decided definitively if he's the best play over GoP. I'll be engaged as much as possible in between my appointments tomorrow at work.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 5:49 am UTC

Also want to note that upon re-read GoP's post just above my last one reeks of "let me impugn myself purposefully so people are more likely to buy my excuses for off play as genuine not scummy." Particularly, the post carries the weighted implication that anyone who can't see through his questionable "lazy" or "superficial" play for "what it is" in GoP's opinion (i.e. lazy and non-committal but NOT scummy, according to GoP) is misreading him due to their flawed interpretation. He's subtly placing the burden on us to decipher these actions of his and be able to filter out the "scum seeming" aspects without getting thrown off by it. The fact that he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that it's reasonable to interpret these facets of his posts as inherently scummy pings to me as scum attempting to avoid the question altogether. Basically it seems like an underhanded way to "gaslight" readers into thinking they're dumb for not seeing his post for "what they are" when in reality the observation that these facets that are being pointed out are in fact scummy.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 2:43 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Also want to note that upon re-read GoP's post just above my last one reeks of "let me impugn myself purposefully so people are more likely to buy my excuses for off play as genuine not scummy." Particularly, the post carries the weighted implication that anyone who can't see through his questionable "lazy" or "superficial" play for "what it is" in GoP's opinion (i.e. lazy and non-committal but NOT scummy, according to GoP) is misreading him due to their flawed interpretation. He's subtly placing the burden on us to decipher these actions of his and be able to filter out the "scum seeming" aspects without getting thrown off by it. The fact that he doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that it's reasonable to interpret these facets of his posts as inherently scummy pings to me as scum attempting to avoid the question altogether. Basically it seems like an underhanded way to "gaslight" readers into thinking they're dumb for not seeing his post for "what they are" when in reality the observation that these facets that are being pointed out are in fact scummy.


Huh?

I accept I have come across as scummy, mainly due to my laziness. I'm trying to answer questions as directly as I can. I have been participating, not to my usual self, admittedly, but with so many people I am unused to playing with, it was getting hard to get a good read on people.

Yes, people who see me as scummy are misreading me, because I am town. I know you're not going to take my word for it though.

I kinda resent that you think that I am 'gaslighting' people.


First of all, please don't take that post personally as I'm not in any way trying to say that you're some manipulative abuser or something. I understand that the term "gaslighting" has touchy connotation as its a tactic commonly employed by abusive/sociopathic individuals but I'm not at all trying to characterize you as such. The actual act of gaslighting itself is amoral in a vacuum, it's the use of it to make an individual doubt themselves in order to mentally and emotionally cripple them and thus secure more control over them that is pernicious. I'm not trying to suggest that's what is going on here I'm merely using the term desciptively to convey that I feel that the way you're approaching your "scumminess" comes off as trying to get people to doubt the natural inferences they draw from their direct observations. This is a common mafia tactic and I'm only saying that it seems that you're using it, whether consciously or not, here in this game. I hope you wouldn't resent such an accusation, considering you signed up to literally play a game where lying and manipulation is an inherent part of the game, particularly when one rolls scum due to no choice of their own. Please don't read moral judgement or something similar into my analysis. I can assure you it was not my intent to make any such judgment or accuse you of abusive behavior.

Basically all I'm getting at are these quotes of yours:

"Yes, my points against dimochka were superficial. That's because I've been lazy. Not scum."
"I am very non-commital when I have nothing solid to go on."
"Maybe I don't understand what Boomfrog was getting at? I use non-commital language a lot, it was no slip"
"I know I come across as quite annoyed, but I'm really not."
"Yes, I lied. I do that."

When I read these all I see are presentations of ostensibly scummyish behaviors, followed up by some simple handwave explanation basically consisting of "this an idiosyncrasy of mine, pay that scummy ping you're feeling after observing it no mind." That's why I'm saying it feels like gaslighting. You're trying to be upfront about these scummy facets of your play, as if to use that "honesty" to quickly pivot away from the scummyness itself and just convince the reader "I'm just like this so you're wrong for reading this as scummy." Or atleast it just seems that way. But again, not a personal attack at all.

Carlington wrote:I'm Richie Tozier, town's universal backup. That's why my 'no result' claim was the way it was. I wanted townies to think about why I might claim that way and conclude that I had some power that wasn't usable N1, so that they might have some idea we had a backup.


