Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - Endgame - Apocalypse

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby plytho » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

Town
LaserGuy
Madge
Wam
Peaceful Whale
FreezeBlade
Bessie

Vicarin: ‘has no idea when chat could be’
Somitomi: dismissal of PR
Sabrar: weird interaction with h_a + willingness t lynch vicarin while hard town reading him
Zen: moved down because after reading his case on vic is pretty weak
EGW: scum-favoring strategy
Heuristically_alone: weird response to Sabrar
Scum

At this point I’d be fine with the following double lynches:

Sabrar-EGW
Sabrar-Zen
Sabrar-Heuristically_alone
Vicarin-EGW
Vicarin-Zen
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

plytho wrote:At this point I’d be fine with the following double lynches:

Sabrar-EGW
Sabrar-Zen
Sabrar-Heuristically_alone
Vicarin-EGW
Vicarin-Zen
You should explain these because from where I stand some of them don't make any sense. What do you expect to gain from each specific pair?

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:49 pm UTC

You seem to be following my suggested strategy of lynching (town-scum) pairs but you have an issue with me doing the same?

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby bessie » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:53 pm UTC

Sorry I didn’t get back to this last night. Brief responses before work.

LaserGuy wrote:@bessie: What is your read on Zen?
I don’t like his interactions with Peaceful Whale. Or his reason for labeling PW as mega townie.

Zenii wrote: What do you mean by interesting, exactly?
I would have expected a little setup/strategy speculation from her in her initial post. Instead she just fumbles and immediately asks Sabrar for his opinion.

Zenii wrote:Someone should totally do us the honor of looking up a past Lights Out game to see what sort of stuff we should expect.
Here’s Suzaku’s pre game Gojoe post where he initially discusses his ideas for the game, and links to a previous Lights Out game (I don’t know if there is a more recent one, I don’t recall another Lights Out and I’ve been playing here for more than four years).

heuristically_alone wrote: Flavour shouldn't be what we base decisions off of.
Agree with this.

Vicarin wrote:It's not the primary determinant, but it helps narrow down some possibilities. If you want to work out how Suzaku justifies a Jester in this sort of setup, be my guest.
I don’t think there is a jester in this game, but I don’t agree that it’s for a flavor reason. I think you are being too focused on making the game fit the source flavor, and I’m almost ready to call this deliberate distraction.

wam wrote:@ Sabrar, do you normally read Zenii correctly?
wam, this is Zen’s second game on this forum. There was an issue with the forum registration last summer, and no one could register new accounts, or access their account if they changed the password. Zen had to use Zyth’s account to play Crossover, so Zyth’s previous games are a different player.

Sabrar wrote:For certain players (yours truly included) eagerness is a state-of-being.
:lol:

Sabrar wrote:Obvi-not-mafia. He currently doesn't have a chat-partner.
Noted, and interesting that you initially equated your read that he doesn’t have a chat partner with obvi-town.

Madge wrote:
Sabrar wrote:Instead of finding 2 possibly linked players, find a pair where at least 1 of them has to be scum and lynch both.

I suggest we start with Zen and Vicarin.


.... why is one of these two scum??? I coudl see that if two people were claiming the same PR but these are just people in an argument. I think townies tend to get into arguments more on D1 so I'm reluctant to vote for both people arguing.

Why are we voting Zenii? What's their crime?

.....
Madge, why don’t you read Zen and form your own read, instead of just following Sabrar.

LaserGuy wrote:I didn't think you were distancing. I noticed that you flashed your townie card earlier in the game and I wanted to see if bessie had noticed as well. I'm not sure I can trust this going forward now that EGW has revealed the Town wincon, but I'll take EGW as Town and trust that bessie can sort herself later.
The town win con is in the OP, under the Game Setup spoiler, which is identical to what EGW posted.
Suzaku wrote:The town win condition is "You win when all anti-UNE factions are eliminated and at least one member of the UNE is still alive".


Response to Evil George Washington re this post.
Evil George Washington wrote:1. On pre-game content not being allowed, then that is on the mod to moderate. I don't think it's alignment indactive. Unless you are going for 'oh scum wouldn't try to break the rules' kind of thing. Anyway, it doesn't seem like there were any rules for not having content in pre-game, so I will rule this out.
Maybe not a strict rule, but there is usually a mod statement like this:
Suzaku wrote:Questions may continue to be posted in thread along with confirmations, but please refrain from posting content until day start.


Evil George Washington wrote:2. On pre-game content not counting, that's no true. Content counts ever since everyone receives their role, not when they decide to start. Once they receive their role they are their role, they have become one with their role.

