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Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:13 pm UTC

Feels bad man.

I will take this noose with honor, however. Kind of sad you guys are lynching me, I thought I was obviously Town this game, but guess not. Feel like Town's getting rolled again. I can't believe some of the posts that have actually been made today and excused.

Post almost done, avenge me.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 6:56 pm UTC
Deadline's soon, so's my post. Cleaning something up first.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 7:00 pm UTC
Attention scumbags everywhere.

I want scum to win this game. I've been lynched for YOLO'ing once again, but I hope to assist all scum with my final will. What I'm trying to tell you is that if my team doesn't pull this out (though I think we have a good chance with how things are going), that I want you to win. Check my last game Dark Tower where I helped the scumteam the entire time (They never even thanked me. How rude. I consider it a win in spirit.) like I did here. I always side with scum anytime I roll non-Town; I'm being sincere here and you can trust me.

I have a traitor in the thread. My team also still has a strongman and is looking damn good. Other team, I'm going to suggest the following pools for each of us to minimize the amount of crosskills.

I propose my team kills from SDK, kalira, SirG, Bard, Madge, and BoomFrog.

I propose the other team kills from Sabrar, GoP, plytho, bessie, dimochka, and Laserguy.

This is MORE than enough wiggle room in each pool to keep other scum around so we can all collaborate to kill as many innocents as we possibly can.

I highly encourage all the scum and non-Town in this game to unite against the Town and kill them. So 3rd parties, please stop aligning with Town all the time and join the dark side. This game is more than winnable, just look at my lynch today despite the blatant scumposts that were made left, right, and up and down the thread this day phase.3rd parties, please help us out and stop just helping Town all the time. It's much more entertaining and hilarious to kill innocents.

Remember that I HAVEN'T claimed which team I'm on in this post, so edit your reaction to this post accordingly and make not sure not to slip. I waited 'til the end of the Day to minimize the amount of immediate reactions, but I'm hoping this can help you guys out D3 onwards.

I'm 3/4 on this site now. Do I have Carlington beat? What's troublesome though is that I think I'm going to get scumread when I finally roll Town.

Scum for life. Born a scum, die a scum.


Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:49 pm UTC

Good game all. I think letting people who have been nightkilled replace back into the game is against the spirit of the game though, despite it being common practice.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Curtain Call

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:54 pm UTC
kalira wrote:I yolo'd (not reference to the player) a decent number of times in this game, and it ended up paying off, but I don't think I'll do it again. So nerve-wracking.
It's a way of life.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III (pregame)

Posted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:20 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:20 am UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
My apologies dear friends for my initial absence. I was backstage with one of our dear prop assistants, ahh... comforting... her, shall we say?

A supernatural terror appearath in our midst, I hear? Mayhap it is alone, though the presence of others less noble than ourselves also would be of no surprise to this player.

The fearful side of me doth wonder if the following action will be safe, but my curiosity exceedeth this:

Vote DethStalker

I alas am somewhat preoccupied with other matters for a short while, so this dear troop must wait for more speech from yours truly.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:34 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Ok, so there are now two votes on DethStalker, including my own. I am going to guess at one of the following, since my guesses in the last game were apparently pretty accurate.
1) Somebody has a secret vote power, that is somehow compulsive.
2) DethStalker always appears to have an additional vote on himself. This may or may not actually count.
3) The vote by bessie is in fact targeting DethStalker, and the vote on Gopher is a phony.
4) My vote on DethStalker is actually two votes for some reason, probably related to a passive ability from DethStalker.
5) Probably something else entirely.

@DethStalker, would you care to comment on the voting situation with regards to the apparent additional vote on yourself?

I don't think at this point I'm going to get any further with this... Let's try this:

Vote Gopher of Pern

An interesting point to note is that mpolo explicitly said in this post that there were 9 people not voting, when there were apparently 7 votes + the "nobody" on DethStalker down. I don't know quite what to make here. One thing I will say is that I may be suspicious of anybody who is not voting for SOMEBODY at day end, as it would be good to help clarify certain vote shenanigans, though I guess town!double voters etc might not want to reveal their hand this early. I definitely don't believe that a general claim/demonstration of all vote-manipulating abilities at this stage is worthwhile.

I'm not likely going to be doing much role-playing this game FYI, but I may occasionally turn out a bit of flowery speech.

SDK's confirmation of bessie this early on strikes me as odd. It may of course be a complete fabrication, and I can't help but feel slightly suspicious. Initially I wondered if he was in fact a lyncher for bessie (or her character). mpolo had lynchers in the last Shakespeare game, where there were hidden characters, who won as long as their target died before them (actually, we joined town and had to win with them to be precise). SDK would claim to know that bessie is town, in the hope that scum might bump her off for him with no effort. However, in this game, the characters are all known, which would make a lyncher's job seem quite easy, so I'm suspecting that there might not be any. Given Shakespeare II though, I fully expect there to be rather a lot of other indies (there were 8 players, of whom 4 started out as indies, although the two lynchers became town once the other died). Four or more would be entirely within the boundaries of possibility, though if there are two scum factions (as opposed to SK + scum), I expect there'll be fewer indies to balance things out a little.

@bessie, what dost thou sayest about this matter that SDK hath portrayed thee as town for certain?

I find it interesting that people have immediately jumped to two scum teams instead of the more traditional (around these parts) SK + scum team. I'd like explanations on why people think this, from LaserGuy, Gopher of Pern, Yoloswag, and anybody else who believes there to be two scum teams. If there are two anti-town factions (where faction is a co-aligned set of players with two or more to their number), there is no reason to assume that they both simply want to eliminate all opposition (e.g. Smalltown 2 had a faction that needed to survive to D6 to win). We cannot even assume that they are of the same size. I wouldn't be entirely surprised by two factions myself, but if there are I doubt they'll be mirrors of each other.

LaserGuy wrote:Firstly, I see that two votes were cast at days beginning. One from bessie on Gopher, the other unknown to Dethstalker. Surely this deserves some comment for it suggests some nefarious forces at work.
You say that this deserves some comment, yet you have made none on it yourself beyond this comment. Why is that?

BoomFrog, if this is going to be a repeat of your D1 shenanigans from Dark Tower, I'm going to be calling you out on it.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:14 am UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
I completely agree that not all my suggestions are all that likely, but I'm surprised to see how quickly people are completely ruling things out and find it interesting that I'm apparently judged to be suspicious for even suggesting one or two of them. In particular, whilst I think 1 or 2 are the most likely (probably 2), I could see bessie's power being something like, "you must always have a vote on somebody, but it shows up as being on somebody else" (hence 3), or DethStalker always appears to have a vote on them, if they have none, while my ability is a double-vote under certain circumstances (note - I'm not claiming this, but it's possible from everybody else's point of view).
BoomFrog wrote:Far too concerned with nothings.
Why do you dismiss my topics of focus as "nothings" at this point?
LaserGuy wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:SDK's confirmation of bessie this early on strikes me as odd. It may of course be a complete fabrication, and I can't help but feel slightly suspicious. Initially I wondered if he was in fact a lyncher for bessie (or her character). mpolo had lynchers in the last Shakespeare game, where there were hidden characters, who won as long as their target died before them (actually, we joined town and had to win with them to be precise). SDK would claim to know that bessie is town, in the hope that scum might bump her off for him with no effort.
I don't follow this line of reasoning. Surely the worst thing for a canonical lyncher would be an explicit townie read on their target. How would they then lynch them? Such a move would make their target more difficult to lynch and more easy to be killed by mafia, a dreadful result for the lyncher.
A confirmed townie is one of the most likely players to get killed by a night kill, and that would fulfil the lyncher win condition from the last Shakespeare game. Lyncher!SDK might believe that it is going to be almost impossible to get a lynch on bessie (what with her having a really townie meta), so is hoping scum will do his work for them.
LaserGuy wrote:The opening flavor is suggestive of two kills, and four or five more experienced people seemed to accept this as the likely scenario. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Do you have reason to believe otherwise?
No comment at this point and your question struck me as role-fishing. My question wasn't about why you thought two scum teams were likely, it was about why they were likelier than SK/scum.
Gopher of Pern wrote:Also interesting to note, jimbob mentioned that mpolo explicitly said 9 people not voting, but mpolo didn't mention how many not voting in the latest votals. I'm not sure what to make of that.
I noted that as well, although thinking about this more makes me realise that a secret-voting player would show up as not voting, so it doesn't really imply anything, unless mpolo never lists the names of the players not voting (if he did it would be obvious who the secret voter is).

mpolo, can you confirm the number of players not voting in the next votals, please.

Detailed reads will follow tomorrow.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:16 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:On a related note: I'll be heartily considering to lynch DethStalker on D2 for balance reasons if daystart votals will once more contain an additional vote on him, as he's a complete liability in LYLO situations if Town, therefore I do not think that is the case. OTOH don't think that scum would be outed so easily as well, so thoughts welcome on this matter.
Wait, are you seriously suggesting that we lynch somebody just because they might have an extra vote on them that might cause us problems in a potential LYLO situation? If DethStalker is scum, this actually works in towns favour. In other words, we shouldn't lynch DethStalker just because they might have an additional vote. We should lynch them because they are scummy. FoS Sabrar for apparently not caring about the alignment of a player. I could see this ability being given to town, scum, or even some indies.

I'll come back to the vote shenanigans bit later.