Ugh @ incomplete claims... Is your ability automatic (e.g. first PR to be lynched/NK'd) or do you choose what dead PR you become? Failure to explain your roles full mechanics like this always bothers me... It's so easy for scum to fakeclaim a well known role archetype and just say "I'm a basic X." I'd be more confident in your claim if you had been more specific about what exactly you do.

Also, how in the world are we supposed to deduce that you not taking an action N1 = Role backup? There are myriad roles that can't act on N1, let alone can't take affirmative actions at all. Mafia has tons of passive, non-targeting roles that wouldn't do anything on ANY night. Is it the meta of this forum to neglect to use such roles or something, thus substantially thinning the pool of potential roles you could have been hinting at? Like I'm legitimately curious because I have no idea how anyone would think it was remotely possible that it could be reasonably concluded with any amount of confidence that a claim of "I took no action N1" = we probably have a backup. Which leads me to...

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:That's L-1 I believe. Please nobody else vote for Carlington until everybody has had a chance to contribute further. I don't agree with the lynch anyway, and I believe his claim (I'd guessed that he was backup based on the claim already).


HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU GUESS THAT!? No seriously, how could you have possibly made a guess like that with any kind of confidence? This is actually stunning to me

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 3:47 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:I'll let jimbob answer for himself, but for my part the thought process is a combination of meta and other factors. Yes, certain roles appear here more frequently than others.
Uhhhh ok, so care to explain what exactly that combination of "meta and other factors" was? You're on the chopping block right now bro, and a response of "my thought process was a combo of stuff" to the question "how did you come to the conclusion that making X claim would communicate Y inference" is surprisingly unhelpful and non-explanatory.

Like obviously some roles appear more often than others in any given mafia community. How does that help me glean your thought process? Are you saying that passive and/or even night only roles are particularly rare here or something? Basically what I'm saying is that it would have been nice to hear your actual rationale rather than "my rationale was based on a combo of stuff."

Carlington wrote:As for the particular mechanics, I get to choose a power that a dead town player had. However, I can't use the same power two nights in a row unless it's unavoidable, and in general can't use the same power twice unless it's unavoidable. Also, the wording of the PM suggests there are roles I cannot use, as I'm told I'll be given a list to choose from each morning.
So you're saying that you don't actually assume a given dead player's power permanently, but rather, you get to pick from any power that any dead town player had on any given night to use as long as you don't use the same power back to back?

Not exactly what I expect when I hear a town backup claim. This seems substantially more powerful. Not sure if that means that you're not just claiming the easy backup archetype because you're scum and don't have a detailed safeclaim or if you just don't actually know how a backup typically works and are making up something that sounds plausible to you but in reality is extremely powerful. Would love to hear other players' thoughts on this claim.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 4:03 pm UTC

Also food for thought generally: If people buy Carlington's claim (not the way I'm leaning atm) and we have a reasonably confident alternative play, we could direct Carlington to investigate or track a player of our choosing since we have a dead cop and a dead tracker already. Of course the drawback is if he's scum and we let him live and then rely on his investigation for tomorrow's play, we're all but guaranteed to lose at that point unless we nail mafia with today's lynch and/or get some lucky mafia/SK crossfire.

Btw did anyone ever confirm/deny for me whether it is common practice here to give SK's full bulletproof here? What about 1 shot bulletproof? Basically is the any actual real chance of mafia crossfiring the SK?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 4:10 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:The other factor is that I went out of my way to claim no result the specific way I did for a reason - that reason being the implication that there was something special about N1 in particular which didn't apply to any other night.
Also, why are you calling me out for not fully answering a question which you addressed to jimbob?


If it was your intent to communicate that you didn't do anything on N1 but that was likely to change in the future I did not get that message. Though I can understand on some level that you didn't necessarily broadcast that you had a potentially targeting PR that would become active later. Then again, the fact that the setup was all PRs of some sort mitigates this risk aversion rationale.

The question was addressed to both of you. I was asking you to explain how you could possibly conclude that saying "I did nothing N1" would suggest you were a backup, and I was asking jimbob how the hell he could possibly been on the same page as you with that. Both your belief that your non action claim would cause other players to think "maybe hes a backup" and jim's conclusion that you were likely a backup merely from that non action claim are both baffling to me.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 4:35 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Carlington's claim is interesting, especially with the added detail he's given. Sabrar advertised this game as having simple roles with some small changes. That's more than just a small change though. A typical Universal Backup will inherit one role, usually the first role to die, but sometimes they get to choose a town player that died Day 1 or Night 1. Either way, that's them, permanently. Carlington's claim is a bit different in that he pulls any power from any dead player throughout the game. I think it was FrozenFlame who mentioned that a backup can also be a scum ability - it's rare, but possible. Leeching off of the dead like that strikes me as flavourfully a very scummy take on a typically town role, and also mechanically eliminates the swinginess from scum getting stuck with a bad role or blessed with a good one. I doubt he's lying, but I think he's scum.