Yet from everything else you said, it seems like you do agree that pre-game content can be read and sorted to find alignment. I will tell you that Zen and Myself have scum hunted in pre-game multiple times and always start looking for scum at that time, because pre-game and early game is likely where they are comfortable. Attack them when they have their guard lowered. Problem with the early game we have in this game is that it allows some players to hide behind setup speculation. Also no need for proof-reading, I don't want to mess up your flow.
I think you misread my post. I’m arguing that everything posted in the game thread, including confirmation phase posts, absolutely counts as legitimate content.

Evil George Washington wrote:I'd like to know your reads on: [Sabrar, Zen, Plytho, and Laser] when you get the chance. Who would you vote at this moment and why?
Will try to have reads tonight. I’m currently not liking Peaceful Whale, Madge, or Vicarin, I need to think about Sabrar and Zen.

Peaceful Whale wrote:Hmmm.... I would like to know what Bessie thinks on that as well...
After you reply to this post.
bessie wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Regarding Zennii and Sabrar...
I think they’re both insane, I was sheeeeeeping Zennie for content. Namely seeing how Madge would react (more on this later).

It’s now later, I am interested in your “more on this”.


I need to leave for work, and my husband has a gig tonight so I might not be back until late.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:58 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:I’m working on a coherent pooooost,
Eagerly awaiting.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby heuristically_alone » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

I doubt I will have time to post any content until tomorrow. But I like the Zen - Vicarin lynch plan. If I were lynched as well and flipped town, would that make people more or less suspicious if Sabrar?
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby plytho » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:You seem to be following my suggested strategy of lynching (town-scum) pairs but you have an issue with me doing the same?
Not entirely the same. You're convinced vicarin is town, while I feel all of my targets have a higher than average likelihood of being scum.


Sabrar wrote:You should explain these because from where I stand some of them don't make any sense. What do you expect to gain from each specific pair?


Generally these are pairs from my bottom six that seem to be in conflict with each other. I don't have specific expectations from each pair. I just think these pairs are very likely to contain scum.

Sabrar-EGW
Sabrar-Zen
Sabrar-Heuristically_alone
Vicarin-EGW
Vicarin-Zen

And actually Evil George Washington should be below heuristically_alone on my list because

vote: Evil George Washington
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:40 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Not entirely the same. You're convinced vicarin is town, while I feel all of my targets have a higher than average likelihood of being scum.

I don't have specific expectations from each pair. I just think these pairs are very likely to contain scum.
Then you're being inconsistent. You list 6 possibly scum. I can potentially see an argument for not including somitomi in any of your pairs so let's disregard that for a moment. That still leaves 5 players, all of whom appear in at least 1 lynchable pair. If you do not have a specific agenda and just want to lynch scum then you would be fine with lynching any of the 2 and not just the 5 pairs (out of a possible 10) you listed. Why limit yourself to pairs who are in conflict? That's exactly what my strategy is about and yet you deny following it.
This is what doesn't make sense.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby plytho » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:55 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote: Why limit yourself to pairs who are in conflict? That's exactly what my strategy is about and yet you deny following it.
This is what doesn't make sense.
I'm not denying following your strategy, I'm saying it's (not entirely) the same.

You want to lynch a TvS pair and so do I. But I want a TvS pair where I'm not sure who's T and who's S. Whereas you seem to be fine with lynching a probable townie if you get to lynch probable scum along with them.

I think my variant has a higher chance of getting scum + an easier to sort town the day after.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:06 pm UTC

plytho wrote:You want to lynch a TvS pair and so do I. But I want a TvS pair where I'm not sure who's T and who's S.
Why would this make a difference? The intended end-result is the same, 1 town + 1 scum dead.

plytho wrote:+ an easier to sort town the day after.
Why do you think this would be the case?

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby freezeblade » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:14 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
freezeblade wrote:Disagree, as "masons" are not necessary of the same alignment. Such as in Chairman Maofia (I always bring this up, it's like I'm a broken record harping on it all the time. Mentioning it, I might as well get up on the soapbox now:

If you are a mason, the alignment of your partner is not necessarily that of your own.

Why did you post this? Last time I was masonized, I specifically asked if it was mason (confirmed town) chat or neighbor (non confirmed) chat. Every other time I was masons, it was mod confirmed. This is an odd post because I would expect a player to ask the mod if alignment confirmed/non-confirmed was not explicitly stated in the pm. plytho’s not a newbie, he knows this. freezeblade, how about posting some content analysis instead of opinions on the setup?


