Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

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bessie
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III (pregame)

Postby bessie » Thu May 11, 2017 2:12 pm UTC

Confirm.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Fri May 12, 2017 1:38 am UTC

Bessie’s real life (non game content):
Spoiler:
There was an issue at work so I had to put in about 11 hours today, and I expect similar tomorrow. I probably won’t have time to contribute tonight, as I am going to the airport to pick up my mother-in-law for a six day visit. The good news is that as a result of these two events, by tomorrow night I should be sufficiently frustrated, angry, annoyed, and confrontational enough to produce some excellent content! :D

Gopher of Pern wrote:Secondly, Bessie, you scallywag! I demand you remove your vote at once!

Why don’t you try and make me.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sat May 13, 2017 2:14 am UTC

Greetings all, like BoomFrog, I did not expect this game to start so soon. I just finished another 11 hour work day and am catching up now, so I will post content as I have it. If I haven’t addressed something directed at me, it’s probably because I missed it or haven’t read that far yet. Feel free to ask me if you have any questions.

DethStalker, welcome to the forums! We’re always happy to have new players. I noticed your post count is still “1”. Until your post count reaches “5” you will have some posting restrictions. Posts in Forum Games and in the Mafia forum do not count to increase your official post count. Please go to this thread in the General forum and make four additional posts. So, do you have any experience playing mafia? You don’t need to post in character, or in verse, but we would like you to post something.

DGames Bard, visitor from another land, companion of noble YOLOSWAG, it is a pleasure to meet you too! I hope you enjoy your time with us, perchance enough to stay awhile.

Gopher of Pern wrote:My comment about the vote mechanics was mainly about the one or two visible vote manipulations: dethstalker having an extra vote on them, and bessie having an automatic vote on me.

Wouldn't it be better for town to know the details of them?
Is dethstalker simply a guilty looking townie who has 1 automatic vote on them? Or does someone have a secret vote on them?
Does bessie get an automatic vote on me? Is she a compulsive voter? Can she choose to change her vote?
Re my earlier challenge to you, I would consider moving my vote, but as yet I have been presented with no compelling reason to do so, as I see no evidence that you are a better actor than I and deserving of the lead role. Perhaps your efforts could be put to better use in hunting scum than in fishing for a potential power I may possess.

BoomFrog wrote:Let sleeping Bessie's lie.
Woof. :)

More later. Or hopefully sooner.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sat May 13, 2017 2:59 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:bessie's lack of reaction on SDK's reveal is noteworthy.
No, it’s not really. Honestly, I just haven’t had an opportunity to give it the attention it deserves. My mother-in-law is behaving as expected, so I consumed too much alcohol at dinner and was not in a state to compose a coherent post. In retrospect, I nonetheless should have posted, because unlike other inferior actors, even incapacitated I always give a superior performance.

SDK wrote:Are you asking this because bessie is town? Because she is. Good to know that someone else got that confirmation in their role PM too.
Ah, my dear dear brother Edgar, rival for our father’s attention, why would you even make such a claim? My first instinct is that it is one of your famous D1 antics, made to provoke reaction among the players and amuse the spectators. Interestingly, you did not back off your claim later, but you in fact doubled down on the claim in later posts. I do not believe that if you indeed do have this information, that it is a pro-town act to revel such information in your second post (and it is your second post because confirmation posts count, a debate which I would eagerly take up with any who so challenge this proclamation, at a time when it would be appropriate to current game content and thus not be considered active lurking). But I also find it a curious claim as scum, because it doth “confirm” a townie. Could the true purpose be to set up an obvious NK target, and to provoke all appropriate town powers (doctor, watcher, etc) to use their power on said target, thus leaving scum free to select another target unimpeded and unobserved? This too seems somewhat dubious, which leads me to a third possibility, that SDK has an independent win condition, and this may be an attempt to deflect the mafia kill, because it would not be in the best interests of mafia to kill a target that would confirm another player as town when the role pm is revealed. I will need to ponder these possibilities a bit longer. I begrudgingly admit that SDK is one of the finest actors to grace our stage, and he does not miss his cues during a performance, so any claim he makes is for a carefully thought out reason.

Sabrar and everyone else, I’m working on my replies, but I need to go out for a few hours. I am not deliberately ignoring any content…yet. I’ll post in bits and pieces until I catch up.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sat May 13, 2017 3:26 pm UTC

Sabrar, I needed to pick and choose as time allowed. Discuss SDK, or Gopher, or something else? Something’s going to get picked, something’s going to have to wait. And I’m not so much prioritizing as I am posting things as they come to me.

Sabrar wrote:On a related note: I'll be heartily considering to lynch DethStalker on D2 for balance reasons if daystart votals will once more contain an additional vote on him, as he's a complete liability in LYLO situations if Town, therefore I do not think that is the case. OTOH don't think that scum would be outed so easily as well, so thoughts welcome on this matter.

Some quick thoughts on DethStalker. I think that if DethStalker is town, I need to think about this statement, because it unfortunately makes sense. But this alone would not be enough for me to lynch him, because a townie producing superior reads and content would be worth the risk. So what do we know so far about DethStalker?
1. He did not read the xkcd Forum Rules, stickied at the top of every subforum.
2. He did prepare and take care of the posting restriction before the game started, even though he was tagged by SDK and given instructions how to do so in the sign up thread so had ample opportunity.
3. He has still not responded to further instruction and assistance given by me near the top of this page.
4. He has managed to make three posts with no content.
5. He has not responded to any questions.

Conclusion, DethStalker, you are already a liability; you need amaze us with some spectacular content soon. We’re trying to help you out here. If you’re new to the game, please ask any questions you may have.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sat May 13, 2017 8:21 pm UTC

I’m still reading/analyzing the thread and just making the odd post as I have time.

Madge, you need to post. Your lack of content is second only to DethStalker, with dimochka running a close third.

mpolo wrote:If there is a jester in the game, a jester win would end the game.

This is not the answer I expected, and it makes me suspect there is not a jester in the game, because I can't see a mod putting in the work required to set up and run a game and having it end on D1.

I'm only home for a few minutes and need to go out again. Can someone try to milk some actual content from DethStalker? I see he is on line.

Multi-ninja'd. Role playing, Shakespeare quotes, etc are encouraged (and appreciated!) but do not substitute for actual content.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sun May 14, 2017 7:14 am UTC

I beg forgiveness for my lackluster content, and shall make an effort to correct the situation without further delay. I was unavailable this past afternoon, as I was engaged in a journey to a local park of note. A magical kingdom, regarded by some on this earth to be the happiest of places, yet somehow made less happy by the presence of my mother-in-law.

Great Zeus, why didst thou, to man's sorrow, put woman, evil counterfeit, to dwell where shines the sun? If thou were minded that the human race should multiply, it was not from women they should have drawn their stock, but in thy temples they should have paid gold or iron or ponderous bronze and bought a family, each man proportioned to his offering, and so in independence dwelt, from women free. But now as soon as ever we would bring this plague into our home we bring its fortune to the ground. 'Tis clear from this how great a curse a woman is;

Oops, please excuse the misplaced dialogue, for in my distress it seems I have forgotten the play at hand, and instead relapsed into my much forgotten but nonetheless award-worthy performance of Hippolytus, that was unjustly unrecognized as one of the greatest performances of the role in modern times.

As I am now caught up to the events of our current play, I have made careful note of some things that stand out to me, and that I have hereto not commented.

Sabrar wrote:On a really serious note I'm eagerly awaiting bessie's analysis on DGames, LaserGuy, SDK, YOLOSWAG and Znirk.
Why me? Why these five? And why so serious?

SDK wrote:Speaking of role PM's, I'm just going to say this now: I have never received a more scummy town role PM. And I've been a Miller more than once (though I am not a Miller now).
mpolo wrote:The roles you have received are completely randomized, as are the powers. The groupings of factions were also completely randomized, though some powers were guaranteed to go with a certain faction. As a result, I have not provided "safe claims". Some powers may be duplicated, or be copied as a one-shot version of the same power.
I think this will keep me safe when it comes time to claiming, but I just wanted to get that out of the way.
I hope, for my brother's justification, he wrote this but as an essay or taste of my virtue, for I know not what to make of it. The reference to the words of our esteemed mod makes me think you wish to imply that your role/character is scummy, but since the alignments were randomized it means your scummy character is not indicative of a scummy alignment. This confuses me because legitimate Edgar is not villainous role. I, Edmund the bastard, claim the most villainous role in this play! :P

LaserGuy wrote:Second, I find SDK's assertion of bessie to be town to be most alarming, as it will require some heroic effort to keep her alive if this claim is true.
I’m wondering why you felt the need to point this out. Perchance you did want to ensure your scum partners didn’t miss it? Êtes-vous un roi ou un méchant?

DGames | Bard wrote:Forgive me, as I am new here, and so I am still ascertaining the qualities of this stage; where art thy proof of Bessie's innocence?
Wine warning. Tis a jest at my expense, for they refer to my infamous townie meta. I’m always town. I’ve played not scum for well over a year. I’ve been playing mafia for about three and a half years, on this stage only, and I played for about fourteen months before I was mafia. Methinks I’ve been mafia four times ever, and two of them were as replacements. There was a similar joke reference to freezeblade’s scummy meta; I think he had a ten game streak.

Gopher of Pern wrote: The fun will be in voting mechanics. So I think it would be a good idea if anyone who knows their own abilities to change votes, should declare them early, so town can compensate for them. Scum may be able to manipulate them as well, but as the lynch is town's best (maybe only) way to kill scum, more open information about it would be better.
Methinks thou art role fishing. As pointed out by others, this would probably give more information to scum. But it does make me think we all need to be very careful with our votes, since we do not know what powers are in play. And as was implied by our all-powerful director, an accidental hammer is possible.

bessie wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Secondly, Bessie, you scallywag! I demand you remove your vote at once!

Why don’t you try and make me.
I find it interesting this challenge was completely unacknowledged by you. Perhaps some blood drawn on me would beget opinion of my more fierce endeavour.

LaserGuy wrote:I am pleased that Gopher shares my suspicion of the villain SDK. We are kings together and are therefore above reproach, though he is a bit long winded for my liking.
Would you care to elaborate on this suspicion? Because the only thing you had said about SDK up to this point was the piece I quoted above.

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: would you mind voting someone else and letting official votals confirm it?
Missed this before. I’ll move my vote if and when my suspicion of Gopher of Pern is surpassed by yet another candidate.

