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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:29 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Her saying that is null, we don't know her alignment.
So now you presume to know what's going inside Madge's head as well? And presume that Zen was thinking the same thing? Also by stating Zen's opinion as a fact you're implying that Madge's lying already so that's a loaded question if I ever saw one.
So if you want me to answer a question that clearly only exists in Zen's head my answer will be that Zen is scum and therefore her question is misleading.

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bessie
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby bessie » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:29 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote: Bessie: You noted Day 1 that you had Myself, Jim, Zen, and Sabrar in the interesting list. Day 1, you never got around to this for Zen and Sabrar. Can you explain what those [interesting things] were, and why they were interesting to you? Also, you stated my case on Boomfrog D2 re-inforced your N1 pings, but you never factored that into your read of Boom D2. What exactly pinged from Boomfrog N1, and why didn't you bring it up D2? Can you go into your reasoning for D1 Zen town?
I think you’re reading way too much into my sarcastic use of the word interesting. From the same post:
bessie wrote:Note: You’re all interesting to me! When playing mafia, I use the work “interesting” to indicate something that caught my interest or to indicate that I don’t think something you said is quite right! So being on my “interesting” list is not necessarily a good thing!
bessie wrote:Congratulations. The rest of you are on the “interesting” list. Will need considerably more time for these four
You four were the most time consuming reads, in that you had the most content and/or it was the most difficult content to analyze. Sabrar is a tough read for me. We have a history of disagreeing, and have had to apologize to each other for remarks made in the past (to be honest, this is my problem, as I am passive aggressive and rude and I have to apologize to someone in almost every game). Yesterday I referenced one of those “interesting things” in this post. It’s something where I can’t point to what is pinging me, but I haven’t moved it up to my discard pile. There was another post that I have in my “still pondering” section of my notes that I thought was by Sabrar, but I just checked the link so I could quote it and I had it labeled wrong, it’s by plytho. With Zen, the reason I never got back to him on D1 was time. You should know enough about my style by now. You've seen the type of reads and analysis I do. I’m not a good scum hunter, in that I’m not good at behavior or meta tell or gut instinct type reads. I do post by post analysis, picking out things that I find “interesting” and use those things to develop my questions, then I just start throwing pebbles at people and see where it goes, if something interesting happens I throw rocks next. I don’t have a very organized mind, so I can’t read twenty pages of content, ponder it as a whole, and then write down a read. And I’m not a good writer, and it amazes me how quickly some people can compose a post. It takes me hours. Without rereading Zen’s D1 content, all I can say is that I felt positive enough about it to lean town. Hmm, I just checked my spreadsheet, I have a column where I record my gut read right at the end of each day, and I have a scum lean on ten players (note: I avoid neutral reads because I feel it is a cop out). My main ping from BoomFrog has to do with the moody read, see here.

#HBC | Zyth wrote: Based on how little moody did to try and save himself, I doubt he and his team thought there was much hope in saving him. And it's likely that scum mostly consists of cautious players. You're forgetting that we did the prevote tally thing before we even started voting. Moody would have looked doomed to a cautious-playing scum team. It would have been too risky in their eyes to go out and try and push for someone else when in all likelihood moody was going to be the play. If they were pushing someone else when moody was lynched, their scummy arses would have been left out right in the open.
Some meta info on moody. He has a scummy meta (sorry moody nothing personal, you know I like playing with you). He has often been lynched early in the game for it. It’s a bit of a forum joke, kind of like my meta is (for the opposite reason). moody took a break from the game for a while, so you need to go back to older games to find examples, which I don’t have time to do right now. I think there were a couple games where I made a town read on him and “apologized” for it, saying I was sorry for disappointing him, and I would try harder the next day to find something scummy in his content. Anyway, moody has a scummy meta, it was quite possible that he would be lynched at some point in the game (even if he was town), so it is very possible that once his lynch started to gain some momentum he was bussed by his teammates (perhaps even at his suggestion). I’ve been wondering if anyone else that knows moody’s meta would bring this up, and they haven’t, I’m a bit suspicious as to why (so FOS BoomFrog, Madge, and mpolo, maybe Sabrar I need to think about whether or not Sabrar has played with moody enough to know this) .

