Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

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bessie
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (pregame)

Postby bessie » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:16 pm UTC

Confirm.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:16 am UTC

Confirmation posts: All acceptable.

Setup: 9-3.

Gojoe post: Maybe later.

Welcome newbies: SuicideJunkie, welcome and very happy to see that you signed up for a game! I know that you have been following along and have a game in the sign up queue, so you probably have an idea of how we do things, but please feel free to ask any questions.

Welcome returning players: MasterOfAll, very happy to see you decided to give this another try! I hope that the content level will be more manageable than Newbie New Year (I’m still not exactly sure how and why that game got so out of hand).

FoS Madge: Suspicious first post, already letting us know she will be lost this game, setting up an excuse for poor content and being scum read by me, and pre-enlisting Sabrar to defend her.

Ok Sabrar, what did I leave off the checklist?


Bonus observations:

Hmm, MoA is either lying or someone sucks for submitting a vanilla town role. IGMEOY MasterOfAll.

moody7277 wrote:vote: bessie

Probably the only time I'll be able to vote for her this game.
Why, do you know I’m not mafia so my super townie meta will protect me and you won’t have another chance? And why do you think that in this game you need to scum read me to vote for me? You voted for me in Texas Hold’em when you weren’t even scum reading me, you policy lynched me for being bessie. FoS moody.

BoomFrog wrote:I'm going to try and take it easy this game. Anyway, Bessie will be able to confirm that I am town from my confirmation post so I don't need to worry to much.
Soooo, your deliberately worded your confirmation post in such a way to ensure that it did not appear suspicious to me? Why did you feel the need to be deliberate? FoS BoomFrog.

LaserGuy wrote:I think in this style of game we should probably mass claim D1.
How about NOOOOO?? Hmmmm. FoS LaserGuy.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:15 am UTC

SuicideJunkie, my post contains is a list of items Sabrar expects to see in my initial post. If any of these items are missing he will use it as a reason to scum read me in lieu of actually analyzing my content.

Madge wrote:FoS bessie: can't take a joke

wait that's NAI for bessie... nvm :lol:

Spoiler:
Well! Sniff.jpg
Well! Sniff.jpg (54.82 KiB) Viewed 4988 times

I don’t participate in RVS, but I don’t like to cut it off on page 1 and deprive everyone else of their fun.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:54 am UTC

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:I don’t participate in RVS, but I don’t like to cut it off on page 1 and deprive everyone else of their fun.

So you want to vote someone seriously, but are waiting for page 2 to do so?
Slight poke at Madge in response to her post (refer also to attached picture of Offended BessieDog), but with a touch of bessie-seriousness. I forgot that the previous game had regressed to the point where I needed to insert the [/sarcasm] tag on all my snarky remarks. [/not sarcasm]

wam wrote:vote master of all

only one not to write confirm.

Fos Bessie for not calling this out. Probably scum together.
FoS wam.
1. For not acknowledging that you should have the same self-awareness as BoomFrog in this post.
2. For pretending not to understand what was acceptable about everyone’s confirmation posts.
3. For pretending not to see how MoA’s confirmation post differs from yours in B99, and why I scum read you for it (see below my response to Sabrar).

Sabrar wrote:- moody gets a townie-point for the joke (bessie's FoS for the same is understandable but in my opinion misguided, she does not consider moody's long history of stating how she is always the most townie person)
Untrue and you know it. Example, hmmm, how about let’s use Secret Santa 2017:
bessie wrote:
moody7277 wrote: -Town-
bessie-no surprise here
And what did I do to deserve this? Oh, yeah, I signed up for the game. :roll:


Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Confirmation posts: All acceptable.
This is a bit strange coming from bessie who found wam suspicious in Halloween because of non-standard conf-post. I want to put this aside because of our discussion in Texas but then again she was scum there so might be some unconscious thing at work here.
FoS Sabrar for pretending to misunderstand what the deal is with me and confirmation posts. I’ve discussed this in detail in at least a half dozen games. Example, hey, I just happen to have a summary of my recent confirmation post analysis history here (note, hey another bessie-scum game!). Open the spoiler to find some explanation as to why I do confirmation post analysis, and links to previous games where I discusses why I do confirmation post analysis. Everyone should totally read it. Sabrar must remember it, it was integral to his reasons for scum reading me and getting me lynched.

Quick summary for the newbies: It’s not the confirmation post content in itself I find objectionable. What I object to is the attitude that anything that is posted in the confirmation post doesn’t count because “we’re not really playing yet” (see my write up in the linked post on SDK in The Dark Tower). Everything posted in the thread (with the exception of RL information and some spoilers) is game content and is fair game for analysis. You don’t get to pick and choose what content you want considered and analyzed. This is one reason you can’t edit your posts, so you can’t edit out scummy slips.

Re: wam’s confirmation post in B99. My analysis on why it was scummy here:
bessie wrote:Not liking wam's confirmation post, to me it feels like a pre excuse for lurking.
(Compare also to Mark’s confirmation post from the same game which I found acceptable.) wam’s B99 conf post/opening was similar to Madge’s in this game. They both pre-set an excuse for poor content. And I FoS’d them both for it.

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Soooo, your deliberately worded your confirmation post in such a way to ensure that it did not appear suspicious to me? Why did you feel the need to be deliberate? FoS BoomFrog.
This is double-standard, bessie did the same by conforming her opening analysis to my 'expectations'.
Looking at the post overall it looks to be standard bessie but easily replicated from scum!pov. Unfortunately bessie's town-percent is nowhere near the standard neighborhood.
Sabrar wrote:- bessie drawing renewed attention to the double-standard (actually this might earn her some townie-points, I think scum!her would have realized this earlier. Hmmmm, need more data).
No double standard. Like BoomFrog, I am self aware that I tailored my post to your expectations, and like BoomFrog, I acknowledged it. Unlike wam, who did not. In light of this analysis, I find this comment quite interesting:
Sabrar wrote: - wam's first post is very interesting if he's not just fooling around. Also it is too short by a mile, especially considering that PS. +1 scum-point as a first impression.


Sabrar wrote: @bessie: why 9-3?
1. Three seems like the right number of non-town.
2. My thought at the time was that the nature of Secret Santa isn’t conducive to having an indie.
3. My read of the setup (sorry moody I’m gaming the game) is that chat is night chat, which would balance the larger scum team.
4. Proprietary mod read (sorry again moody for gaming the mod).

MasterOfAll wrote:@Everyone who is familiar with the mods: How do you think they went about setting up the game? Fixing up our role submissions a bit, deciding on town-scum-indy balance, then just randomly assigning each role and alignment? Or would they be more likely to manually select things?
See the opening post:
Sir jimModmacdoodle wrote:8. The flavor and abilities of submitted roles may have been altered at the mods' discretion. Players will not be informed if their role has been changed from its original conception.

9. No information will be revealed about how the roles were distributed or balanced. If you submitted a role with a suggested alignment, it may or may not be that alignment.
Sir jimModmacdoodle wrote:7. We will do our best to keep the roles that players submit intact, but we reserve the right to alter the roles as necessary to make the game fun for everyone.

So because I have a history of asking this anyway:

Were alignments randomly assigned to players?