SDK wrote:I think DethStalker might be scum, by the way.
Will you thus enlighten us with your reasons, or was this in your role PM too?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Ok, so there are now two votes on DethStalker, including my own. I am going to guess at one of the following, since my guesses in the last game were apparently pretty accurate.
1) Somebody has a secret vote power, that is somehow compulsive.
2) DethStalker always appears to have an additional vote on himself. This may or may not actually count.
3) The vote by bessie is in fact targeting DethStalker, and the vote on Gopher is a phony.
4) My vote on DethStalker is actually two votes for some reason, probably related to a passive ability from DethStalker.
5) Probably something else entirely.
There are so many things with this post that ping me, I know not where to start. Looking through later content, it seems that points #1-5 have been much discussed, so I see not a need to further pursue this line of thought. I would like to add that I find interesting the carefully placed statement alluding to your aptitude for accurate reads. Thank you for throwing that out there!

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:An interesting point to note is that mpolo explicitly said in this post that there were 9 people not voting, when there were apparently 7 votes + the "nobody" on DethStalker down. I don't know quite what to make here. One thing I will say is that I may be suspicious of anybody who is not voting for SOMEBODY at day end, as it would be good to help clarify certain vote shenanigans, though I guess town!double voters etc might not want to reveal their hand this early. I definitely don't believe that a general claim/demonstration of all vote-manipulating abilities at this stage is worthwhile.
Hmm. You and Gopher of Pern are very interested in potential voting powers, and are fishing hard for information.

DethStalker wrote:(Im character)
Thou, a noble, hated. Thou? Shall thy?
Are you trying to claim something?

BoomFrog posts a most impressive reads list. He manages communicate in just a few words a subtle but precise assessment of every player in the game. I’m quite amused by his read of me. :)

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:A confirmed townie is one of the most likely players to get killed by a night kill, and that would fulfil the lyncher win condition from the last Shakespeare game. Lyncher!SDK might believe that it is going to be almost impossible to get a lynch on bessie (what with her having a really townie meta), so is hoping scum will do his work for them.
Thank you for again pointing this out! There’s a chance that scum somehow missed LaserGuy’s earlier helpful post! Coordination will be so much easier at night, won’t it?

DethStalker wrote:Thou, shall I say? Questions? Thy, hated, is one of all. Hated, hated I say!
I do not understand what you are attempting to communicate. Is hated an aspect of your role? If it is, it does not seem to me very townie.

DethStalker wrote:
Sabrar wrote:@DethStalker: I apologize but I'm unable to decipher your meaning. Please speak in plain terms so that I may answer your question (if you had any).

Decipher? Thy mean if'nt simple; all thy; a misunderstand.

TDLR;
(That would be Krul [VGF])
Ok, done with you. If you’re not going to try, so be it. You are wasting the very precious and limited time of the kind people who have attempted to welcome you to the forum. This one's for you.

This is the excellent foppery of the world, that, when we are sick in fortune, often the surfeit of our own behaviour, we make guilty of our disasters the sun, the moon, and the stars; as if we were villains on necessity; fools by heavenly compulsion; knaves, thieves, and treachers by spherical pre-dominance; drunkards, liars, and adulterers by an enforc'd obedience of planetary influence; and all that we are evil in, by a divine thrusting on.

Ah, this time, the correct soliloquy. And with this I shall make my departure until to-morrow, when I shall return with a proper reads list.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sun May 14, 2017 6:00 pm UTC

@DethStalker, jimbobmacdoodle is defending you. What is your opinion of jimbobmacdoodle? Do you think he is town?

Please answer in plain English, with no role playing and no Shakespeare quotes. I want no ambiguity your response.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sun May 14, 2017 9:31 pm UTC

Quick question for LaserGuy.
Re this post:
LaserGuy wrote:
Znirk wrote:I think we're all agreed Day One is hard,
Yet what I hear in the debate thus far
Hath led me to suspect of Gabriel
And Laser Guy, and to a lesser point,
I wonder at what Master SDK
Is up to when he shouts that Madge is town.

vote: Laserguy


Madge is town? How curious.

Unvote Znirk
What were you trying to do here? You were voting for SDK.

The next votals post has the votals correct if LaserGuy’s unvote was counted as an unvote SDK.
mpolo wrote:Votals:
DethStalker (2): #HBC | YOLOSWAG
Gopher of Pern (2): bessie, jimbobmacdoodle
dimochka (1): dimochka
SDK (2): Gopher of Pern, SirGabriel
freezeblade (1): SDK
#HBC | YOLOSWAG (1): Sabrar
LaserGuy (1): Znirk
Znirk (1): BoomFrog

Not voting: freezeblade, Madge, plytho, DethStalker, DGames | Bard, LaserGuy

I hope that's right…


mpolo, please confirm the votals are correct.

Pre post edit: Skimming jimbobmacdoodle’s long post, he noticed this too.

More later, I want to get this post up so mpolo sees it.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Sun May 14, 2017 10:59 pm UTC

@DethStalker

We as a group are very welcoming to new players. Everyone here is willing to help you. If you have a general Mafia gameplay question, or a question as to the forum rules, you may ask us in this thread, and someone will answer it truthfully.

If you have a specific question about this game or your role, please send a private message with your question to mpolo.

Although we all want to help you and hope you enjoy the game, your newbie status does not automatically give you immunity to the lynch. I strongly recommend you do the following.

1. Do not roleplay. It is just for fun and not required.
2. Do not try to post in the style of Shakespeare, or use Shakespeare quotes.
3. Answer questions directed at you.

If you are confused and don’t know where to begin, you may start by answering the question I asked you, which you quoted and to which you responded, but did not answer. Then you should read through the thread and answer the questions others have asked you.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Mon May 15, 2017 1:10 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:
Sabrar wrote:On a really serious note I'm eagerly awaiting bessie's analysis on DGames, LaserGuy, SDK, YOLOSWAG and Znirk.
Why me? Why these five? And why so serious?
Reasons already guessed by LaserGuy here (third point).
Sorry, missed that. For you, bessie's confirmation post analysis:

Znirk – Acceptable confirmation post, no warning bells.
SDK - His confirmation post is in the style of Edgar’s first soliloquy, where Edgar disguises himself as the madman Tom. A+ effort.
YOLOSWAG – Confirmation post was a single word, but later posted pre game content by needling plytho. Tsk tsk. :)
LaserGuy – Extended a welcome to the two new players. Suspicious for early buddying. Comprenez-vous?
DGames Bard – Responded to LaserGuy. New to the forum, so no information can be gleaned from this.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:bessie: Less content than normal from her, but she has got real-life reasons. Nothing major stood out to me as obviously scummy - it all seems fairly typical bessie so far (with the exception that she hasn't started massively tunnelling on somebody yet :P ). Moderately townie, partially influenced by SDK's claim.
bessie wrote:@DethStalker, jimbobmacdoodle is defending you. What is your opinion of jimbobmacdoodle? Do you think he is town?
I'm defending DethStalker?
Yes. And it was quite astute of you to figure out that your response, not DethStalker’s, was my primary goal in asking this question. Thank you for complying!

Gopher of Pern wrote:Re: Dethstalker, I doubt that they are scum. They seem like newbie town. While Sabrar's point is true, that they are a liability in the late game, I do not think that justifies an early lynching, especially over other, scummier, candidates. I think we have more to go on than that. But you should really make yourself clearer to understand. I have no idea what you said, and that's in the plain english version.
Bonus! Gopher of Pern defended DethStalker too! I’ll ask DethStalker for his reaction after he answers my previous question.

Gopher of Pern, would you perchance be so kind as to share with your fellow cast members a list of said scummier candidates?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Mon May 15, 2017 3:03 pm UTC

I think DethStalker is newbie scum. He was browsing the forum after I made this post and he still didn’t reply. He’s been offered help and made the decision not to even try participating. I wouldn’t object to getting rid of him.

LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Second, I find SDK's assertion of bessie to be town to be most alarming, as it will require some heroic effort to keep her alive if this claim is true.


I’m wondering why you felt the need to point this out. Perchance you did want to ensure your scum partners didn’t miss it? Êtes-vous un roi ou un méchant?


SDK's claim is arguably the most significant content that has been posted in all of D1. Certainly, at the time of my initial post, it was by far the most interesting bit of content that had been posted thus far. How could I not comment on it? When we are starved for content, I am happy to investigate whatever presents itself as most appetizing. For the latter, I do have a lovely 1512 vintage from the Loire that I'd be happy to share, but instead perhaps I'll simply suggest that you judge by my content and my actions.
It’s one thing to acknowledge SDK’s claim, what I find suspicious is that you also pointed out that I’m the obvious NK target. Are you trying to communicate something to a possible second scum faction, like hey bro which of us should bump her off?

LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:What were you trying to do here? You were voting for SDK.

The next votals post has the votals correct if LaserGuy’s unvote was counted as an unvote SDK.


I was voting for Znirk at the time. mpolo has already revealed more information on the matter than I would prefer. Je vais vous l'expliquer plus tard.
You had no reason to be voting for Znirk, unless you really didn’t like his confirmation post. And I feel I was justified in requesting the mod confirm the votals, because of the “I hope that’s right…” he added at the end.

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: do you think plytho is also defending DethStalker?
No. I think plytho is defending a course of action.

I found out my mother-in-law is leaving a day earlier than I expected :D but that means I will be driving her to the airport tomorrow morning and probably won’t be able to post, and I won’t be home from work at deadline, so my last opportunity to post will be tonight (16ish hours from now). I would like a short extension (maybe 24 hours?) because I feel D1 was not long enough under the circumstances (game started earlier than expected, 5 days too short for a 16 player game, holiday weekend, etc). What does everyone else think?

Unvote
Vote: jimbobmacdoodle

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Tue May 16, 2017 6:20 am UTC

Quick responses to today’s content. I should have time for proper reads tomorrow after work.

dimochka wrote:US folks - I didn't realize that the timer was based on time in Germany, and the current deadline is noon EST / 9am PST tomorrow (and I assume the time will remain the same while the day may be pushed out). Just wanted to point it out.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I totally missed this when I checked over the weekend and had the time wrong (I thought I was looking at 6pm Pacific).

SDK wrote: If bessie dies tonight, it will be me to blame, but it's still just one townie among many. Confirmed or not, this is for the best.
Thanks I love you too brother dearest.

dimochka wrote:- Yoloswag accepted the "bessie is town" argument much too easily. don't like it.
What I find interesting is those who so easily accepted SDK’s claim that I am town as truth, but would still label SDK scum.

dimochka wrote:- Vote GoP because he's a terrible father.
Cordelia, was this meant to be a serious vote?

dimochka wrote:- Note: I'm going to make a prediction that we have a 3-man regular scum team, and some possibly some kind of supernatural 2man team that may or may not be able to kill or communicate or something else.
Noting your note.

freezeblade wrote:SDK, for some reason, is pinging me much less this game than typically on D1, I don't know if that means they are more or less townie than normal, however.
This is the entirety of your player analysis for the whole week. How about some reads on the other fourteen participants in this game?

LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:It’s one thing to acknowledge SDK’s claim, what I find suspicious is that you also pointed out that I’m the obvious NK target. Are you trying to communicate something to a possible second scum faction, like hey bro which of us should bump her off?