#HBC | Zyth wrote:It's not a meta difference. Others (Laser et al.) have picked up on it as well. What I'm saying and what Ran was saying are different. Ran likes live interactions. That's what he wanted from you. I'm saying that you've done very little prodding and commenting of me and a few others (such as spak and jim and sabrar). It was as if you were waiting to commit to a read one way or the other. It didn't feel like this lack of commitment was coming from being unsure though, because you weren't actively trying to develop these reads through prodding and questioning. So I suspect that you either: (A) just didn't have the time to get into us as deeply as you wanted to, since there were so many players and so much to read; (B) were just waiting to see which way the wind blew before you committed a thorough read on these players; Or (C) were having trouble faking a read on us. Again, I feel like if it were the first case -- you not having enough time to do a deep analysis -- that you still would have been prodding and questioning us.
It’s (A). I have no way to convince you of this except to say that this is a much larger game than I am used to playing. I’ll also point out that the days are quite a bit shorter than what we normally have (the 5ish-day days were not the norm until recently). We usually have much longer days (1-2 weeks) and everyone was not expected to post every day, the acceptable minimum was one good post every 1-2 days.

#HBC | Zyth wrote: I honestly don't know what you find scummy about jim. I also don't think you've argued why plytho is scum rather than simply plytho.
What makes you think plytho is just being plytho? If you want to use meta, he’s acting more like he did in his scum games (though inconclusive, small sample size and his two most recent games were scum).

#HBC | Zyth wrote: I read over plytho in Fridge. You're either misreading this situation because of Fridge, or you're intentionally misconstruing it.
I will think about your suggestion that I am misreading this, as you (theoretically) have an impartial view on that game and I don’t.

#HBC | Zyth wrote: @bessie can you tell us more about PW's role? Did he target you n0 or n1? Did his ability target a player and if they were town they became a Mason with him? Or were you already Masons and he was a one-shot Cop. Or was he a one-shot Cop and a one-shot Masonizer?
Maybe after everyone posts. If Sabrar and Evil George Washington both ask me to.

#HBC | Zyth wrote: @bessie: jim, plytho, Laser scum amiright?
Thinking about it.

Sabrar wrote: I completely agree that she became lazy after I defended her but that doesn't influence my original read on her.
Has anyone ever told you that you are frustratingly stubborn? :P

plytho wrote: Well I was (and still kind of am) frustrated about you doubting my sincerity, implying I’m deliberately and happily riling you up while I’m very frustrated with the whole thing. I’m not deliberately trying to make your game miserable and I’m upset that you think that’s what I’m trying to do.
I don’t doubt your sincerity, I doubt your towniness, and I see some of your actions in this game as an attempt to distract me or discredit me. But seriously plytho, I hope you’re not taking anything that happens in this game personally, I’m not trying to upset you. And don’t worry about riling me up, you have nothing on the imbeciles at my work, who I am convinced secretly conspire to create ways to piss me off.

Evil George Washington wrote: I find this suspect because he originally was waiting for Bessie so he could give his reason for voting Moody. He voted Moody stating he wouldn't give his details until Bessie posted or I asked nicely for it. I find this to be an odd quip as if scumreading her for not being able to give him content he could use in his own reasoning afterword.
This is similar to my thoughts.

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:PW was pretty obvious with who he was going to target. It's possible MPOLO switched her around, I'm not ruling that out.
You're forgetting about the Mason part. There will be a counterclaim if someone else was talking to PW.
Interesting , Sabrar and Evil George Washington seem to have forgotten mpolo targeted someone else N1. Hmm, also noted by plytho here.

plytho wrote: A one shot communication cop seems like a weak power for this game. It also does not match with the stuff Peaceful Whale was claiming.
Your knowledge of the setup is noted.

Sabrar wrote: Too many egos flying around.
:lol:

plytho wrote: I keep mentioning it because you said I was “definitely not scum with moody” in one of your first reads lists. You’re right that my contribution to moody’s lynch wasn’t coming from a strong push to lynch moody. I was trying to counter Zen’s wagon on jimbob. I didn’t care which of moody, Gamma or Red Ryu would be lynched. I just really didn’t thrust Zen’s move. My vote for moody indicates that I had no problem voting for him.