SuicideJunkie wrote:Re: Bessie:
Bessie does have that meta of Auto-Town. I'm not sure how much the avatar has to do with it, and how much is the small sample set of heroism and martyrdom from past games I saw. Fuzzier neutral than most? Gut towniness feel is probably false but that obviously doesn't mean scum either.
If you’ve read some previous games, you must be familiar with my meta and picked up on the joke (ask if you want this explained). Re the avatar, the subject in the picture was a mind control expert. You don’t know how many times I awoke from a trance in my kitchen, holding a cookie box, with no memory of how or why I was there.

@LaserGuy, re this post, going by memory, I know it was definitely an advantage in SS2017 to scum knowing moody’s power, but I’m not sure I agree with this:
LaserGuy wrote:Even if we can't outright break the setup, by mass claiming we can force scum to choose targets that are suboptimal for their abilities since they need to justify every action immediately rather than retrospectively.
If anything, knowing town’s powers allowed us to choose our targets optimally, they were just suboptimal targets because we had to work around moody. Also I can confirm that we were able to determine easily who had the power I submitted. Would need to reread to see if I agree that I had the strongest power. Pre-post edit: see also this post, not sure I agree, will reread SS2017 and offer more opinions on this later if requested.

plytho wrote: The advantage of a mass claim is on the scum side.
This is my current feeling also. Hey, I agree with plytho!

Madge wrote:mpolo!! How are you scum reading me for two posts none of which contained any game relevant content because did i mention it's D1 and you KNOW how i feel about d1!!!!!!
You don’t get to decide what in your content is relevant and what doesn’t count; it is all fair game for analysis (see above). However. . .
Madge wrote:non game related (bessie please don't read because you'll find a way to scumread me for the below :lol: )
I promise any scum read I might make of you will not be based on any of the content in that post which is below that line.


Vote: Sabrar

To do list: Determine if his partner is wam or Madge.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:31 pm UTC

Ok, I’m not sure how to get Sabrar to post, but if this is some lame posting restriction I’m going to be really super pissed off disappointed in at least three people.

wam wrote:So was just making up the confirmation post analysis as I'm not Bessie. I think Bessie reaction was natural. As far as I can see MOA ignoredti completely which is odd and more.likely to be scum moa.
Can you explain your reasoning on MoA?

SuicideJunkie wrote: Is it really possible for Bessie to be ~185% townie? That aura is amazing.
It was up until last year’s Secret Santa game. I’m only at 50% over the past year. :P

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:49 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
bessie wrote:Ok, I’m not sure how to get Sabrar to post, but if this is some lame posting restriction I’m going to be really super pissed off disappointed in at least three people.

Something is definitely up. It is extremely different then his usual style. I expect him to address this issue in his next post.
BoomFrog, I think you may be on to something. This is off, even compared to DecoySabrar of WoT3.

Post count, including confirmation posts:

bessie: 5
BoomFrog: 8
LaserGuy: 9
Madge: 6
Mark_Cangila: 2
MasterOfAll: 4
moody7277: 4
mpolo: 5
plytho: 6
Sabrar: 2
SuicideJunkie: 10
wam: 5


Mark_Cangila wrote:I need to stop lurking!
Mark, please make a few posts.

Madge wrote:I think Sabrar is just being Sabrar. I mean he's no boomfrog but I wouldn't put a gambit past him.
This is wrong enough to move Madge to the top of my scum list. Recalculating.

Unvote

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:23 pm UTC

@Sabrar – Categorically like Madge in Chaos?

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:29 am UTC

Madge wrote:Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity, bessie!
Stupidity is not a word I associate with you. Not by a long shot. Neither is malice, but that’s not the word I would have chosen. Madge, what’s your opinion of Sabrar’s last post? What do you read in this difference in style?

wam wrote:I would have expected town sabrar to engage with this line. Which I don't think he did unless I missed it.
Um, huh? He went through my list, replied to my points, and failed to note an omission because in my self-aware awesomeness I got them all. You’re answering questions just to make replies, without even analyzing the content.

wam wrote:More a question than a thought " is this normal argument or more?"
Explain this comment. And if this was the question that came to mind when you saw my vote, why not ask it without being prodded?

wam wrote:Also looking back at it, it's very early day 1 for Bessie to be voting. Normally she waits till much later day 1. Don't know if this is AI.
You know, I am almost 100% positive you have tried to throw this same accusation out there and fish for reactions in a previous game, and I replied with this link, but I can’t remember where. Pre-post edit: found it:
bessie wrote:
wam wrote: Just noticed. Bessie that's an early vote day 1 by your standards. Any reason?
Aw wam, and I thought you were reading my posts. See here.
bessie wrote:Vicarin – Indie/scum.

Grrr
Hmmm, I wonder how far back I would need to go to find somewhere I voted early on D1. I’m not sure I have time to go through all my old games. Oh, no, wait, here’s one.
Reinforces the idea that you're not analyzing, you're on autopilot.

wam, you have a couple more unanswered questions from Sabrar directed at you. How about answering them? Reference this post.

Sabrar, will reply to you later, I need to leave soon.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:45 pm UTC

Replies to this post.
Sabrar wrote:Your example just reinforces my point (though maybe I could have phrased it better). You were aware of moody's disposition last year, but you didn't take it into account now and attacked him for it.
As others have noted, moody jokes easily as town or scum, and is self aware that he is opening with the usual bessie-townie-meta joke. I think you need to reread my opening post and consider the common theme throughout those reads, and consider them in context of what you know about me, my posting style, and my methodology.

Sabrar wrote:Yes, you both did the exact same thing. But you FoS-d BoomFrog for it, meaning you think it's scummy. Why did you then deliberately do something scummy?
See above.

Sabrar, I will probably fail the homework assignment. That type of meta read is not my strength.

Sabrar wrote:- LaserGuy is on the right track. 2 townie-points
Hmmmm.

Sabrar wrote:- this is the classic bessie vs Madge we've been all waiting for. It could go either way...
We shall see, perhaps soon.


Madge wrote:By difference in style do you mean the spoilering and structuring? I'm not following. It seems relatively normal sabrar except perhaps for only mentioning a few people and the strange spoiler structure.
Do you not notice anything else that is perhaps different in Sabrar’s posting style in this game than his use of spoilers (which he has done before)? Did you read the content in those spoilers? You should, because if you did, you would not have made the above comment.

LaserGuy wrote:Hmm... I think I'm going to give a hard Townread on this if scum is night chat only since I think a buddy probably would have advised you as to the problems with what you're doing.
Do you mean scum has day and night chat? And you are making the following assumptions:
1. Mafia is actively participating in day chat at a high enough level to influence each other’s posting.
2. Mafia partners are at an experience level where they are able to/feel comfortable with giving advice on post content.
3. Mafia partners are willing to forgo “naturalness” of the new player’s posting style and actively advise.

plytho wrote:Bessie: Checklist is null. The FoSes are a bit weak but this early that’s fine. Scum reads Sabrar, wam and madge. this is a weird post. It feels like bessie is buddying BoomFrog to reinforce her Sabrar vote (which was base on weak reasons imho), but then she unvotes because she wants to push Madge (without voting). Her next post focuses on wam. Confusing.
Re linked post. I am trying to figure out Sabrar’s theoretical posting restriction. One possibility I am considering is that it is tied to the number of posts of other players, thus my post count summary and my request to Mark to make a few posts, which he did not do. That reminds me:
Mark_Cangila wrote:bessie is awesome!
Mark, please make a few more posts, I want you to increase your post count. I am testing a theory.