Confirmed town is always an obvious NK target. Were I scum, this is hardly a revelation I would need to be sharing.
Apologies. Guess I was wrong. You must be town because it's always such an obvious town-tell when someone says "would I be doing this if I were scum?"

plytho wrote:I think bessie was trying to get a response out of DethStalker rather than you. I for one don't see the difference between your 'defense' of DethStalker and my defense of 'a course of action.
I see a difference, but perhaps I am the only one.

DGames | Bard wrote:Mmm, I'm not so sure how I feel about this sentiment. Perhaps I am misinterpreting the thought process here, but you imply that being hated =/= townie, but I have been in several games where a townie has been hated but had some kind of redeeming quality to make up for it. Is being 'hated' a generally scummy quality to have on xkcd?
I've never seen it before, so my first thought was that Hated would be something scummy. I didn't even think to look it up until Sabrar said there was a MafiaScum entry. (Bard, I've been playing a few years but I don't play too often, so my experience is not necessarily representative of xkcd. Oh and glad you enjoyed the wine.)

I'll try to get some more content up between airport and work tomorrow morning so that there is enough time for responses. I encourage everyone to do the same.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Wed May 17, 2017 1:56 am UTC

Unvote
Vote LaserGuy


This is to move LaserGuy’s vote from BoomFrog to myself. I don’t think I’m a lynch candidate today. Or maybe I am. I'll take that chance.

Unvote

dimochka wrote:
SDK wrote:Why do you say "Bessie is probably almost everyone's town read though"? Her behavior appears townish, but I hope you're not referring to my confirmation of her when you simultaneously don't think I'm telling the truth.

No sir, I'm referring to the general read people get from her across games. Though your note does give it slightly more credibility in my eyes.
I’m seriously considering FoSing everyone that labeling me townie for meta reasons. It’s a safe, dare I say lazy, read.

dimochka wrote:No, King Lear is Cordelia's father. He tries to convince her to profess her love for him and then banishes her when she refuses (I'm shortening and paraphrasing wikipedia). So I wouldn't call him a stellar father figure...
It was an oddly placed comment. Then I’ll just assume it was role playing.

BoomFrog wrote:Due to RL time crunch I'm going to drop the fancy prose this post. My apologies to my fans Bessie and plytho.
:( Ok this time. I’m expecting great things tomorrow.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:bessie - (1st in townie list, previously moderately townie, partly due to SDK claim): Her vote on me hasn't been explained explicitly, which as I've said before, I don't like in principle (applies to all votes after initial RVS, not just ones on me). I think she's being overly critical of LaserGuy's pointing out of her as a night target. Any scum worth their salt knows that a "confirmed" townie is bad for them (cue reaction from bessie that I'm pointing it out again),
Happy to comply! Here, have a quote:
bessie wrote:Apologies. Guess I was wrong. You must be town because it's always such an obvious town-tell when someone says "would I be doing this if I were scum?"


DethStalker wrote:um.. I have played mafia the real life one but I suck at It I played it a couple times.

Thee, playing, heinous, playing mafia; not extraordinare; just plain.
What BoomFrog and dimochka very politely said.

SDK wrote:If no one wants to follow me on Madge, I'd be okay with a DethStalker lynch, but that is super lazy and super unhelpful going forward. I'm not at all confident in my BoomFrog read, but I'd rather do that than a random. Even Znirk would be better.
I agree in principle with what you're saying, but the problem is that I think we may have to kill him to get rid of him. As has been pointed out, there's no justification for requesting a replacement/modkill because he's not actually breaking any rules, except maybe this one:
8. You may not play to lose, act in a way that is clearly against your win condition or ruin the game for other players.


I’ve been saving this because it is my favorite soliloquy and one of the greatest ever written. But I think DethStalker's earned this special performance.

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


Back with some reads later. I'm too annoyed to do it right now.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Wed May 17, 2017 5:14 am UTC

I was having trouble loading the forum too, and the time I set aside for this tonight is gone. Very poor list with gut reads. Everyone that knows me knows that this type of read is not my strong point, and not the way I like playing, but I want to get something up in case the forum goes out again. Sorry no role playing; you don’t know how this disappoints me.

Town

bessie as Edmund - Might be town. She’s so hard to read.

plytho as Goneril - He’s townier than me. Why don’t you all go tease him for a while instead?

BoomFrog as The Fool - Read the play, for the Fool is not. BoomFrog was well cast.

SirGabriel as the Earl of Gloucester - No warning signs. Consistent with his town meta.

dimochka as Cordelia - Solid content when he finally got to it. If he is town all his reads will be correct.

DGames | Bard as the Earl of Kent - I like what I’ve seen. I hope I’m alive tomorrow to interact with you more because I think I would enjoy it a lot.

freezeblade as the Duke of Cornwall - Hates D1 and doesn’t post much on D1 anyway, but content was light even for him.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG as the Doctor - I like him a lot, but that doesn’t mean he’s town.

Sabrar as Regan - I feel he’s more impatient and confrontational as scum, if that’s possible.

SDK as Edgar - Hell if I know. Brain says non-town, gut says non-scum.

Gopher of Pern as King Lear - Content similar to his town meta, which I usually read as scum anyway.

Madge as Oswald - Fluff. Her very few reads are borrowed from others. Would be scummier lean, but I also feel she would post more as scum.

Znirk as a Servant - Unlike him to abandon a game, I hope he’s ok. Oh and slight scum lean.

jimbobmacdoodle as an Officer - Same feeling as previous game: focused on things I see as secondary, noncommittal on things that matter. Scum lean.

LaserGuy as the King of France - Same feeling as jimbobmacdoodle.

DethStalker as the Duke of Burgundy - Scummiest player in the game. I’m not sure about his alignment though.

Scum

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Wed May 17, 2017 2:36 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, why do you think that you needed to move laserguys vote from Boomfrog to yourself? Boomfrog was in no danger of lynch. At that stage he had two votes.
At that point so did DethStalker (I think, but I don't have time to work it out right now). Plenty of time for you and your scum partners to try to swing the vote.

Prepost edit. Hmm. Interesting, and not what I expected.

Madge wrote:Dethstalker (but I think likely town despite this, if replacements grow on trees I want him replaced)
They don't. We don't even have a replacement for the player that legitimately asked for one. Interesting how you've felt the need to mention this. And what justification do you think mpolo has for replacing him when he hasn't asked for a replacement? Why do you want him replaced and not Znirk, who as gone AWOL?

SDK, do you also have an updated read of Madge?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Wed May 17, 2017 3:25 pm UTC

Thank you kalira. Madge, I still want you to reply to my previous post.

SDK wrote:- I am on the townie side of neutral despite being referred to as "a man of low character".
I often have the same read of you. :)

SDK wrote:Then there's his "in case of my death" post, which isn't really a scummy thing to do,
You did one of these D1 of Dark Tower mafia.

Agree with SDK’s read of Madge. Don’t agree with his read of BoomFrog, but between the two of them I am quite the novice and either can easily work me.

SDK wrote:YOLO, what does this mean?
:D

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Wed May 17, 2017 3:58 pm UTC

D1 final thoughts in case of my death. :shock:

Sorry to disappoint all those who expect me to tunnel, but I just couldn’t get a strong read on anyone, town or scum, probably due to my RL issues and not being able to observe the flow of the game as it unfolded. I don’t get the same feel reading 40 posts at once.

Interesting LaserGuy didn’t pop in to unvote. Rather careless for someone with his power. I should move him down on my list.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Sat May 20, 2017 4:24 am UTC

I have no results to claim.

LaserGuy wrote:
mpolo wrote:Votals:
Gopher of Pern (1): bessie


Noted for posterity.
Methinks you recognize as well that Gopher of Pern is an abominable actor, one who does not deserve the lead role, which by all rights should have gone to me. But alas, though not the star, I have been granted the greater role, for Edmund is among the most vile of the Bard’s villains, and the challenge of so complex a role is more fitting an actor of my great ability.

Unvote

I agree with those who speculate two anti-town teams, perhaps of 2-2 or 2-3. The town powers that have been revealed do not seem to me all that powerful. Sabrar had a one-shot doctor ineffective against one type of attack, and jimbob had a one-shot cop for only one type of scum, but he also had a vote manipulation power that may have been quite useful. So the weakish town powers might fit with two small teams, as opposed to two teams of three, where I might expect stronger town powers. DethStalker did have an unlimited strongman kill though. The one shot powers make me think that we have duplicates of these powers, or perhaps a JoAT or inventor, because one-shot-with-limitations doctor and cop don’t seem to be enough.

Sabrar wrote:I don't understand why I was killed.
You need but read the play. Regan was poisoned because of her love for me me me of course. :mrgreen:

plytho wrote:For some reason Gopher's town read on DethStalker keeps bugging me. Particularly the deflection towards bessie when I pushed him on it.
You mean this?
Gopher of Pern wrote:Plytho, do you really think if dethstalker was my scumbuddy I'd defend him like this? I'd be more likely to do something like bessie, try to coach them into better play. Which, if dethstalker does get lynched and ends up being scum, will be very informative.
So Gopher of Pern, DethStalker is lynched and scum, do share any reads you may have as a result of this.


SDK, I need to think about you a while, so I’m not commenting on you yet. Except for this.
SDK wrote: I'll still want to hear about it after BoomFrog and I beat each other bloody.
Oh oh oh, this should be quite entertaining. I hope they duel in character. :D


DGames | Bard wrote:Glad we nailed scum on our first go-around! Unfortunate though that the scum team had someone so inexperienced and...yeah. Welp.
Well, I’m disappointed because we as a community try to help out new players, but he wasn’t even trying. Unfortunate for his team, because I think that with his strongman-type power he may have been on the smaller of the two speculated scum teams. Oh, and that reminds me, Madge, are you going to answer this?
bessie wrote:
Madge wrote:Dethstalker (but I think likely town despite this, if replacements grow on trees I want him replaced)
They don't. We don't even have a replacement for the player that legitimately asked for one. Interesting how you've felt the need to mention this. And what justification do you think mpolo has for replacing him when he hasn't asked for a replacement? Why do you want him replaced and not Znirk, who as gone AWOL?


More later, I just got home. And I will be available this weekend.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Sat May 20, 2017 7:56 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:One other trifling matter... in this post you made an odd parenthetical comment "Prepost edit. Hmm. Interesting, and not what I expected." What were you referring to here?
I was typing this post:
bessie wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, why do you think that you needed to move laserguys vote from Boomfrog to yourself? Boomfrog was in no danger of lynch. At that stage he had two votes.
At that point so did DethStalker (I think, but I don't have time to work it out right now). Plenty of time for you and your scum partners to try to swing the vote.
When I was ninja’d by this:
SDK wrote:Unvote, Vote BoomFrog


Madge wrote:The reason I wanted dethstalker replaced is because I feel like it's not fair to mpolo and the rest of the players if a role is in the possession of someone who isn't even trying, you know? And that if someone doesn't seem to be trying, then it's not really something to lynch them over (OK, in this case it worked out, admittedly), it's where replacement would be more appropriate - again, if they grew on trees, which we know they don't.
What if he was a jester and trying to get lynched? Then his play would have been brilliant, and we would all be complimenting him now. I’m saying we have no justification to request the mod replace someone that hasn’t technically broken any rules because we don’t like his playstyle. We had a lot of justification to request Znirk be replaced. Why didn’t you request a replacement for him?