It would be a very weird stance for me to take as scum on moody’s team. And one team is looking more and more likely.
Also noted. So your top priority in voting on D1 was saving jimbobmacdoodle, lynching scum was only incidental?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
bessie wrote:And since when do experienced players ask a cop to claim a town result?
Since the cop had already essentially claimed? If the cop had full-claimed, we would expect them to report every result they took, along with reasons for targeting each player and so on.
Disagree. Soft claiming and claiming are not the same thing, even if the soft claim was unintentionally obvious.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote: At what point there did I say that there was only one team? I was asking for your opinion on the setup, although I acknowledge that I was indirectly pointing out what most players have already stated, namely that they don't think moody and I could be buddies. I wanted to understand why you felt that I could be buddies with moody, if that was what you believed.
So you’re implying that since everyone says you’re not moody’s buddy, I’m the odd one for not following the pack?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Madge - She was too willing to hammer the bomb D2 (see this post). I don't see this coming from scum (jester, yes, scum, no). Now that I think about it, this point also makes me doubt my possible indie read of her, unless it's a win condition that can be achieved whilst being dead (which I doubt, because indie!Madge would surely be tied to her half-lynched ability/role/thing).
Where did anyone actually see Madge attempt to do some of these things she’s being given credit for doing? She conveniently wasn’t even around at the end of D2 until after the hammer fell.

Madge wrote:Why do people want me to hammer? Is it just to prove the tree stump thing? I would ask to be mislynched instead (because face it, it's probably the ONLY WAY people will believe I'm town), except for the obvious fact that my mislynch would prevent a possible scum lynch. Even so, you're still effectively mislynching me because you are all talking about how useless my reads/etc are, so why make me limp through the game as a powerless tree stump? I'll still do my best because I'm 55 pages in and I'll be damned if I let a grudge hurt town, but it's not like it's going to have 0 impact on my motivation levels, you know?
You don’t need to tree stump yourself to prove your towniness. You could like, scumhunt or something, instead of continuing to emphasize your worthlessness (because I know you’re not incapable of being brilliant).

BoomFrog wrote: Bessie is also clearly in the "out of sync with the thread" club.
I was hoping to improve on this today but I’m already behind, and I’ve been working on this post for more than two hours.

Madge wrote:Not going to do a D3 vote analysis yet or maybe at all. My read on Sabrar is that he hasn't made a claim that could contradict anything, but he could be defending me because he's scum wanting townie points for defending a (basically useless) townie. Neutral/townie.
:roll:

#HBC | Zyth wrote:bessie. bessie's play is what next caught my eye. In DT she did much more scum hunting. She was more inquisitive and made many more points against people. This is exactly what I felt she was lacking here. Like she hasn't actually been trying to develop reads. bessie was town in DT.
Read this post, and ask me if you have any specific concerns.

mpolo wrote:I think it's pretty clear that Madge is town. Because of her play style, an existence as a tree stump would be far worse than death -- can only discuss, not vote or use powers, and she feels very uncertain of her reads, so discussion is not always "fun" for her.

And honestly, the "let's test this" mentality on something where "testing" means essentially removing the person from the game irrevocably seems to be pretty short-sighted. If you prove that Madge was telling the truth, you make her useless. If you prove that she was lying, you waste a day on someone who is unlikely to be scum.
Agree with all of this, except the strong town read. I supported the tree stumping for the purpose of absorbing Amrock’s kill and saving a townie, if by doing so would still allow Madge to continue playing. But to take her out just because is wrong. If we feel she is scum we should lynch her, if we are not confident enough to lynch her we shouldn’t force her to tree stump.

And ninja'd again and again.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:31 am UTC

@Zen: what I didn't like was you abbreviating my content to 'woof' multiple times. It's demeaning. Your latest post is much better, thank you for the effort. Will reply a bit later.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:37 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:So now you presume to know what's going inside Madge's head as well? And presume that Zen was thinking the same thing? Also by stating Zen's opinion as a fact you're implying that Madge's lying already so that's a loaded question if I ever saw one.
So if you want me to answer a question that clearly only exists in Zen's head my answer will be that Zen is scum and therefore her question is misleading.