Excellent analysis here. I definitely didn't say that backup could easily be functional and fair scum role, so I won't take credit for that, but it's absolutely true. Pulling powers from dead players that you can't use back to back could very easily be either a town or scum power as it has a lot of utility for both factions and has the added bonus as a scum ability of providing scum access to "pro town" powers that they can use to generate disinformation.

So yeah, completely agree Carlington could be 100% telling the truth about his role's abilities but still be scum. Still not ruling out the possibility that he just got a safeclaim of "Backup" and is filling in the blanks himself. Or maybe he didn't get a safeclaim at all, though I'd be shocked to hear that it isn't meta here to provide safeclaims in games where all players are guaranteed a power role. Absent safeclaims in those types of games you run a very serious risk of your games devolving into mass claim-a-thons.

SDK wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Btw did anyone ever confirm/deny for me whether it is common practice here to give SK's full bulletproof here? What about 1 shot bulletproof? Basically is the any actual real chance of mafia crossfiring the SK?

I didn't catch you asking that before. Can you show me where you did so?

SK needs something to make them slightly more powerful. Protection from the mafia kill is one common way. Making them a godfather, or a ninja, or having an unblockable kill are other common ways to balance them that I've seen on this site. Sometimes a combination of more than one of those (like when I was SK in Discworld Mafia - I felt bloody unstoppable there!).

Went back and checked my posts and I actually never asked this, my bad. I thought for sure I had included it in my first paragraph of post #181 but apparently I neglected to do so.

You say "protection from the mafia kill is one common way." Do you mean unlimited protection, or one shot protection? Big difference. I assume that SK's are immune to cop investigations since most cops return "Mafia/Not Mafia" where Independent falls into Not Mafia so I presumed any SK here would have that boon in addition to other protections, but maybe that was a bad assumption? I've definitely seen other buffs like unstoppable kill and ninja (untrackable/unwatchable) in games before so I agree with what you're saying here. Just mostly interested in how this forums trends re: bulletproofness.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 4:35 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Btw did anyone ever confirm/deny for me whether it is common practice here to give SK's full bulletproof here? What about 1 shot bulletproof? Basically is the any actual real chance of mafia crossfiring the SK?


Bulletproof SK is definitely not common practice, I'd say. Ninja type role is probably most common, but they have had a range of powers.
This is helpful, ty!

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 4:38 pm UTC

Also @ SDK to clarify, when I ask what you mean when you say "bulletproof is one common way", not only am I asking whether 1-shot bulletproof vs. full time bulletproof is more common, but also I'm asking whether or not those protections are common HERE on this forum specifically, as I understand that they are generally common buffs to give to SKs. Definitely looking for whatever data can be provided re: what is likely to be given in THIS community.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 2 - Misfortune

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue May 02, 2017 11:40 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Man. From my point of view, jimbob has at LEAST 3 non-mafia in his bottom four scum assuming mpolo and Zyth are telling the truth (I can't think of a reason the latter would lie unless it's some CRAZY gambit). What's really wild about this reads list is Carlington being so high up on the town list. jimbob has been justifying Carlington's play lately in a way that I just do NOT comprehend from a townie perspective considering the general dislike towards the slot. We also know that jimbob has self-admittedly been looking out for peoples' roles (I did the same with Zyth, but meta played a large part on my end) which is obviously helpful towards scum. Either jimbob is especially skilled at reading Carlington while no one else is (this may be the case, I don't know), or he has some information that the rest of us don't to either keep his hands free of a slot strongly disliked or a scumbuddy. There was also him blatantly SK hunting in-thread and trying to get others to talk about it, which I'm surprised garnered no attention.

I'm thinking a jimbob/Carlington 1-2 punch is in order. I know people have been reading him as town/neutral for whatever reason, but frankly that's not the strongest reason considering the result of the directions we've been going this day phase.
lol my thoughts exactly. Either its you Zyth and GoP pulling some all in gambit hoping that town really is THAT close to MYLO/LYLO, or we have some combo of carlington/jimbob/???.

