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BoomFrog
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:08 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Agree with this:
Really?
Evil George Washington wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:I doubt Spak or Gamma are scum

This sounds like he slipped about Spak's alignment here. He doesn't seem to remember his read on Spak, he clarifies with this:

BoomFrog wrote:@Zen: To clarify. I think Spack is more likely scum then gamma. I've read gammas claim and blow up and they feel townie. Why would lyncher claim so blatantly?

But I've likely missed key info, so in a few sentences can you convince me why I should switch?
Totally different phrasing then 'I doubt spak or gamm are scum'. I would understand if he typo'd with one word, but this is more than one word. You have to ask yourself why he would even think of doubting his spak read if he is voting there. I think it's because he really doesn't believe it.

It wasn't a typo or a mistake. Spak seemed unlikely to be town. He was an easy target and total lynch bait, and you said Zen had had a change of heart on Spak. So odds were Spak was town. At the time I was annoyed that you guys let things get that far, lynching FrozenFlame or JimBob would have been a lot better use of the lynch. Yes, I was still voting Spak at that time, but I didn't want to change my vote while I was still catching up. At the time this all went down I was ten pages behind the thread. N2 when I finished reading the thread I could see how it all happened.

EGW wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:You really think Spack is faking it? There's so many people I'd rather lynch. Sigh... we need the flip. I'm going hammer in few minutes unless I hear a good reason not to.

P edit. Fine.

Vote Spak
This sounds like a weak justification to switch wagons.
The choices were lynch Spack or No lynch. Gamma was dead already, he was hugging a bomb. There is no way that you are not aware of the context here, so wtf?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:10 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Boomfrog, readslist.

Motherfucker, I'll get to it when I can, but for some reason each day starts with me having to defend myself against a wall of out of context quotes. You really have a way with people.
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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:29 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:It wasn't a typo or a mistake. Spak seemed unlikely to be town. He was an easy target and total lynch bait, and you said Zen had had a change of heart on Spak. So odds were Spak was town. At the time I was annoyed that you guys let things get that far, lynching FrozenFlame or JimBob would have been a lot better use of the lynch. Yes, I was still voting Spak at that time, but I didn't want to change my vote while I was still catching up. At the time this all went down I was ten pages behind the thread. N2 when I finished reading the thread I could see how it all happened.


Can you explain why would you say 'I doubt Spak or Gamma are scum' by accident? Can you show me your thought process when posting that post?

BoomFrog wrote:The choices were lynch Spack or No lynch. Gamma was dead already, he was hugging a bomb. There is no way that you are not aware of the context here, so wtf?


I'm aware of that. I'm talking about the words you used to justify switching, though. That's what is concerning here. It is already implied when switching that it is being done to avoid a no lynch.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:34 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Motherfucker, I'll get to it when I can, but for some reason each day starts with me having to defend myself against a wall of out of context quotes. You really have a way with people.


Don't insult me. Your pushes are lack luster, and I want to know your thoughts on the whole cast this day phase.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:39 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:However, he [MPOLO] earned townie points from me and since my opinion is the most important thing in the game it was a good choice overall. Actually, typing this out I'm leaving more town then Indy on him.


I was reminded of this thanks to Jim. I find the underlined in being a cop out justification. "Since my opinion is the most important thing" sounds silly. It doesn't actually justify why giving MPOLO (who he denoted as not mafia) town points so early was a good choice overall.

This wasn't a defense of my actions it was a joking "defense" of why mpolo was strategically correct to claim. To be clear, I think his actual ideal action would have been to claim "I withheld N0". That would give the necessarily clarity on his flip but not reveal anything extra. However, I think he was coming from a townie place of wanting to clear up possible confusion in the case of his death. So overall, his claim was a townie thing to do.

EGW wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:5) You didn't say this, but I dragged my heels at the end of D1 to change over from Red to Moody. I was concerned that you [EGW] were leading me to lynch a bad looking townie and saved your scum buddy Red. Then Moody had his terrible updated read list and offered to basically vote anyone besides himself and showed a complete lack of scumhunting. Actually, you trying to switch from moody to Spak or Red made me feel better about staying on moody.