No? It's why I'm asking you, so I can have a better idea. Don't expect me to take it for granted. That's what you are asking me to do.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:40 am UTC

I don't even know what you want from me anymore. I don't think Madge would prefer to be lynched instead of tree-stumped and that's why I simply can't answer the original question.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:42 am UTC

Bessie, thank you for responding. I would like your answer to Zen's role related question.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:43 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:So if you want me to answer a question that clearly only exists in Zen's head my answer will be that Zen is scum and therefore her question is misleading.


What's your updated read of Zen today? Refresh me why you have Zen as scum.

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bessie
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby bessie » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:48 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Bessie, thank you for responding. I would like your answer to Zen's role related question.
Noted.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:50 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Zen, EGW, and anybody else supporting the tree stump Madge thing (BoomFrog?):
1) What's the scum motivation for claiming tree stump?
2) What do you think about Madge's volunteering to be the Amrock hammer?
3) Do you think Madge is scum or actively harmful indie?
4) In the hopefully unlikely event (given your desire to tree stump her) you consider Madge Town, why is tree stumping her a good idea?

Still not seen any sign of FrozenFlame or yolinda, and barely any of Red Ryu. Not cool given that all three are in my lynchable pile.


1. She offered to hammer SirG. When we started to consider that, she claimed tree stump to get out of it. (In case Sabrar asks, I'm not saying this is the definitively the case, I'm just giving you the scum moti you're asking for).
2. I think she most likely was bluffing. She seems to keep getting out of it whenever we start to actually consider her offer.
3. Indie (which I showed in my D1 reads list). Speculating on whether she is harmful indy or non-harmful indy is futile imo. We should just have her taker herself out with the actual lynch. It's the same two-birds-one-stone thing we did with gamma yesterday.

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:Now you answer Zen's question.
WTF? The question makes no sense as it's based on false premise as I showed via quote. What do you want from me here?
I'm really confused here. What is it that you think I'm misrepresenting? In the post you quoted, isn't Madge asking to be lynched instead of her hammering?

Evil George Washington wrote:Zen talk to me please.

What is it that you would like?

Sabrar wrote:@Zen: what I didn't like was you abbreviating my content to 'woof' multiple times. It's demeaning. Your latest post is much better, thank you for the effort. Will reply a bit later.
Oh! Sorry, I really didn't mean for it to be. That was just me quickly shortening the posts on mobile. Honestly, I keep forgetting that quotes on here don't link back to the actual post.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:53 am UTC

Oh yeah, you asked me about Laser somewhere but I can't find it. It challenges my read on him quite a bit. I need to reread him in iso.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:55 am UTC

Is there anything you'd like to ask of me or talk to me about? Yeah I would like to see your conclusion. Maybe look into MPOLO as well. I tried re-reading him and all I got was a straight null.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:09 am UTC

Jimbob:

1. Scum motivation would be using TREE STUMP as a reason to wait for ALMOST NO LYNCH to avoid voting Moody D1. (If she were scum)
2. I find it null.
3. I say I think it's possible she is indy. Agree she should just tree stump as she is a liability, since D1.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:13 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Sabrar wrote:@LaserGuy: you had me solidly Town here and almost neutral here without interacting with me in the slightest between the two. Why?


As I alluded to in my early commentary on you, I've found your behaviour in this game to be a bit passive, which doesn't really fit together with my picture of your play. I don't find much of your content particularly memorable or noteworthy, which again, doesn't really fit with what I expect of you. So I'm being fairly cautious with my read of you for the time being, though I don't think it is at all likely you are scum with moody, so as the probability of two scumteams decreases, you look townier to me over time. (Hopefully this answers EGW's ninja).


Sabrar, what's your conclusion from this? What do you think of him not factoring this into his reads D2? How does it affect your read on LaserGuy?