Sabrar wrote:EBWOP: got it. It was to create wine and lead Town towards jimbob. Yep, knew I shouldn't have posted that last bit on instinct.
Maybe Regan was killed because your reads were good. Hmm, I’m a bit amused that someone wanted Sabrar out of the game, and now he’s back. Someone out there must be quite annoyed.

Gopher of Pern wrote:And bessie, please lay off with the insults re: my acting. I am but an inexperienced actor, indeed, this is the first time I have played a big part in any production.
I'm afraid I don't have much of a choice. I think dimochka should be along soon to remind us that he is the real star of the show anyway.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Sun May 21, 2017 1:11 am UTC

bessie wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Due to RL time crunch I'm going to drop the fancy prose this post. My apologies to my fans Bessie and plytho.
:( Ok this time. I’m expecting great things tomorrow.


BoomFrog wrote: great things


[bessie's jaw hits the floor]

O that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew.
Or that our great Mod had not fix'd it in
His canon to play 'gainst one’s win-con barred.
How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable,
Seem to me all my content in this game.
My reads 'tis but an unweeded garden,
That grows no seed; That it should come to this!
So excellent BoomFrog; that was, to this,
Hyperion to a satyr; is he to me.
That he in mind and art compose this verse
While bessie doth purloin a great man’s words.


Back in a little while after I find some self-esteem.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Sun May 21, 2017 4:37 am UTC

O for a Muse of fire, that would ascend
The brightest heaven of invention.


Well the muse shall not be visiting me tonight :( , so here’s my analysis of the dead players in dull uninspired prose.

DethStalker as the Duke of Burgundy
I did have an early scum read on him, but that was irrelevant at first, he didn’t understand what was expected of him so I tried to help him out. As the day progressed I became more annoyed and I was pushing him for reads on jimbob (later Gopher). At that point I was more interested in whether his teammates would bus him to keep him quiet so that he wouldn’t implicate them.

jimbob and plytho read this wrong, it was not a joke. I was trying to provoke a response from jimbob.
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:bessie: Less content than normal from her, but she has got real-life reasons. Nothing major stood out to me as obviously scummy - it all seems fairly typical bessie so far (with the exception that she hasn't started massively tunnelling on somebody yet :P ). Moderately townie, partially influenced by SDK's claim.
bessie wrote:@DethStalker, jimbobmacdoodle is defending you. What is your opinion of jimbobmacdoodle? Do you think he is town?
I'm defending DethStalker?
Yes. And it was quite astute of you to figure out that your response, not DethStalker’s, was my primary goal in asking this question. Thank you for complying!

So who might have been bussing DethStalker? I was thinking about SDK’s change of heart from this:
SDK wrote:If no one wants to follow me on Madge, I'd be okay with a DethStalker lynch, but that is super lazy and super unhelpful going forward. I'm not at all confident in my BoomFrog read, but I'd rather do that than a random. Even Znirk would be better.

Ok after thinking about this all day, I’m not sure I can draw any useful conclusions from DethStalker’s wagon. YOLOSWAG is looking for his teammates off the wagon, but I think that his own teammates may have wanted him dead. Madge also pointed this out (noncommittal as to side though).
Madge wrote:GoP defending dethstalker is of course suspicious but I can't help but feel that in light of dethstalker's behaviour and refusal to engage with people, any scumbuddy(s) would raise their hands up in the air and decide that they're an SK. Then again - maybe they were hoping to get to N1 and see if they could shake some sense into him...


jimbobmacdoodle as an Officer
I was reading him as scum D1 for focusing on unimportant things and being noncommittal in his reads. In retrospect, I think some of that feel may have been due to his roleplaying as the peacemaker. jimbob knew there was a supernatural faction (from cop power) and was killed N1 by that faction. Why kill jimbob? He was at the top of bessie’s scum list so history tells us she would be tunneling on him D2 (ditto Sabrar?) and he would seem like a good mislynch candidate. And the supernatural scum team could have killed Sabrar instead of jimbob to further implicate him. Conclusion is that there must have been something of concern to the supernatural scum team in his reads. Jimbob’s scum reads were DGames Bard (active lurking), Gopher of Pern (content), LaserGuy (content), Sabrar (content), Znirk (content and possible scum with Madge). If his reads were the reason he was killed the most likely candidates are Gopher of Pern and LaserGuy, possibly Madge because Znirk was a likely modkill so if he was scum his alignment would be revealed and lead jimbob to Madge.

Sabrar as Regan
New avatar! Is that your dog? Sorry I get distracted when I see cute pictures of dogs! :D

Sabrar knew there was a supernatural faction (from doctor power). Killed N1 by the Guild (other) mafia faction. Why? First possibility is to divert suspicion to jimbob (see read of jimbob above). Second for his scum reads, which were SDK (content), YOLOSWAG (content), LaserGuy (gut meta), jimbob (content), Znirk (lurking, content, and possible scum with LaserGuy). Third (most likely?) killed for meta reasons (someone doesn’t want him in game because he drives content which contributes to scum hunting).

Still confused about this, perhaps you can explain it sometime (can wait until later if it is no longer relevant).
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Also, what is it about SirGabriel's last post that you don't like? I don't see it on first skim through.
Will reveal it in due time, but to give you a hint it is related to the lottery numbers 3,5,12,17,47 and the Public Utility Commission of Texas.


Analysis of live players to follow. But maybe not tonight. I'll try.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Sun May 21, 2017 7:29 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Conclusion is that there must have been something of concern to the supernatural scum team in his reads. Jimbob’s scum reads were DGames Bard (active lurking), Gopher of Pern (content), LaserGuy (content), Sabrar (content), Znirk (content and possible scum with Madge). If his reads were the reason he was killed the most likely candidates are Gopher of Pern and LaserGuy, possibly Madge because Znirk was a likely modkill so if he was scum his alignment would be revealed and lead jimbob to Madge.
We know it can't have been former me. I know it can't be Znirk or leading Znirk's reveal to Madge. If we believe Bard then it can't have been him or LaserGuy either. That would leave Gopher of Pern who wasn't that low on jimbob's list. However if we assume that as always the play revolves around me, me, me then scum might have killed jimbob in order to shift attention to my case on him (and perhaps to a lesser degree on your accusations as well).
The way my brain works best is to start off with all possibilities and eliminate from there. I know that former you didn’t kill jimbobmacdoodle, but working from a list of jimbob’s scum reads former you is an output (that can be eliminated because Regan didn’t have a kill). I don’t know that Znirk/you is town, but my current suspicion on Madge is that if she’s scum she’s a member of the Guild scum team and didn’t kill jimbob anyway. So perhaps I do need to give more weight to the possibility that the play revolves around you you you, as you were definitely the focus of at least one scum team.

Interesting that you didn’t comment on my analysis of who killed Regan.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Sun May 21, 2017 5:20 pm UTC

I’m still trying to put together a reads list. It’s difficult due to low activity, which is normal for weekends.

D2 activity:
Spoiler:
bessie – 5 posts
BoomFrog – 4 posts from a cell phone
DGames | Bard – 5 posts, works on weekends
dimochka – No posts
Gopher of Pern – 2 posts
#HBC | YOLOSWAG – 7 posts, V/LA until Tuesday
kalira – 2 posts, busy this weekend working on a real play
LaserGuy – 3 posts, will be away most of weekend
Madge – 2 posts
plytho – 7 posts, busy weekend
Sabrar – 16 posts, phone posting
SDK – 3 posts, V/LA until Tuesday
SirGabriel – 3 posts

Until we get some more activity, maybe I’ll just spar with Sabrar for a little while.
Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:My claim for bessie as town went down messier than I expected, so I didn't figure either of us would die.
Seriously? bessie is clearly the most townie among all lists.

Not true! bessie’s towniness rankings at the end of D1 (eliminating the poster’s name from their own list):
Spoiler:
bessie – plytho first
BoomFrog – seventh (Sabrar first)
DethStalker – no reads
DGames | Bard – no list
dimochka – second (Sabrar first)
freezeblade/kalira – no list
Gopher of Pern – fourth (Sabrar first)
#HBC | YOLOSWAG – no list
jimbobmacdoodle – second (plytho first)
LaserGuy – third (YOLOSWAG first)
Madge – fourth (Sabrar first)
plytho - first
Sabrar - first
SDK - first
SirGabriel - first
Znirk – no list

Sabrar wrote:I felt no need. I think this is the most likely scenario (mentioned also by you).
Obviously I know it isn't jimbob or Znirk, I believe Bard's confirmation about LaserGuy, that leaves SDK and YOLOSWAG. I kind of want to push the latter today, so that's a possibility but he couldn't have known it D1. I had SDK as indie in my latest list (which was ages ago), don't think I had him as scum D1.
I’m trying to keep my reads of you D1 and D2 separate, because they should be. Do you have any updated reads from your new point of view?

Sabrar wrote:Regarding your 'most likely?' scenario I would hope that isn't the case because that would mean I will be a target in future games as well regardless of alignment.
It’s the price you pay for being the smartest guy in the room. :)

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Mon May 22, 2017 1:03 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:It's incredibly boring when everyone leaves for the weekend, and with me being in a different timezone we'll have precious little time to talk when you return.
Sorry I deserted you Sabrar, and after I invited you to spar too! My husband had a gig and I was going to hide in a corner and post from the bar, but a couple dozen of my friends showed up (how they even knew I was there I don’t know thank you social media) so I has to be friendly and socialize (which is not easy for me but that’s another story). Then the power went off during the second set which meant all the traffic lights went out too and immediately there was a pile up in the intersection in front of the bar so people ran out to try and help because one of the cars was full of kids. Then there was another crash a block away (gotta love southern California car culture). After about 45 minutes without power the band decided to pack up which was too bad because people were still showing up that had heard about him and wanted to see him play (social media again?). Of course it’s earlier than expected so the hottest time of the day and the sound guy passed out while he was loading the equipment into the van. And people couldn’t pay their bar tabs because no power to retrieve them from the system so they just left. Anyway I'm back!