I posted this after a few games (chairman maofia being one) where people (not just newbies) assumed masons meant town aligned always, and this had a direct impact of how the game ended, I made it my mission to yell this at every opportunity so that it didn't happen again. In at least one of these cases, the mod was indeed asked, and the player was given a "no comment." This may not have been an issue recently, but it was last time I played regularly here.

As for content analysis, There hasn't been much of note really, this is D1. D1 sucks, because there is nothing concrete, just feelings, and possible "slips" by a player or so. Even those "slips" can possibly be misplaced jokes, which consequently players use as the sole reason for a bandwagon, often leading to a townie being lynched (someone quoted a 20% change of a scum lynch D1). This is why on D1 I am really only down for 1-2 lynches, hovering closer to 1. D1 is the day with the least information, and consequently the highest probability of a mis-lynch result.

A run-down of things I find interesting as I'm reading though:
Besse calling out PW's scummy meta as scummy. Where I agree on disliking PW's scummy meta style, like I'm one to judge though, having a nortoriously scummy meta stemming from a long scum-streak on these forums (I think it was around 6 games straight), leaving everything thinking my usual play style is scummy.

The mini-feud/discussion between EGW and Sabrar sounds quite a bit like a townie-townie D1 fight over strategy. I personally don't put much stock in strategy talk content being indicative of alignment, as scum are just as likely to suggest a "good" strategy to try and rack up some townie points (I've seen this done on the scum side plenty).

I see loads of people saying that they think Sabrar is scummy (EGW, Laserguy, PW [calls them crazy], plytho [implies he may later in D1], wam, Zenii [says will vote for Sabrar if Vic does]), but only wam seems to be voting for them. I think this smells a bit funny, and stinks of possible distancing.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby plytho » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:30 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:You want to lynch a TvS pair and so do I. But I want a TvS pair where I'm not sure who's T and who's S.
Why would this make a difference? The intended end-result is the same, 1 town + 1 scum dead.
The intended end result is the same, I agree. But the probability of getting that result is higher with my approach.

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:+ an easier to sort town the day after.
Why do you think this would be the case?
Because I'm eliminating 2 suspects at the same time while you only eliminate 1.

As a model of a town to scum take 4 townie looking players, 4 neutrals and 4 scummy. I want more of those townie looking players to survive and less of the scummy looking ones. I lynch 2 scummy looking players, scum kills a townie looking player. that leaves 3-4-2. You lynch a townie and a scummy, 1 townie nk leaves 2-4-3: more suspicious looking players, easier for scum to hide.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:37 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Because I'm eliminating 2 suspects at the same time while you only eliminate 1.
I'm also eliminating 2 suspects from the pov of the rest of the town. Staying at the concrete example, if Town didn't suspect Vicarin at all then we could simply lynch Zen and be done with it.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:49 pm UTC

Reads:

heuristically_alone:
Getting strong Town vibes from him. His scum games have been much more aggressive and assertive early in D1 and interacting with lots of people, whereas this game he has been much more laid back, which is more consistent with Town!Heury.

heuristically_alone wrote:
Vicarin wrote: Also, I'd guess that town's PRs are significantly less powerful at night than scum's, so waiting around for results is probably a bad idea overall.


You "guess". Looks like Vicarin is town for knowing the same info that I know.

I get strong Town pings from this.

heuristically_alone wrote:I doubt I will have time to post any content until tomorrow. But I like the Zen - Vicarin lynch plan. If I were lynched as well and flipped town, would that make people more or less suspicious if Sabrar?

Likewise, this also gives me Town pings.

Zen:
Either completely brazen scum or very obviously Town. Very likely the latter. Seriously don't understand the case against him at all, beyond people just scumreading his aggression.


somitomi:
His tone feels very casual and he seems to be working through the game quite methodically, very consistent with what I've seen from him before. Nothing really pings me in his content so far. I like his reads here, for the most part.

@somitomi: What's your read on heury? I think you forgot him.

wam:
Seems to be putting in a fair amount of effort. I like his reads here; even where I don't agree I find the thought process makes sense. Looks okay so far.

Peaceful Whale:
Is Peaceful Whale. I flipped a coin and it turned up heads, so I think he's Town. I don't want to lynch him D1.

EGW:
Mmm... not sure. He isn't as obvtown as he was in the early stages of Crossover. I get the feeling like some of his questions are not as... sharp? as what I've seen from him before. He isn't really digging into anything. Leaving him as null for now.

plytho:
plytho's content is very light this game. I haven't really noticed him at all, which pings me since he's normally much more, um, involved. Leaves me wondering if he's a little self-conscious about being lynched and isn't putting himself out there.