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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:18 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Two times he avoids answering. Yet I'll answer. I'm had him as null because I feel I may have been wrong on Zen. I think I really did frustrate him with my questioning, and there were times I didn't get to his responses, so I can understand feeling like I was ignoring him like he was second class citiZEN. I liked his comment about my in EOD. It made me realize that he may have just been on the defensive due to the Moody lynch. I didn't consider that. I was also miffed how he called my case on Boom bullshit. I'm also starting to like his scumhunting and questions today, they actually seem reasonable. For example, his question to you.


Well, then. One good deed deserves another.

My lack of detail on my read and subsequent responses on Zen were (mostly) bait. You, plytho and Sabrar were all reading Zen as scummy and you and Sabrar especially seemed to be angling for a push on him today. So I dangled a little something in front of you to see which of you would jump, and why. See who was worried that maybe I had an undisclosed night result or something that would blow their case open, maybe. See who might be coordinating and who might not be. You jumped; Sabrar was mildly curious; plytho completely ignored it. Much more useful data than just giving you a boring read.

I do have a townread on Zen. My read isn't particularly impressive. He has given lots of clues that point to his alignment. His play is clearly townie motivated. His reads, though infrequent, are consistent with my own (with the notable exception of me, but as I said, I don't see anything particularly scummy in that post). I've come to appreciate his contribution to the moody lynch, since without the jimbob wagon, scum probably could have got away with mindlessly bussing, boosting Madge, or posting "I'd vote for moody but I don't want to put him at L-1" type posts. Even with the jimbob wagon, we have enough people trying to use their middling contributions to the moody lynch as a shield against scummy play that it's hard to sort. He's pushing the right people for the right reasons, and asking the right kinds of questions. His push on Spak was obviously not a bus (or distancing, if you prefer), and this was apparent even before the flip. I still don't understand at all how you arrived at this conclusion, and don't like how evasive you've been about discussing it since.

As I said, my reasons for joining the Spak wagon were primarily pragmatic. I didn't like the Gamma wagon, and my preferred wagons weren't moving anywhere. After Zen read me as scum, I did a full iso on him to figure out why he was reading me this way, and reasoned my way to the conclusion that he was Town, whereupon I was reasonably happy jumping to Spak.

Btw, you still haven't answered my question here.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:23 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@EGW: Can you explain the logic behind asking this of Spak?


We needed his vote since deadline was approaching, and he was fine taking the bomb, so I expected he'd be fine voting himself.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:25 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:@EGW: Can you explain the logic behind asking this of Spak?


We needed his vote since deadline was approaching, and he was fine taking the bomb, so I expected he'd be fine voting himself.


And if he were scum, why would you expect him to be fine with either of those things?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:25 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:See who was worried that maybe I had an undisclosed night result or something that would blow their case open, maybe.


Why would I consider that? You already had used your judgement ability. PW flipped Mason-cop. Question for you: Have you considered you may be wrong on me? Any reads at this moment?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:28 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:@EGW: Can you explain the logic behind asking this of Spak?


We needed his vote since deadline was approaching, and he was fine taking the bomb, so I expected he'd be fine voting himself.


And if he were scum, why would you expect him to be fine with either of those things?


At the time, I thought he was trying to save Gamma, which was why I found Zen pushing gamma interesting at that time. I also thought Gamma was trying to save him in return.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:37 am UTC

I used to have a role similar to yours in Time Travellers Mafia. I was Captain Kirk, double voter. I could also give two names and have those two people be the only options for lynch. I never used it though. So that's why I never considered you to have an investigative result, alongside that ability. I feel you would have a weaker ability alongside that you haven't mentioned or used yet.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:39 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I mean, did you mention that in your reads D2? Just wondering if you ever gave progression on that D2, and if i missed it, maybe you could link me/quote?


LaserGuy, I want your answer to this.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:48 am UTC

Also, LaserGuy. Can you tell me how your play here is different from your DT play?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:56 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:After Zen read me as scum, I did a full iso on him to figure out why he was reading me this way, and reasoned my way to the conclusion that he was Town, whereupon I was reasonably happy jumping to Spak.


Yes but the ISO came after you dropping the Zen case and you stating you have been convinced he was town. When exactly did you do the ISO? When did you post your conclusion? Did you note that you ISO'd him?