Also, what is it about SirGabriel's last post that you don't like? I don't see it on first skim through.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:50 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:Seems like the esteemed gentleman with the many names has not learned to interpret my carefully chosen words in their entirety, rather has taken lessons in diverting attention away from themselves. I said I would consider an action a long time away in the future and invited others to share their opinion before committing myself to anything rash. You chose to interpret this as me pushing an agenda. This is not the townie jimbob that I'm used to meet.
Your "carefully chosen" words should be more carefully chosen and clearer then. This is your original post:
Sabrar wrote:I'll be heartily considering to lynch DethStalker on D2 for balance reasons if daystart votals will once more contain an additional vote on him, as he's a complete liability in LYLO situations if Town, therefore I do not think that is the case. OTOH don't think that scum would be outed so easily as well, so thoughts welcome on this matter.
You explicitly state that you'll be "heartily considering" lynching DethStalker D2 "for balance reasons". You do admittedly go on to say "he's a complete liability in LYLO situations if Town, therefore I do not think that is the case", implying to me at least that you do not think that he is town (although your next statement goes on to suggesting he's not scum either), but the initial phrase implies to me that you want to lynch him regardless of scumminess, to make sure he's not around at LYLO and making it unbalanced in favour of scum. That whole sentence does not read well, which is why it's unclear what your intentions are, and hence my confusion and demand for clarity.

The fact that you respond with an accusation at me rather than simply explaining what you mean is worth noting.

Responding to your earlier post on my vote comments:
Sabrar wrote:- Votals were included with D1 start-post, no indication that there were any N0 actions. DethStalker appeared with 1 vote with no player listed as having voted for them. bessie had a vote on Gopher of Pern.
- There are no hidden aspects to roles, so if you have to 'guess at one of the following' then it is clearly not related to your ability so you can't be 'double-voter under special circumstances', making your later defense have no merit.
- So now we can already exclude 4 because neither part makes sense.
- 3 is ridiculous (or needs bastardry in the game) as there can be no 'phony' votes unless the official votals do not show the correct situation. However mpolo denied this in his reply to my inquiry earlier.
- 1 is possible but requires a role that a) compulsively votes at the start of the day and b) is not revealed with probably c) can't vote normally. I find it this too much to believe, I think individual vote-related powers/restrictions would modify at most 1 aspect of the process and not 2/3.

So now we see that you produced a list that at a simple glance can be reduced to a single element (2 if you include 'everything else') and that makes your 'experiment' of voting DethStalker even more interesting as in hindsight it provided the platform upon which you could theorize about implausible scenarios.
Your second point is invalid. I never said I didn't know about any vote-manipulation powers I might have (double-vote or otherwise), but I don't know anything about DethStalker beyond their character name, hence why it's only a guess as to a possible cause, as a theoretical double-vote I have would alone not explain the situation. Regarding your point about the no phony votes, I'll admit to not grasping the implications of mpolo's comment about the final votals, but now that I think I do, I agree that 3 is almost certainly not the case. Anyway, it's all much of a muchness. I wanted to understand the game mechanics better, so used my vote to that effect, similar to how I switched my vote to Gopher and speculated a bit to see what people had to say. I'll be placing a serious vote shortly following the completion of my re-read.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:10 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Full re-read, player by player and thoughts on them:
bessie - asks Gopher to try to make her remove her vote. Greets new players. Hasn't been presented with a compelling reason to move her vote. Suggests GoP should try hunting scum rather than fish. Doesn't like SDK's confirmed town claim on her, and suggests reasons behind it. Thoughts on DethStalker - he is a liability. Wants Madge to post. Thinks jester unlikely. Asks Sabrar about his choice of her to ask to analyse certain players. Confused by SDK's comment re. scummy role. Wonders why LaserGuy and I pointed out SDK's assertion of her being town. Townie meta comment. Gopher is role-fishing. We should be careful with our votes. Suggests that some blood drawn on her would do something. Asks LaserGuy to explain his suspicion of SDK. Promises to move her vote after a better candidate than Gopher presents itself. Wonders why SDK thinks DethStalker is scum. Doesn't like my DethStalker vote thoughts. Finds my comments about my previous game's guessing interesting. Finds Gop and I are fishing hard. Wonders if DethStalker is trying to claim something. BoomFrog's reads list is impressive. Fed up with DethStalker.

BoomFrog - RL issues. Asks GoP about why he wants people to claim vote manipulation. Knowing details of vote manipulation will help scum more than town. Wants DethStalker to give sensible content. Brief ordered reads list. Votes Znirk. LaserGuy's comment is a valid objection. SCum probably don't know about if there are other scum or not. Votes DethStalker for being unhelpful.

DethStalker - Some words, 95% of which I don't understand. The other 5% is his confirmation post.

DGames | Bard - Introduces himself. Jokey response to Yoloswag's vote on him. Bessie confirmation rubs him the wrong way, as do the start-votes. Wants to know proof of bessie's innconcence and asks about number of vote manipulation abilities. Flavour implies there might be two scum factions. Asks dimochka why he is self-voting. Thinks bessie's role would be unfair for scum. Unsure how to respond to dimochka. Agrees with SirG re. disliking Gopher's suggestion about voting abilities. Thinks attention and scrutiny will be focused on bessie because of her ability. Asks SDK why he confirmed bessie as town right out of the gate. Misunderstood voting format. Agrees that SDK's approach is an oddity. Likes current content. Thinks it's too early to jump to conclusions about DethStalker's alignment. Agrees with plytho and I re. Sabrar's motion to kill of DethStalker on policy.

dimochka - Votes himself - "everybody should be talking about me". Seems we are dealing with more than one adversary. Plans to question the rest of us.

freezeblade - Thinks initial votes are examples of mandatory voting. Thinks dimochka might have got one of his submitted traits. Thinks bessie vote is mandatory and vote on DethStalker is either mandatory or might simply be that DethStalker always has a vote on them.

Gopher of Pern - Demands bessie to remove the day start vote. Votes SDK for revealing a known townie early (or faking to do so). Two scum factions may be in play. Thinks people with vote-manipulation abilities should claim - could help scum, but could help town more (scum go after those with vote powers and miss other power roles). Continues to reiterate this point. Thinks scum + SK more likely. Prefers 10/4/1/1 or 9/4/1/1/1. Asks LaserGuy about his co-aligned scum theory. Agrees that automatic vote on DethStalker most likely. Asks why BoomFrog put himself as scummy.

#HBC | Yoloswag - Votes Bard. Thinks he might have played with him before, and asks DethStalker for their experience. Joke(?) response to Sabrar's first post and random vote on freezeblade. Asks if scum day chat is a rarity. Probably two scum teams due to flavour and mpolo's choice of language. Sees no reason for kills to operate differently at the moment. Bessie being confirmed town is cool. Has no info re. bessie. SDK should say so if he is doing early game sheanigans. Explains comments in response to Sabrar. Votes DethStalker. Explains in response to me why he thought a second mafia team is likely. Hates when townies allude to being scum. Asks DethStalker a question.

LaserGuy - Points out day-start votes, asking for comment. Dislikes SDK's confirmation of bessie. Sabrar was probably referencing bessie and her analysis of confirmation posts. All votes are serious. Votes SDK. Responds to plytho re. day start votes, in a rather verbose way. Thinks uncontrolled votes are anti-town. Speculates on setup, including two scum teams. Pleased Gopher shares suspicion of SDK. Speculates on nature of scum teams. Madge is town? Unvotes Znirk (despite never having a vote on him...). Discusses my ideas for the DethStalker votes. Doesn't follow my line of reasoning re. lyncher!SDK. Says opening flavour plus other experienced players is his reason for believing two-scum team scenario. Thinks random vote manipulation is injurious to town. Explains the two scum team setup even further. 4/3/3 is a losing position for town.

Madge - SDK makes a good point about his role PM, and the scumminess of it. Her character is not the greatest.

plytho - SDK's assumption that Sabrar had the bessie=town confirmation as well was weird. Clarifies a couple of points to other players. Doesn't get what LaserGuy meant with regards to "nefarious forces" with reference to the day start votes. Asks freezeblade for clarity on his thoughts on the day start votes. Reads list to follow on Monday. Thinks likely DethStalker has vote due to him always having an additional vote. Thinks some points are out "there". Likes my point re. Sabrar and his suggestion of lynching DethStalker. The extra vote should only lead us to lynching DethStalker if he otherwise looks scummy.

Sabrar - Joke-votes freezeblade, along with other joke comments. Doesn't have bessie confirmed as town, and interested in SDK's reaction. Switches vote to Yoloswag. Asks Yoloswag about his comments re. bessie. Responds to DGames, re. votals, two scum factions. Asks him why he thinks bessie's ability is unfair to scum, and wants more explanation from Yoloswag. Asks bessie to switch her vote. Ordered reads list. Accepts that he was reading Yoloswag's comments wrong. Terse responses to SDK. Asks SDK why he decided to reveal confirmed town!bessie so early. Asks Yoloswag why Yolo assumed Sabrar thought bessie was town. Leading question to LaserGuy re. scum team sizes. Follows up further on this. Upset by bessie's refusal to move her vote. Jumps on the wagon of disliking my 5 suggestions for the DethStalker vote. Asks BoomFrog if he intends to claim indie. Bessie did not react to SDK's reveal. Aggressive question on Yoloswag. Analyses my list of DethStalker vote reasons and provides a conclusion. Considering lynching DethStalker D2 due to additional vote on him, and asks for thoughts. Pondering bessie's addressing of specific topics. SirGabriel takes a dive to the scummy side. Switches vote to me for misinterpreting his comments. Discusses the DethStalker additional vote situation. Promises to reveal suspicion of SirGabriel in due time. Asks DethStalker to speak in plain terms.

SDK - claims bessie is town, and assumes Sabrar is as well. Received a scummy town role PM, but not a miller. Follows Sabrar onto freezeblade. bessie is good at acting town when scum. Did not believe Sabrar had the same confirmation as him, but said it for interest's sake. Asks Sabrar for what he sees in his own reaction, and related questions. Doubles-down on proof of bessie's innocence. Asks Bard why he thought people were calling bessie town based on day-start votes. Would like more from dimochka. Asks Madge to elaborate re. his PM. Asks Gopher what he expects from his question, re. vote manipulations, and cannot see why a townie would want to reveal this info. Responds to Sabrar's terse responses. Might have two teams, or an SK and a mafia team. Refuses to reveal reasons behind his early claim, but suggests that he will later (or it will be clear after he dies). Thinks DethStalker might be scum.