FoS anyone that appears to be deliberately keeping their post count low.


plytho wrote:Sabrar: Clearly trying out a different style this game. Cautious people would do such things in games where they’re town. But I can see Sabrar using that and use it in a scum game for exactly that reason. This style is very hard to read on my phone and requires me to use two tabs on my computer to match the comment to the post. Looking at other people’s responses to Sabrar I guess others also have trouble following. (Not that great for town :s)
Can you not perhaps think of other reasons that Sabrar might be trying out a different style in this particular game, like other than “because he wants to”? Your two tabs comment tells me you actually analyzed his content (not everyone did). Don’t like the hard to read comment though. The only way it differs from say, my usual style, is that he didn’t post a lot of links/quotes.

wam wrote:Been thinking about this comment and your right. I think it goes further than this though, I think generally it takes me a while to get into games and this is why I'm always scummy day 1.
Hahaha not true.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:29 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Sure, other reasons are possible. Post restriction is the most obvious one and you seem convinced that that's the case. Either because town!Sabrar isn't allowed to say so or scum!Sabrar is lying about it. I don't think it's a very useful thing to pursue and think there might be a reason for Sabrar to play like this that isn't role-related. Although you linking it to post count makes sense and might be linked to someone else's post count through Sabrar's submitted role?
I wouldn’t say convinced. I like to start with considering all possibilities, then discarding from there. But even if it’s not a useful thing to pursue (and I’m not saying it isn’t), why not eliminate a data point, especially if it can be done with minimal effort? Everyone can make at least a half a dozen posts to test this, which they should be doing anyway.

moody7277 wrote:bessie- usual setup spec, grumpy at a few people. actually reading through she seems to be grumpy at most people. vote on Sabrar is serious because she mentions looking for scummates, then unvotes after Madge's blind acceptance post. more responses in most recent post. grumpy bessie is not something I've seen before, but I think she is still town anyway
I’m really puzzled as to why you think I’m not often grumpy. And do you not see a reason for my unvote, when I unvoted?


Unofficial Votals:
wam (2) : plytho, LaserGuy
SuicideJunkie (1) MasterOfAll
Sabrar (1) : BoomFrog
MasterOfAll (2) : Mark_Cangila, wam

Not voting : bessie, Madge, moody7277, mpolo, Sabrar, SuicideJunkie

Deadline: Tuesday

jimMod and diModka, can we have a deadline and a deadline clock?

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 am UTC

mpolo wrote:Unfortunately, there hasn't been a lot of movement in thread.
Cool, then you should have time to do detailed analysis and a reads list.

Madge wrote:@bessie i'd be very interested why you're encouraging people to post more in such a direct way, i can only assume you DIDN'T submit a role that interacts with post contents in some way (don't claim either way because it's against the rules to do so obv), because that fishing would not be allowed if you had. but maybe you suspect someone else did. it's the sort of thing i can see someone doing.
Everyone should be posting without needing to be prodded by me. Like you are; you have an extraordinary amount of content so far this game, by D1 Madge standards. You can assume what you want as to whether or not I am fishing or breaking Rule #7 by speculating. But the Sample Town role PM in the OP contains a posting restriction, so if I think about the example while I consider my setup spec, it is possible for other roles to have posting restrictions as well. And I think it’s fair to speculate based on public mod-provided information. If the mods disagree they can slap a penalty on me.

Madge wrote:mpolo's point about sabrar's complaint about the rule is interesting, but you know how Sabrar is with his Opinions about rules, I think he'd still be upset if he was scum. but again a townie place when he could jump on the sabrar wagon if he was scum.
So Madge, what exactly do you think is Sabrar’s complaint, and mpolo's point, and why is it interesting?

Sabrar wrote:And as I have explicitly linked to, scum!moody went out of his way to not make the same joke.
Both ways it’s still the same joke.

Sabrar, I really liked the previous format more, though it seems like I was the only one. I think it gave me better insight into how you read the game. By the way, I failed at the homework assignment. Is it compare Texas and Chaos to each other? Because I’m not seeing anything yet.

Mark_Cangila wrote:I disagree here. I think SJ could easily be scum if there is daychat. From what I've picked up on, many players on here are very reluctant to advise mafia partners, especially newbies.
Depends on the players. You in particular do not like to be coached, you like to appear natural, so you do not receive a lot of coaching from your partners. Compare to Peaceful Whale and Hari Seldon in Newbie New Year. Or if you want to go back four years, you can read Smalltown PyP, where newbie bessie was being heavily coached by the brilliant scum team of Madge, SDK, and Lawrencelot.

SuicideJunkie wrote:- "Many" threads is an exaggeration. I've read a few (3-5?) recent ones for entertainment, not for studying and taking notes.
Interesting, you said in this post you read DS9, which was so long ago it was before I was even playing regularly.

mpolo wrote:SuicideJunkie has jumped in with both feet, which is to be commended. His content shows that he has done a lot of reading/preparation before starting, so, while I'm inclined to give the newbie some slack, he seems less new than he otherwise might.
Well he implies in the previous post I quoted that he didn’t, that he only casually read a few recent games. And the DS9 Secret Santra from 2013.

MasterOfAll wrote:bessie - seems like normal bessie to me, but being bessie, I'm just neutral on her for now
Interesting, no one ever says that about me. [/sarcasm]

MasterOfAll wrote:Madge - I'm not going to go find it now, but there was 1 specific post she made that gave me strong town vibes
I would be interested in knowing which post you found townie. There are only eight so you should have time to find it before deadline. [/actual request]

BoomFrog wrote: Gambit's are works of art, and you can't force art.
+1, QFT, <3. You don’t need to have a gambit every game, just the ones Vicarin is playing. :P

MasterOfAll wrote:Basically, I'm saying that something in moody's playstyle usually pings me as scummy
Hahaha another thing no one ever says. [/sarcasm]

Hey, is that another Madge post?? That’s like 11 on D1, and some of them actually have a lot of words in them! I wonder again why the atypical D1 enthusiasm? Not that I don’t like it, I’ve been prodding you for more D1 (D2, D3, etc) content for years.

Madge wrote:forgot about:
one more person i'm sorry for forgetting you but POST MORE
Hahahahahaha, Madge prodding plytho for more content . . . Oh me yarm. . . :lol: :lol: :lol:

Post count, including confirmation posts:
Spoiler:
bessie: 10
BoomFrog: 15
LaserGuy: 12
Madge: 11
Mark_Cangila: 8
MasterOfAll: 8
moody7277: 7
mpolo: 7
plytho: 14
Sabrar: 4
SuicideJunkie: 12
wam: 14

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:21 am UTC

plytho wrote:@Mark: why was the wincon stuff bad in alien warfare? Please be detailed in your explanation.
Not liking this. I can see how the misunderstanding could have come from town!Mark, but I don’t think it requires rereading a 29 page game to understand why. plytho, you know Mark’s usual content level, why ask him for a detailed explanation of something from a past game with only about 34 hours remaining, instead of prodding him for some analysis of this game? Something like this:
plytho wrote:@Bessie: could you do a reads list please?