I don't understand what he is reading into Sabrar vs. heury. Factually, I agree with his assessment of what happened, but I don't understand how that translates into them being scum.

freezeblade:
Haven't played with him before, and he's lurking pretty hard. I'm not sure I agree that this is a reliable indicator of people's alignment, rather than just a way of sorting people based on more/less aggressive playstyles. Unfortunately, that's the only post that he has that is really content to speak of. I'd be okay with lynching him at this point.


Madge:
Got an early Town ping from her. Also got an early scum ping from her. Her D1 content is light even for Madge, especially since I feel she's actually been making a lot more of an effort to contribute in D1 in her most recent games. Appears to be deliberately avoiding answering questions posed to her. Leaning scum at the moment.


Sabrar:
I was really hoping he was Town this game, but I'm not getting that vibe from him.

I don't know if I agree with any of his reads at all this game that he's posted so far, and I don't like the thought process that he's going about to find them.

In particular, I feel like he's relying too heavily on reactions from his initial post to draw conclusion (e.g. here and here), when I don't really feel any of the responses are actually alignment indicative in any way. Likewise, I don't really understand the case on George/Zen.

Upon full reread, I don't know that my read is quite as strong as I thought it was, but I'm definitely feeling likely scum here.


Vicarin:

Spends a lot of time talking about setup and flavor, very little talking about game content. I understand the desire, but as I point out already, this is an easy way for newbie scum to look busy and invested in the game without really having to generate a lot of reads.

I actually kind of get the sense he might be indie though. He spends a lot of time talking about indie roles and what possible strategies for them might be. Not opposed to a lynch here.



I guess my bottom four are {Sabrar, Vicarin, Madge, freezeblade}. Thinking about it more, I think that I would rather lynch the two lurkers D1 and leave the people who are actually generating content for later since they'll be easier to sort out as the game goes on.

So I'm going with:
Vote Madge

with freezeblade to follow.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby freezeblade » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:53 pm UTC

Unofficial votal:
Madge (3) - Peaceful Whale, Freezeblade, LaserGuy
Vicarin (2) - EGW, Zenii
Zenii (2) - Vicarin, Sabrar
Freezeblade (1) - heuristically_alone
Sabrar (1) - wam
Evil Georage Washington (1) - plytho
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:58 pm UTC

I think LaserGuy has learnt nothing from Crossover or Newbie Mafia. Too bad he's town, would have enjoyed attacking him a lot.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby somitomi » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:49 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Somitomi: dismissal of PR

Image
LaserGuy wrote:@somitomi: What's your read on heury? I think you forgot him.

Image
Yup, that's correct.
Um...
heuistically_alone: he seems to make good observations, but there's little about other players. I saw his reaction to Sabrar's opening post as a silly-ish response to the obviously silly plan. I'd say neutral, I'd like to know his opinion on others besides being fine with lynching Vicarin & Zenii.

Oh, and another thing:
I'm gonna just put this here before I get all indecisive again
Vote: Zenii
—◯-◯

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:23 pm UTC

Alright, time to get a bit more serious.

All Townys Read:

First off, the idea of lynching one person today and multi lynching on subsequent days is literally the worst strategy possible. I am highly suspicious of anyone pushing that agenda. I will refer to this strategy as the inverted-pyramid strategy. It is without a doubt the strategy I would be pushing as scum. The reason why:

1. We lack information early on and we have the means to gain it. By only lynching one person toDay, we are restricting the amount of information we can get.

2. The risks of multi-lynching becomes much greater as the game proceeds. It's best that we utilize multi-lynch early to minimize the risk of accidentally end gaming. As the game goes on, that risk becomes greater.

Instead of the inverted-pyramid strategy, I propose we follow the Pyramid strategy:

Counter to 1: As plytho pointed out, we gain more information from eliminating players through wagons, than we do from players being night killed. If we lynch 3 players today, we will go into Day 2 with 7 bits of information. This is a Zenii's towny's dream Day. I thing we will have a really good chance of figuring out most of the game this way.

Counter to 2: There's little risk to multi-lynching (capped at 3) toDay. We should lynch fewer than this on subsequent days. We can lynch 2 Day 2 if we are confident, but most likely we should just lynch 1. Any day after that should just be a single lynch, unless we come across evidence that it is beneficial to multi-lynch. Basically, as the game goes on, we should be fine tuning our lynches. We don't want to do something drastic when there is fewer of us. ToDay, Day 1, is the time gain a boost in information, and lynch players that are not being helpful, i.e lurking.

Unvote

Comments and Reads in next post.