SirGabriel - joke(?) votes Sabrar over day chat. Thinks Gopher's vote manipulation claim idea is terrible, because it would tell scum who is most dangerous. Knew Sabrar was joking. Comments on Yolo's memory of two mafia teams re. aliens in Smalltown. DethStalker's lack of content and SDK's claim of knowing bessie is town stand out. The latter is because he can't think of any reason within mpolo's rules that SDK could have this knowledge without being mason. Certain that SDK is lying and votes him. Also a couple of weird comments, that I originally read as breadcrumbs, but thinking about it are probably just role-playing aspects.

Znirk - One post, with a reads list. Has reasons for holding dimochka as town, promised to explain later. Suggests scum!LaserGuy is trying to communicate that his scum-buddies should try to target town. Sees a reason for why a townie may ask the "any vanillas" question that scum aren't yet aware of. Has SirGabriel, SDK, LaserGuy as his main suspects. Mistakes Madge for bessie.
bessie: Less content than normal from her, but she has got real-life reasons. Nothing major stood out to me as obviously scummy - it all seems fairly typical bessie so far (with the exception that she hasn't started massively tunnelling on somebody yet :P ). Moderately townie, partially influenced by SDK's claim.
bessie wrote:@DethStalker, jimbobmacdoodle is defending you. What is your opinion of jimbobmacdoodle? Do you think he is town?
I'm defending DethStalker?

BoomFrog: Not much content yet either. I'm less impressed by his reads list than bessie appears to be, since he doesn't actually really explain his scummy reads with any detail. He also didn't answer my question when I asked him to about his read on me, although I'm tentatively willing to put both these points down to his lack of time currently. Slightly townie, but needs more content and responses.

@BoomFrog, please could you further explain the scummy reads you have of LaserGuy, myself and Znirk, with a little more detail.

DethStalker: I'm agreeing with everybody else here on DethStalker. He is being completely unhelpful, and I assume deliberately so. I don't understand why anybody would do this, unless they're a jester, especially as it's been made clear to him that it is unnecessary and unwanted. There's newbieness and then there's this madness. I'm not sure if scummy is the right word to describe it, but I'm certainly not opposed to his lynch as things stand.

@DethStalker, please drop the excessive role-playing and speak in plain English prose. It is making it impossible for anybody to understand what you are saying. Please also explain your lack of useful content up to now and what you were trying to achieve with it, and go back and answer the questions people have asked you.

DGames | Bard: A bit active-lurky, in that he hasn't produced any original content really to speak of, but has said quite a lot. His early comments seem to be mostly asking for reasons behind joke votes, and he commented a bit on SDK's claim on bessie. Most of the rest of what he's said has been simply agreeing with others comments. Scummy.

dimochka: lurking badly - his last post was 9.26pm UTC on Thursday. He has made two posts, and they contain basically nothing about from some role-playing. Scummy, due to lurkiness.

freezeblade: also produced very little content, although he has stated this would be the case over the weekend. His only real comments so far have been on the day start votes, and dimochka's role-playing. Slightly scummy, pending further content.

Gopher of Pern: At this point, in my re-read, I'm beginning to wonder who actually does have content? Gopher has more posts than the previous two, but they are mostly focused on the same topic (vote manipulation and later a bit of setup speculation), and made no real attempt to scum hunt from what I can tell in the majority of his posts. Scummy.

#HBC | Yoloswag: Mostly been focused on SDK's "confirmation" of bessie being town and responses to a couple of people. Not actually posted any thoughts on who he finds scummy apart from his vote. I don't get a scummy vibe here, but still. Slightly scummy, pending further content.

@Yoloswag - who do you think is scum, and why?

LaserGuy: Spends most of his time talking about the setup and vote abilities, with no opinions on individual players so far, apart from his comment about SDK and his early claim of town!bessie. I'm really confused by his "Unvote Znirk" when he was voting for SDK at the time, but I assume he meant "Vote Znirk", in which case, I want to know why he meant that, given that his only comment was on Znirk's (presumed) mistake saying that SDK said that Madge is town, which was fairly clearly meant to be about bessie. As stated previously, I found his question asking me if I had reason to believe other than a two-scum team to be role-fishing. If I had information to share that I thought would be valuable to share at this point, I'd have shared it. Scummy, and this time not because of lack of posts.

Madge: I'm not sure if it's possible, but she has even less content than DethStalker (only one post, 11.36pm UTC, Thursday). I really can't even put a label on her for the amount she's got.

plytho: General feeling on plytho is that he feels the same as his last couple of games where he was town, although I'm slightly uncomfortable with the fact that he is largely just agreeing with other people's comments. Slightly town, but needs a reads list (which he has promised) or at least some opinions on other players.

Sabrar: I'm really trying hard to not let Sabrar's reactions to my content and the subsequent vote lead me to an OMGUS feel, but it's quite hard. Much of his early content is fairly typical Sabrar, but it's taken a steep decline in quality in his last few posts. For example, he discards some of my speculation re. the DethStalker out-of-hand, and uses that as a basis for suspicion on me, when his reasoning for discarding them doesn't really stand up from my point of view. He makes some poorly written statement about lynching DethStalker and then doesn't like it when I misinterpret them. His ongoing discussion of the "lynch DethStalker because of their potential negative trait" seems like a really weird thing to be discussing as well. A part of me is thinking that it's an attempt by scum!Sabrar to lay seeds in people's minds that we should lynch DethStalker because of that trait, although I hope that isn't what he is suggesting - I particularly don't like how usually logical Sabrar is looking at the whole situation from only one angle, namely "town DethStalker is a liability to Town" and doesn't appear to consider that "scum DethStalker is a liability to Scum". Finally, his "I'm not saying what I see that is scummy in SirG at this point" really doesn't sound good. Why refuse to give this sort of information?

Further back, away from his points relating to me, he has been very aggressive in tone to other players: "I dared to presume..." directed at SDK (who is known for doing this all the time), the leading question "don't you think a ..." directed at LaserGuy and his "do you always vote without explanation or just when you're SK?" directed at Yoloswag.

@Sabrar - why are you being so aggressive?

I'd really appreciate it if other people could review these points and correct me if I'm being unreasonable (I might well be letting the OMGUS get to me, which I have a tendency to do), because the way I see it, I'm calling Sabrar scum.

SDK: hasn't really come out of the blocks in the way I'm used to seeing SDK (in that he hasn't hounded anyone in particular), but his interaction with Sabrar seems close to typical, at least from SDK's side. He is clearly willing to interact with multiple players, and although I don't understand his early claim of town!bessie, I'm tentatively willing to accept that he might have a genuine reason that will become clear later. His assertion that DethStalker is scum needs backing up, and he has now gone AWOL so far this weekend. I'm reading him as typical town!SDK for now.

SirGabriel: quiet generally, but not as quiet as some. His point of view on SDK is different to most people's, although I disagree with it (I could think of several roles that would not need much, if any, adjusting to know that bessie is town, and have a reason to claim it). I don't think scum!SirGabriel would go out of his way to suggest this though, so I'm putting SirG as moderately town.

Znirk: whilst I like that he took the time to give some reads in his one and only post, I don't particularly like them, nor do I like that he has only made the one post. In particular, his suggestion that LaserGuy is trying to direct his team onto lynching town rather than another scum team seems weird. I don't get how he could jump to that conclusion, but in lieu of any further explanation from him, I'm assuming that's the reason behind his vote. I'm willing to put the Madge/bessie mix-up as an accidental mistake, but if Znirk flips scum, I'll be scrutinising Madge something chronic. In the meantime, I'm reading him as scum as well.

@Znirk - please could you explain your vote on LaserGuy further and in particular what you thought scum!LaserGuy would be hoping to achieve with his apparent attempt at chatting in plain sight.

Yes, I realise that my list has a lot of scum. Here's my ordered list, where I'm deliberately highlighting the "lurker scum" reads as opposed to the scum reads based on content:

--- lurker scum/very low content ---
--- end of lurkers ---
DGames | Bard
Gopher of Pern
Znirk (also lurker, but scum because of what he has posted)

Vote Znirk

Requesting modprods on dimochka and Madge

Ninja'ed by Sabrar. Response to follow.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:15 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:but the initial phrase implies to me that you want to lynch him regardless of scumminess
Again, if this is what my phrase 'implies' to you then you do not consider my argument as a whole and once more fail to include the last part where I ask specifically for the opinion of others.
But I already explained all this to plytho as well and it seems you haven't taken that into account either.
That's because your argument, as a whole or otherwise, doesn't make sense in the way it's worded in that original post, which was the point I was trying to make in my previous post. Anyway, asking for other people's opinions on a bad strategy doesn't make it a less bad strategy or your original statement any easier to understand. In fact, I'd argue that scum would be just as likely to ask for thoughts as town would be, when they deliberately propose a slightly dodgy strategy. What you subsequently said to plytho is irrelevant to the argument - my initial response to your original proposal was prior to any response you made to plytho, and my recent follow up post was made in light of your response to it. In other words, we are arguing about the original post and response, and whether I'm justified in my original reaction, which appears to be what you don't like.
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Your second point is invalid. I never said I didn't know about any vote-manipulation powers I might have
Strawman, I didn't say that you did. But your 'guess' implies that any such power you may have is not the cause of this anomaly.
Looks like I might have misinterpreted your point again then, because I took it to mean that you were discounting the case as being because I thought I might have hidden vote-related powers. Anyway, even given the fact that I know my abilities, and assuming that I have a related one, I still might not be able to explain the full picture, so "guess" is still the right word.

All the ninjas.
Sabrar wrote:In that case lynching him would be an excellent idea, n'est-ce pas?
Now you're using a straw man - we don't know which case we're in at this point. You seem to suggest that we should lynch him, just to make sure that we don't have a liability in our team by LYLO, whereas it could be argued that we shouldn't lynch him because he could be a liability to the opposite team at that point and delay effective LYLO.