Hmm, bessie being late with a reads list has been a scum tell before. The stuff with the post counts also has a rolefishy feeling to it.
Oh, and please give examples from my recent games of scum!me being late with a reads list (Day and time remaining), and compare it to when town!me has given a reads list in my recent games.

Hmm, and where have I been role fishing? Point to one place I have tried to get someone to reveal their role. Why do you care if I run a post count, or prod people to post? Find something else to throw out there and see if it sticks.

Post count, including confirmation posts:
Spoiler:
bessie: 11
BoomFrog: 18
LaserGuy: 14
Madge: 11
Mark_Cangila: 12
MasterOfAll: 9
moody7277: 9
mpolo: 7
plytho: 18
Sabrar: 5
SuicideJunkie: 17
wam: 18

Mark_Cangila wrote:I think it is pretty typical for me to act as if challenged. It's in my playstyle to act quite defensive when attacked. I showed it when the werewolf question came up in Meta Mafia.
I think part of the issue is that you are now self aware of what other players might consider typical of you.
Mark_Cangila wrote:Mainly when people ask questions I always play to keep myself not-lynched as one of my higher priorities.
It is not your job as town to stay alive. Your duty is to lynch scum. It is true that if you are town, you should try not to get lynched (because you want to lynch scum), but not if it interferes with your primary priorities of scum hunting and facilitating scum hunting.

SuicideJunkie, thanks getting an avatar, it makes it easier to sort through posts. And you probably should compose most of your write ups in a word document, the forum is notorious for eating posts (I lost many in my early games).

SuicideJunkie wrote: Too many trees to bark up at, and they all look the same to me. I'm not expecting to be too useful except as cannon fodder, but by golly I'm going to try.
Do not underestimate the unique advantage you have, reading all of us with a fresh set of eyes, instead of having years of entrenched meta to bicker through.
Spoiler:
bessie’s standard Woof-Grrr based on absolutely no content from this game whatsoever:

Woof
bessie – towniest townie
LaserGuy – can place himself anywhere on this list he decides to on D1
Sabrar – puppy
plytho – usually very townie on D1, but we have a history
SuicideJunkie – new guy goes here
BoomFrog – I think he prefers to be read as scummier on D1, but I usually start him here
mpolo – right in the middle as usual
Mark_Cangila – is trying to develop a hard to read/scummy meta
MasterOfAll – expect him to be a bit rusty
moody7277 – scummy meta but policy not votable on D1
wam – I’m not sure I have ever read him as town
Madge – well like yeah
Grrr
How this matches up with the current game is yet to be decided, but preliminary thought is that it will be remarkably similar.

MasterOfAll wrote:
bessie wrote:
MasterOfAll wrote:Madge - I'm not going to go find it now, but there was 1 specific post she made that gave me strong town vibes
I would be interested in knowing which post you found townie. There are only eight so you should have time to find it before deadline.
It was this one.
Not the one I would have picked (if I absolutely had to pick one), but it is the one with the most words.

SuicideJunkie wrote:2) The only way to get a no-lynch is for scum to unvote and/or revote such that there are only two people being voted for, and both are tied in votals.
If you want to no lynch, you can vote “No Lynch”, as if “No Lynch” was a player. The two-people-no-lynch would require a vote of 6-6, not just a tie.

LaserGuy, yeah, I should work on that Woof-Grrr.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:07 am UTC

Woof

bessie – 185% Labrador Retriever.

LaserGuy – Sorry I don’t have time to waste analyzing my town reads. If you want my attention, try to be scummier tomorrow.

Sabrar – 58% barkless Basenji. :( 42% hopeful he’s got the Answer to the Question.

SuicideJunkie – I like the effort and enthusiasm put in to the game. These things are not necessarily alignment indicative, but good enough for a newbie with an unfamiliar meta to make my D1 not-vote list.

BoomFrog – 185% Ultimate Dog Genius. Oddly took my opening post more seriously than I would have expected. Is BoomFrog, so I’m hoping for magical things on D2.

mpolo – There’s no way I’m going to get a reliable read on mpolo on D1. mpolo, please make at least three posts and raise your post count as soon as you are able. Mahalo.

moody7277 – 100% moody. I policy not-vote for moody on D1, but wouldn’t currently vote for him in this game anyway, based on his content.

plytho – Subtly prodding me the entire game, ok. Pretending he doesn’t understand the post counts is odd enough, but why be against something that is encouraging content? Don’t like his page 4 interaction with Mark, feels to me like plytho is trying to steer the conversation toward something that is not going to be that important in determining the lynch. But it also feels like many conversations I have had with him, regardless of either of our alignments, so will reanalyze how I feel tomorrow.

MasterOfAll – His reads feel recycled and noncommittal. I totally do not buy his reason for having Madge at the top of his Nice list. Oh wait, he didn’t give a reason, he just pointed to a post and the vibe of the thing.

Mark_Cangila – Playing exactly like normal, hard to read, slightly scummy Mark, and he knows it. I feel though, that this time he is actually scum.

Madge – Not 100% Madge, and that’s a concern. Opens as usual with an excuse for poor D1 content, but this feels more artificial than UsualMadge. Just like the rest of her content. Madge, answer my question in this post.

wam – Even if I correct for the scummy meta, wam is scummy. Right from the start, his RVS for MoA feels wrong, as does his call out of me in the same post, see my comments here. His content until page three was completely on autopilot, until I pointed it out.

Grrr


Vote: wam

Would likely be willing to move to Madge, depending her answer to my question.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:45 pm UTC

@plytho, nice, I’ll add “make early ordered reads list” to my checklist. [/sarcasm]

plytho wrote:You've been trying to figure out Sabrar's restriction/power and maybe others by looking at post counts and have been explicitly asking Sabrar about it.
Ok, I see this now. I’m not trying to figure out Sabrar’s power. But you’re right, someone may have cleverly submitted a role that would reveal it by posting restriction. And whomever that is will be my D1 tunnel in the next game.

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:plytho – Subtly prodding me the entire game, ok.

Not sure what you're saying here? Do you think I shouldn't prod you? Does the attention bother you?
Um, I believe I said "ok".

plytho wrote:Why do you think I'm against it? I'm questioning your motives. You're not encouraging content, btw, your encouraging post counts.
If someone won’t even post (Madge etc), then how are they going to provide content? And I’m generating content because unwillingness to contribute is suspicious.

plytho wrote:You're almost literally saying you don't care about mpolo's content and want a higher post count.
mpolo is not going to be lynched today, unless he flat out claims scum. I’ve already prodded him for reads here and nothing, so at this point I will take what I can get.

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:Mark_Cangila – Playing exactly like normal, hard to read, slightly scummy Mark, and he knows it. I feel though, that this time he is actually scum.
That is such a moody read :D
That read has in it everything necessary to justify my scum read. If you don’t see it, FoS you.

wam wrote:@Bessie given you feel Mark is scum this time why is he not in your votables pile?
If Mark is scum, it should be pretty obvious and we can save him for later in the game. I’ve discussed lynching obviscum late in the game previously, in painstaking detail, I think in Newbie New Year. No one else agreed with me. Will look for it if I have time, that game has a lot of content, and I don’t think it’s the best use of my time right now.

