Wams chaos game day 5

[mpolo]

Votals, of course.

[moody7277]

you claimed to be non-town of your own free will, could have tried to wiggle out of jimbob's finding.

Yes I did, because I figured that an attempt to wriggle out of it would look scummier that just admitting an uncomfortable truth. Plus I figured that it was blindingly obvious at the time, just like it was to jimbob when he pointed it out, and everybody was just going along with it to find actual scum. Maybe it was only obvious to him because he was coming at D1 fresh.

Why don't you full claim if already lost, explaining how a town-adjacent indie is supposed to work in this setup? It would just help us, especially if you have any sort of night-results.

I'm just a vanilla survivor, I win if I make it to the end of the game alive. Still have no idea how that was supposed to square with what you pointed out earlier, maybe wam was just going to gloss over it if I were to be alive with town at the end. Unfortunately, I don't have any night-results.

[plytho]

I believe the resurrected double voter is town.

Mpolo didn't have a double vote D1

[Sabrar]

@moody: no, that won't work. I don't think wam would have made such a huge mistake, plus you must have asked him immediately when you noticed the discrepancy between your win-con and the rules. Any sensible mod would have changed it D1 if indeed there was a mistake as it didn't yet affect the action. Also, this was advertised as power-role heavy. Madge already claimed VT, I don't see a second vanilla (especially a survivor) to be an option.

[moody7277]

Madge is almost certainly lying about being VT.

[plytho]

Madge already claimed VT, I don't see a second vanilla (especially a survivor) to be an option.

mpolo claimed vanilla too in a way.

[Sabrar]

@mpolo: welcome back! That ties up neatly the "you are not dead until i tell you so" angle plus one of the non-flips.

@plytho: but he's not, he had resurrection plus now double-vote.

[Sabrar]

@moody: just post your role-pm and let us decide.

[plytho]

Skipped this due to mpolo showing up:

Well, tone doesn't always carry over in a written form. I saw analytical!plytho in those posts.

I guess it doesn't. I was almost literally jumping up and down as I tried drag out my reveal in the hope that someone would stumble over it. I envy Madge's expressiveness.

I'm surprised you say that shift wasn't noticeable because I was giddy with excitement about catching a slip.

Well, tone doesn't always carry over in a written form. I saw analytical!plytho in those posts.

I misremembered because I didn't feel my earlier evidence was all that strong.

The way you misremembered Mark not being scum in Alien Warfare? Again I find this hard to believe coming from you.

Not quite the same thing. Alien warfare was plain forgetfulness, while here I was more or less correctly remembering my thoughts on ConMan and the lists, but not how I expressed those in play.

@plytho: but he's not, he had resurrection plus now double-vote.

That's why I said "in a way". He did have a vanilla role pm

[moody7277]

@moody: just post your role-pm and let us decide.

The mod hates people claiming role names – you have been warned.

Anything more than I've already told you would fall under that.

[Sabrar]

That's why I said "in a way". He did have a vanilla role pm

But he also said that there was a hint about his potential survival.

@moody: you have nothing to lose.

[moody7277]

@moody: you have nothing to lose.

Malarkey. I'm not going to be modkilled just for your curiosity's sake. You want to vote for me, vote and be damned. I haven't gamed it out in detail, but I think the best you can reasonably hope for if you lynch me is that both scum teams decide to take out somi and you're left with a 2-1-1 with wam's SO as kingmaker.

[Sabrar]

Will a player be mod-killed or otherwise punished by the mod for claiming their role-name?

[wam]

Will a player be mod-killed or otherwise punished by the mod for claiming their role-name?

they will not be modkilled

[Sabrar]

You can post your role-pm after wam replies with a negative. I know this is a bastard game but it would be very unethical in my opinion to mod-kill someone without explicitly warning them before about the consequences (and vagued threats do not apply).

[moody7277]

Well...in light...of wam's post...I guess...you get...what you want.

You are William Shatner. You enjoy cheating death, and have broken a lot of rules in order to do so.

You are a survivor. You win if you make it to the end of the game alive.

[somitomi]

What can I do to convince you?

Post reads in which you elaborate on why you think Sabrar and moody are scum. I can't promise it will convince me, but your apparent reluctance to put a little effort in definitely isn't going to improve my opinion of you.

BTW I agree that moody is C and I don't think anything short of a full-claim would convince me otherwise.

Moody put Mark into his bottom three at the end of D1 at a time when bussing wasn't really necessary. Only three other players considered Mark scummy at that point.
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I'm a bit vary about plytho's inconsistent explanations regarding the ConMan thing.
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As much as it annoys me to say, plytho's idea of the current state of the game being 3-1-1-1 makes the most sense. What that means is that for town to have a chance, they have to lynch someone with a kill. That is not me. I think town banking on scum firing at eachother is pie in the sky.