@SirGabriel - Bodyguard who makes their target permanently immune to night kills as long as he is alive is the most obvious one. Claiming it means that if he dies at night (as town!SDK is prone to do early on), bessie is confirmed town to the rest of us, whilst if scum go for the confirmed-townie, their kill will fail. One-way lover, who knows their target's alignment, is another. In this case, SDK is trying to scare scum away from her (obvious doctor/watcher target for instance).

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:17 am UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Now you're using a straw man - we don't know which case we're in at this point. You seem to suggest that we should lynch him, just to make sure that we don't have a liability in our team by LYLO, whereas it could be argued that we shouldn't lynch him because he could be a liability to the opposite team at that point and delay effective LYLO.
Had a reply written out, crossed out because it seemed ridiculous that you were suggesting this. Are you saying that we shouldn't lynch DethStalker because he can be scum and a liability for them? How is not lynching possible scum ever a good idea? Wouldn't it also delay LYLO?
We are ALL potential scum (possible exception is bessie, and even that isn't confirmed at this point to anyone apart from SDK, apparently). If we have a choice between two equally-scummy candidates, say DethStalker and Gojoe (deliberately picking non-player for example purposes here), then the argument that we should lynch DethStalker because they could be a liability to town works in exactly the same way for arguing that we shouldn't lynch DethStalker at that point (and lynch Gojoe instead), because they could be a liability to scum. Of course, if DethStalker remains scummy, we should lynch them at a later point, assuming that nobody else is equally scummy. Note: I am not arguing that we shouldn't lynch DethStalker. I'm arguing that we shouldn't lynch them purely because of their apparent ability. If they are the scummiest player aside from the ability, they should be lynched, no doubt about it. Whether or not you consider the ability itself scummy is a different issue.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:42 am UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:then the argument that we should lynch DethStalker because they could be a liability to town works in exactly the same way for arguing that we shouldn't lynch DethStalker at that point (and lynch Gojoe instead), because they could be a liability to scum.
Don't agree because end result is different. Going back to previous example, we have 5-2 with Gojoe and DethStalker being equally scummy. If both of them are Town lynching Gojoe loses the game, lynching DethStalker puts us at LYLO. If both of them are scum then lynching DethStalker puts us at standard 4-1, lynching Gojoe makes it 4-1 with additional vote on DethStalker. At that point lynching DethStalker next would be sensible from our pov as even if wrong we end up in LYLO, another mislynch could make us lose if he's Town.
Summary: from 2 equally scummy players DethStalker is the safer choice because of additional vote.
That's fair, I think. I get where you're coming from now. I'm fairly confident that there are cases where it is possible to get to the point where it is better to lynch Gojoe rather than DethStalker, if they are equally scummy, but I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, as in my brief thinking on it, I couldn't think what they were. Either way, I would suggest that it doesn't need discussing further until the situation arises.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:37 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
BoomFrog wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@BoomFrog, please could you further explain the scummy reads you have of LaserGuy, myself and Znirk, with a little more detail.

In a past life I might have erred so grievously,
That a villain could learn from me to better himself and his seeming.
To be outwitted by ones own wit is the most disastrous of fates.
Even in the next life I wouldn't chance to meet that bitter end again.

Aside, you agree with my ill view of Sir LaserGuy and Znirk,
yet you question me to my motives.
Your betrothed must be enchanted with your dexterous lips
Able to disagree on one side while agreeing from the other.
I don't like players throwing out scum-reads on anybody without actually explaining them. It's really easy for scum to throw out such reads on people if they don't have to give their reasoning behind them. What little you said on the points for LaserGuy and Znirk also confused me, hence why I wanted information in particular. Just because I have a reason for finding them scummy doesn't mean you do, or if you do, you may not share the same reason with me. Speaking of lack of reasoning behind scummy opinions...

@Ninja!LaserGuy, you have cast an unsubstantiated vote with zero reasoning on our dear bessie. Why?

SirGabriel's list on its own is even less helpful than BoomFrog's. I look forward to his reasoning, as a number of his placements differ significantly from my own.

Unless bessie is talking about my points re. not lynching DethStalker just because of the mysterious vote sitting on him, I don't see where I'm defending DethStalker.

I like plytho's recent post, but I find it interesting that he doesn't comment on SDK's latest claim that he doesn't actually have concrete confirmation of bessie's townieness.

Speaking of SDK's change of claim, it doesn't match what he originally said:
SDK originally wrote:Are you asking this because bessie is town? Because she is. Good to know that someone else got that confirmation in their role PM too.
SDK more recently wrote:I will say this, if it puts your mind at ease: My role PM does not explicitly state that bessie is town. My role interacts with bessie in a way that points to her being town as very likely.
He starts off saying that he got confirmation that bessie is town, yet is now saying that it is only very likely that she is town. There's a big difference between the two, especially as he also said in that more recent post that he had been entirely honest so far (with the exception of the comment on Sabrar receiving confirmation about bessie). Ninja'ed by LaserGuy with basically the same point.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:46 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Phone post on journey home about latest posts. More later on.
Sabrar wrote:After giving it some thought LaserGuy's apparent ability is not that scary and can't really be abused. We just have to make sure that the main wagon has a big enough lead, while also avoiding putting anyone to L-1.
Pretty confident I know what it is as well. I agree with your caution, and especially given the likely presence of other vote abilities, avoiding L-1 until there is pretty universal opinion seems wise.

Guardian Angel is not usually a town role, which is what the discussion was about, I think, so SDK's and Sabrar's points in relation to SirGabriel in this area are invalid (i.e. he's not definitely lying based on that Gojoe post). However, he didn't put much effort into considering the possibilities, which has me frowning at him.

Many Ninjas including confirmation of my belief re. LaserGuy.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:32 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Quick re-read of most recent content, and updated reads:

bessie - confused by LaserGuy vote weirdness. DethStalker suggestions. Confirmation post thoughts. Looking for my reaction to me defending DethStalker statement. Gopher defended DethStalker. Asks Gopher for list of scummier players. Thinks DethStalker newbie scum (refusing offers of help, not posting when online). Suspicious that LaserGuy pointed out bessie as obvious NK target. Thinks plytho is defending a course of action. Switches vote to me. Finds interesting people who accepted SDK confirmation as truth, when holding him as scum. Asks freezeblade for analysis. Sarcasm @LaserGuy wine. Sees difference between mine and plytho's defence. Thought hated was scummy.

BoomFrog - Refuses to explain his reads, because he might give scum info on how to improve. Wants more content from players. Trying to prod lurkers into producing content. Thinks Sabrar should revisit me, as I appear townie on re-read. SDK has been unhelpful close to deadline. Going to vote one of LaserGuy or SDK. Asks SDK about Madge in his top scum group. Asks for town to scum list, preferably with reasons.

DethStalker - When he scum reads he can't, or something. Trying to contribute, asks for list of questions.

DGames | Bard - New to mafia, not opposed to his lynch, due to lack of useful content. Potentially a town time bomb, but willing for opinion to change. Gopher content fixated on roles and not connections/reads. Asks about hated being scummy. Asks for further clarity on GoP and LG reads from Yoloswag. SDK claim is bold - uncertain behind initial intent, and not being transparent, neutral, not necessarily scummy. Gopher, Dethstalker stick out. Thinks LG contributed a lot more than GoP. GoP/DethStalker lynch candidates. Bits of GoP posts too fluffy, no town intent. Not sure what trying to achieve. Votes GoP, but uncertain. Challenges GoP to a duel...

dimochka - skim summary, with comments on highlights. Doesn't like Yoloswag acceptance of bessie is town. 3 (normal)/2 (supernatural) scum teams. Explains reason for two scum teams, rather than SK and scum. Doesn't see why others find LaserGuy(Znirk?) scummy. Speculates on reason for SDK to claim town!bessie. Sabrar/bessie town. SDK non-town. Znirk scummy. Doubts jester. SDK's claim is strange, and says little about his alignment. Doubts SDK is standard scum, but also not town.

freezeblade - some setup speculation. SDK isn't pinging him as much as normal. Requested replacement.

Gopher of Pern - DethStalker likely newbie town. Liability does not justify early lynching over scummier candidates. My reads list is mostly scum. Doesn't see bessie as scummy. Yolo similar to last game due to no reasons. Feeling good about Sabrar. Adds to role ideas for SDK knowing bessie as town. Does not like BoomFrog jumping on DethStalker. Scummiest players are me, Yolo, BoomFrog, possibly SDK. Dislikes LG's characterisation of BF. Defensive versus plytho re. DS. Suspicious of plytho's list (disagrees with it), wants to know why he has people as townie. Responds to questions, doesn't like focusing on setup spec. Votes BoomFrog - provided extremely little in what he has said, and avoiding matters of import.

Yoloswag - DethStalker can go, due to refusal to contribute. LG & GoP spent lots of time discussing setup early. Thinks LG scummier from this than GoP. We should hold Bard accountable. Repeats DethStalker is best shot. Vig should shoot one of DS/FB/Znirk/Madge. Not enthusiastic about Madge lynch currently.

LaserGuy - responds to bessie's comment, re. his pointing out scum target (what else would he say?). Thinks that town!SDK would not make such a statement early on. SDK in pool of scum/anti-town indies/townie with extremely scummy wincon(huh?). SDK might have invented the info. SDK does not willingly reveal info D1. May return to voting him later. Dislikes Sabrar for attempting to role-fish via mod. Interacts with SDK over claim. Points out contradiction in claim. Has a theory for the explanation. Votes bessie. Reads on all other players. Asks DethStalker questions, and gets angry with him. Unvotes. Thought ability he submitted might have been given to bessie and was trying it out. Explains vote mechanic. Provides town to scum list. Me scummiest. Tempted to vote for Madge. Explains how he's feeling.

bessie - (1st in townie list, previously moderately townie, partly due to SDK claim): Her vote on me hasn't been explained explicitly, which as I've said before, I don't like in principle (applies to all votes after initial RVS, not just ones on me). I think she's being overly critical of LaserGuy's pointing out of her as a night target. Any scum worth their salt knows that a "confirmed" townie is bad for them (cue reaction from bessie that I'm pointing it out again), so unless she's fishing for reactions, I don't understand her aggression on this point. She's prodded a few people, which is always good, but her other content has felt a little forced at times. Slightly townie still, but has slipped from her previous place.