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plytho
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:57 am UTC

Zen:
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
plytho wrote:Btw, this quote from Zen applies to Zen’s town read of Gamma as well.
No it doesn't. I never argued that gamma wasn't mafia because of his wagon, I argued that he wasn't mafia because of the way he was playing.
I’m referring to this quote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote: if gamma is not mafia, laser's reasoning here is classic mafia: get townie points for defending against the mislynch, then have an excuse to push everyone on the wagon. another multiple mislynch path. am i the only one that has gotten this vibe from the way laser has gone about this wagon?
Not the last part about the wagon, but the first part about getting townie points for defending against the mislynch and using that to push the next mislynch.
Except that doesn't make sense because I wasn't saying that people were scum pushing him. Laser was. I thought the push against him was perfectly acceptable and I never said otherwise. He just wasn't my personal choice. Laser was flat out setting up those pushing him.
You don’t have to explicitly say it before they’re lynched. You say they look townie beforehand and get townie points when they flip. That’s when you look at the wagon.
I haven't given any indication of doing this. You're jumping the gun quite a bit here. @sabrar why do you call out me assigning mindset to players when plytho has been doing it to me constantly.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:This really feels like something scumbudLaser would ask you to say in order to get the heat off him.
This makes no sense. How does this get heat off Laser?
You're trying to equate my play as being the same as Laser's, thus redirecting the point I made. Funnily enough, you're not suspicious of Laser for this. Despite the fact the he actually was setting up the wagoners as scum.


I’ll try to clarify my position here. This is a thought I had at night:
plytho wrote:I have the feeling that at least some of the people town reading Gamma were scum. Gamma was absolutely not acting townie. But scum has the inside knowledge that Gamma isn’t on their team. That means he looks townie to them. They know he isn’t scum and they think they can win townie points by accurately reading him as town. Too bad for them he flipped indie.
This was before I made my reads list. When I got to reading you I noticed you had written something similar about LaserGuy. I really enjoy it when I can use people's own words against them, so that’s what I did.

This thought I had: “some people town reading Gamma might be scum” is similar to my issue with the early SirG lynch plan pushers. It’s not a definite scum tell, but it’s kind of scum bait. It’s appealing for scum, so they might use this opportunity.

Here's why I'm assigning you a manipulative mindset:

-I liked your breakdown of the different types of scum players, you put yourself in the manipulative scum bracket.

-I also keep maven’s words in mind:
Maven89 wrote:Zynth: I have Zynth as wary town. I believe he's town, but I know Zynth, and nothing he has done so far (that I can tell) means he can't just be having a very successful scum game. Currently town. I'm only mentioning that he might be scum to let XKCD people know that he has a history of leading the town as scum in case we all die.

-You also said you like to put scum in unique positions. That’s a good way to catch them, but it’s also a good way for you to act unpredictably and become hard to read.

Because of these I’m staying on my toes around you. So I’m making a bigger effort to try and look for hidden motivations in your play.

Yes LaserGuy did something similar and did so in a more obvious way so “some people town reading Gamma might be scum” applies to him as well. But I’m relying on the town tell of him being a willing sacrifice on GLaDOS so I’m not digging into that.


bessie:
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote: Well I was (and still kind of am) frustrated about you doubting my sincerity, implying I’m deliberately and happily riling you up while I’m very frustrated with the whole thing. I’m not deliberately trying to make your game miserable and I’m upset that you think that’s what I’m trying to do.
I don’t doubt your sincerity, I doubt your towniness, and I see some of your actions in this game as an attempt to distract me or discredit me. But seriously plytho, I hope you’re not taking anything that happens in this game personally, I’m not trying to upset you. And don’t worry about riling me up, you have nothing on the imbeciles at my work, who I am convinced secretly conspire to create ways to piss me off.
I don’t think you’re trying to upset me, I got upset because I thought you thought I was trying to upset you :)

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote: A one shot communication cop seems like a weak power for this game. It also does not match with the stuff Peaceful Whale was claiming.
Your knowledge of the setup is noted.
I’m not claiming setup knowledge. Based on what’s been said about OS powers and the flips we had I have an estimate of what the range of powers is in this game. A one shot communication cop seems too weak. A daily extra lynch with built in protection seems too strong.