Sabrar wrote: Also you have to ask yourselves: whose flip will give you the most info? Who had the most connections to other players? That person is not Madge.
You never will allow Madge to be lynched, will you? And she bet on that, right in her opening post, that you would read both her and me in relation to each other; that I would attack her regardless of my alignment and her content, and you would naturally view her as the injured party in need of a defender. So Sabrar, what do you think of Madge’s comment in this post, the one I questioned her on here?
bessie wrote:
Madge wrote:mpolo's point about sabrar's complaint about the rule is interesting, but you know how Sabrar is with his Opinions about rules, I think he'd still be upset if he was scum. but again a townie place when he could jump on the sabrar wagon if he was scum.
So Madge, what exactly do you think is Sabrar’s complaint, and mpolo's point, and why is it interesting?


plytho wrote:It shows Mark isn't looking for scum, but trying to say the right thing.
Oh hahaha, when I said the same thing it was “such a moody read”.

SuicideJunkie wrote:Why must everybody appear sketchy?
I'm just waiting for Bessie to roll in the mud with the rest of us now.
I feel like nobody would have voted for Madge if I hadn't misinterpreted the tied vote thing.

(1) It’s the nature of the game; (3) Madge has a scummy meta and is capable of earning votes without your help so don’t give yourself so much credit; (2) :
Spoiler:
Bessie rolling in the mud.jpg
Bessie rolling in the mud.jpg (95.32 KiB) Viewed 1090 times


Unofficial Votals:

wam (4) : MasterOfAll, bessie, BoomFrog, Mark_Cangila
MasterOfAll (1) : Sabrar
Mark_Cangila (1) : plytho
Madge (4) : SuicideJunkie, LaserGuy, moody7277, wam

Not voting : Madge, mpolo


Post count, including confirmation posts:
Spoiler:
bessie: 13
BoomFrog: 25
LaserGuy: 14
Madge: 11
Mark_Cangila: 14
MasterOfAll: 9
moody7277: 10
mpolo: 7
plytho: 28
Sabrar: 6
SuicideJunkie: 23
wam: 25

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:54 pm UTC

plytho I'm on my phone will reply to yo D2 if I'm here.

I'm still convinced wam is scum and he's voting for Madge. So is plytho. Hmm.

Unvote wam
Vote: MasterOfAll

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:01 pm UTC

What do you care? The lynch is decided and my intentions are known.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:21 am UTC

Overnight thoughts:

plytho wrote:Yes, and I said I did not understand what you meant by it, so please answer.
What? I mean it’s ok for you to prod me, but following that comment I’m noting an example of where I think you’ve got it wrong. What is unclear about that? Reference entire read:
bessie wrote:plytho – Subtly prodding me the entire game, ok. Pretending he doesn’t understand the post counts is odd enough, but why be against something that is encouraging content? Don’t like his page 4 interaction with Mark, feels to me like plytho is trying to steer the conversation toward something that is not going to be that important in determining the lynch. But it also feels like many conversations I have had with him, regardless of either of our alignments, so will reanalyze how I feel tomorrow.


plytho wrote:That's not really your style. Also doesn't make a lot of sense to ask for three posts instead of one.
See underlined in above quote.

plytho wrote:I don't quite understand why they're the same, but I think I kind of read over "and he knows it" the first time. This was mostly meant as a joke because "Mark - Playing exactly like normal. I feel though, that this time he is actually scum. " Sounds exactly like something moody would say.
My post was pointing out Mark was aware he is presenting his content to cultivate a specific interpretation. I spelled it out in my previous post, two posts above the one to which you are referring:
bessie wrote:I think part of the issue is that you are now self aware of what other players might consider typical of you.
I interpreted your remark in that you were pointing out the same thing.

moody7277 wrote:Well, one more reason to hate vote shenanigans.

Conditional Fos bessie and wam.
What shenanigans? Per the rules, there was no way to force No Lynch. And I wasn’t putting anything even close.

Unofficial Votals after I moved my vote (a few minutes before deadline):
wam (2) : MasterOfAll, Mark_Cangila
MasterOfAll (3) : Sabrar, BoomFrog, bessie
Madge (5) : SuicideJunkie, LaserGuy, moody7277, wam, plytho
Not voting : Madge, mpolo

So moody, why the conditional FoS of me?

wam on the other hand. . . Nice safe pseudo bus there wam. Pre-post edit: or was it because you didn’t want to end the day with a vote on town?

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:plytho I'm on my phone will reply to yo D2 if I'm here.
Looking forward to it, although I'm a bit taken aback by the strength of your response to what I felt was some light prodding.
I took the day off of work, was out Christmas shopping and made the mistake of bringing my husband, and was trying to get him a beer so he would chill out and I could finally have a chance to check the thread. The above comment was meant to be informational so that you knew I wasn’t at my computer and you didn’t assume I was ignoring your post.

Final D1 post count, including confirmation posts:
Spoiler:
bessie: 16
BoomFrog: 27
LaserGuy: 14
Madge: 11
Mark_Cangila: 14
MasterOfAll: 9
moody7277: 12
mpolo: 8
plytho: 37
Sabrar: 6
SuicideJunkie: 25
wam: 30


New thoughts:

I have nothing I feel like claiming.

So wam, how about those cop results?

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:17 am UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:Also, what is the vote on Wam doing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xqefRtReMI

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:54 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:Why did so many people follow my vote of all people?
See here:
bessie wrote:(3) Madge has a scummy meta and is capable of earning votes without your help so don’t give yourself so much credit;
And if you never really wanted to lynch Madge, why didn’t you switch?

SuicideJunkie wrote:No NK is clearly scum hijinks. What is the typical goal of that? Making a roleblocker believe they guessed the scum assigned to do the NK?
Trying to decide if this is newbie town or newbie scum.

Some possibilities for no NK (in no particular order):
1. Mafia (serial killer, town vig, etc) withheld.
2. Killer was roleblocked, jailed, etc.
3. Target was doctored, jailed, rolestopped, etc.
4. Target commuted.
5. Target was bulletproof.
6. The kill is delayed (poison, arsonist, etc).
7. The kill was redirected to Madge.

SuicideJunkie wrote:Also, it is too bad Madge didn't cast the deciding vote. Could have saved herself.
Last night I would have thought this unlikely. Now I think wam didn’t care which of Madge or MasterOfAll was lynched.

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:wam on the other hand. . . Nice safe pseudo bus there wam.
That did not look like a bus to me. I disagree that it was safe.
Look at it in context. He could move off Madge safely and on to scumbuddy!MoA, as it was after official deadline, mpolo was done, MoA could switch to Madge for self preservation, SJ plytho moody had a chance to switch from Madge to MoA and didn’t, wam could always switch back if he saw Madge to log on to “avoid shenanigans”, etc .

plytho wrote:ninja: interesting result from wam. I would have picked Sabrar instead of LaserGuy, though.
Out of those three I'm most suspicious of bessie. But none of them are to be underestimated.
Do you not see anything else interesting about his results?

moody7277 wrote:
bessie wrote:So moody, why the conditional FoS of me?