I find this to be a cop out answer for why he dragged his heels, even though I never brought that up. It would make more sense if he had progression on me, and if he had asked me why I was pushing Moody. He asked me why I was going for Moody over Red Ryu, but I gave my answer, that he was my scum read. He never followed up from there. I find this to be a slight omgus, and I don't find it to be sincere.
I don't know what your expectation is about "showing progression" but I don't like to reveal all my thoughts in thread. In this case I wouldn't know if you were leading me until after Moody's flip. If I voiced my suspicions in thread then moody flips town then you could kill me N1 and I wouldn't have a chance to go after you for it.

EGW wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:
plytho wrote:[NinEdit: there seems to be some discussion between Zen and EGW concerning how big a role BoomFrog played in the moody lynch. He voted early and made a case against moody. This does not at all feel like a bus.]


This is simplifying the matter. He voted without a case and took a long while before answering to Zen about his meta 'scum tell' on him. Others (like myself and Sabrar) voted him first, and there was plenty of support [Heuaristically_Alone, Sabrar, Maven] for Moody in thread before he got around to it. He didn't interact with Moody nor question him. (iicr) I'm not feeling the '70% confidence' statement from him either. I don't know what your idea of bus is [Please tell me], but here is what it seems like to me. Boom's response feels like a lazy push that puts Moody at a hands distance, and finally gets around to committing [while withholding his case for a while] closer to deadline. I appreciate you going into the read though.


I still think this is the case with Boom D1. I don't understand why some people don't see that it is a bus as it has effectively given him town credit, while not doing too much with Moody himself. He had no real progression. Plytho states his reasoning wasn't convincing either.
I didn't have any progression, I had no read of moody, he was null, as he almost always is, and then he posted his terrible second read list. I don't know how you can read my push as lazy though. I purposely didn't justify it, but I made it clear that I was committed to lynching Moody D1 at that point.

EGW wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Regarding Bessie: I'm suprised that she didn't pick up on the mpolo thing. She noted it, but she didn't feel it odd that mpolo's "data was lost". I'm leaning slightly scum which makes me sad. :(


I find this suspect because he originally was waiting for Bessie so he could give his reason for voting Moody. He voted Moody stating he wouldn't give his details until Bessie posted or I asked nicely for it. I find this to be an odd quip as if scumreading her for not being able to give him content he could use in his own reasoning afterword.

BoomFrog wrote:My vote on Moody wasn't lazy, it was calculated. I wanted to get Bessie's read on Moody before I justified mine so I could use that chance to judge her.


I find this reasoning to being a total cop out too. I don't believe this. Why would he judge her while considering that the scum tell on Moody was his as he has said? (and not something Bessie should have seen otherwise he would have stated it)
At the time, I thought Bessie should see it. My hoped for outcome was, Bessie sees what I saw, confirms it and I can confirm that Bessie wasn't on Moody's team. The result that she didn't see it was disappointing, and increased the odds that she was scum. I wasn't fishing for justification. I wouldn't have said I was %70 on Moody if I didn't have a reason. There are some things that Zen and I differ on. :roll:

EGW wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
Spak wrote:To be honest, my role being cleared as town should make an interesting D3 if you look at how haphazard my wagon was. Hopefully you guys will be able to find scum in the mess that was the end of this phase.

You probably paid the most attention to how it formed. Who was the most optimistic about jumping on it? Who didn't care between you and Gamma but pushed both?


I think the underlined is disingenuous. He already has a target in his mind, he knows who swung the wagon. [Me] So why is he asking Spak as if he doesn't know? What's his purpose? I don't like how he phrased this question.
I didn't have any target in mind, I was ten pages behind the thread, and I had a confirmed townie who could catch me up on what I missed, or point out interesting things as I read up. And I don't find you suspicious for swinging the wagon, I actually find all the non-committal people the most suspicious. Specifically, JimBob who and probably FF and Red. Mpolo and Bessie get reduced suspicion because mpolo barely keeps up with regular speed games, and Bessie is also clearly in the "out of sync with the thread" club.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:41 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Motherfucker, I'll get to it when I can, but for some reason each day starts with me having to defend myself against a wall of out of context quotes. You really have a way with people.


Don't insult me. Your pushes are lack luster, and I want to know your thoughts on the whole cast this day phase.