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote: I keep mentioning it because you said I was “definitely not scum with moody” in one of your first reads lists. You’re right that my contribution to moody’s lynch wasn’t coming from a strong push to lynch moody. I was trying to counter Zen’s wagon on jimbob. I didn’t care which of moody, Gamma or Red Ryu would be lynched. I just really didn’t thrust Zen’s move. My vote for moody indicates that I had no problem voting for him.

It would be a very weird stance for me to take as scum on moody’s team. And one team is looking more and more likely.
Also noted. So your top priority in voting on D1 was saving jimbobmacdoodle, lynching scum was only incidental?
You’re twisting my words here. Lynching scum was my top priority, Zen’s move on jimbob felt like it was going against that priority because it wasn’t targeting one of the three candidate wagons. I didn’t understand his move so I pushed against it.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:01 am UTC

Plytho, disregarding your read on Zen, what do you think of his play this phase?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:08 am UTC

Sabrar: Reminder that I have a question addressed to you above, if you missed it.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:17 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Plytho, disregarding your read on Zen, what do you think of his play this phase?

I don't really understand what you are asking?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:20 am UTC

I'm asking what you think of his play today. You seem to be basing your push on paranoia, and I want to see what you think of his actions today, which I feel are reasonable.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:00 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I'm asking what you think of his play today. You seem to be basing your push on paranoia, and I want to see what you think of his actions today, which I feel are reasonable.
You're right about the paranoia. And you're right about his play looking reasonable. I've mentioned before that I'm suspicious of him despite his reasonable play.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:06 am UTC

I'm not really pushing Zen btw. In my opening post I tried to separate my town reads from the rest and then tried to see what was suspicious about the rest.

These are the people that I don't have a town read on:
Yolinda, Red Ryu, FrozenFlame, mpolo, BoomFrog, Zen

The problem is that at this point I don't have a solid scum read on any of them. There's plenty of stuff that's suspicious, but there's also plenty of good stuff.

The first three have been lurking for 36 hours into D3 now (Red Ryu did nothing more than show up). But at least Red Ryu and Frozen made some decent posts before that.
The latter three have made reasonable posts, but nothing they did really screamed townie to me. Boom and Zen have done some suspicious things. mpolo seems to be playing quite passively and isn't sticking his neck out at all.

I've been mostly defensive so far D3, now I'm going to try and sort these 6.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:48 pm UTC

I'm going to do a re-read and post reads tonight after work. Get your top 4 ready.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:26 pm UTC

Well let's get reading.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:37 pm UTC

@Zen:
The narrative thing is simply a way of going about the game.
My issue with the above is that it is backwards. You start with "X is scum" and explain every action why it fits the narrative. I start from "X's action here is scummy" and if enough evidence exists conclude that "X is scum". To me your way of doing it feels not like actual scum-hunting because it's possible to make a similar case on everyone if you start with the assumption that they're scum.
That said if that's normal style then I'll keep that in mind when reevaluating you.

But why is failure to be a part of consensus scummy?
It's not scummy in itself, it's scummy-looking when consensus is proven to be right.

It seems to me that you're not considering the other possibility: He was just wrong and was too far behind to really adjust his read.
That is not the impression I got but I'll take another look.

Why is defending scum scummy? I guess the obvious answer would be that it means we could be scum buddies? But why are you not considering that Boom is simply wrong? You said I was one of the most divisive players wrt reads. Do you think everyone with a town read on me is scummy? Or do you think there could be some other reason as to why they are reading me the way they are? Also, why do you not consider that you are simply wrong? It seems to me like you're jumping the gun here. Since I haven't flipped, I should be an unknown variable to you. But your point against Boom here is based on it. This isn't something that should be in an objective analysis.
Players finding you townie according to my notes: bessie, BoomFrog, FrozenFlame. Clearly not all of them is scum (though 2 out of 3 wouldn't be bad) and I never said it was a sure scum-tell. It's one point of data among many that I will take into account when evaluating someone.
I have a history of second-guessing myself leading to wrong conclusions. I try not to do that and go with first instinct. Besides I'd never be able to form a solid opinion if I started doubting myself. Yes, obviously I could be wrong. No, it's not something I'm usually considering.