Ninja'd by Somi.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

Started my case on Zen, saw that he posted, didn't want this to go to waste. Could be irrelevant if he follows up with good content and explanation.
Spoiler:
Reason why Zen is scum:

First post
I'm not even going into the huge amount of wine he pours. Could be just trying to stir things up, fishing for content. However what's really noteworthy is that he commits hard to 2 reads despite having no basis for it. Especially bad is the call for a quick lynch on Madge. He has no experience with scum!Madge but wants to lynch her without any further discussion and that is not towny.

Second post
More commitment. Probably will pretend to be usual bluster, stance on bessie is totally unfounded (as already noted).
Observe the call-out to LaserGuy and George to join him in voting, despite not having a read on them.

Third post
Case on Vicarin is weak-weak-weak as has been already discussed. Mentions no town caution/ignorance which he also showcases both in this post and previous one. somitomi already covered why first point is horrendous.

Fourth post
I disagree with the premise that caution about the lynch means someone assume we're gonna mislynch. However this is not important right now but wanted to make a note of it for later.

Fifth post already covered

Sixth post
Two things to note here:
- Zen doesn't use the same kind of 'tell' wrt George that he found suspicious wrt wam (ref 4th post). George also approaches the lynch cautiously, being afraid of mislynches. Zen should have noted that if he really cared about this.
- Vicarin's early day content is miles away from what he produced in Newbie Mafia. Had Zen attacked him for that I would have understood. No, Zen claims that Vicarin is mimicking his previous content which is simply not true.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:47 pm UTC

Comments

Some small housekeeping things:

-Claims should always be considered irrelevant to a person's alignment unless otherwise indicated by the mod. Don't ever let a claim prevent you from lynching someone scummy.
-To avoid confusion, mods should use the term Mason when referring to alignment confirmed neighbors, and the term Neighbor's otherwise. Not sure why this is important to freeze, but yea.

If you're having difficulty keeping up, you don't need to read these unless I'm addressing you specifically:

@Plytho:

It's pretty suspicious to me that you understand the value of multi-execution, but are in favor of the inverted-pyramid strategy. I hope my post has convinced you otherwise.

On another look, I actually agree with plytho that the interaction between Sabrar and heury is a bit strange. It looks sort of S v S. My feeling was that one of the people in Sabrar's read post was his mates. It could be Heury rather than Freeze. I'll think more on it if Sabrar flips maf.

@Freezeblade:

freezeblade wrote:
Team "Lynch fucking everyone" (says more lynching = more information or said 3+ for D1):
plytho (says they aren't down for 2 lynches D1 though)
Laserguy
Sabrar
Zenii

I feel like the people shooting for lots of lynches, although I disagree with it (I don't trust my D1 reads enough to lynch more than 2), are likely coming from a place of townieness. I don't think I could support a lynch on anyone from that group unless something else surfaces that pings me greatly.
Convenient that Sabrar happens to be in that group. :wink:

The mini-feud/discussion between EGW and Sabrar sounds quite a bit like a townie-townie D1 fight over strategy. I personally don't put much stock in strategy talk content being indicative of alignment, as scum are just as likely to suggest a "good" strategy to try and rack up some townie points (I've seen this done on the scum side plenty).
I'm sure it does. The more excuses to have Sabrar in your town group the better right :D

Oh, what's this?
I see loads of people saying that they think Sabrar is scummy (EGW, Laserguy, PW [calls them crazy], plytho [implies he may later in D1], wam, Zenii [says will vote for Sabrar if Vic does]), but only wam seems to be voting for them. I think this smells a bit funny, and stinks of possible distancing.
Look's like someone's getting prepared for a post-flip.

@Peaceful Whale:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Hmmmmmm
I really don’t like the “Definitely scum” people...
There’s little evidence against most of Zenniis scummy people.
I think I said this before, but I believe he is just placing pressure on individuals.
I’m perfectly fine with him having me on his town list, but I’m worried it’s him trying to manipulate me into following him...

No offense dude, but you're pretty easy for me to read. I read you off a few posts in crossover as well. People that have a hard time reading you are just over thinking it.

@Sabrar:

Sabrar wrote:@Zen: are you at least 95% sure that Vicarin is scum?
What was the point of this question?

Extrapolation. I got the impression from Crossover that you were considered super-experienced. You can lead Town when town, you can easily mimic it when you're scum.
George is actually quite bad at scum. He's really apathetic about it and does the minimal amount of content as possible. I don't think he's ever not been lynched in Dgames when he's been scum.

heuristically_alone
I already explained this but here it is again: h_a misrepresents my list and actively avoids reacting to the argument I gave for him being included as #4 on the lynch-list. He follows that thought to a non-conclusion. This is forced, he simply didn't know which direction he should go but felt the need to reply.