BoomFrog - (5th, slightly townie, needing more content): As I said earlier, I'm not a fan of his refusing to explain his reads further, but I assume that he'll be explaining any remaining unexplained scummy reads (i.e. LaserGuy), after he's finished re-reading LaserGuy. No change on my read on him, still slightly townie, largely due to gut feeling at this point.

DethStalker - (9th, madness/pseudo-lurker): I don't think anything's changed here, but it still could if DethStalker actually bothers to produce some content (like responding to the questions he's been asked, posting some opinions on who he thinks scum are etc). I don't think mpolo's under any obligation to replace him, since he is posting. Just posting terribly. Still perfectly happy with his lynch, though there are probably better candidates.

DGames | Bard - (11th, Scummy): His only post (apart from his duel-challenge) since my previous reads list was quite a big one. He says a lot, but there's not actually that much meat in it, in my opinion. I note that he does seem to be playing the "uncertain about everything" card ("perhaps I am misreading him"), which may be fair for someone being new to the forums, but otherwise I'd regard as a scum tell. Not really changing from my previous scummy read of him.

@Bard - Aside from GoP and DethStalker, who do you find scummiest? Why?

dimochka - (10th, slightly scummy due to lurking): I'm dropping the lurker tag here now, as dimochka has certainly contributed now. He promised a scum to town list over 24 hours ago, but has yet to provide it (though this is typical from dimochka). My gut is reading him as slightly townie now, but there's still not much in the way of opinions on most players.

freezeblade - (8th, slightly scummy pending further content): Not much new from him. His only contribution since his last reads post was mostly focused on setup speculation. I'd have thought he'd have tried to post some thoughts on one or two players, (aside from his almost throw-away comment about SDK), in that post. Still slightly scummy lurker.

Gopher of Pern - (12th, scummy): Gopher has upped his game somewhat since my reads list, in that he has commented on people and started to provide some justifications behind some of his reads. However, his reads on plytho and BoomFrog are very different to mine. Improving, but still on the scummier side of neutral, due to earlier concerns.

#HBC | Yoloswag - (7th, slightly scummy due to low content): Seems to be lasered in on DethStalker, which I can totally understand, though I'm wondering if it's at a cost of looking at other players. His heads up on Bard is good information, but I wouldn't mind having Yolo's own his opinion on Bard. Gut reading is moving him into a slight town position from his previous lurker slot, but that's hardly concrete.

LaserGuy - (14th, scummy): I've already made comments about LaserGuy and how I don't like a lot of what he's said up to now. The thing that's bothering me the most is his accusations against SDK. He really isn't trying very hard to think of why town!SDK might confirm bessie as town. That all being said, a number of his opinions do match my own, and his response to SDK's recent question feels like it would have been hard to manufacture as scum. I still think he is scum, but I'm not 100% confident in it. Possibly an anti-town indie?

-- No more detailed notes on remaining players - it's getting too late --

Madge - (6th, lurker extraordinaire): one big post since her prodding, talking about vote manipulation. She seems to be coming down against DethStalker, and dislikes SirG for his comment about roles matching SDK's claim. Nothing stands out there. There's a hint of something in the post that makes me feel that she is more likely town than not, but it could easily go the other way.

plytho - (4th, slightly town): so much of what he has said all game lines up with my opinions. There are some differences (e.g. his read of Bard), but I don't expect people to 100% agree with me on everything. Probably Town.

Sabrar - (13th, scum, possibly OMGUS): As I noted earlier, I now get his case regarding DethStalker, but I'm surprised that he still doesn't appear to see it from my or plytho's point of view. He is prodding people as always, making lots of posts as well. There is a niggle about his (and others') thoughts over LaserGuy's vote ability, which I'm reluctant to disclose, for fear of helping scum. If there's a general consensus from some of my townier reads for me to explain it, I will. It's not something that necessarily makes Sabrar scum for thinking it though. I don't like his FTFY on Yoloswag, not so much because it adds me (though that's what grabbed my attention), but more because he seems to be suggesting that Yoloswag made an accidental mistake in the list, potentially trying to mislead others. If he had his own opinion, he should have stated this explicitly, rather than trying to co-opt someone else's belief. Still slightly scummy, though improving.

SDK - (2nd, typical town!SDK): As I said earlier, I don't like his contradiction over confirmation versus very likely that bessie is town, especially given his comments re. being honest. Otherwise, his interactions with LaserGuy in particular seem good. I'm a little surprised that he missed LaserGuy's ability being mandatory, but having played with scum!SDK last guy, I learnt in scum chat that he isn't infallible! I'm curious that he unvoted LaserGuy however. Overall, still reasonably happy with him being in town.

@SDK - you just unvoted LaserGuy, when he was previously your top scum pick. What is it that convinced you otherwise?

SirGabriel - (3rd, moderately town): As I said earlier, SirG's lack of thought as to possible town!SDK roles based on his claim is disturbing. I also think he's not considering the point about having character traits when considering why SDK might have a scummy role. Still slightly townie, but I want to do a full re-read of him at some point (not likely going to happen this game day though).

Znirk - (15th, scum and lurker): Not posted since my last reads post, so no change. Still very scummy.

Requesting modprod on Znirk

Madge (lurker)
Gopher of Pern
DethStalker (lurker)
DGames | Bard

I'm not confident in my scum reads on Sabrar or LaserGuy, so would prefer a Znirk or DethStalker lynch at this stage.

I'll be online a bit in the morning UTC time, so can respond or address any points raised before deadline.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:59 am UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I don't like his FTFY on Yoloswag, not so much because it adds me (though that's what grabbed my attention), but more because he seems to be suggesting that Yoloswag made an accidental mistake in the list, potentially trying to mislead others. If he had his own opinion, he should have stated this explicitly, rather than trying to co-opt someone else's belief.

This is the 'I have to find Sabrar scummy to appear consistent but his logic is correct so I have to look for something else instead' nitpick. Also deliberate misrepresentation (in case you can't/don't want to open link: FTFY is typically used for humorous effect, pretending that the other poster made a mistake). If you compare the 'corrected' list with my town-to-scum list you will see that it contains exactly my own opinion as of that time.
Will reread jimbob during the night, don't understand what other people see in him.
Stated it as I saw it, though I'll take your word for it at this point that it was intended as humour. I had noticed that it matched your scum list, but that doesn't mean that it was intended as a joke.

On phone. Will try to find time at work to answer the other points addressed to me.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:22 am UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
DGames | Bard wrote:I've been crumbing this all game, so it's legit. Cat's honor!
Could you highlight how you have been doing this, please. I don't have time to check this out myself.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:38 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Town
Madge (lurker)
Gopher of Pern
DethStalker (lurker)
DGames | Bard

Where would freezeblade be?

Oops. I'd put him between Gopher and DethStalker (with the lurker tag).

Updated thoughts with deadline in not too long a period of time:

I have my doubts about the LaserGuy confirmation by Bard, but I'm willing to give them both some time to explain it, since at this point, it seems unlikely that a scum would put their neck on the line to clear him. I'd like to hear LaserGuy's comments on the claim.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Jimbob, pray tell, how are my reads of plytho different from your own?
I have no idea why I put that there - I suspect I got mixed up with somebody else, probably Sabrar or SDK. Apologies.

My Sabrar read is slipping in the townie direction, Bard and LaserGuy are tied together with Bard's claim, which I think deserves time to be demonstrated, and Znirk has gone AWOL (and nobody else seems to care that much about him). As much as I don't like being unfriendly to newcomers, DethStalker really hasn't helped themselves at all, despite numerous opportunities, so I'm going to join that wagon.

Vote DethStalker

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:41 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Sabrar wrote:- if you call a lot of players scummy due to low content then maybe you should postpone making a full list for a later time.
In principle I agree with you, but to explain why I do this - I have the most time at weekends, and cannot guarantee how much time I'll have during the week. Since those reads lists take quite a while to compile (order of hours), I have to do one each weekend, if I expect to do even a half-decent one.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act I opens

Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 3:34 pm UTC
by kalira
While I wasn't here for call time, I appreciate the magnanimity with which my fellow actors welcome me to the stage. I am certainly happy to be promoted from the chorus to a named character. I hope we can persevere and get through these production issues so we can give our audience the best performance possible! Unfortunately, the fact that I was so late to this rehearsal means I'm not going to be of much assistance today. I will go over the notes from today's rehearsal tonight so I can be more ready for rehearsal tomorrow.

(I probably won't roleplay as much as the above for the most part. It just takes too much effort and makes posts a lot longer, and my posts tend to be too long anyway!)

I'm actually working backstage for a show that's closing this weekend, so I won't be as present this weekend, but hopefully that won't be too much of an issue.

So many ninjas late in the day!

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:48 pm UTC
by kalira
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Whatever happened to freezeblade? One minute.....

Well, I heard the director wanted to go in a more risque direction and changed the casting last minute to make the Duke of Cornwall female.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:
mpolo wrote:We need to lynch from [dimochka/SirG/Sabrar/SDK/Madge/freezeblade.]

I take issue with the implications of this, not because former-me is on the list, but because you seem to be saying the people who were on Dethstalker's train should be excused from lynch (at least for today). I have zero issue believing that Dethstalker's scummate(s) might have decided to bus him early on in the day, especially after they saw how he was acting in thread. Do I think there is the possibility of scum in that lynch-list of yours? Sure. But to prop up the wagoneers as if they were above suspicion for voting for someone who was playing in a way people around here didn't find helpful is a no-go for me.