Yolo and Zyth have really felt synced up this game which has bothered me a lot and feeds into my paranoia that they're playing me hard. My heart wants me to believe the HBC crew is all town so I'll openly admit my bias here. But I can't deny that you (Yolo) perfectly calling the PR informed read that Zyth had on GoP is sending off alarm bells. Then again, I'm not sure if you would opt to pull such an all in when GoP is really barely a secondary wagon. Yeah GoP wagon has gained some momentum in the waning hours of the day but even still, doing an all in just to clinch an already likely carlington lynch seems like too much. But hey, it has been awhile since we've played so maybe you've acquired a penchant for risky plays in my absence.

If the general consensus is that this crazy last minute HBC read callout & claim is setting off alarm bells for others, I'm open to being persuaded to calling bullshit and stabbing at a GoP/Yolo/Zyth scum team. But my gut is telling me that this is wayyyyyy too much of a gambit to take knowing that an SK is out there that could completely fuck their quick endgame prospects and the whole scheme could unravel upon a carlington town flip and a lucky SK kill revealing one of those three to be scum overnight.

Keeping my vote on Carlington for now but Ill be watching the thread through the night to see what everyone's feeling.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed May 03, 2017 1:57 pm UTC

Man I feel seriously played right now. Scum must be keeping me and my shitty reads alive for a reason. It's time to call bullshit on this whole thing.

We've gotta be at 3/3/1 with an SK or 4/3 with a vig which would explain why mpolo got offed last night. Not sure why mafia or an SK would kill off an independent instead of forcing town out of contention considering he made it clear in his claim that his win condition was solely related to his GA target's survival, suggesting he could be a shared victor. But then again, maybe no one actually targetted mpolo and he used his protection ability last night, guessed right, and died in the place of his GA?

Regardless, I'm down for mass claim. We've got nothing to lose at this point considering one more mislynch and town is all but guaranteed to lose. I have somewhat valuable information to share, and I think it will have greater utility in the context of the full setup. Determining claim order will certainly be important though.

Also NO ONE SHOULD VOTE RIGHT NOW. If we are 3/3/1 all it takes is one vote on a non scum and scum can alpha strike us for the win. So let's be smart here and put everything on the table before we take any such risks.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed May 03, 2017 4:42 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I'm assuming mpolo was the mafia kill, likely trying to kill the SK? Either they hit the SK and mpolo used his bodyguard, or they killed mpolo because they thought he was the SK. Either way, the SK kill must have been BoomFrog since them killing mpolo doesn't make any sense (it's pretty clear that Charlie is our SK now - "You are immune to any action she performs" makes that crystal clear).


This a great observation re: the flavor text. It also just straight up makes sense flavor wise; Charlie was the subject of presumably torturous experiments and is now on an unhinged killing rampage with her deadly pyrokinetic powers.

SDK wrote:I suggest we do popcorn style for the mass claim. Someone claims first, then chooses who claims next after they claim. I don't trust Gopher enough to have him make the full list, but I'd be happy with him making the first choice for who leads us off. Everyone okay with that?
I'm ok with this though it does run the risk of substantially undermining the utility of my full claim depending on who goes before/after me. I have information on two players that could potentially confirm or contradict their claims, but obviously if I claim before them they're going to adjust their fakeclaim to be consistent with what I have.

I'd prefer not to name the players that I have info on for obvious reasons but I'd much rather reveal who I have info on in order to secure my claim going after theirs, than claim before them. If people trust me obviously I'd rather go after my targets without revealing who they are first, which means I'd need to go near the end of the claim order, but I get that people probably don't trust me enough for that and would compromise by revealing who they are if necessary.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Frankly, I think SDK and jimbob should crossvote.


Dude wtf? This is insanely reckless. Why would we do something like that before massclaim and potentially throw the game? Plus, why crossvote? You get the same info if just one of them votes for the other. If they're both town and one votes the other, scum alphastrikes and wins. If its TvS, scum doesn't alpha strike and we're able to deduce that one of them is scum. If they crossvote you get the same results so I'm not sure whats so signifcant about cross voting. Either way, it's a horrible idea. Not a good look rn homie

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed May 03, 2017 9:14 pm UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:We'd do something like that to keep the focus on two slots and not allow claim shenanigans to district us.

Imo, jimbob and SDK are the likeliest slots to fool town as a whole. I'm willing to go all in on at least one of them being scum because I feel town has to do a 180 on its generally accepted town reads (both of them have been). I understand mass claim is the textbook play here, but I believe now's the time to YOLO it and bite the bullet.