The condition wasn't met insofar as the wagon you and wam were apparently trying to steer the vote away from turned out to be town.
Oh, so now you don’t mind that wam tied the vote? This is unexpected in light of your shenanigans comment, and your previous concern.

MasterOfAll wrote:Regarding wam, although I still find his reasoning for voting me extremely flimsy, I am feeling a bit better towards him for sharing his ability on D1 and results here early D2.
Same question to you as I had to plytho.

BoomFrog wrote: I probably won't be able to post or read much until Tuesday or Wednesday. Quote ping me if you need a specific reply. I haven't read anything from D2 yet.
1. What did you post after deadline? Can you post it now so we can all see it?
2. Do you have any night results you wish to claim?
3. Please answer the above in separate posts and make three additional posts.

Re power switching. As LaserGuy theorized yesterday, a three person mafia team already potentially knows six powers. wam and MoA claimed. Madge was probably dead and would flip. If the night kill was successful, there would be another flip. If they swap two townies, they would likely claim something. So I can see scum swapping two townies just to get more role reveals, and to cause confusion. I can’t see scum swapping with town unless they know it is a power they want (like a vig) or a power they want to take away from town (like a cop). I can’t see why town would swap anyone at this point (actually I can see Madge doing it), so there’s a possibility that it’s a hidden mechanic.


D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 2
BoomFrog: 1
LaserGuy: 0
Mark_Cangila: 2
MasterOfAll: 1
moody7277: 2
mpolo:2
plytho: 4
Sabrar: 0
SuicideJunkie: 4
wam: 3

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:00 pm UTC

MasterOfAll wrote:@bessie, Sabrar - did you receive the message?
I didn’t realize you wanted an immediate claim.

moody7277 wrote:Well, based on several points bessie made, she is really pessimistic about wam. If he like I missed plytho's vote for Madge, he may have figured he was doing more to muddy the vote than otherwise. bessie's poistion in the late day flurry didn't have as much leverage, so it's correspondingly less indicative, although she is being oddly sensitive about it.
Why are you speculating, and making up an excuse to explain wam’s end of day vote shenanigans? Why not, hmm, ask wam to explain himself? This is very unlike you moody.

BoomFrog wrote: Posting restrictions are supposed to make the game more fun.
I agree completely, and I fully support posting restrictions for the sake of the spirit of the game, or as an actual requirement (power/bonus/penalty related). I think some of the most fun games (at least for me) were in part because of posting restrictions. But there are some limitations as to what I would support. I absolutely do not approve of any posting restriction that hinders someone’s ability to participate in the game, like say for example, something that required a player to have the lowest post count at the end of the day (contrast with the sample town role pm in the OP, which encourages participation).

FoS anyone that still doesn’t get it, and anyone that appears to be deliberately keeping their post count low.

SuicideJunkie wrote:I'm not sure how it would make sense to redirect a kill to someone who is already dead tho.
There are hints in the mod content that perhaps Madge’s fate was not fully sealed until end of night. But regardless of that, it would make great sense for a town redirector to target someone scummy and redirect them to Madge (if the mods allowed it).

MasterOfAll wrote:@bessie - sorry, I'm not picking up whatever you are hinting at regarding wam's result.
plytho wrote:I don't know what you mean.
Do you not find it interesting that this is a great result for scum, and exactly the result BoomFrog was trying to avoid here?
BoomFrog wrote:Btw, try to pick all town players. If you get it right we can get a whole block of confirmed town. Much more useful then getting a vague votablepool that may one have only one scum out of 3.
It would take three lynches (or less depending on NK) to confirm or disprove wam’s result.

wam wrote:1) someone took booms vote and stuck it on me all day.
2) the vote on me is linked to Bessie post counting (I had the most)
3) completely seperate powers but the vote removal power is probably held by scum as I can't see town reasons for giving it to boom.
1. ModBold says BoomFrog is voteless. I would expect Bold to be the truth, even in a moderately bastard game (and per game specific rule #5).
2. My post counting/posting is for informational purposes only and in itself is unrelated to any game mechanics (as far as I know). The post counts themselves may have something to do with game mechanics, don’t know haven’t thought of it much. [/sarcasm]
3. Be creative. In other words, why do you assume everyone views BoomFrog as confirmed town?


Unofficial votals:

wam (1) : Finger of Mod
Mark_Cangila (3) : plytho, moody7277, wam

Not voting : bessie, BoomFrog, LaserGuy, Mark_Cangila, MasterOfAll, mpolo, Sabrar, SuicideJunkie

D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 3
BoomFrog: 6
LaserGuy: 1
Mark_Cangila: 4
MasterOfAll: 3
moody7277: 3
mpolo: 3
plytho: 9
Sabrar: 1
SuicideJunkie: 6
wam: 6

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:07 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:Not asking people a lot of questions is unlike me? Have you been paying attention? :? :lol:
Why not quote the whole thing moody? Dismissing, and then making excuses for another person’s vote shenanigans is very unlike you. But perhaps your style is evolving. So is it also now acceptable for me to game the game, or perhaps use the role-pm-gambit? :P :lol:

[/sarcasm]

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:11 pm UTC

bessie wrote:3. Be creative. In other words, why do you assume everyone views BoomFrog as confirmed town?
wam, you forgot to answer this.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:46 pm UTC

plytho wrote:You can do it with one if that's all you care about.
Well yeah, if people weren’t predisposed to ignore other suspicious content and treat claimed cops as non-votables.

plytho wrote:Here's what I think you think:
#1, 2, 4. Why #3?

So plytho, let’s say my stubborn little puppy brain is completely off (wouldn't be the first time), Sabrar does not have a mod-imposed post restriction, and Sabrar’s unusually light content is just an evolution of his style (like how moody now doesn’t mind vote shenanigans :P ). Why does it bother you that I am stubbornly trying to test this anyway, that I am prodding people to post and analyzing their reactions, and that I am running a post count in addition to and not instead of providing other content?

plytho wrote:Not posting would test it (but impede Sabrar if the hypothesis is true).
Awww... :shock: :lol:


D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 6
BoomFrog: 6
LaserGuy: 4
Mark_Cangila: 4
MasterOfAll: 3
moody7277: 5
mpolo: 4
plytho: 13
Sabrar: 1
SuicideJunkie: 6
wam: 7

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:35 pm UTC

MasterOfAll wrote:For the record, I am pretty solidly in the anti-post restriction camp, excepting the ones that are pure silliness and do not inhibit playing the game. For instance, the following quotes came from a game where these players were forced to pay me compliments:
This is so awesome why didn’t I think of it when we had to submit posting restrictions for WoT3. . .

plytho wrote:I don't think you're completely off. I think your assumptions are too narrow, though. That's what #3 is about. I think there are more possibilities regarding Sabrar's limited posting. You seem to limit it to a post restriction that is unrelated to the rest of his power (that's why you keep saying you're not rolefishing, you're just restriction fishing) I think it might be related to his role which makes what you're doing rolefishing. What's bothering me is that you're putting that much focus on this one theory and I do feel it's limiting your other content.
I think that if Sabrar has a post restriction, it was submitted with the role, so the submitter already knows Sabrar has it, therefore any “rolefishing” I may be doing is irrelevant. If the theoretical submitter is mafia, the mafia may be carefully conspiring to keep their post count low and keep Sabrar quiet, with the added bonus of throttling the overall game content. Even if the submitter isn’t mafia, they might be doing this to test the theory, similar to how I am doing the opposite to test the theory.