For the record, I agree with plytho's reasoning that there is a supernatural faction rather than a single supernatural SK. Having a cop who can get a "guilty" result on only a single player seems weird to include in a setup like this.

Ninjas, of course. SirG, I think it's possible for them to be different sizes, especially depending on what kinds of powers and such they have in play. As for third parties, I think they're still possibilities, but I would seriously doubt there is an SK if there is also a second scum faction (especially given there were only two deaths last night).

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:50 pm UTC
by kalira
Bah, screwed up the quoting, of course. That was YOLO's idea, not mpolo's. I just forgot to take out the beginning of his post where he was quoting votals (you would think I would've noticed that in preview, but noooooo).

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:10 pm UTC
by kalira
I thought I was going to be free from theatre obligations, but as it turns out, a local theatre’s ASM has to have knee surgery and they’ve asked me to fill in for the remainder of the run of this show, so my weekends are going to continue to be wonky basically through the end of June. On the positive side, this theatre may actually pay me instead of my volunteering for free! WOO!

I have not read much of D2 past where I contributed yet, so if something bombshell-y has happened or this analysis covers something someone else has already brought up, I will have to catch up to it.

Thoughts/things that stood out on D1, as requested (Okay, so this will be thoughts on pages 1-4 and Dethstalker’s wagon since it’s already getting long. Thoughts on pages 5+ to come as soon as I can write them.) (Intense apologies, esp to those who haven't played with me before, for the wall of text):

SDK was first to pick up on possibility of two killing factions (based on opening flavor), though he didn’t express it in those terms; I’m not sure if that makes him *more* or *less* likely to be in one of the killing factions or not (pointing out that we may need to look in two directions for scum is both a positive and a negative IMO). I would tend to lean toward that being a townie thing though, especially so early in the day. Not sure what to make of his interaction with Sabrar on the topic of bessie’s towniness.

Giving someone a restriction where they will automatically be voting someone at beginning of day seems a little too attention-drawing a thing to give to a scum player, so my initial thought was that bessie seemed more likely town than not, but that is solely based on game mechanics, and who knows precisely how bastardy this game is? (Bard does mention this same line of thought, so I’m not alone on that initial reaction, at least.) RE: bessie’s not responding to SDK’s “outing” her as town sooner, she claimed it was because she responds to things as they come to her. I have to imagine in a case where it seems someone has one-sided information about her, that it would be very appealing as something to talk about as soon as possible, so I wonder why she didn’t do so earlier. Then again, I have to ask myself whether scum!bessie would make such a misstep as to ignore an opening to seem more townie by pushing back against SDK.

LaserGuy: Early on, you mention you think a lyncher is a possibility. Do you still think this is a possibility? How do you think the lyncher would function in this game? Usually on this board (IIRC), a lyncher is given a character name that their role wishes to lynch, and they have to figure out who is playing that character, then get them lynched. With everyone’s roles already public knowledge, do you still think that a lyncher may be amongst our ranks?

GoP early on asks people with vote manipulation powers to come forward, then later walks this back after being called out on it, by saying “[it] was mainly about the one or two visible vote manipulations: dethstalker having an extra vote on them, and bessie having an automatic vote on me.” This didn’t really alleviate my misgivings about the concept, especially as he showed no inclination that this was what he meant in his original post.

LaserGuy wrote:
Znirk wrote:I think we're all agreed Day One is hard,
Yet what I hear in the debate thus far
Hath led me to suspect of Gabriel
And Laser Guy, and to a lesser point,
I wonder at what Master SDK
Is up to when he shouts that Madge is town.
vote: Laserguy

Madge is town? How curious.
Unvote Znirk

LaserGuy, can you explain why you would unvote here? It seemed curious, to use your own turn of phrase. (I don’t particularly care about the mechanics of your vote in this instance; I’m interested in why you would call out a mistake/slip on Znirk’s part and then unvote him, especially when he just voted for you.)

RE: LaserGuy’s discussion of mechanics of scum teams, possible he is scum attempting to call out to the other scum team and imply (whether truthfully or not) that their teams can win together? If he is scum on a low-population scum team, he would very likely suspect there had to be another scum team. Is scum!LG trying to flick the lights for the other scum?

BoomFrog wrote: Secondly scum likely don't know if there are other scum or not and there seems little need for them to stratagize about that D1.

Except that if there are two scum teams, they are both likely to be fairly small (as has been discussed both D1 and D2), which would very much suggest that there was another scum team in play (especially given that we know there is no cult in this game). If LG was on a scum team with, for example, two members, he would be hard pressed not to think that there had to be another scum team out there, as opposed to just an SK. It seems strange that BF would not have thought of this, so this quote from BF makes me a bit suspicious. Possibility he and LG are scummates?

I don’t see jimbob defending Dethstalker in the post that bessie sees it. To a certain extent her post asking DS what he thinks of jimbob’s defense sort of just strikes me as part of her new more aggressive style, combined with trying to get basically anything out of DS. (Sabrar apparently saw it too, but I’m not focusing on that bc that’s confirmed town-on-town, whereas bessie’s alignment is not yet confirmed.) This is in contrast to GoP’s post, in which he definitely defends DS – bessie treats this post the same as jimbob’s, though I see a marked contrast between them.

Not a lot of substance in Madge’s return post. Most had been covered already. Active lurking, or just normal “Madge hates D1”?

Reveal of SDK’s apparent beer: I am left to wonder why someone who is town would outright state someone else is town without complete confirmation. SDK’s claim that his role PM only implies that bessie is town is worrisome and means that town has been operating on incomplete/incorrect information ‘til this point. I still can’t figure SDK out on this point.

The wagon:
  • Jimbob votes Dethstalker before he shows up to the game, possibly to gain insight on Dethstalker’s “hated” vote (I am unsure if there is a better term for ‘automatic vote by non-existent entity because your character trait is hated,’ so I’m just using that one).
  • YOLO votes Dethstalker because “swag” after a few early rounds of not being able to get Dethstalker to give much info – called out specifically by SabrarV1.0 afterwards for no explanation. Mentions he does this (unexplained votes) regardless of alignment.
  • Jimbob unvotes fairly soon after, mentioning that DS is now at two votes from people plus DS’s extra vote. Still wants to discuss mechanics of what turned out to be the “hated” vote. Gives a lot of possible explanations, some considerably more sensical (screw you, spellcheck, I’m making that a word) than others.
  • After considerably more time and failure of efforts, a “you’re unhelpful” vote from BF.
  • No movement on votes for ~2 pages, and with less than a day left til nightfall, BF unvotes.
  • Quickvotes in final 10ish hours: SDK (no explanation explicitly given), BF (second vote for DS) (claimed because no option for his preferred lynch), plytho (DS’s unhelpfulness), Sabrar (no explanation explicitly given), jimbob (“join[ing] that wagon”).
  • SDK unvotes (“nothing to lose” by voting BF instead).
Thoughts: Jimbob’s initial vote is a null for me – testing the anonymous vote doesn’t seem any more town than not early on, and his late vote seems, well, “wagon”y. There was pretty much zero possibility of anyone else getting lynched at that point, so I’m not even sure why jimbob threw his vote on the pile, other than just to have a vote down. (I’m an idiot; slipped my mind that jimbob died and flipped town. Do what you will with that analysis.)

YOLO’s vote sticks to me just a little. If YOLO were town, he seems like he latches on to an unhelpful random early on and just doesn’t feel like letting go. If YOLO were DS’s scummate, possibility he figured out early on that DS’s content wasn’t going to get better and bussed from very early on. I feel like in previous games, he has seemed more interested in hunting around for scum rather than leaving his vote on one person for most of D1, but that may be an incorrect recollection (I’ll admit I may be conflating him with Sabrar or SDK on that front, as they’re all decently close to similar playstyles).

BF’s vote seems almost like a “test if this will start a wagon” vote. At the time BF voted, DS, GoP, and SDK each had 2 votes on them, so any of them were still possible candidates for his vote. It had become fairly clear that DS at that point was unlikely to improve content, though. Might be possible that BF is scum not on DS’s team that saw an opening to start a wagon to lynch low-hanging fruit. Seems unlikely that Guild!BF would bus his teammate at the point at which BF voted, but I suppose that is also possible; it just feels like he could have fairly easily thrown a good vote and explanation on either of the other two and tried to swing thoughts in that direction instead (presuming they were not also Guild).

If SDK is scum, likely not Guild member. Light possibility of scummates with non-Guild!BF, given they voted in quick succession against DS, which seemed to set off a wagon in the final hours of D1. SDK then unvoted at the end of the day. He claimed he had nothing to lose by switching his vote to BF, but there was no chance of lynching BF at that point; the wagon was too far gone. Possibility he jumped ship to avoid being on the wagon in case DS flipped town?

I get pretty much no information from plytho’s vote on DS – it mostly just seems like a wagon jump. For same reason as SDK, light possibility of scummates with non-Guild!BF, but it does seem a little less likely than SDK being same.

Last thing: just because I know it was frustrating to bessie last game that people were thinking she was NK’d because she was townie rather than because her reads were good, I just want to spoiler post jimbob’s and Sabrar’s final town-scum lists from D1 in case we can get any info from them.
From Wednesday, May 17:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Town
Madge (lurker)
Gopher of Pern
freezeblade (lurker)
DethStalker (lurker)
DGames | Bard

From Monday, May 15:
Sabrar wrote: TOWN
Gopher of Pern
Bard - neutral line is here

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:11 pm UTC
by kalira
While I'm working on second half of D1 and D2 thoughts, does anyone have questions for me?