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Sabrar – 16 posts, phone posting
I don't know why that's relevant, but I wasn't. I don't even know what gave you this idea, unless this is another ploy of yours to make me admit that I had made multiple EBWOP's today and you think this is indicative of something.
It’s not relevant and doesn’t mean anything, and well excuse me for thinking that you were posting from your phone I must have mixed you up with someone else. I was just pointing out that weekends are not a good time to judge people for activity, because some are restricted to phone posting or don’t play at all on weekends because they are out having a better time than me. If it had been a weekday I would have requested a modprod on dimochka.

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Not true! bessie’s towniness rankings at the end of D1 (eliminating the poster’s name from their own list):
My Excel-sheet is at work so expect me to refute you around 7am UTC on Monday.
11pm Sunday for me. I shall be waiting.


dimochka, should I vote for you?


Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, I feel you are being very nitpicky about your townieness.
Nope, not my post restriction. Read this post and try again.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Mon May 22, 2017 2:10 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:
bessie wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, I feel you are being very nitpicky about your townieness.
Nope, not my post restriction. Read this post and try again.


Um...I wasn't going for your post restriction? I was commenting on the fact you seem to be picking on very minor details, to the detriment of the game. The fact that you don't have it as a post restriction makes me think less of you.

Because I’m going on about being labeled townie? To someone I’m confirmed town. If that person is also town, he won’t let me be lynched. But I question others' motives. And as to SDK’s claim, I didn’t ask him to claim. He claimed on page one, in his first game post, before I even got home. I was already being labeled town by some prior to making my first almost contentless game post on page two and my second rather sparse game post on page three.

FoS anyone who accepted SDK’s claim without question when I myself had posted no content. You’re following the pack.

FoS anyone who was still willing to use SDK’s claim at least in part to continue to label me townie, while voicing suspicions of SDK alignment. Your reads are inconsistent.

FoS anyone who has been content to rubber stamp me townie based on meta and has not even analyzed my content for scumtells. This is a safe, noncontroversial read and a lazy excuse not to scumhunt.


Interesting how you think that my calling people out for this is detrimental to the game. But at least you aren’t auto slapping the town label on me.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Mon May 22, 2017 5:37 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Aren't you being a tad defensive?
Over what? Being labeled town?

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Do you have any updated reads from your new point of view?
Nope, no player is mentioned by name or otherwise in Znirk's role-pm. I cannot shed any light on his 'content' from D1.
I’ve been thinking about it and I would like to see an updated reads list from you. Your alignment may have changed, and if you’re scum now, it’s too easy to point to your D1 content and say “same as yesterday” which is the content of confirmed town. Your content doesn’t feel the same to me today as it did yesterday, but it may possibly be because your posting restriction changed, and today you’re "annoyed by our unprofessionalism" or something.

BoomFrog, do you still think Madge is town?

Ninja'd by BoomFrog, never mind.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Postby bessie » Mon May 22, 2017 6:44 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:bessie - Acting just as a townie Bessie should. Sorry :p Could you try to find some scum though instead of being bored?
I’m not bored, just waiting for the lurkers. But you're right, we need to get to work and not wait. So. I don’t agree with your D2 town read of Madge. I don’t have a problem with your D1 town read of Madge. When SDK asked me to follow him on Madge here I didn’t. By the way, I agree with this:
BoomFrog wrote:But trust me, Madge was in danger.
SDK and YOLOSWAG were set to drive the wagon
Had I weighed in against dear Madge
She's be the one slain now.

Here’s my read of Madge three posts after SDK’s request and your refusal to follow him:
bessie wrote:Madge as Oswald - Fluff. Her very few reads are borrowed from others. Would be scummier lean, but I also feel she would post more as scum.

I am not a gut instinct player. If you and SDK had made an actual case on Madge earlier instead of SDK just throwing it out there, I may have changed my mind.

Late D1 Madge makes this remark, which I don’t like at all.
Madge wrote:Dethstalker (but I think likely town despite this, if replacements grow on trees I want him replaced)

For reasons already discussed by me here, here, and here. The third link contains a question pertaining to this, for which I am anxiously awaiting a response upon Madge’s return.

As to the remainder of Madge’s D2 content, I think SirGabriel made a very good observation re Madge’s power.
SirGabriel wrote:Madge - Not a lot of content. Says she's fine with lynching DethStalker but would prefer him to be replaced (but, unlike LaserGuy, she does not ask him to ask to be replaced). Claims in her first D2 post that she was roleblocked, and later that she has an ability that can be used multiple times - not clear why she felt the need to claim that, especially since our two dead townies both have only one-shot powers that aren't very powerful. If Madge is town, she may have put a target on her head for no reason. Then again, she may have put a target on her head because she's bulletproof. Still, I'm putting her at slightly scummy.

So in conclusion I’m not sure why you find Madge so townie, maybe it’s gut and that’s why I don’t understand because I don’t do that type of read. If it’s because scum!SDK and scum!YOLOSWAG tried to start a wagon on her, maybe it’s just because she wasn’t on their team, and this doesn’t preclude her from being on a different scum team. So I have Madge as leaning scum until she comes back and posts some townie content.

Ninja'd by Sabrar. Will read later.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Mon May 22, 2017 2:41 pm UTC

LaserGuy, you seem quite confident in your read of me. Confident enough to start a wagon. Perhaps too confident for someone playing his first game as town.
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:Another question for you, LaserGuy: This is your first town game after being scum twice in a row. Are you having difficulties switching gears? Please explain how you're feeling.


I'm finding the game so far to be very mentally taxing. In hindsight, it was probably a mistake for me to attempt to do any roleplaying since it meant I've spent a lot of time and energy on trying to make my posts have the style I wanted, and I think my analysis has suffered as a result. I also feel blind. In my previous games, I knew who my targets were, and who I had to protect. I had assumed scum would be much harder to play than town because you're outnumbered and having to lie or obfuscate all the time, but upon reflection, I think that townies probably have it a lot rougher because you don't know anything, and don't know what you can trust. Townies are trying put a puzzle together, while scum just have to come over and discreetly kick the pieces.
You’ve gained a lot of confidence since D1. What’s happened between then and now? N1?

Re: your analysis of my posts.

LaserGuy wrote:Let's start with the most important questions first: Who are you and what have you done with bessie? Is there a ransom that needs to be paid? Does her family know? Her dog?
:) As much as I liked this, I’m going to have to refute your analysis.

LaserGuy wrote: As I note above, it takes her seven posts before she even attempts any real scumhunting
I take offence to this remark. Post 2 was letting everyone know my RL issues and why it would be a few days before I would be fully joining the game. It’s called courtesy. Post 3 was a pointed accusation to Gopher of Pern for rolefishing. Posts 4-7 were all done Saturday, which took quite an effort; if you read post #7 carefully you will see that I was at Disneyland much of the day and posting when I could. You refer to post #7 as my first attempt at actual scumhunting (interestingly you were one of the scum I hunted), but also refer to my analysis of SDK in post #4. Why do you not consider this scum hunting? Do you believe that to qualify as scum hunting one must reach the conclusion of scum on the player analyzed? Also interesting, in your analysis, often when I push a suspicion on someone (referred to by some as scumhunting) you label the remark “snarky”.

LaserGuy wrote:Post 15: Town-to-scum list. Gut reads with no analysis.
This was explained. The forums were down at the time I had scheduled for my reread, and I wanted to get something up in case they went down again. Others acknowledged the problems with the forums. Like here.
LaserGuy wrote:The day opens and I find myself most pleasantly surprised to be alive. I appreciate sincerely my most gracious retainer vouching on my behalf. My apologies for not returning more promptly at the twilight hours of last day: I had some technical difficulties connecting to the forums, and then retired for the night.


Some other things of note.
LaserGuy wrote:Post 18: In case of death post: No scum reads. Lampshades that she didn't tunnel. Says she'll move me down my list despite being at the bottom already.
DethStalker was at the bottom. And my reasons for moving you down were for not unvoting, which you later explained as the forums were down at the time you set aside to play (see above). Remember?

LaserGuy wrote:Post 6: Claims she isn't as townie as people think. Not much else.
Not true. I claimed (correctly) that I was not at the top of everyone’s town list. Oh I see what happened now, I just reread Sabrar’s remark and see that I interpreted it wrong. Now I understand why he did this odd calculation.

LaserGuy wrote:It's hard to know even where to start with this. If it weren't for SDK throwing you a lifeline in his first post, I daresay you ought to have been lynched last night.
So are you agreeing with me, that SDK’s confirmed town claim on me shouldn’t have been so easily accepted as proof of my towniness?

LaserGuy wrote:From this read, I think bessie is almost certainly scum, and most likely aligned with DethStalker.
Why? Because I tried to help him out? I wasn’t the only one. And this isn’t the only game I have tried to help out a newbie that didn’t understand what they signed up for. Perhaps you need to reread Diablo (other examples can be provided if needed, Wheel of Time 1, Matrix 6 Newbie Redux, etc).

LaserGuy wrote:The bulk of bessie's posts are vacuous, transparently so.
I take offence to this too, but I’ve got to go to work, so maybe later. I would have preferred to make this post after we heard from SDK, but by the time he gets back there will be less than a day before deadline, and there won’t be opportunity for extended discussion with him.

Ninja'd, back later.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Tue May 23, 2017 3:44 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:In that quoted post from Hamlet, what did you mean when you were saying that you couldn't play against your wincon? Why did you choose the soliloquy where Hamlet was contemplating suicide?
Well all right then. I’m really impressed that you know your Hamlet, which is my favorite play. I’m really disappointed that you’re taking away one of the things I was most enjoying about this game. But to paraphrase Boomfrog, it’s time to stop getting distracted and find scum. My post restriction is optional. My vote on Gopher of Pern is not.

Vote: dimochka

Unvote: dimochka

Now dimochka is free to vote for whomever he wants.

LaserGuy wrote:I'm not sure what you're getting at. You didn't know at the time that I wouldn't be around to post.
Look at the timestamps for post 18. You weren’t going to be posting after me.

LaserGuy wrote:Interesting also that despite claiming people shouldn't be evaluating your content based on SDK's claim about you, your instinct was to wait for him to come around and defend you.
Um, do you really think that the reason I want to see SDK’s response to the last three pages of posts that he’s been away for, is that I want him to rescue me?

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Tue May 23, 2017 7:36 am UTC

Reads, alphabetical, incomplete.

BoomFrog as The Fool
He is having trouble getting a solid scum read on anyone, and this is one reason I trust his reads, even if I do not agree with them all. Madge was partially correct with her observation that were I a person that did not take my commitment to the rules I agreed to when I signed up seriously, I might keep you around for my own entertainment regardless of your alignment because I find your posts enjoyable. But I think that even if I believed you to be scum, I would still keep you around a bit longer because you would probably flush out the other scum for us.