Madge
Also natural, stream-of-consciousness. Takes me somewhat seriously (asking why Jester can't be among the 3 but interestingly not asking why Vig can't be among the first 4). Townie reaction.

Sabrar, why are you reading these two things differently? If heury taking you seriously is scummy, why isn't Madge taking you seriously scummy?

@heury:
heuristically_alone wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:I’m perfectly fine with him having me on his town list,

Haha good. Otherwise I'd be worried.

This was sarcasm correct? Just want to make sure.

Why are you scum reading Sabrar? Do you really think it would be beneficial to off yourself? What's the deal with you and Sabrar's jovial banter?

@Vic
I understand your view, thanks for the response. My main concern with you was your preoccupation with things I think are unimportant. After reading your last game though, I do think it is likely that you feel things like NL and Jesters are more important than they actually are, so I don't feel as strongly about you as I did initially. I do think that your early PW push was weird though and that you're probably some form of scum.

@wam
Also Zenii the below is exactly why I considered it as a possbility as it makes it easier to balance.
Ah yes, because being able to win the game with a single night action is extremely balanced.

@bessie
Joke confirmation posts in dgames is very common. The confirmation phase in general is pretty loose. If the mod strictly wants for everyone to confirm before any sort of info can be leaked, they will have each person confirm in their PM rather than the thread. I'm very sorry if I broke the rules. It wasn't my intention.

On another note, please explain how Peaceful Whale has at all attempted to draw attention to himself this game. Your read of him seems to me like putting the cart before the horse and judging him by past things rather than his play in this game.

Reads in Next Post

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:10 pm UTC

@Zen:
1. Point of the question was to see if you were willing to sacrifice yourself so that we can lynch scum from your pov. Please refer to Sabrar's absolutely brilliantTM plan for more details.
2. I'm reading them differently because they are coming from 2 different players. I'm constantly amazed that personal meta means nothing for a lot of players.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:15 pm UTC

BTW telling us to completely ignore claims is so unbelievably scummy I can't even...

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Peaceful Whale » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:55 pm UTC

1. bessie- confirmed, no “rule breaking” posts... I find the idea of 2 independents interesting, to me it just seems like to much. (Bessie, about me coping your meta last game. I was just following orders, I didn’t even realize I had) I feel like this is town Bessie, one who Amy have a grudge for being guilt tripped... She’s poooosted few posts with lairs of content. Very different from my many small spam posts. I will try and do better... I’m sorry Bessie I’m unhelpful, I’ll try better... (don’t feel guilty, thank you for bringing this to my attention) Overall I like Bessie’s content, and towny to me, even though I appear to be her lynch target. @Bessie, when you lynch me, Zennii will no longer be scummy, as I am town.
2. Evil George Washington- I feel like his meta is “ask people a lot of questions”. Which he has been doing. He has defended me vigorously, so he gets townie points from me now, and by everyone else when I get lynched. I really like his arguments he’s made with the lynching. His content seems towny. So he’s being put as towny now.
3. freezeblade- not all that much content, I don’t like his vote for Madge, it’s coming off to me as pretty flimsy, but he did say it was his scummiest read. I guess he just wanted to get a vote down, which is fine, it gives us more content. His note about masons surprised me. Last time I played as a mason, I could only be partnered with someone who was town. (I was town too) It makes me wonder where he got this idea. Either he has a mason buddy, was thundering about it, or someone in his scumchat mentioned it... which leads me to believe that if someone did mention it in scumchat, they know their buddy is town... However I feel like if he were scum, he wouldn’t mention this. I’d act surprised if my mason buddy mentioned this and say something like “oh, I didn’t even think of that”. Followed by a post using the same above logic to clear my buddy of being scum. And he/she would realize that if I posted that it would mean I wasn’t scum! So I think I’m over thinking it. So I won’t, it feels scummy to me, so I’ll let it be scummy.
4. heuristically_alone- if scum, most likely buddied with Zennii, and Sabrar would get towny points. If Sabrar is scum, then Heury probably isn’t. I feel like home and heury have a similar posting style, we’re more forum games poooosters, where we have lots of small, kinda of topic pooooossst. I think his slow and steady personality is based off not expecting everyone to change based off flip. I’m putting him as towny for now...

is there value of keeping you mason chat secret? I’m trying to think of a reason...

I’m not going to be able to post more (probably) until tomorrow... I have unit finals this week. So I’m just posting what I have to keep the sharks at bay.