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:40 pm UTC
by kalira
I have been called in to a suuuuuper quick suspense project at work, so I can't give the attention to the analysis I wanted today or tomorrow. I will do a quicker read and try to summarize thoughts on D1 reads and D2 when I get home, but apparently we're all staying late for this :(

I would be very on board for an extension if anyone else is interested in it!

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:49 pm UTC
by kalira
Okay, on with second half of D1:
Bard seems to be playing it safe D1 if YOLO’s description of him is accurate. RE: that description, I find it interesting that GoP (“You could be telling the truth, and they are scum hiding behind their newness to these forums, or you could be scum, trying to get a townie lynched due to your knowledge of them as a player.”) seems to ignore the possibility that YOLO is telling the truth and Bard is also townie cautious because new to these forums. If either/both of GoP and YOLO are scum, I don’t think they are on the same team. Their interactions are just off.

Bessie wrote: What I find interesting is those who so easily accepted SDK’s claim that I am town as truth, but would still label SDK scum.

If SDK is scum, and you are not on his team, chances are it is far more likely that you are town than not (especially as it had not been mostly confirmed that there was a second scum faction at that point). If you flip town, he could get townie points (though admittedly less likely due to everyone being super careful about reading into that claim, possibly due to other recent games). If you flip scum, he has now covered down on his losses by changing that claim to “my role PM *implies* she’s town.” So scum!SDK could successfully distance himself from that flip and end up not losing any face. I’m not saying I believe it or not, but I can see where people are coming from on it.

BoomFrog mentions that (Znirk and) Dethstalker should be the mod’s business, and that they should be replaced. Znirk was definitely in the lurker category, but BF should well know that a mod is not going to replace a player who is participating -- caveats probably always apply, but pretty much, if they’re playing, whether good, bad, or indifferent, no replacement. Hell, we’ve even had at least one game where a player was participating one Day only in that he talked to the mod through PM to say he was still around and posted pretty much nothing in thread, and he wasn’t modkilled (I can’t remember who or which game, but it sticks in my memory).
Ditto Madge and LaserGuy’s list, though LG has less history here to know such things.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote: I understand the hesitation because he is new, but he HAS given us something to work with: active refusal to contribute. Perhaps he doesn't want to say anything that could incriminate himself or potential scumbuddies.

Scum-ping. To me, that last sentence sounds more like scumbuddy coaching than what bessie was doing.

SDK wrote: Also, in my opinion, vig shots are just as powerful as the lynch. Like the lynch, they shouldn't be used to shoot lurkers unless there's no better choice available.

Agreed. Town has the numbers advantage, but that also means there is more of a chance that a lurker will be town just based on the numbers. Vigs shouldn’t shoot willy-nilly unless they actually think they’re targeting scum, especially on N1.

Cliffhangers (things I want to make sure I check in D2) –
  • BoomFrog wrote: If LaserGuy is scum I suspect DethStalker is too. Especially with how angry LaserGuy's later interaction with Dethstalker is.

    (From this post) I’m interested in what you think of LaserGuy after DS’s scumflip. Will come back to this once I’m caught up.
  • Does Bard ever explain his “verrrrrry good reasons” not to lynch LaserGuy?
  • Did Bard ever respond to Sabrar’s question here? If not, I second this question.
  • SDK claims one-sided information about bessie; Bard seems to claim (one-sided?) information about LaserGuy. LaserGuy does not post during the rest of D1. Does LaserGuy respond D2 to this claim? Is LaserGuy in this situation asked why he doesn't respond to this early after it was claimed?
  • Sabrar(V2.0) – I am curious whether you explain your former self with regards to Sabrar(V1.0)’s having placed your former self in such scummy settings on his list.

Must admit my suspicions were aroused a bit on dim, BF, Madge when reading late D1 given their placement of SabrarV1.0 at the absolute top of their town reads. (No offense intended, Sabrar, but) I feel like nobody should be that unsuspicious of Sabrar, esp on a D1. He plays much the same as scum as he does when he is town, so it is intensely difficult to determine where his allegiances lie D1 (unless of course, one is scum and knows that Sabrar is not on your team and therefore likely town). Of course, the fact that SabrarV1.0 ended up flipping town should have no bearing on this read, as town![dim,BF,Madge] theoretically would not know that SabrarV1.0 would flip as such.

LaserGuy (RE: Unvote Znirk): Ah, I guess I was interested in your vote mechanic after all. Thank you for the explanation. I didn’t make that connection. (I see you explained it later in D1 as well, so thanks also for repeating it.)

Skimmed and saw your question, so answering here.
Sabrar, RE: Dethstalker’s hated vote also being attention-grabbing – TBH, I saw it as less attention-grabbing than bessie’s autovote. Obv bessie’s vote automatically brings the attention of the person she’s voting for, and it would have been a fairly obvious stepping stone for conversation (Did you choose who your vote was going to be on before the game started? Why did you choose them? etc.). IDK why, but Dethstalker’s hated vote just felt different to me. It felt more as if they were someone who had been aggrieved by another player anonymously (less likely to me) or by the mod mechanically, so I guess the difference is more that bessie’s could be seen as aggressive whereas DS’s seemed kind of part of the background info. If I’m honest, though, I probably would have also given DS a slight pass as town on the basis of the hated vote at the beginning, but I have the benefit of their flip now. For the record, I don’t believe I said I believe bessie is town based on that autovote, just that the mechanic seems less likely to be given to a scum player, so I was leaning a little town on her at the beginning based on that.

Immediately jumping into D2 in depth.

Final D1 thoughts: I didn't like LG early on; if I had to vote based only on the first 4 pages, it very likely would have been him. His posts got more townie-seeming later in D1, but he feels like he's moving back and forth between scummy seeming and townie seeming for me. GoP and BF seeming a bit on the scummier side to me, and I'm not finding YOLO too likeable atm.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:53 pm UTC
by kalira
Gopher of Pern wrote:Why didn't you put me in the same camp as dimochka, Boomfrog, and Madge, when I had Sabrar at the top of my town list as well?

Simply that I missed it. I first noticed it in dim's list, so I wrote up the paragraph. But then I saw it in someone else's list as well, so I decided I was just going to start adding names to that paragraph as I found lists with SabrarV1.0 at the top. I must have missed it in your list, or I would've added your name, too. I just don't think people should give him that much benefit of the doubt on D1 -- he's too squirrelly for that.

Writing up stuff on D2, but since I'm seeing mpolo is not sure when he will end Day and I'm not sure of the exact time frame, I'm willing to

vote YOLOswag

based on my read of him D1 and his weirdness that I've read through on D2. I definitely see him as more scummy than GoP right now.

I originally had that bolded as an official vote, but then I realized that would put YOLO at L-1 and I don't want shenanigans to end Day early.

I will officially vote closer to Day end because I want to separate the wagon numbers a bit more than they are already. If YOLO switches his vote to GoP, that would put the wagons within 1 of each other, which is a little close for comfort esp if scum!YOLO's scummate(s) aren't already on GoP's wagon (also presuming GoP is not scum!YOLO's scummate, of course), or plus who knows what sort of voting shenanigans could be bandied about at Day end.

For the record, Sabrar, I disagree with you about "everyone needs to be on one of the two wagons." I understand you think scum can hide by avoiding them, but there could also just be town who just don't see what the wagoneers see. Also, the fact that there appear to be two scum factions makes wagon analysis a little funky anyway. If people are voting off the wagons for no explained/good reason, however, absolutely they should come back and explain their votes well and at least comment on the wagons for future analysis.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:44 pm UTC
by kalira
I conflated your two posts about voting on wagon. The second:

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Why is it important that everyone be on one of the two wagons?
Because wagons will get analyzed to death later and it is convenient for scum to stay away from them.

Suppose Madge doesn't make that follow-up post. She votes for SirGabriel but notes that YOLOSWAG would be second. Things accomplished if she's scum:
- has a vote down at the end of the day
- no need to fret that SirGabriel will flip Town as he is probably not getting lynched today
- avoids building up wagon on scum-buddy, hoping that events will turn the tide. Can change to counter-wagon later if needed.
- in case YOLOSWAG is Town attention won't be on her

Of course all of the above became null with the EBWOP.

In this situation, Madge appears to have done what you seem to be suggesting and commented on the wagon/said why she doesn't want to be on it, but in this second post, you say that's not enough.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 3:44 pm UTC
by kalira
LaserGuy wrote:And why do you think the roleblocker would be on the same team as the person with roleblock immunity?

I realize you asked this question to Sabrar and BF, but you're ignoring or not thinking about the setup.

From the OP (emphasis mine):
"The roles you have received are completely randomized, as are the powers. The groupings of factions were also completely randomized, though some powers were guaranteed to go with a certain faction. As a result, I have not provided "safe claims". Some powers may be duplicated, or be copied as a one-shot version of the same power."

Asking why certain powers would "go with" each other doesn't work in this game because the mod specifically told us that everything was randomized, and he also told us there were possible duplicate powers. "Some powers... guaranteed to go with a certain faction" I read more as powers like Strongman or Ninja, which can't be town, rather than situations like "roleblocker and roleblock-immune must be on different factions." You can argue balance, but it wouldn't be the first time on this board a team has randomly been assigned powers that in the end were useless. Of course, that presumes that YOLO's claim is true, which we don't know until he flips, because it is fairly difficult to "prove" RB (I'm tempted to say impossible simply because I can't think of a non-manipulatable[?] way to do it, but as soon as I do someone will think one up).

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:56 pm UTC
by kalira
LaserGuy seems to acknowledge Bard’s information about him but claims no information on his side about Bard. So, another one-sided info situation, which appears to be related to their Shakespearean character roles. If both Bard and LG are scum, I don’t think they are on opposing teams (else LG could have called out Bard and gotten one of his enemies destroyed) – unless of course that whole bit where scum!LG was flicking the lights for the other scum to work with his scumteam was actually a thing. LaserGuy, what are your thoughts on Bard without taking in mind that he is defending you? Your initial reaction to SDK’s reveal of his one-sided info was “I find SDK's assertion of bessie to be town to be most alarming, as it will require some heroic effort to keep her alive if this claim is true.” You don’t seem terribly alarmed at Bard’s revealing yourself.