I have no problem with your request. I am annoyed by the demanding way you made it. Also, I would provide a reads list unprompted once I have sufficient time regardless of your request. I almost never swear at people, you really should think about how you ask people for things.
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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:45 am UTC

Fine, please get to it when you can. I'm going to sleep, I'll respond tomorrow.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:51 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:It wasn't a typo or a mistake. Spak seemed unlikely to be town. He was an easy target and total lynch bait, and you said Zen had had a change of heart on Spak. So odds were Spak was town. At the time I was annoyed that you guys let things get that far, lynching FrozenFlame or JimBob would have been a lot better use of the lynch. Yes, I was still voting Spak at that time, but I didn't want to change my vote while I was still catching up. At the time this all went down I was ten pages behind the thread. N2 when I finished reading the thread I could see how it all happened.


Can you explain why would you say 'I doubt Spak or Gamma are scum' by accident? Can you show me your thought process when posting that post?[/quote[It wasn't an accident. I communicated my thoughts correctly. I did not think Spak or Gamma were scum.

Oh, I see. Sorry I mistype my above reply. I meant to say, "Spak seemed unlikely to be scum." In my recent post.

BoomFrog wrote:The choices were lynch Spack or No lynch. Gamma was dead already, he was hugging a bomb. There is no way that you are not aware of the context here, so wtf?


I'm aware of that. I'm talking about the words you used to justify switching, though. That's what is concerning here. It is already implied when switching that it is being done to avoid a no lynch.
Okay fair. Read into my wording as you will I guess. I was seriously considering No Lynch though. The self hammer seemed sincere. If Zen had supported me I'd have done it, but being ten pages behind the thread I couldn't justify going rogue like that.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:53 am UTC

Fixed quotes:
Evil George Washington wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:It wasn't a typo or a mistake. Spak seemed unlikely to be town. He was an easy target and total lynch bait, and you said Zen had had a change of heart on Spak. So odds were Spak was town. At the time I was annoyed that you guys let things get that far, lynching FrozenFlame or JimBob would have been a lot better use of the lynch. Yes, I was still voting Spak at that time, but I didn't want to change my vote while I was still catching up. At the time this all went down I was ten pages behind the thread. N2 when I finished reading the thread I could see how it all happened.


Can you explain why would you say 'I doubt Spak or Gamma are scum' by accident? Can you show me your thought process when posting that post?
It wasn't an accident. I communicated my thoughts correctly. I did not think Spak or Gamma were scum.

Oh, I see. Sorry I mistype my above reply. I meant to say, "Spak seemed unlikely to be scum." In my recent post.

EGW wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:The choices were lynch Spack or No lynch. Gamma was dead already, he was hugging a bomb. There is no way that you are not aware of the context here, so wtf?


I'm aware of that. I'm talking about the words you used to justify switching, though. That's what is concerning here. It is already implied when switching that it is being done to avoid a no lynch.
Okay fair. Read into my wording as you will I guess. I was seriously considering No Lynch though. The self hammer seemed sincere. If Zen had supported me I'd have done it, but being ten pages behind the thread I couldn't justify going rogue like that.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:55 am UTC

Your questions are reasonable. Sorry I swore at you.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:26 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:So you're saying because I didn't mention the "that you think are mafia" part? Why do you think it was important for me to mention this? It doesn't change anything about my role.
Because it obviously was important to me? Why would you not clarify it once it became clear that I have an issue with your claim?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:36 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:So you're saying because I didn't mention the "that you think are mafia" part? Why do you think it was important for me to mention this? It doesn't change anything about my role.
Because it obviously was important to me? Why would you not clarify it once it became clear that I have an issue with your claim?
I honestly had no idea that's what you were referring to. I don't see the relevance, so I didn't pick up on what you were trying to get at. My apologies.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Madge » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:48 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:So you confused 'Glados is stated to kill NKer or Hammer' from your own role, and expected Sabrar to know that from your own PM? :?:


I thought that glados kills NK or hammerer was what was stated inthread, but I was mistaken and it was vague in thread but my role PM gave me a more complete picture. Because I didn't triple check the thread I assumed that the complete picture had been posted on thread when it hadn't.

Also, where is your D3 vote analysis? Also, what's your read on Sabrar?


Not going to do a D3 vote analysis yet or maybe at all. My read on Sabrar is that he hasn't made a claim that could contradict anything, but he could be defending me because he's scum wanting townie points for defending a (basically useless) townie. Neutral/townie.