I’m beginning to think I don’t like Madge as much as I thought, her pooooosts seemed off. When I do her I’ll go more in depth...
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:58 pm UTC

You shouldn't ignore claims. Not sure where you're getting that. I said it shouldn't influenced your read on a person. I said the same thing in crossover. A Doctor claim, for example, doesn't make someone town.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:59 pm UTC

Ninjad that was @sabrar.

influence*

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby freezeblade » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:36 am UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:3. freezeblade- [...] His note about masons surprised me. Last time I played as a mason, I could only be partnered with someone who was town. (I was town too) It makes me wonder where he got this idea.


Ok, so I'm forced to explain this again. I got the idea because there has been two games on this forums where I have played, and this was the case. The failure for people to recognize that masons don't necessarily mean the same alignment (on this forum) was one of the main reasons the games ended the way they did. Chairman Maofia, as well as Batmafia II. See discussions involving these in their respective threads on the last pages or so, once the game is over. (viewtopic.php?f=53&t=99751&hilit=mason+maofia is chairman maofia). In fact, if you search the forums, you'll see me ranting on this quite a bit. On other forums there may be a demarcation between "neighbors" and "masons" but this forum is not one of them.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Madge » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:39 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Zenii wrote:Please reveal the Madge meta.


I probably will after she answers my question from earlier.


What question? I ain't doing your easter egg hunt. If you ask me a question and I miss it, ask it again. Whatever my answer you'll probably find me scummy anyway. (I'm surprised I'm not on anyone's lists yet - oh wait, no, LaserGuy voted me! Yay!!!! WAIT I HAD THREE VOTES I DIDN"t NOTICE THAT WHAT THE HELL GUYS)

Don't like EGW now. Don't like Laserguy.

I think Sabrar's smiely reaction is legit and appreciated but no read. Don't want to voteoff today, but willing to do so tomorrow so we know whether to trust him D3.

Like Plytho though.

I don't do reasons so don't ask for them. I'm not trying to convince you, just sayig where my head's at.

(Except I want to vote EGW off so the game doesn't move so fast!)

I think we likely have daychat FWIW

Not avoiding answering questions just have missed them.

Content light today because I've had a heck of a week at work, my perennially late project (because they gave me an impossible deadline) has *finally* had the scope torched and replaced with something that might actually improve travel times for more than 18 months (WOW /sarcasm), and they want me to meet an even LESS realistic deadline. Also there were two meetings where I got raked over the coals for the project being late and I didn't get any sleep Tuesday but inexplicably went to work anyway instead of taking a sick day. Anyway. It was a heck of a week.

@PW you should keep mason chat secret because you can get to the endgame and have one or two confirmed townies (masons, breadcrumb somehow!) which can allow you to Endgame by PoE. It's very valuable. If you out yourself scum will NK you / get you votedoff / etc.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:45 am UTC

@George, I frogot to ask you something. Please answer these three questions:

1. About how many games have we played together?
2. About how many times have I misidentified you as scum and pushed to lynch you?
3. About how many times have I misidentified you as town?

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Madge » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:48 am UTC

To answer Bessie's question (that I thought was rhetorical but maybe not) now I'm thinking of it: Zennii's content is really weird but I have the suspicion it's playstyle / strategy difference rather than scum being scummy.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - Pregame

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:50 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Madge wrote:Are there listening roles?


Why did you feel the need to ask about this? This game is low bastardry.


This is what I asked you. Do you not get notified when you're quoted?

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby freezeblade » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:52 am UTC

Madge wrote:@PW you should keep mason chat secret because you can get to the endgame and have one or two confirmed townies (masons, breadcrumb somehow!) which can allow you to Endgame by PoE. It's very valuable. If you out yourself scum will NK you / get you votedoff / etc.


Seriously. This is exactly the problem I was talking about with this reasoning. Masons are not guaranteed to be the same alignment on these forums. You've been around here long enough to know that Madge, and if endgame comes up and people play "follow the masons" it can lead to a quick scum victory, and me ranting about how nobody listened to me, again.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Vicarin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:01 am UTC

Better actually get a reads list out there.

bessie - Only 3 posts so far, but all pretty chunky. I think reading too much into pregame content is not terribly useful, but wanting PW to stop messing around, especially after what happened last game, is very sensible.

Evil George Washington - Posted a lot but doesn't seem to be getting that much done out of it. I'd need to reread Crossover to get a good baseline town read on him though, and that would take so goddamn long. Definitely wants to limit how much we multilynch, posts some weird analysis.

freezeblade - Not that many posts but some good content. Also very wary about multilynching a bunch, not sure if it's completely justified.

heuristically_alone - Been pretty active, reasonable content. Likes lynching a decent number of people D1 in order to get info.