DGames | Bard as the Earl of Kent
Claims to have indication in his role pm that LaserGuy is town. Most of his D1 suspicion was focused on Gopher of Pern (continues with this D2). Starts pushing on YOLOSWAG D2 for his reasons for his reads. Bard, most of the lurkers (dimochka, Madge, kalira) have posted, and SDK and YOLOSWAG won’t be back until tomorrow. Please post what reads you have. I am especially interested in your reads because they should be less influenced by the players’ metas than most of us. I like your read of Gopher of Pern and have a town lean on you. But if you were not an experienced player I would be seriously questioning whether or not you were interpreting your role PM correctly re LaserGuy.

dimochka as Cordelia
Agreed D1 with almost all his reads here. Do not disagree with any of this.

Freezeblade/kalira as the Duke of Cornwall
freezeblade - had D1 low content due to RL issues, some setup spec, only player read was noncommittal on SDK.
kalira - made a good analysis post here but is only through D1 and I think some of her reads may change once she gets completely caught up so I will probably need to return to kalira later. Some things of note:
kalira wrote:RE: bessie’s not responding to SDK’s “outing” her as town sooner, she claimed it was because she responds to things as they come to her. I have to imagine in a case where it seems someone has one-sided information about her, that it would be very appealing as something to talk about as soon as possible, so I wonder why she didn’t do so earlier. Then again, I have to ask myself whether scum!bessie would make such a misstep as to ignore an opening to seem more townie by pushing back against SDK.
If you want me to comment on this after you are caught up, let me know.
kalira wrote:LaserGuy, can you explain why you would unvote here? It seemed curious, to use your own turn of phrase. (I don’t particularly care about the mechanics of your vote in this instance; I’m interested in why you would call out a mistake/slip on Znirk’s part and then unvote him, especially when he just voted for you.)
I would like LaserGuy to answer this too.


Gopher of Pern as King Lear
I’m reading through his comments on me, and it’s like reading LaserGuy.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Plytho, do you really think if dethstalker was my scumbuddy I'd defend him like this? I'd be more likely to do something like bessie, try to coach them into better play.
LaserGuy wrote:It's not that you tried to help him out. It's the manner in which you were trying to help him out, as well as the commentary surrounding him.


Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, why do you think that you needed to move laserguys vote from Boomfrog to yourself? Boomfrog was in no danger of lynch. At that stage he had two votes.
LaserGuy wrote:Given that you were reading him as your scummiest read, and were worried enough about scum manipulating the lynch that you moved my vote off of BoomFrog, why didn't you vote?


Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, I feel you are being very nitpicky about your townieness.
LaserGuy wrote:She spends a surprising amount of time making snarky commentary at people as well as lampshading the fact that she's scum hiding under her townie meta.


Gopher of Pern wrote:SDK I'm unsure of, which is relatively normal. His reputation precedes him, which means his outing of bessie doesn't speak to his townieness.
LaserGuy wrote: I don't know where SDK fits in... it's hard to imagine him not also being your scumbuddy, but I guess it's possible that he has a spectacularly odd role that would allow this.


Gopher of Pern wrote:I was commenting on the fact you seem to be picking on very minor details, to the detriment of the game.
LaserGuy wrote:You've had time to do setup speculation, read the entrails of the dead, compose this, complain about how everyone is reading you unfairly as town, and talk about the bar scene.


Gopher of Pern wrote:I've come to a similar conclusion to laserguy. There is definitely something going on with bessie. I would like to hear from SDK re: his almost confirmation of her as town. Bessie is being overly defensive about being called town.
LaserGuy wrote:Given that I'm casing you as scum, I would think that would be obvious. But frankly, I think you're far too concerned with how other people are reading you.


I think that's all of Gopher's comments on me, and LaserGuy has recycled them all in his own reads. Gopher of Pern, your reads seem to have heavily influenced LaserGuy. Why do you think he is following you?


#HBC | YOLOSWAG as the Doctor
Putting off until tomorrow.

LaserGuy as the King of France
What’s your opinion of Gopher of Pern?

Madge as Oswald
See this post. She has made two posts since mine. I’m not seeing any particularly townie content in either of them, but in a way that makes me question my read of her because I feel that scum!Madge would be doing a little better. And Madge, per Game-Specific Rule #12, there are no alignment changing mechanisms. I’ll come back to Madge tomorrow, hopefully she will have time to post some content.

@Madge (off topic)
Spoiler:
Madge wrote:Bessie traffic lights going out arrgh you need some UPSes or something up in there but seriously I had a visceral reaction to that :O
Sorry about that! I was thinking about the game when it happened so I actually thought of you. I know you were working on something with intersections. Anyway I was thinking about this when I was driving to work this morning, how the grid went down and people just ran through dead lights without stopping, when I got on the freeway and it was after rush hour so the lights on the on-ramp were already off. Anyway, it made me wonder if we are conditioning people to drive through traffic lights that are powered off! What do you think? For any spectators that are wondering what we are talking about, Madge has the very interesting job of traffic engineer, and I am totally fascinated by it.


plytho as Goneril
I don’t feel his D2 content has been as townie as his D1 content, but for now I’m putting it down to the absences over the weekend (including his) making D2 difficult to analyze. I will need to think about him a bit, but for I don’t see anything that concerns me.

SDK as Edgar
Tomorrow.

SirGabriel as the Earl of Gloucester
Good analysis post when he finally got to it. I already pointed out that I liked his read on Madge. I’m not seeing the LaserGuy-DethStalker connection, but I think I agree with everything else in his post.

Znirk/Sabrar as a Servant
Znirk - didn’t have enough D1 content to get a real read, I just had a slightly scummy lean because his analysis was more focused on trying to figure out setup than scum.
Sabrar - I already mentioned here his D2 content doesn’t feel the same to me as his D1 content but there could be reasons. I probably need to come back to him tomorrow. He’s not someone I would lynch anyway unless I was pretty certain of his scumminess for similar reasons to those I gave for BoomFrog. He drives a lot of content as town or scum (but not as much today as I would have expected, which actually makes me wonder if he is scum that hasn’t has chat yet because he replaced).


Ninja'd by lots and lots because this took a while. Will read after posting.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Tue May 23, 2017 9:08 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:plytho as Goneril
I don’t feel his D2 content has been as townie as his D1 content, but for now I’m putting it down to the absences over the weekend (including his) making D2 difficult to analyze. I will need to think about him a bit, but for I don’t see anything that concerns me.
Why is the absence of many players a factor in your read on plytho but not mentioned with regards to me, me, me?

1. Well, plytho was one of the absences, you weren’t. plytho said he would be busy over the weekend and following on his phone, and I took that to imply his intention was to read to keep up, and that he wouldn’t be doing any heavy thinking about it. You were actively participating, even though you were separated from your spreadsheet. (I just checked and he did make quick one post.)

2. You have more experience. This is his third game. So with only half the data (players) to work with he wouldn’t have as much experience filling in the gaps, so I cut him some slack there.

3. I did not take in to account that your two main scum reads were unavailable for you to grill. This was my oversight because you did say you wanted to push YOLOSWAG today.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 am UTC

Vote dimochka

Well I'm not sure if this will work then because deadline is in 14ish hours unless we get an extension, and I intend to move this vote.

Back later.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Wed May 24, 2017 3:20 am UTC

dimochka, I’ll leave that vote there for a little while to make sure, and unvote tomorrow morning. If we get an extension, I’ll unvote tomorrow morning anyway, but I’ll wait until 24 hrs before deadline.

Let’s see, where to start? Anyone talk about me me me today? :)

LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:
kalira wrote:LaserGuy, can you explain why you would unvote here? It seemed curious, to use your own turn of phrase. (I don’t particularly care about the mechanics of your vote in this instance; I’m interested in why you would call out a mistake/slip on Znirk’s part and then unvote him, especially when he just voted for you.)


I would like LaserGuy to answer this too.


I was voting SDK at the time, IIRC. Znirk voted for me, which automatically moved my vote from SDK to Znirk. I didn't really want to vote Znirk, so I unvoted him when I had the opportunity.
Why “Unvote Znirk” at all? Why not just “unvote”? Or vote for someone else? Were you trying to communicate your voting power to someone?

LaserGuy wrote: In that quoted post from Hamlet, what did you mean when you were saying that you couldn't play against your wincon? Why did you choose the soliloquy where Hamlet was contemplating suicide?
Role playing fun which fulfills my post restriction (quite well in this case). But don’t worry, I’m over it. Happy?

LaserGuy wrote: And? Why does Town!bessie care about whether or not you're at the top of everyone's list? How does this entire tangent help town? If people are correctly reading you as town, that's a good thing, and not something you should be worried about.
I think you have that backwards. Scum!Bessie would be very happy to sit back and let everyone rubber stamp her townie and put her at the top of their town lists based on meta and an unquestioned claim. Town!Bessie should be quite suspicious of some people's motivations.

LaserGuy wrote: Given that you were reading him as your scummiest read, and were worried enough about scum manipulating the lynch that you moved my vote off of BoomFrog, why didn't you vote?
Reasons. And since you will label them wine anyway, I’ll save you the time and skip this one.

LaserGuy wrote:
bessie wrote:Um, do you really think that the reason I want to see SDK’s response to the last three pages of posts that he’s been away for, is that I want him to rescue me?

Why was your preference to wait until he returned before replying to me then?
I’m going to be generous and chalk this question up to overeager newbie town, and I’ll explain because why not. SDK in his opening post claimed this:
SDK wrote:Are you asking this because bessie is town? Because she is. Good to know that someone else got that confirmation in their role PM too.
He could have later claimed that this was one of his antics, but he didn’t. He doubled down.
SDK wrote:The proof of bessie's innocence lies in my role PM, though I will give no further details on that for the moment.

Now, his motivations have been analyzed to death, including by me here . What it boils down to is that this was a pretty unambiguous statement, he didn’t leave himself a lot of freedom to change it later. If SDK is town, he needs to stand by this claim. He can’t let me be lynched, and he has really painted himself into a corner if he is scum.

Maybe he realized this, because he tested the waters a little here.
SDK wrote:I will say this, if it puts your mind at ease: My role PM does not explicitly state that bessie is town. My role interacts with bessie in a way that points to her being town as very likely.

If SDK is scum, D1 is no problem for him, bessie is predictably the towniest person in the game, as carefully calculated by Sabrar here . But D2 bessie’s towniness is called into question, and her ranking begins to slip (if you’re interested I’m sure Sabrar can work out my new score). I’m quite curious as to what SDK will say to this. As shown, he can’t really back off. He needs to stick by his claim or he risks looking scummy. Because of Game specific Rule #12.
There are no alignment-changing mechanisms

I really wanted SDK to post, and I didn’t want to explain this to you, but it probably doesn’t matter anyway. Scum!SDK is not going to make a stupid obvious mistake.

Oh, by the way, I beileve you have some pending questions too.
bessie wrote: You refer to post #7 as my first attempt at actual scumhunting (interestingly you were one of the scum I hunted), but also refer to my analysis of SDK in post #4. Why do you not consider this scum hunting? Do you believe that to qualify as scum hunting one must reach the conclusion of scum on the player analyzed?