I realise I have a huge bias that the "new" players are scummier than the ones I'm familiar with and I'm pretty sure that's due to playstyle difference so I am extremely fearful of trusting my reads on that basis.

======
TABLE OF CLAIMS:
Madge: Some weird half-jester (is given powers if she is half-lynched; tree stumps if she hammers a lynch)
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:08 am UTC

So I'm trying out comparing to previous games. Read through the first 10 pages of Dark Tower. There are some notable differences in play from a few players here. I tried to remain as ignorant as possible of each player's alignment before finishing, in order to avoid confirmation and belief bias. (Though, I was already aware of jimbob's).

Laser. Laser's play is the most different to me. He was much more sure and confident in DT. His posts were well thought out and articulate. In this game, his thoughts and pushes shift around. Based on the play difference, I thought dt_Laser was town. I was pretty shocked to see it was the opposite.

bessie. bessie's play is what next caught my eye. In DT she did much more scum hunting. She was more inquisitive and made many more points against people. This is exactly what I felt she was lacking here. Like she hasn't actually been trying to develop reads. bessie was town in DT.

jimbob. jimbob was much more in the dirt in DT. And his play style came off as more loose/jokey. He also made a point to defend against his actions. Quite different from here. jimbob was mafia in DT.

mpolo. mpolo was also more involved. That's not saying much though due to the difference in content size between the two games. He was more involved with strategy/role talk than he is here. In DT he was forthcoming with his opinions, but here he is basically just going along with consensus. mpolo was indy in DT.

--

There wasn't enough of plytho to really do a comparison. Boom's play there just reaffirms my read here. It seems we really do just have uncannily similar thought patterns and he's not just puppeteering me.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:30 am UTC

Bessie: You noted Day 1 that you had Myself, Jim, Zen, and Sabrar in the interesting list. Day 1, you never got around to this for Zen and Sabrar. Can you explain what those [interesting things] were, and why they were interesting to you? Also, you stated my case on Boomfrog D2 re-inforced your N1 pings, but you never factored that into your read of Boom D2. What exactly pinged from Boomfrog N1, and why didn't you bring it up D2? Can you go into your reasoning for D1 Zen town?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:52 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:You keep saying this, but you've yet to show how. Why do you presume to know what goes on inside my head?
LOL. I do not presume anything. It's you who is doing it constantly. Example:
laser is being so manipulative! his play is centered around appealing to ppl to get them to do things. his sudden tr of me was just because he saw buddy opportunity there. since i didn't react negatively to his case and town read him, he dropped it and tried to use me for other pushes. first with Frozen. he thought i would join but didn't and no one else but gamma did. when he couldn't get that he went for plytho and tried to get me and boom to join. but that failed too and now that he sees that he can't actually use me, he has started to reverse his read haha.
This whole paragraph is written as you being able to tell what LaserGuy's motivations are. You're not actually analyzing his content, you start from the idea that he's scum and explain how the narrative flows if that happens to be true.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:56 am UTC

Now quote where I'm doing that, Sabrar, and explain why it's narrow minded. What am I not considering?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:05 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I think the underlined is disingenuous. He already has a target in his mind, he knows who swung the wagon. [Me] So why is he asking Spak as if he doesn't know? What's his purpose? I don't like how he phrased this question.
You presume to know his mind and fit it into your narrative. You clarified your point here and I see the merit in it but I'm not convinced.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:15 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:woof
Ah I see. So essentially what you're saying is that you presume to know what goes on inside my mind. Got it.

What do you think about Madge preferring to be lynched instead of hammering?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:16 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why a strong town read on gamma is scummy.
Really? It's not self-evident? Ok, let's break it down.
- Consensus finds Gamma scummy and is right about it.
- Mafia knows that Gamma is not one of them so from their pov he is likely Town.
- Gamma is very likely going to get lynched.
- Therefore Mafia can earn townie-credit by uselessly defending him despite his scummy content and going after the wagon-pushers after Gamma's flip.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why defending zen is scummy.
Because you're scum.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain what was unreasonable about voting gamma.
BoomFrog had a strong town read on Gamma. Then he does a 180 and votes him because of a single point, namely Gamma not wanting to be the hammerer on Judgement which I can totally relate to.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:17 am UTC

EBWOP

@Zen: very much don't appreciate your style.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:25 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:What do you think about Madge preferring to be lynched instead of hammering?