Or so you say, but I'd still like to know what your wincon is and how that would work in this setup.
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I'm just a vanilla survivor, I win if I make it to the end of the game alive. Still have no idea how that was supposed to square with what you pointed out earlier, maybe wam was just going to gloss over it if I were to be alive with town at the end. Unfortunately, I don't have any night-results.

How have you not asked about this in PM already? A survivor being impossible in this game was pointed out on D1, maybe even on page 1.

[Sabrar]

Moody put Mark into his bottom three at the end of D1 at a time when bussing wasn't really necessary. Only three other players considered Mark scummy at that point.

He gave an explanation based on which he could have withdrawn it anytime. Mark wasn't a lynch-candidate, it was distancing and not bussing.

[somitomi]

Moody put Mark into his bottom three at the end of D1 at a time when bussing wasn't really necessary. Only three other players considered Mark scummy at that point.

He gave an explanation based on which he could have withdrawn it anytime. Mark wasn't a lynch-candidate, it was distancing and not bussing.

True. Meanwhile, I looked at the bessie-moody interaction, but bessie scumread moody for most of the game, so that one seems less likely to me.
The thing is, I have the unsettling feeling that we might be letting the actual mafia slip by focusing on moody.

[mpolo]

Argh. Just lost a post.

Question for wam:
Is it theoretically possible for a player not to belong to any "faction" at all, for the purposes of the town win condition?

Because if moody really has that claimed role and is considered to belong to his own faction, he is actually a mafia supporter (depending on what the win conditions of the various mafie are), as he could not win with town. Or he has an unwinnable role, which is not allowed by the rules. (Or a role that depends on him engineering a 1-1-1 split going into the last night and the two mafie kill each other off…)

Since my role very explicitly said "Vanilla Town" and then wasn't vanilla after all, I am willing to consider the possibility that Madge is town, and some weirdness will ensue with her that she is totally not expecting.

Somotomi seems townie.
Moody claims neutrality (with a townie preference)
Sabrar and plytho are the primary motors of the discussion. I am tending to read Sabrar townie, but I am not 100% decided.

I will unfortunately be travelling this weekend (only phone posts and probably no Wi-Fi). Hopefully, I can at least try to keep up.

[wam]

.

Question for wam:
Is it theoretically possible for a player not to belong to any "faction" at all, for the purposes of the town win condition?

No comment

[Madge]

Madge is almost certainly lying about being VT.

I'm vanilla town.

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@somi I am 80% sure that people won't believe me if I do put up a case, so that's why I am reluctant. I'm not lying when I say it will take hours. You are so far the only person who has implied they might be swayed by my case, so I don't think it's worth my time.

@whoever sorry I forgot: plytho is not my third scum pick that was poor phrasing on my part. He's my third scum candidate: if moody isn't mafia then plytho probably is. But I think moody is scum plytho is town is most likely. I think sabrar is scum independent of the others.

[Sabrar]

The thing is, I have the unsettling feeling that we might be letting the actual mafia slip by focusing on moody.

Don't worry, there is 0% chance that today's lynch will actually be survivor!moody

@plytho: would like to see your full claim next.

@Madge: I'm also interested in your flavor. I have a guess but it would be nice to have it confirmed.

[Madge]

@Madge: I'm also interested in your flavor. I have a guess but it would be nice to have it confirmed.

I am vanilla town.

[Sabrar]

I meant your role-name.

[Sabrar]

And all the italicized stuff that comes with it.

[Madge]

I am vanilla town.

[Sabrar]

Ok, let's try it this way. Are your initials MF?
BTW if your answer is "I am vanilla town" yet again then I'm going to vote for you tomorrow. No ifs and buts. I totally respect your right to play this game in the way of your choosing and please don't take this as me forcing something on you but in case you're town you have to realize that this is actually counterproductive. You say you have the time to play the game and I'm glad, so please give us something to work with.

[Madge]

Firstly, you're scum, so I'm not playing your game; it's counterproductive for town to take things from scum. I'll answer questions from anyone other than you or moody.

I would be willing to claim something my initials aren't, but it would be a one-time thing so you can't just give me a list of 26² initials and wait for me to deny 26²-1 of them, because nobody wants that.

And, again, I'm not answering your questions. If someone else wants to ask me to answer your question, then I'll do it, for them.

If people can't see that you and Moody are the two scum (with plytho a distant third if moody is somehow telling the truth about not being scum), then I can't say anything to convince them I'm right.