Later in D1 you say
I feel that there is virtually no circumstance under which Town!SDK would make such a statement about a confirmed townie at this point in the game. Were you in danger of the lynch, I can imagine him putting such a claim forward, but at this point in time, it only benefits scum to know that there is a confirmed townie in the game, and who that person is--doubly so if there are two scum teams in opposition to each other. This essentially, in my mind, puts SDK in the pool of scum/anti-town indies, or perhaps, at very best, a townie with an extremely scummy wincon, as he seemed to be suggesting. I suppose I must add that there is some non-trivial possibility that SDK simply invented this information, but in many respects I would consider this an even more anti-town play than revealing the truth. In any event, this disclosure does not paint SDK in a good light whatsoever.

Again, you don’t seem to have a similar reaction to Bard’s saying you shouldn’t be lynched – why? You weren’t in a runaway wagon for the lynch at the time he said that.

Possibly important: now that I think of it, Bard doesn’t actually say we shouldn’t lynch LG because he is town there; he just says he has “good reasons” not to lynch LG. He only later puts himself and LG in a “town bros” category together. Not sure if that is important or not, just wanted to note it.

Ninja'd by bessie: will read in a bit.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:25 pm UTC
by kalira
SDK wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:@YOLO: No one's going to hammer. SDK already voted :P

D'oh! :lol:

Have I missed something?

mpolo said he wasn't going to be on to close Day until 2-3 hours following original deadline. Given that we're at less than 2 hours left on the clock he provided YOLO, I'm guessing at this point we will be able to continue talking until that deadline, so, as promised

Vote YOLOswag

to hopefully prevent last minute shenanigans.

Unofficial votals with an hour and 35ish minutes remaining:
Gopher of Pern (3): SirGabriel, plytho, DGames | Bard
Sabrar (1): #HBC | YOLOSWAG
#HBC | YOLOSWAG (6): Sabrar, BoomFrog, SDK, Gopher of Pern, Madge, kalira
LaserGuy (1): bessie
bessie (1): LaserGuy

Including the autochange of vote for LaserGuy.

7 is hammer, but mpolo said we should act as normal unless we overhammer with like 9-10 votes. Presuming that means votes may change or are different in the background.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:49 pm UTC
by kalira
SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I think BoomFrog is referring to last game where SDK accidentally hammered Carlington on D2.

And then again on YOLOSWAG Day 3. Though that was no accident. :twisted:

Ah, thank you for context. I read last game, but did not recall that.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act II is going to need some adjustments

Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:52 pm UTC
by kalira
EBWOP: So what you're saying is, it's SDK's fault we got a game with such convoluted voting. Total FoS.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act III opens in chaos

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:17 pm UTC
by kalira
Sabrar wrote:@SDK: full claim please.

SirGabriel wrote:What does everyone think about doing a mass claim today? At the very least, I would like Bard and SDK to claim, as they're the two who claimed to have info about other players in their PM.

Mass claim usually doesn't go well for town, but I'm willing to consider it. So I'm confused. SDK claimed the way his role interacts with bessie makes her highly likely town, but unless I'm mistaken, bessie didn't confirm she knew the same abt SDK? Or was that all just smokescreen for them being masons together? I don't necessarily want SDK to full claim right now, but I *do* want him to tell us if he was bessie's mason partner.

I'd like Bard to claim before SDK.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act III opens in chaos

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 4:08 pm UTC
by kalira
plytho wrote:While Madge was pinging me left and right, kalira doesn't at all. This is the first time I'm in a game with kalira so she might just have a solid townie meta and I'm missing scum tells but in that case I assume others would have picked up on those.

I never have solid townie meta. Just for reference. My meta (to my mind) is "I'm like bessie but more people are suspicious of me." Don't let that stop you from trying to figure me out though, lol.

plytho wrote:Actually, Bard did call LaserGuy town in that post.
So he did. Must have been skimming past it too quickly. I'll withdraw my speculation on that then, which is okay because I hadn't pondered anything out about it yet anyway.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Bard scum, Laserguy scum. Unlikely. But is a big blow to scum if Laserguy is lynched, if Bard is telling the truth.

Remember, though, that we're dealing with two scum factions. General question: given the randomization of the game, does anyone think it possible that mpolo would have allowed an unreciprocated lover relationship between scum of opposing factions? Scum on the same faction would be bad news bears from a modding standpoint as it could completely destabilize one faction, but if they're on opposing factions, it would be less of a game-destroying piece of setup.

Side question (meta): Are lovers here generally told the faction of their lover? I can't remember any games here that had that off the top of my head, but I could be misremembering (or just not knowing because it was in role PMs I didn't see).

I said this earlier:
If both Bard and LG are scum, I don’t think they are on opposing teams (else LG could have called out Bard and gotten one of his enemies destroyed) – unless of course that whole bit where scum!LG was flicking the lights for the other scum to work with his scumteam was actually a thing.
but to be honest, I'm not sure if I still agree with myself. If they are both scum and Bard is not lying about his unreciprocated loverhood, I don't know that they can be on the same scum team (destabilizing mentioned above).

DGames | Bard wrote:Hrmm, I haven't interacted with you much as of yet (actually not at all except for saying that I would consider compromising to your slot since it was pretty inactive via freezeblade). Who in your general opinion is scum/town at this point?

Yes, I remember. You called me "freezeblade's replacement." Slightly miffed I didn't deserve a name. As of beginning of D3, my best lead on scum is LaserGuy. I'm still picking my way through D3.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act III opens in chaos

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:50 pm UTC
by kalira
LaserGuy wrote:Kalira has been super lurky D3 for unexplained reasons. I don't like that she's basically at the point where she's going to always be a day behind in content at this rate, and I don't like that I still don't feel like I have anything to read off of her.

Okay, fair enough, I haven't been around D3 enough. But how am I a day behind in content? After I commented on all things D1, I was making real time commentary during D2, and what I have posted D3 is based on content from D3. Others have clearly found enough to comment on in my posts.

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:Still doesn’t make much sense to me. Losing a teammate is definitely worse than losing a power so I don’t understand how those priorities could work. I think the only way scum!Bard leaves townie!LaserGuy alive is if he also dies when you’re nightkilled. This is also the case for scum!Bard and rival scum!LaserGuy (which is likely the same from scum!Bard's perspective).
I'm not following you. Why shouldn't scum!Bard leave town!LaserGuy alive? I don't think we'll ever lynch LaserGuy before Bard so that risk is not applicable here. town!LaserGuy is inclined to defend him which is a big plus for him. Can you expand upon your reasoning here?

Okay, I want to touch on that theoretical. Why SHOULDN'T we lynch LaserGuy before Bard? Enough people are reading Bard as scum, and based on what I'm seeing D3, I would be inclined to agree. But people have also been seeing LaserGuy as scum also, which I very much agree with. If Bard is telling the truth about his unreciprocated lovers with LaserGuy, lynching Bard would either confirm LG's townie status (if town!Bard), or it would neither confirm nor deny LG's townie/scum status (if indie!Bard or scum-of-any-variety!Bard).

Town!Bard flip clearly gives us information about LG, but based on the fact that atm he has the most votes (I believe), obviously his townie status is in question. There are people voting for Bard believing he is scum, which means they think Bard is scum but are willing to get zero information about LG from that lynch. Based on the fact that LG's been a topic of conversation pretty much all game, scum!Bard flip would change nothing in that regard, so we would likely again be focused on LG D4, which could detract from further scumhunting.

Now consider the opposite, lynching LaserGuy instead. If Bard dies as well, we have then lynched two people that a large number of players have seen as scum at multiple times throughout the game, and we get information on both of them. If LaserGuy is town, yes we have mislynched him, but we don't have to focus on him again D4. And I have to believe that we have at least one mislynch built into the game (because if there is no way for town to win having mislynched even just once, setup is broken). I very much doubt that BOTH Bard and LG are town, so in my mind that would still net us a scum lynch. If both end up dying from the lynch and they both flip scum, then we've doubled our lynch power D3.

If on the other hand Bard DOESN'T die when we lynch LG, well, that tells us he's clearly scum anyway, and we can continue to scumhunt D4 without focusing on Bard because we know we'll lynch him by end of day anyway.

Someone tell me why we shouldn't lynch LG? Because from where I'm sitting, it just makes the most logical sense.

Re: Shakespeare Mafia III - Act III opens in chaos

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:15 pm UTC
by kalira
Gopher of Pern wrote:Kalira, did you not see the discussion yesterday re: bessie and SDK? That was my argument. However, it is different today:

We lynch Laserguy, Laserguy is scum, Bard is scum and is potentially dead as well (depending on if they were telling the truth.)
We lynch Bard, Bard is scum, we get little information about Laserguy.
We lynch Bard, Bard is town, we know Laserguy is town.
We lynch Laserguy, Laserguy is town, if Bard is town as well, he dies, if Bard doesn't die, we know they are scum.

Much bigger risk. If Bard is town, lynching Laserguy will net us 2 dead townies, with another 2 possible during the night due to night kills, will leave us with 6 people, with a probably 3 scum. We would be in a losing position.

Bards last couple of posts really don't endear me to them. Seems very similar to what YOLO pulled.

I get that -- if they re both town, it's a very bad move for us. However, I don't think both of them are town. I feel like this situation is somewhat different from bessie and SDK's because more people have been reading Bard and LG as scum. I can see I'm not going to make headway on that though.

I will take some time alone this Night and reread to see if I change my mind on LG, or if I get any better ideas on who might be scum. Need to make sure I'm not tunneling. Don't think I'm wrong that at least one of the two is scum, though. Yeah, for today, I still see Bard being scum, so we shall

Vote Bard