I'm interested in the answer to this question as well.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:27 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:You presume to know his mind and fit it into your narrative. You clarified your point here and I see the merit in it but I'm not convinced.


Fair enough. He clarified that he was not thinking that, so I jumped to the wrong conclusion, so I will drop that point.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:27 am UTC

Why should I answer it when Zen is just misinterpreting what's been said?
Madge wrote:I would ask to be mislynched instead (because face it, it's probably the ONLY WAY people will believe I'm town), except for the obvious fact that my mislynch would prevent a possible scum lynch.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby mpolo » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:42 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:What do you think about Madge preferring to be lynched instead of hammering?


I'm interested in the answer to this question as well.


I think it's pretty clear that Madge is town. Because of her play style, an existence as a tree stump would be far worse than death -- can only discuss, not vote or use powers, and she feels very uncertain of her reads, so discussion is not always "fun" for her.

And honestly, the "let's test this" mentality on something where "testing" means essentially removing the person from the game irrevocably seems to be pretty short-sighted. If you prove that Madge was telling the truth, you make her useless. If you prove that she was lying, you waste a day on someone who is unlikely to be scum.

Although I suppose you could argue that the nature of Madge's power would be much easier to use as scum, since scum slips are bound to get you some votes here and there. But that's not the argument that's being made here -- I don't see anyone making an argument that she must be scum, just that "gee, wouldn't it be fun to essentially remove a player".

@Madge: I have also claimed. (Town bus driver)
Image <-- Evil experiment

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:44 am UTC

mpolo wrote:I think it's pretty clear that Madge is town,


Why? Also, why did you answer the question when it wasn't meant for you?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:45 am UTC

Also Jim has asked you a question, MPOLO. I'd like to see your answer to that.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:50 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laser. Laser's play is the most different to me. He was much more sure and confident in DT. His posts were well thought out and articulate. In this game, his thoughts and pushes shift around. Based on the play difference, I thought dt_Laser was town. I was pretty shocked to see it was the opposite.


How does this affect your read on Laser? What do you think of the shifting around?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:52 am UTC

@EGW: since you're so keen that others answer questions maybe you could the same? LaserGuy asked why you have Zen as null. I even reminded you of it.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:55 am UTC

I still have questions to Laser that he has yet to answer, and has has plenty of time to answer. Once he responds to me, I'll answer him. Why have you not prodded him to explain his read on Zen, which he has yet to explain.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:56 am UTC

@Zen, EGW, and anybody else supporting the tree stump Madge thing (BoomFrog?):
1) What's the scum motivation for claiming tree stump?
2) What do you think about Madge's volunteering to be the Amrock hammer?
3) Do you think Madge is scum or actively harmful indie?
4) In the hopefully unlikely event (given your desire to tree stump her) you consider Madge Town, why is tree stumping her a good idea?

Still not seen any sign of FrozenFlame or yolinda, and barely any of Red Ryu. Not cool given that all three are in my lynchable pile.
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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:59 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I still have questions to Laser that he has yet to answer, and has has plenty of time to answer. Once he responds to me, I'll answer him.
You really think that's how it works?

Evil George Washington wrote:Why have you not prodded him to explain his read on Zen, which he has yet to explain.
Why would it be my job to prod him? You have way more time than me to keep track of it if you want to.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:07 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
I want you to outline why you town read Zen.


Honestly, I'm baffled that you haven't reached the same conclusion.


LaserGuy wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:Zen is null, I'm currently re-evaluating him right now.


How is Zen null? You were putting him as scum here and were prepared to vote him at the end of D2. What changed between then and now?

I'll try to post a more satisfactory answer about my read on Zen in a little while.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:10 am UTC

@EGW: since you insist on doing this. Why do you have Zen as null?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:13 am UTC

Two times he avoids answering. Yet I'll answer. I'm had him as null because I feel I may have been wrong on Zen. I think I really did frustrate him with my questioning, and there were times I didn't get to his responses, so I can understand feeling like I was ignoring him like he was second class citiZEN. I liked his comment about my in EOD. It made me realize that he may have just been on the defensive due to the Moody lynch. I didn't consider that. I was also miffed how he called my case on Boom bullshit. I'm also starting to like his scumhunting and questions today, they actually seem reasonable. For example, his question to you.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:13 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@EGW: since you insist on doing this. Why do you have Zen as null?