Ninja'd back soon.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Wed May 24, 2017 4:16 pm UTC

unvote

LaserGuy’s case on me:
LaserGuy wrote: I would summarize my case essentially as the following:

She is spending a surprising amount of time focused on subjects that are not really advancing the interests of town. This includes an extended discussion of her own meta, numerous tangents of irrelevant personal information, wine-soaked night kill analysis, to name a few. Her post content is much higher than normal, but the quality of posting is considerably less than usual. Notably, the amount of actual scumhunting and player analysis that she's doing is fairly minimal. Essentially, I feel she's active lurking, which is extremely uncharacteristic.

You accuse me of spending a surprising amount of time focused on subjects that are not really advancing the interests of town, and then you post the following?
LaserGuy wrote:Her posts to and about DethStalker read very much like a frustrated teammate trying to help a useless, intractable team member. She spends more time talking to and about him than just about anyone else. A quick summary of her interactions with him:
-Welcome post, notes his postcount is still 1 and instructs him how to remove posting restrictions. DethStalker hadn't put in a confirmation post yet, so bessie had to go to a different thread to check his postcount to get this information. This is apparently a higher-priority task than commenting on SDK "outing" her as town.
-Expresses further concerns that he isn't set up properly in the forums, DethStalker a liability.
-Confused by his opening posts. "[D]one with you."
-A few hours later prods him to reply to jimbob.
-Tells him not to roleplay and to answer questions
-DethStalker newbie scum. Fine with lynching him.
-Final parting words to him. Missed this one earlier. MacBeth gives this speech in response to hearing about the suicide of his wife and co-conspirator. Another interesting choice.

Note: plytho is correct here. I don’t want to get in to this too much but I really think I need to say something because you are the one focusing on subjects that are not really advancing the interests of town at this point. Trying to help out newbies is entirely within my meta, and if I am alive N2 I will dig up links to old games and to the Gojoe thread to illustrate this point and post them on D3. If I have several extra hours I can probably dig up stuff in the discussion thread where we as a group talk about how we can draw new players. And I felt somewhat responsible this one, not because we were on a scum team together, but because I’m the one who asked mpolo in the Gojoe thread if this game was going to be newbie friendly, and because of my request he added newbie friendly to the sign up sheet. IIRC, I did the same thing after WoT2 with Diablo, posted in Gojoe inviting newbies to join us. And we got two spectacular new players in that game (and a third player that put us in a situation similar to what DethStalker did). I meant this to be quick but already spent too much time on this so whatever, done, OK you think I’m scummy for it. And I see what you did here:

Nice. Just like this one:
LaserGuy wrote: Of course. Your skills are peerless. I am afraid I have never had the opportunity to see you perform as a villain, so I am most looking forward to your performance in such a dastardly role.

Interesting how you signaled your intentions so early D2. Especially since the posts that supposedly pinged you as to my scumminess were not made until after you made the post above, as you claimed here.
LaserGuy wrote: Your last two or three posts pinged me so much I decided that I absolutely must start my reread with you and then, well things sort of spiraled out of control.

One more comment about the time wasting I am allegedly doing. This is role playing/post restriction. I told you I’m over it. Or are you trying to distract me into a discussion of Macbeth so I waste my time not scum hunting? Ok, Macbeth Act V Scene 5 for those that wish to follow along. What does the imagery of this passage tell us about Macbeth’s mental state? Do you believe Macbeth feels any remorse for his wife’s death? What does this tell us about Macbeth’s philosophy of life and death?

Ok, there went an hour. I guess I am wasting time.

More tonight, but it probably won’t be until very late, as I will be busy. I’d tell you about it, but I’m getting kind of sick of being accused of active lurking whenever I post anything that’s not indisputably 100% game related, especially when those accusations don’t seem to fly at anyone else in this game.

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Thu May 25, 2017 7:50 am UTC

@Madge, plytho (off topic)
Spoiler:
Madge I have a question for you about traffic lights but I don’t want to take up any time typing it out or take your time answering with deadline so close. If I die I’ll pm it to you or if plytho is interested in hearing it we’ll include him or move it to the Gojoe thread which we should probably just do anyway.

SDK wrote:
bessie wrote:
SDK wrote:Are you asking this because bessie is town? Because she is. Good to know that someone else got that confirmation in their role PM too.
He could have later claimed that this was one of his antics, but he didn’t. He doubled down.

Did you intentionally wait to comment on it until after I had doubled down? Why?
Why does this keep coming up? I already explained this here. Summary, all times are bessie (PDT) time:

5/11 Thursday, game starts earlier than I expected. Made courtesy post explaining I worked an 11 hour day and was on the way to the airport to pick up my mother-in-law. I was busy. I was tired. I was getting up at 5:30 am the next day.
5/12 Friday, worked another 11 hour day, reading to catch up, told DethStalker about the 5 posts, greeted Bard, addressed my vote on Gopher of Pern and accused him of role fishing, topics I could tackle quickly. I didn’t have a lot of time because guest wanted to go out to dinner. Put off addressing SDK’s claim because it would take a bit longer, but no worries, there would be plenty of time after dinner. Went out, drank too much, fell asleep. Sorry I thought I would be back but I wasn’t.
5/13 Saturday, first thing in the morning 8:00am, addressed SDK’s claim. Second post replied to Sabrar, thoughts on DethStalker. Went out, morning appointment. Came home. Made a few quick comments. Had to leave because taking house guest to Disneyland. Came home and after midnight made very long post and totally caught up on the entire thread.

So can we please put to rest this accusation that I was avoiding addressing SDK’s claim? I got to it in my fourth post, and my first comprehensive game post.

SDK wrote:Bessie, do you think LaserGuy is scum?
Yes.

kalira wrote:BoomFrog mentions that (Znirk and) Dethstalker should be the mod’s business, and that they should be replaced. Znirk was definitely in the lurker category, but BF should well know that a mod is not going to replace a player who is participating -- caveats probably always apply, but pretty much, if they’re playing, whether good, bad, or indifferent, no replacement. Hell, we’ve even had at least one game where a player was participating one Day only in that he talked to the mod through PM to say he was still around and posted pretty much nothing in thread, and he wasn’t modkilled (I can’t remember who or which game, but it sticks in my memory).
I want to say that was Djehytynakht but I can’t remember which game (Secret Santa 2015?). Maybe Deva will see this and put it in the Gojoe thread for us later. And yes, I agree, there was no justification for mpolo to replace DethStalker (I had been trying to dispute Madge on this here and here but we’re past that now).

town
bessie
SirGabriel
dimochka
BoomFrog
SDK
plytho
Sabrar
kalira
Madge
#HBC | YOLOSWAG
Gopher of Pern
DGames | Bard
LaserGuy
Scum

Ninja'd by Sabrar and LaserGuy. Why is it important that everyone be on one of the two wagons?

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bessie
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Postby bessie » Thu May 25, 2017 4:55 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:If we lynch bessie, and she is scum, we have another scum ready to lynch. If she is town, it's just a mislynch, but says nothing to SDK, so if he is town, he might still be alive to help us.

Gee thanks for the vote of confidence.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Re: vote manipulation. Yes, I wanted to know what votes were on. I changed my mind, and didn't explain myself well. I was talking about obvious ones, like dethstalkers, bessie's, laserguys and dimochka's; vote manipulations that don't hurt town. Really, whats the difference between knowing what they are now, to knowing what they were then? It would have got that discussion out of the way early. Plus, I wanted to see people's reasons for wanting / not wanting to know people's vote powers. I was also under the mistaken assumption of everyone having powers. Thank you for making me point that out, by the way.

It’s been pointed out before. Here.
Sabrar wrote:Based on how the mod described the setup I would assume that everyone has a posting restriction and a vote-related ability/restriction. Some might not be as obvious as others.
Plytho contradicts him in the next post.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Bessie, your scummy reads seem to be a bit OMGUS. Do you actually believe myself and laserguy to be scummy? Why?

Here's why I think LaserGuy is scum. Because it seems to me like he is trying to act townie. I’ve been thinking about something that Boomfrog said in the last game about newbie scum having trouble acting townie because they lack experience. If LaserGuy is scum, he’s never been town. And in this game he doesn’t have SDK to coach him in day chat. What first gave me the real feeling that LaserGuy was trying to act townie was when I was doing my read of Gopher of Pern and I sorted his posts and extracted all the comments about me. Lined up like that, they read like LaserGuy’s bessie is scum and bessie is scum V2 posts. Gopher of Pern was the player that had the most suspicion on me, it seemed like LaserGuy took all his reads on me and used them to make his own read.

This next bit will probably be used against me as a sure scum tell, but what the heck, I can be night killed so I need to get all my thoughts out there. I think that LaserGuy is trying to act like me. Everyone knows I have a townie meta. This part is not wine. It’s been going on for so long that it’s turned into a joke. I went on about it here a year and a half ago. (Note: Found this. Here’s a post from that game where I tried to help out a newbie.) I’m notorious for tunneling. Always have been. No link this time, read any game. Anyway, what he’s doing to me this game is a lot like what I did to Carlington in Diablo. I hammered on him mercilessly. I made lists of his post times and the gaps. I analyzed every word he said. Even LaserGuy commented on it in that game. There’s also the odd thing that he is finding scum tells that he applies only to me.
LaserGuy wrote: You've had time to do setup speculation
I’m not the only one to do setup speculation on D2.
LaserGuy wrote: read the entrails of the dead
So are dimochka and kalira scum for this too?
LaserGuy wrote:compose this,
That wasn’t even that good and mostly copied, so surely BoomFrog is scummier because his was all original.
LaserGuy wrote: complain about how everyone is reading you unfairly as town
Ok score one for you.
LaserGuy wrote: and talk about the bar scene
Hmm, who else has made friendly RL banter? Madge, plytho, SDK, hell Bard even told us what he had for dinner one night.
LaserGuy wrote: Instead of doing player analysis, you settled on a lot of active lurking.
I’m being accused of active lurking by a guy that demands I comment on my mental state on May 14 and May 20?

I think that LaserGuy’s trying to copy my townie tunneling aspect, and he’s playing the part of a townie using a townie as a model and he didn’t realize he was taking it too far until the last post linked above, when he backed off. Ok, yes, I must be wrong because I think everything is all about me me me. Flame away.

I won’t be here at deadline. Sabrar, sometimes you can still analyze a vote that’s not on a wagon.

Vote: LaserGuy

Ninja'd by LaserGuy, sorry for moving your vote.

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bessie
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

Postby bessie » Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:07 pm UTC

Thank you mpolo this game will be one of my favorites.

Congratulations phantoms and survivor, I think scum would have won this game even if kalira had been town instead of survivor. I’ve already left most of my thoughts re their brilliant play in the Gojoe thread as the game progressed (missed D5 sorry).

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:YOLO for MVP.