Anyway, Sabrar, if you and moody are in different mafias, vote moody off with me.

Moody, if you make it to the night, Sabrar's in the other mafia. People seem to believe I'm scum so they can vote me off today or tomorrow and you can get Sabrar dead to save yourself.

[Madge]

@everyone other than moody and sabrar: think about this game. think about what's been happening. ask yourself, honestly, if you think I could be right. I've been voted off so often lately for seeming scummy, for not playing the game the way people want. I've been playing in my own way, but at least now I've got reads. DO you want me to learn from this game that even if I have reads (AND CORRECT READS, I would proverbially eat my proverbial hat if I'm wrong about BOTH moody and Sabrar, and I give myself an 80% chance of being right about the scum team they are on, let alone my confidence of their alignment) - do you want me to learn that even THAT is not good enough and I need more than just "The vibe of the Thing" to get out of it?

Everyone thinks moody is scummy and then when he claims non-town it's like "oh I am sure a scummy person WOULDN'T LIE ABOUT BEING A NON-DANGEROUS SCUM". Moody is scum. Moody is dangerous. 100%. Let's not repeat previous mistakes. He goes, a kill goes. Sabrar goes, another kill goes.

[Sabrar]

I'm not planning to go through 600 more combinations. I have one guess, it's either MF or I have no idea.
@mpolo, somitomi: please make Madge answer this question.

[plytho]

@plytho: would like to see your full claim next.

Yeah, I'd rather not.

As far as I see only you and moody are reading me as scum. Call me again when mpolo and somitomi think so too.

Anyway, I'm going to do some rereading now.

Madge's plea kind of makes me hope she's not scum.

[Sabrar]

Call me again when mpolo and somitomi think so too.

@mpolo, somitomi: please help. I will absolutely claim after plytho and Madge.

[somitomi]

@everyone other than moody and sabrar: think about this game. think about what's been happening. ask yourself, honestly, if you think I could be right. I've been voted off so often lately for seeming scummy, for not playing the game the way people want. I've been playing in my own way, but at least now I've got reads. DO you want me to learn from this game that even if I have reads (AND CORRECT READS, I would proverbially eat my proverbial hat if I'm wrong about BOTH moody and Sabrar, and I give myself an 80% chance of being right about the scum team they are on, let alone my confidence of their alignment) - do you want me to learn that even THAT is not good enough and I need more than just "The vibe of the Thing" to get out of it?

Look, we're all trying to solve the game our own way and most of us would like to go on something more tangible than the vibe of the thing. You have to understand that the same way we understand you playing this game your way. This is not to say I have confidence in Sabrar being town (moody is clearly not town), but I'll have to do my own research about this.
By the way I'm a little uncomfortable with the, well, "extortion" vibe of your last sentence.

Everyone thinks moody is scummy and then when he claims non-town it's like "oh I am sure a scummy person WOULDN'T LIE ABOUT BEING A NON-DANGEROUS SCUM". Moody is scum. Moody is dangerous. 100%. Let's not repeat previous mistakes. He goes, a kill goes. Sabrar goes, another kill goes.

Nobody ever said that, ever. But if there's some ever-so-slight chance that moody isn't mafia, we have to take that seriously and look for the scum hiding elsewhere.

@mpolo, somitomi: please make Madge answer this question.

What is this guess based on and how does that verify Madge's alignment?

[Sabrar]

What is this guess based on and how does that verify Madge's alignment?

It's based on Madge's tendency to breadcrumb. It does not confirm her alignment (though she does it more often than scum) however it would give us another option on how to proceed with the order of lynches.

[Madge]

Sabrar's the scum hiding elsewhere. Ugh.

I didn't breadcrumb, so you can drop that suspicion. I wouldn't have breadcrumbed my role name, anyway, since we are not meant to claim them. I would have breadcrumbed "VT", I guess. But I didn't so we're getting into random hypotheticals.

[mpolo]

Moody's PM days that he breaks the rules in order to survive. I think this means that he could really be a survivor. And could really win with town.

Because my hint was in the italicized text: paraphrased, and taking a similar phrase from another source, my motto was "I shall return!"

[Sabrar]

Moody's PM days that he breaks the rules in order to survive. I think this means that he could really be a survivor. And could really win with town.

In this game only it is allowed to quote or paste any pm you receive from the mod (as I already said before).
moody didn't break any rules (though his supposed role-pm is fake as hell).

[plytho]

That's not what mpolo is saying. He's referring to this line from the pm

You enjoy cheating death, and have broken a lot of rules in order to do so.

[Sabrar]

Oh, okay, I missed that. I don't think it's relevant though.