I was in the process of typing it up. Now you answer Zen's question.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:16 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Now you answer Zen's question.
WTF? The question makes no sense as it's based on false premise as I showed via quote. What do you want from me here?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:19 am UTC

Her saying that is null, we don't know her alignment. His question is fine. Answer.

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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:24 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:You keep saying this, but you've yet to show how. Why do you presume to know what goes on inside my head?
you start from the idea that he's scum and explain how the narrative flows if that happens to be true.
The narrative thing is simply a way of going about the game. It's similar to the way the court system works in America. There's a prosecution and defense. It's not the job of the prosecutor to be objective. It's their job to present their narrative. It's the job of the defense to refute that narrative and present their own. This is how I work on a micro scale. If I have a suspicion for why someone is doing something, I present that narrative. That person can then defend against it and either prove me wrong or amplify my suspicion. If proven wrong, I move on. On the macro scale, however, I'm certainly not of this tunnel mindset. I very much am analyzing and trying to be objective (though not always successfully :mrgreen: ). I think this is shown by fact that my opinions and reads change and by how willing I am to drop a point or concede to a counterpoint. Take a look at my approach to plytho for example. He constantly does things that ping me and I push him on them, but most of the time he has come up with very reasonable explanations and I've conceded to them. My approach to bessie is similar. If you look at any one post in isolation, the micro scale, yes it will look as if I am not being objective. But if you look at them as a whole, you'll see that I am weighing the different perspectives and just trying to get a handle on things like anyone else. I feel like you just keep getting caught up in how I pursue my suspicious and not really looking at the overall shape of my play.

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why a strong town read on gamma is scummy.
Really? It's not self-evident? Ok, let's break it down.
- Consensus finds Gamma scummy and is right about it.
- Mafia knows that Gamma is not one of them so from their pov he is likely Town.
- Gamma is very likely going to get lynched.
- Therefore Mafia can earn townie-credit by uselessly defending him despite his scummy content and going after the wagon-pushers after Gamma's flip.
But why is failure to be a part of consensus scummy? I would think this is just due to the nature of Boom's thought patterns. In DT he was also outside of consensus.

It seems to me that you're not considering the other possibility: He was just wrong and was too far behind to really adjust his read.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why defending zen is scummy.
Because you're scum.
This doesn't really answer the question though. It just moves it one step further. Why is defending scum scummy? I guess the obvious answer would be that it means we could be scum buddies? But why are you not considering that Boom is simply wrong? You said I was one of the most divisive players wrt reads. Do you think everyone with a town read on me is scummy? Or do you think there could be some other reason as to why they are reading me the way they are? Also, why do you not consider that you are simply wrong? It seems to me like you're jumping the gun here. Since I haven't flipped, I should be an unknown variable to you. But your point against Boom here is based on it. This isn't something that should be in an objective analysis.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain what was unreasonable about voting gamma.
BoomFrog had a strong town read on Gamma. Then he does a 180 and votes him because of a single point, namely Gamma not wanting to be the hammerer on Judgement which I can totally relate to.
You can relate to not willing to be the hammerer? If you were being scum read by most of the cast and it was very likely that you were going to remain a focal point, you would not have agreed to be the hammerer? It seems to me like most of us would in that case. I could be wrong though. I don't want to speak for everyone else. But Laser, Spak, Madge, and mpolo all offered to be the hammerer if it would benefit town. The lynch was between Spak and Gamma at that point. Spak was voting judgement and Gamma would not, so it was only logical for Boom to vote Gamma. Do you think that Boom should have stayed on Spak in this scenario?

Sabrar wrote:EBWOP

@Zen: very much don't appreciate your style.

I'm sorry to hear that. I have the exact opposite thought of you. I was pretty excited about playing with you from pretty early on (and still am :3). I'm not going to change my approach to the game, but I really am trying to incorporate methods/style that appeal to you with my recent posts (such as this one and my DT analysis) and I will continue to try to going forward.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:26 am UTC

Zen talk to me please.


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