You can relate to not willing to be the hammerer? If you were being scum read by most of the cast and it was very likely that you were going to remain a focal point, you would not have agreed to be the hammerer?
Yes. Probably not. See why here (first paragraph in spoiler). You can take into account that I was scum in that game but that doesn't make it any less true.

The lynch was between Spak and Gamma at that point. Spak was voting judgement and Gamma would not, so it was only logical for Boom to vote Gamma. Do you think that Boom should have stayed on Spak in this scenario?
No, however his jump to Gamma was too quick, he didn't even try to consider any alternative explanation which contradicts his strong town read.

Oh! Sorry, I really didn't mean for it to be. That was just me quickly shortening the posts on mobile. Honestly, I keep forgetting that quotes on here don't link back to the actual post.
Ah. No problem then, glad we could sort it out.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:40 pm UTC

Accidentally deleted this part.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm really confused here. What is it that you think I'm misrepresenting? In the post you quoted, isn't Madge asking to be lynched instead of her hammering?
My understanding of that post is the opposite, Madge specifically does not want to be lynched because it prevents us from lynching actual scum.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:23 pm UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:What's your updated read of Zen today? Refresh me why you have Zen as scum.
I think she's clearly got the most connection to moody, I feel her scum-hunting is not helpful and she's just making cases to divert attention away from herself. I appreciate the effort she makes though and will re-read her (again).

Evil George Washington wrote:Sabrar, what's your conclusion from this? What do you think of him not factoring this into his reads D2? How does it affect your read on LaserGuy?
I think that bessie and LaserGuy are right when they bring up my reduced activity (and I'm wondering why jimbob stated the opposite here). As mentioned previously irl is a bit hindering me when it comes to post from work (which is normally where I can be most productive). Whether they should take this into account when reading me is not my place to decide though I'm finding myself in the same place that others mentioned, by the time I answer all the questions addressed to me I can barely get to do a proper re-read of anyone. That makes it significantly harder to stay proactive.
I don't think my read on LaserGuy would be affected by this, it is a reasonable concern.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:30 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@EGW - what do you think about LaserGuy's initial suggestion and then follow-through on acting backup for hammering Amrock, before Spak and Gamma had voted for Amrock?
Evil George Washington wrote:Since I think he tried to salvage his slot I feel he was willing to risk it if scum.
Double quote for context. Do you think he had to 'salvage' it? He replaced in a completely null spot (except for some people commenting on seeing DH on the forums and not posting). There were already a lot of accusations flying around, it wasn't like he had to start at the bottom of the list.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby mpolo » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:09 pm UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Also Jim has asked you a question, MPOLO. I'd like to see your answer to that.


I believe I answered that -- I thought Sabrar was town and was uncertain about jimbob, so I bussed them.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:17 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
Sabrar wrote:woof
Ah I see. So essentially what you're saying is that you presume to know what goes on inside my mind. Got it.

What do you think about Madge preferring to be lynched instead of hammering?

Wait what? Did I miss something in my thread time traveling? When did she say that? Out of context that's super suspicious and sounds like she's "jester who has to be lynched after D3 but everyone else loses if she does."
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:18 pm UTC

Request mod-prod on FrozenFlame and Yolinda

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:19 pm UTC

@BoomFrog: she never said that, Zen's just misinterpreting things.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:22 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain what was unreasonable about voting gamma.
BoomFrog had a strong town read on Gamma. Then he does a 180 and votes him because of a single point, namely Gamma not wanting to be the hammerer on Judgement which I can totally relate to.

A) The main motive was that I was ten pages behind and I trust Zen-in-the-present more then Boomfrog-in-the-past. That was almost enough to get me to switch them and there but I wanted to hear some justification.

B) Not be willing to hug the bomb when you are dying anyway is super scummy.

C) I was reading Spak as likely town so I didn't have a great alternative anyway.
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