Like SDK said above, I don't agree with this at all. What could the claims possibly distract us from? We have zero scum flips to draw connections from, and clearly our scumdars have been way off this game. We're wandering around in the dark and not hitting anything, so I really don't understand what positive material a mass claim could distract us from. It's not like we have a good thing going here. What we've been doing hasn't been working, so I think the textbook play is EXACTLY what we need. I know its not your style, and YOLOing is definitely what you'd trend toward generally, but in this specific scenario I'd expect a townie you to show a little more restraint. I'm not saying your argument is necessarily being made in bad faith here but to be honest it just seems wildly inappropriate given the situation we're in. We really, really need something new to focus on right now and put everything we have on the table because our flow is what got us to this dire situation, so I'm not particularly confident it's going to get us out.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Why did you spend so much time talking about my crossvote combo? If it doesn't make a difference, I see no reason to harp on it as much as you did.


I'll admit this is a clever way to throw my own argument back in my face but I wouldn't say I was harping on it so much as I was being over thorough in my explanation of why cross voting was superfluous. It just stuck out to me as an impulsive and reckless suggestion, mostly by virtue of the fact that it risks an alpha strike. I'll admit my shock at you recommending that we throw out votes and risk an alpha strike certainly informed my response and resulted in my overdone engagement with why in particular cross voting was superfluous. It was my own kneejerk reaction to what I perceived as your impulsive suggestion. So yeah strictly logically speaking I could have just said cross vote is functionally equal to one voting for the other but your suggestion simply got a rise out of me given the situation we're in.

Anyway, seems to me that the general consensus thus far is that we should popcorn claim with GoP picking who starts. I'm fine with this as well. Can we get the ball rolling on this?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 3 - Misunderstood

Postby FrozenFlame » Fri May 05, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

Alright so my turn. Based on what I've got, SDK's claim checks out and YOLO looks hella scummy.

I'm David Carver, town JOAT. I have three abilities: Watcher, Tracker, and Commuter. I can use any one of those abilities each night, but I can never use the same ability on consecutive nights.

N1 I targetted Yoloswag with my Watcher ability. The result was that I couldn't focus on the target long enough to get my ability to work. I couldn't tell at the time whether that result was the product of me being roleblocked, or YOLO having some kind of ninja-esque/untargetable power. Given the fact that SDK tried targetting YOLO on a different night (N2) and got a similar no-results result, this strongly suggests to me that my N1 ability failure on YOLO was the result of an innate ability of his. His claim of full time commuter (though broken as fuck) is consistent with our ability failures. Personally though I don't buy that any player in this game would be given a commuter ability like that. It's completely broken and amounts to giving someone the ability to be full time bulletproof/untargettable with absolutely no drawback. I was shocked to hear that commuters in this game don't also leave the game for the following day phase when they choose to protect themselves by commuting at night. I've never played with a commuter without that massive drawback to using their power. To be able to commute to gain full nigth immunity with no cost, and to be able to do that EVERY night, is to me just patently broken and couldn't possibly be a real role. Furthermore, based on the claims we've heard, it seems like the mod has limited a number of our roles by adding the limitation that many powers cannot be used back to back on consecutive nights, mine included. YOLO's claims contradicts that completely and thus stands out. Based on all this, I think YOLO is our likely SK and has some kind of permanent cloaking/untargettable ability, hence the back to back failures of my watching of him and SDKs attempted copping.

N2 I used my tracking ability on SDK, which returned that SDK had targeted YOLO swag that night. This confirms that he did in fact blunder N2 and didn't use both of his abilities that he could have. So though it is possible that for whatever reason SDK deliberately didn't use his second ability N2 like he could have, it at least isn't the case that he did in fact use two separate abilities but is now lying about it. Therefore I'm pretty confident that SDK in fact did honestly neglect to read his ability info thoroughly and messed up, likely in conjunction with the fact that he inadvertently hammered.

So yeah, with all that said, and with LaserGuy confirming that he's a roleblocked and did not target me nor SDK on the nights that we didn't get results, I think it's all but certain that YOLO is anti-town. Personally I think his claimed ability suggests he's the SK and not mafia.

SDK's claims match everything I've gathered from my abilities so I very strongly believe him to be town using that evidence in conjunction with I think pretty solidly townie play through the game overall.

I'm gonna spoiler all the claims in this post just for easy reference:

SDK
Spoiler:
SDK wrote:I'm Red from Shawshank Redemption. I was in jail, now I'm not, something about being transported to a deserted world to protect something called the 'Beam', which I instinctually know to be a good thing (I'm assuming that's one of the beams that supports the Dark Tower, but that's not in my PM). I'm the type to make connections easily and find things out quickly based on what other people need.