Good game all. I think letting people who have been nightkilled replace back into the game is against the spirit of the game though, despite it being common practice.
YOLOSWAG, I don’t think anyone likes zombie replacements, but unfortunately real life happens and often we don’t have enough replacements as we have so few games the regular players sign up for every game. Madge and kalira usually volunteer as replacements instead of signing up (and I’ve done this too when I’ve seen a new name on the signup list). It was just unfortunate that we needed two on D1 (and we really needed three). And others too have previously complained that they’ve NKed a player to remove them from the game and were annoyed to see the dead player return as a replacement.
bessie wrote:
Sabrar wrote:EBWOP: got it. It was to create wine and lead Town towards jimbob. Yep, knew I shouldn't have posted that last bit on instinct.
Maybe Regan was killed because your reads were good. Hmm, I’m a bit amused that someone wanted Sabrar out of the game, and now he’s back. Someone out there must be quite annoyed.
I’m laughing a little thinking about how different this game would have been if Sabrar replaced DethStalker instead of Znirk. :)


Sabrar wrote:4-3-1 without Doc and the only protection in the hands of Survivor is not MYPLO. It is not MYLO and it is not LYLO. It's an automatic loss for Town, even with the voting mechanics. With no Vig Survivor should in all cases simply join scum for immediate win. Even with the possibility of Town managing to lynch scum because of my charismatic trait next day would have been 3-2-1 with me dead because of NK and then it's the same situation.
Now I get that Survivor might not want to claim but scum has the numbers to make it work (just like it should have worked in Diablo), especially with Survivor notifying scum that she wants to side with them. I think that declaring MYPLO was very misleading, though it didn't matter in the end.
I don’t agree that this was an automatic loss for town. And in fact it wasn’t. The game went for one more day. For this to be an automatic town loss requires certain choices to be made by everyone (scum, town, and survivor). And those choices may be logical and optimal, but they’re still choices. You bring up the Diablo game, and I think that somewhere jimbob said that his choice would be to help town win if possible (I could be remembering this wrong, I didn’t search the game or Gojoe for the quote). And maybe everyone doesn’t agree on the “best” choice. I thought that the best play for LaserGuy was to yolo it and claim scum and force a NL on D4, but he presented his view on why he didn’t think that would work. I know we argued about this (what is the "right" gameplay) in Diablo too but I didn’t have an opportunity to reread our discussion (bessie had a crap week, see below). I like you Sabrar and I very much enjoy my discussions with you. I would be happy to discuss game mechanics or anything mafia related with you any time. I don’t want you to think that I am arguing with you just to be confrontational. I’ll be around if you want to pick this up.

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: I explicitly mentioned that you were killed because your scum-reads. Too bad it included GoP. :)
My complaint preceded your post by a week, look at the time stamps! And I knew you would figure it out. Here too. :D

Bard, this forum as eaten so many of my posts too! I usually prepare all my posts in a word document because of this. I hope you get motivated enough to reconstruct that post because I would be interested in reading it. Sorry the game was rough for your team, I’ve said before in a previous game that I don’t like lovers and don’t think it is a very fun game mechanic (and I wasn’t very happy about having my death tied to SDK’s win condition either!). Please come back and play with us again someday!


@Madge, traffic lights and RL
Spoiler:
Interesting, the role of traffic lights in my life this past month, when we had been discussing it here. My husband was stopped at a red light a few days ago; a perfectly functioning traffic light, clear weather, mid afternoon, etc. Someone hit him hard enough to completely turn his car around and send him into another lane and another car, and then the guy kept going through the red light, into the intersection, and proceeded to hit two more cars. So I guess sometimes it doesn’t matter if the traffic lights work and your intersection is optimally set up and visibility is good and the stars are aligned, because there are people out there that just suck and you can’t fix suck with a backup power supply.

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bessie
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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

Postby bessie » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:37 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:PS: I hope you appreciate my effort in going in so much detail, it took me around a minute to go through the scenarios in my head and more than an hour to type it all out. :)
I read everything you post, and appreciate all your efforts. Here’s some rambling thoughts with no real conclusion, mostly redundant, but I wrote it out for you anyway.
Spoiler:
Note that any of these possibilities require full truthful alignment claims by everyone, and they all need to trust these claims, which is not a 100% certain.
Sabrar wrote:1. In a vanilla or mostly vanilla game where no relevant night-actions remain an {X}-{X-1}-1 setup allows scum to blackmail Survivor to help them (same "help us for an automatic win or we'll NK you" tactic that was tried in Diablo). Unless Survivor plays against their win-condition (which is forbidden by the rules) they simply must accept the proposition and with that scum achieved parity and has won the game.
But would survivor really be forced to side with scum (to avoid playing against their win condition)?

If 4-3-1, survivor forces NL, scum kills town, so next day is 3-3-1, survivor must still side with scum. This would be optimal play for survivor, if they trust scum to fulfill their end of the deal.

If 4-3-1 and survivor sides with town to lynch scum, night is 4-2-1, and scum can’t afford to NK survivor, because you can argue that scum would be playing against their win condition. So next day is 3-2-1, survivor sides with town again, night is 3-1-1, day is 2-1-1, town/survivor win. This is similar to what happened in Diablo. Some reasons why this scenario may happen is that players may have an affinity to help town over scum for reasons (creating a situation with more winners, the feeling that you’re helping the “good guys”, personal interactions between players that shouldn’t affect gameplay but do because we’re all human, etc. ). Also, what I really thought was interesting about Diablo, is that jimbob thought that he might have a secondary win condition that would require me to be alive at endgame. That possibility helped a little in keeping the game interesting in the end, without that it probably would have turned into all game mechanics and just processing the votes earlier than it did. If I ever run a game I would like to try out something like bonus win conditions.

Sabrar wrote:- unless Town started with only 8 members (basically impossible, although I would have said the same about 9 as well), rest of the players must be townies due to math, so not lying about roles.
I think this is an area where you and I often disagree. Not everyone agrees on what is a logical or sensible or fair or even fun setup. But I don't want you to think I am trying to argue with you over this, and I certainly don't claim to be experienced at game balance.

Sabrar wrote:Last point is the one raised by LaserGuy, scum's own disadvantages when it comes to voting.
- plytho's restriction is not a problem, scum doesn't need to change targets.
- dimochka's problem is not an issue. LaserGuy can reveal the info after the last 24 hours began and dimochka unvoted. D5 with 3-3-1 is a bit tricky but can be solved with co-ordination:
1. kalira is told to vote for any townie (say me). After this happens the following votes need to be cast within seconds of each other (agreed in chat N4):
2. LaserGuy votes dimochka
3. dimochka and plytho vote for me
4. LaserGuy hammers me.
All restrictions are in order, Town does not have the numbers to intervene, forum even has the tool for hiding your online status so we cannot anticipate when this would occur.

- now let's consider LaserGuy's situation. Scum wants to orchestrate a 4-4 tie in votals. So all 3 scum plus kalira all vote for a specific player (say me again). All 4 townies vote for plytho for example. The issue here is that a townie (e.g. SirGabriel) might vote for LaserGuy and then revote plytho 30 seconds later (forum prevents multiple posts in quick successions). This should give LaserGuy plenty of time to revote (although admittedly he really needs to camp the thread here). In this hypothetical scenario I would have inquired from mpolo in advance on how he would resolve this situation where mechanical play would guarantee a tie and only timing issues could cause a problem. My solution as a mod would have been probably to declare a hard deadline in which case LaserGuy can simply revote in the last 10 seconds to avoid this situation. However assuming any solution from an impartial mod I believe that town should not have had the chance to lynch scum. We can go into more detail here if you want (especially as this was LaserGuy's main reason for not pushing this line) but this is already too long.
Thoughts - scum didn’t need to hammer or vote NL, they only needed to tie the votals at the end of the day to force NL. So at 4-3-1, working it out:
-Town votes LaserGuy (most likely lynch target), scum votes any townie or NL. Result is NL.
-Town votes plytho (or dimochka); scum votes SirGabriel (just picked a townie with no voting power to use as an example). Sabrar, Madge, or Gopher of Pern can manipulate LaserGuy’s vote. Agree with Sabrar that I would have requested some mod ruling on this before deadline, because brute force is not strategy and shouldn’t decide the game. A hard deadline may have been a reasonable solution.
-Best case for town, they would have locked plytho’s vote to Sabrar. Sabrar (4), LaserGuy (4), LaserGuy is lynched.
-Best case for scum, they would have hammered Sabrar. N4 is 3-3-1, kalira’s cooperation is unnecessary so automatic scum win.
-Sub-optimal case for scum, hammer GoP, N4 is 3-3-1, kill SirG, D5 is 2-3-1, kalira switches sides, scum votes Sabrar, town votes LaserGuy, LaserGuy is lynched, N5 is 2-2-1 with a possible bulletproof townie. Town can win.

@Bard, thanks for posting your analysis! The Gojoe thread is the thing that drew me to this forum. I followed games for at least six months before I signed up for one. We occasionally have a player read a spoiler by accident and they request replacement, and cheating is very rare (I hope). That thread has inadvertently saved me so many times when I’ve been lost and sure I was about to blow the game, then I see a burst of activity in the Gojoe thread and even though I can’t read it, I think well, the spectators are talking so the answer must be there somewhere, one more read through and maybe I’ll see it.
DGames | Bard wrote:Day 3 comes around, and I realize that Bessie, the fantastic golden retriever of xkcd mafia lore, had fallen to the darkest of depths via the hands of the phantoms, which was of course the proverbial straw that broke the Bard camel's back. Motivation being at an all time low, I ended up claiming, very lazily defended myself, and then called Sabrar "Scooby Doo," which I surmise was what ultimately got me lynched. I don't think he took very kindly to being referred to as Scooby Doo, but I could just be putting words in his mouth (as opposed to Scooby snacks, which I'm sure he would much rather appreciate ;3).
:D If I was around D3 I was going into super-tunnel mode on LaserGuy, so I’m afraid I would have caused your death anyway. Maybe next time we will be on the same team. Woof!

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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

Postby bessie » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:43 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:If night begins at 3-1-1 and 2-1-1 means a town/survivor win anyway, then what's stopping scum from killing Survivor? It isn't playing against their win-con at that moment as they are already guaranteed to lose. That makes it impossible for Survivor to side with Town. The only way for scum to win at that point would be Survivor having a change of heart and siding with them at 2-1-1 and at 1-1-1 as well but I see no reason why Survivor would ever play that way.

We’ve been having this same disagreement since Wheel of Time 1. You determine what you believe is the most logical correct decision for a player based on what you believe is the way the mod set up the game because it is the most logical correct setup. Then you don’t understand why anyone, player or mod, would/could make any choices other than what you decided was optimal. Please read the rest of my post. Sometimes people make illogical decisions, and sometimes they just make mistakes. I know I do.


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