Total complete fabrication based on the sample town role in the opening post, presented for illustrative purposes only:
Spoiler:
Character Name: Sir dimochka the Inarticulate

Flavour

You are well known for your lurking, often requiring several mod prods throughout the course of the quest. When you do post, your insightful letters explaining your thoughts and guesses about whose skills mean what are always handy in the inevitable debates you encounter when on quests.

Role: Lurky McLurkFace

Mechanics: You must end each game day with the lowest post count. If you do, you will be informed of lots of information about the setup that really nobody should know.

And I really don’t agree this is limiting my other content. If anything, the overall low posting due to Christmas is limiting my content. You know my style well enough to know that replying to posted content is what works best for me, and I have trouble with meta-type reads.

plytho wrote:I also think it makes sense for the mods to add a GF to scum's powers to balance for all the cops if a GF wasn't submitted
I am of two minds of this, but it relies on metagaming the mods and the setup. I think GF is more likely with a two member mafia team, and less likely with a three member mafia team, and wasn’t determined by the random role distribution. On the other hand, could the mods have added it after the role distribution because as many have pointed out, three cop powers in the hands of town could be game-breaking? So, keep the integrity of the Secret Santa design, or overrule it for gameplay reasons?


Unofficial votals:

wam (3) : The Almighty Mod, Sabrar, MasterOfAll
Mark_Cangila (3) : plytho, moody7277, wam

Not voting : bessie, BoomFrog, LaserGuy, Mark_Cangila, mpolo, SuicideJunkie


D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 7
BoomFrog: 7
LaserGuy: 4
Mark_Cangila: 5
MasterOfAll: 6
moody7277: 5
mpolo: 5
plytho: 15
Sabrar: 2
SuicideJunkie: 6
wam: 7

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:22 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Given the choice, I would lynch Mark first though.
Unless mpolo is scum, we know Mark actually has a cop power. We don’t know if wam is lying or not. I guess it doesn’t matter, scum will lie about their result anyway.

Mark_Cangila wrote:I personally support a Wam lynch. His role seems really odd to be in the same game as my new role.
Irrelevant, the roles were written independently by players. Duplicate powers happen often, especially because we’re a forum full of creative people and there are usually several JoAT- or inventor-type submissions. We had a game with multiple redirectors a few years ago.

@moody, do you remember which game that was? Do you have an updated reads list? Please make a post, I've seen you lurking.

D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 8
BoomFrog: 10
LaserGuy: 7
Mark_Cangila: 9
MasterOfAll: 6
moody7277: 5
mpolo: 5
plytho: 18
Sabrar: 3
SuicideJunkie: 6
wam: 7

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:02 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:Since I'm listing everybody living, I don't target anyone in particular.
Do you know if your power is considered targeting, like do you actually target everyone?

plytho wrote: On the subject of mpolo claiming what might have been Mark's role and action: I don't think it's necessary. If Mark is under pressure to be lynched, let him claim. Mpolo can be the check.
I like this idea more than mpolo claiming Mark’s role.

BoomFrog wrote: Well if the gift switcher dosn't cooperate then we know they are scum, since it's an obviously beneficial move for town. Even in the situation that wam is scum with a actual-cop power then town gets to steal the power. This is an obvious "use powers to gain advantage" move that town!Sabrar should be interested in.
And why do you think wam has the most beneficial power for town? Or let’s say he does, what if the switch gives scum!wam a power that is more beneficial for scum than a cop, like a vig? I think this is a bad idea unless everyone’s power is known, and we can determine who has the least beneficial power for scum, and switch that person with wam.


Unofficial votals:

wam (4) : Vote of Mod, Sabrar, MasterOfAll, Mark_Cangila
Mark_Cangila (4) : plytho, moody7277, wam, BoomFrog

Not voting : bessie, LaserGuy, mpolo, SuicideJunkie


D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 9
BoomFrog: 18
LaserGuy: 7
Mark_Cangila: 11
MasterOfAll: 7
moody7277: 7
mpolo: 6
plytho: 19
Sabrar: 4
SuicideJunkie: 6
wam: 7

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:24 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote: Cop is one of the best possible roles for town, even comparison cop. At the very least MoA seems to have a useless power. mpolo's "townie side" of his power sounds awkward to use well and I'd bet wam's comparison cop is better.(mpolo/Mark don't confirm or deny this. It's all hypothetical for now.) Also, switching moody and wam would let us prove both of them at once. I don't want to pick one of those three options specifically because that will help scum interfere better. I also wouldn't object to switching moody with MoA/mpolo to test moody really has his claimed power.
You claim you want to try swapping wam’s power to save a potential valuable cop power, which wam may be lying about and the night swap would reveal the truth. mpolo (your towniest read) claims Mark has a valuable cop power that you apparently don’t mind lynching into oblivion. Why not lynch wam and swap Mark with someone?


Request modprods on SuicideJunkie and wam.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Also surprised you missed it immediately afterward.
Yeah me too.

Vote: wam

wam is at L-1.

I’ll be at work a deadline. If anyone wants a response from me please try to post in the next 12 hours.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:13 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote: If scum Mark is on the team with the gift switcher then this makes sense. But I do feel more likely that the gift switcher is town...
Why? What would town gain from the switch? Confusion and two power claims?

BoomFrog wrote: @Bessie and LG: Do you feel Sabrar is town?
Woof!

SuicideJunkie wrote:Given the three cop result claims, I believe at most two of them are real, and I don't really trust any of the players involved.
What is your reason for the underlined?

MasterOfAll wrote:I don't have anything else to say here on D2, but maybe someone else still does?
Well there’s wam’s promised reads post. And everyone should post an updated ordered town-scum list.

mpolo wrote:I have no objection for further extensions, if someone wants to request one.
We have an extension. How about some reads and a town-scum list?

I should be available at new deadline.

D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 12
BoomFrog: 26
LaserGuy: 10
Mark_Cangila: 14
MasterOfAll: 9
moody7277: 9
mpolo: 7
plytho: 23
Sabrar: 6
SuicideJunkie: 10
wam: 9

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:11 am UTC

mpolo wrote:we have like 70 people from all over Europe in the house, and it is eating away at time for "important" things like mafia…
I hate it when that happens. :lol:

MasterOfAll wrote:I doubt that we will get anything useful from wam, but ok.
I feel that all content (or deliberate lack of content) is useful, somehow, if you know how to read it correctly.

BoomFrog wrote: @Sabrar: I'll get to those when I can. Why are you not trying to break the game? The only reason I can think of is that you are disgruntled scum.
Hmm, BoomFrog has a point. Sabrar, hmmm, sometimes gets distracted by the mechanical aspects of the game over analyzing scummy content (X-men?? :P ). But BoomFrog, can Sabrar not be disgruntled town, not scum, with an aspect to his role he doesn’t like?