I am a Follower. Each night I may target another player to find out what kind of ability s/he used (one of killing, protective, investigative or other). However, I continually need to expand my network, so I can't target the same player on consecutive nights.

I used that ability on FrozenFlame Night 1. He used an investigative ability.

Something else happened Night 1. I got an item, described as my "heart's desire", a pair of sun glasses with X-ray vision capabilities. They gave me a 1-shot cop. So I used those Night 2 instead of my Follower ability. After the events of Day 2, I wanted to target Zyth, but because I screwed up the hammer I wasn't able to change my target from YOLOSWAG. It didn't matter anyway because my ability failed, losing me the glasses in the process. I'm not sure if that's because I was roleblocked, or because YOLOSWAG was untargetable or something, but there you go.


YOLO
Spoiler:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm Johnny Marinville, a commuter. I've used my ability every night.


Jimbob
Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I am Ben Hascom from It. I am an Inventor who can create a set of 1-shot items, one each night, and once only per item, that I give to individuals. Specifically, I can create x-ray sunglasses that reveal the true nature of their target (cop), a bottle of mysterious pills (doctor), a special cloak, similar to chameleon-skin (bulletproof), and a battery-operated security camera (watcher). I gave SDK the sunglasses N1 and BoomFrog the cloak N2. Apparently the cloak didn't come into effect until after kills were resolved.

My concern with SDK is that he only claimed to use one action N2. My role PM explicitly says that the items can be used simultaneously with any abilities my target may have, so either he is lying about his N2 action, or he is unable to read PMs received from the mod properly. I doubt the latter, and it builds on my earlier concern, re. last night's hammer.


Zyth
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm Charile McGee, a one shot vig. I didn't do anything N1, GoP approached me with his ability and we are now in a neighbourhood, as stated previously, where he is confirmed town to me. N2 I shot mpolo, after lots of debating with myself, over shooting jimbob who close to the end of D2, I felt had pretty high chance to be scum. I finally decided to shoot mpolo as I was convinced that it'd be the better choice due to GoP telling me in one of his posts in our private chat "you won't hit town at least". With mpolo's flip, I now know that my shot failed on him, which means mafia killed him, or they attempted to kill me, while he used his Guardian Angel ability.


LaserGuy
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm Father Callahan from Salem's Lot and the Dark Tower. I have a holy crucifix that I can use to stun enemies. I am a standard roleblocker except I can't target the same person on consecutive nights. N1 I targeted BoomFrog. N2, I targeted Gopher.


GoP
Spoiler:
Gopher of Pern wrote:I am Mother Abigail, and I am a mason recruiter, and when I recruit someone, they get a confirmation that I am town. I do not get any confirmation on their abilities.

N1 I targeted Zyth, it was a toss up between them and plytho as two of my towniest reads at the time.


Closing thoughts:

@ Laserguy: What other reason do you have that confirms YOLO as scum? You mentioned this in your claim, but didn't explain. More information can't hurt though I think he's all but guaranteed to be anti-town at this point. It's important for us to figure out if he's SK or mafia though because I'm pretty sure at this point that we actually need to lynch MAFIA right now and not the SK, otherwise we kill the SK but then mafia just instant endgame us. Also, can you elaborate why you chose to block the people you did?

@ Zyth: Did you have any indication in your role PM that mpolo's role was in the game? That someone was trying to protect you? Any information like that at all?

GoP's role actually sounds like a friendly neighbor (Target player: player will received mod confirmation that you are town) as opposed to mason recruiter (Target player: if player is town, player joins you in a private masonry allowing outside thread communication between the two of you. If player is anti-town, you die. [This role, as I've seen it, often allows the recruiter to recruit once per night on a permissive basis, but results in the entire masonry dying if any non-town player is targeted for recruitment, forcing the leader to carefully weigh the risk-reward of continuing to recruit after one or two successful recruitments]), so I'm a bit concerned about your title claim though that can easily be chalked up to differences between moderators and how they describe/label roles. Not sure if this is worth the attention I'm giving it but wanted to bring it to everyone's attention and see what the xkcd natives here think.

Zyth's claim is weak and unconfirmable as fuck. Definitely one of the scummiest claims after YOLO.

Need to do some review of this game and digest all the claims. Now that we've got all the info on the table, let's put this shit together and go on a 2 out rally.


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