LaserGuy - Seems pretty quiet compared to usual, though he did just put through a big reads list recently. I think most of his points are pretty reasonable, but immediately going for anyone who dares mention the possibility of a cult is a bit weird.

LaserGuy wrote:
Vicarin:
I actually kind of get the sense he might be indie though. He spends a lot of time talking about indie roles and what possible strategies for them might be. Not opposed to a lynch here.


Scum thought I was Doc last game because I wouldn't shut up about them when talking about why NL was bad. Maybe I just talk about stuff that I think is important to make common knowledge?

Madge - Ridiculously small amount of actual content, perfectly happy just following through on a Lynch all Lurkers plan this game if she doesn't put out some reads or something. Already got a fair few votes on her though.

Peaceful Whale - Posting surprisingly little compared to usual and seems to insist on just going with other people's opinions. There's not much here I like. Someone whos meta is to be unhelpful to town should just be lynched in a game like this.

plytho - Been pushing for multi lynches in order to increase information per lynch. This does assume that the lynches are completely independent in how people vote (they aren't), but it's not a terrible idea. However, also says they're against multiple D1 lynches. Hmmmmmm.

Sabrar - Been drawing a lot of fire for acting somewhat weirdly but wow it's generated a lot of discussion as a result. This is sufficiently different from last game that I'm mildly worried.

somitomi - Been liking her content a lot more than last game, but hey, they were a PR last game anyway. Whoops. Reads seem mostly justified but then puts up a town list based on gut reads. Hmmmmm.

wam - Mostly reasonable stuff in all their posts, nothing terribly interesting to report.

Zenii - Been very aggressive, particularly against me, and has been somewhat willing to ignore what people are actually saying when going after them. Still leaning way towards brazen scum as opposed to aggressive townie, but could feasibly be wrong.

@PW, I'd really prefer you just do useful stuff instead of endlessly apologizing for not doing it every game. Then you'll not have anything to apologize for, amazingly enough. Also, why do the people defending you get townie points?

Mason chat if it exists in this game is RIDICULOUSLY powerful because if you get a block of confirmed town larger than any scum block, it's basically GG right there due to the unlimited lynches. I'm pretty skeptical towards any mason claims because of it to be honest.

@Zenii: There are some roles that I'd find really, REALLY hard to justify as scum. What if someone claims one of them?

Ninja'd by Madge: Well hey there's some reads.

@Madge: What do you think of me?

@Freezeblade: I don't think quoting a game from 5 years ago really indicates that masons aren't almost always the same alignment. Any more recent examples from low bastardry games? Because I can't remember any.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby freezeblade » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:07 am UTC

I'm not saying that it happens often, I'm saying that it is possible and has happened here. Granted I haven't been around much in the last few years, but trusting masons to be 100% town (or that your mason partner is guaranteed town) is foolish, and stupid. It has resulted in games that should have been clean cut to become not so, because people trusted masons being town as gospel truth. It is not.
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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby heuristically_alone » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:09 am UTC

Zenii wrote:-Claims should always be considered irrelevant to a person's alignment unless otherwise indicated by the mod. Don't ever let a claim prevent you from lynching someone scummy.


I'll remember this when you are claiming :lol:

Zenii wrote:@heury:
heuristically_alone wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:I’m perfectly fine with him having me on his town list,

Haha good. Otherwise I'd be worried.

This was sarcasm correct? Just want to make sure.

Why are you scum reading Sabrar? Do you really think it would be beneficial to off yourself? What's the deal with you and Sabrar's jovial banter?


I 100% believe Sabrar is town and have never accused him as scum. (Thanks for putting words in my mouth) I don't believe me being offed will indicate Sabrar as scum (which is why I am opposed to a sabra-huery lynch), but I was curious to see if me flipping as toen would make anyone think that Savrar couldn't be scum. And I really enjoy being jovial. Especially with Sabrar.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Evil George Washington » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:10 am UTC

I get out at 10pm. I will answer you once I make my reads post, Zen.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:11 am UTC

Alright dam dude, that's why I was asking. My assumption was that you were asking because you thought Sabrar was scum and offing yourself would help others with that. I wasn't sure why you were askin.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:12 am UTC

above was @ heury

btw could someone unvote me, the day will end if I am put at l-3.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:14 am UTC

Also heury, was your post at PW sarcasm?

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Vicarin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:16 am UTC

Zenii wrote:btw could someone unvote me, the day will end if I am put at l-3.


Wut. Randomly joking around ain't helping.

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Re: Stellaris Mafia (Lights Out) - D1 - Assassination

Postby Zenii » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:19 am UTC

I'm not joking. I said it was serious time.


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