BoomFrog wrote: @Bessie: just remembered your question: My feeling that the gift switcher is town is not strong, but I think a real motivation to use the power for many players would be "because it's fun". Withholding is boring.
I do not understand why anyone would do something illogical just because it is fun (alas not sarcasm :? ).

Mark_Cangila wrote: If you find someone you think is scum, lynch them.
+1, QFT, dude you read my mind . . .

SuicideJunkie wrote:
bessie wrote:
SuicideJunkie wrote:Given the three cop result claims, I believe at most two of them are real, and I don't really trust any of the players involved.
What is your reason for the underlined?

Too many cops, duplicate power claims, and likely mafia involvement.
See here. Roles were written by and randomly distributed among the players, and powers are NAI. Duplicates are not only possible, they tend to be not uncommon. I know this is your first Secret Santa game, but how did you miss all the times we’ve been trying to explain this to Mark? And with the amount of game mechanics analysis you’ve been doing?

wam wrote:Bessie why did you put me at L-1, especially when I have self hammered before? Seems like a odd risk for town bessie to take?
Tied voting resolution (game specific rule #4). Deadline was in 28 hours and had not been extended (and I didn’t think it would as jimbob said he wanted 48 hours notice). I realized that there was a reasonable chance this could end with a 5-5 split, and if there is a tie between you and Mark, I preferred you. So, why didn’t you hammer?

BoomFrog wrote: wam's read list is terrible. Mpolo is 3rd scummiest? With a confirmed starting cop power!?
Really BoomFrog? :roll:

@mpolo, @moody : would you mind please making a few posts? I am testing a theory that there may be a role in the game whose power is related to having the lowest post count each day. I am also trying to determine if scum is trying to hinder this role’s participation by keeping their post counts low. It would help with my analysis if you would both raise your posts counts.

D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 13
BoomFrog: 31
LaserGuy: 11
Mark_Cangila: 18
MasterOfAll: 10
moody7277: 9
mpolo: 8
plytho: 28
Sabrar: 7
SuicideJunkie: 12
wam: 11


Ninja'd, back later.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:37 am UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:It is possible that all the cops are real and town, but I'd still expect the submissions to be more creative.
I'll queue up previous santa threads for reading.
You don’t need to read the previous Secret Santa games to understand how the setup works, you only need to read my previous post. I think you’re focusing too much on game mechanics, which is usually one of my favorite things too, but because of the way Secret Santa is set up you’re not going to be able to game the game the way you can a normal game. Balance, fair distribution of powers, non-game breaking roles, etc are not guaranteed.

This is my summary of your D2 content: What was up with the lynch, what’s going on with those night results? Setup speculation and game mechanics. This post had some player analysis, but you didn’t draw many conclusions in it. More game mechanics.

Setup spec and the like is fine but more important are your opinions on other players. I think the best contribution you can make to help town is to so an ordered town-scum list, even better if you include a brief read of each player. If all you talk about is game mechanics (and basing your analysis on your ideas of a fair and balanced setup) then you’re active lurking.


Woof
bessie – Waggy lab.
Sabrar – Still a puppy.
moody7277 – He can stay here if he makes a few posts.
MasterOfAll – Not on my lynch list today.
LaserGuy – Not seeing the reason for making that last post. Will come back to him tomorrow.
mpolo – Overwhelmed as usual. Make three posts or slip farther down this list.
SuicideJunkie- Active lurking, could be uncertain newbie scum.
plytho – I’m still suspicious of his resistance to my post counting. Interesting, he has me lower on his list than wam, who he thinks is making sense.
Mark_Cangila – His D2 content almost entirely defending himself to plytho (I can sympathize a bit, having been in the same position more than once), and almost no analysis or opinions. Mark, we need some reads and/or an ordered list.
BoomFrog – Is quite capable of providing townie logic as scum, and equally capable of providing scummy logic of town (= Is BoomFrog). Has put an interesting effort into trying to find reasons not to lynch wam.
wam – I FoS’d him for his first post, and he’s done nothing to raise my opinion of him this entire game.
Grrr

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:38 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:Maybe I can manage another post later, but I fear not.
You’re good. Thank you, and I hope you feel better soon.

D2 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 15
BoomFrog: 35
LaserGuy: 13
Mark_Cangila: 18
MasterOfAll: 10
moody7277: 11
mpolo: 13
plytho: 33
Sabrar: 8
SuicideJunkie: 14
wam: 11

MasterOfAll wrote:I don't have anything else to say here on D2
You’re up. There’s been more than a page of content since your last post. Do you have anything to add before end of day?

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D2)

Postby bessie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:35 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Why did no-one but BoomFrog respond to this? Do you all disagree so strongly it's not even worth responding to? Do you like losing cops?
My feelings can be deduced from this:
bessie wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote: If you find someone you think is scum, lynch them.
+1, QFT, dude you read my mind . . .
I don’t like losing town, I do like lynching scum.


LaserGuy’s reason is. . . reasonable. Will think about it.

BoomFrog wrote:No one was really unusually scummy D1 compared to their standard content, our collective town to scum list practically matched Bessie's "no content meta reads list".
I was wondering if anyone actually read and thought about that list.

BoomFrog wrote: wam is lynch-bait.
So is Madge (Snark, Lataro, Vytron, Peaceful Whale, . . .). So is moody, which is why I policy don’t vote him on D1 (which you used to scum read me in Crossover). But it is D2 and content is expected to improve. You can make some allowance for a scummy player’s meta in reading them, but it can’t be your entire read, like “wam is always scummy and its NAI so he’s not votable”. If so, what then is the purpose of analyzing content in this game? I’m sure Sabrar can link to arguments I’ve had with him on meta vs content.

BoomFrog wrote: As I quickly said earlier, I'm not trying to look only from math, so that's not very relevant. Including regular scum hunting in the mix my conclusions seem sound to me.
Is wam included in your regular scum hunting?

SuicideJunkie wrote:I'm not the best at people, but here's my feelings. I'll check how it lines up with others later.
Yes, this is the way you want to do it. We want to know how you feel about everyone, not how you feel your list compares to other lists. And it’s suspicious if you need to use other’s reads to make your own.

MasterOfAll, it’s safe for you to post. Unless wam decides to post, 11 will be the lower bound.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:00 pm UTC

Thank you Vicarin for replacing mpolo.

Vicarin wrote: Sabrar: Fascinating change in how he's posting compared to all his previous games. Don't believe it's any kind of posting restriction.
So you think Sabrar suddenly decided on such a dramatically different posting style? :?

Vicarin wrote:bessie: Mostly pretty standard bessie from my POV . However, her fixation on the post counts as noted by plytho has been rather weirdly out of character. Overall pretty townie. How about a claim or two though? :lol:
How is it out of character for me to speculate on the setup, and to fixate on some odd game mechanic related theory? You need to read WoT2.

I have nothing I feel like claiming. :P

Sabrar wrote:Why was Mark not the nk if town? He was unlikely to get protected.
Why wouldn’t Mark be protected? mpolo had a town lean on Mark.

Vicarin wrote:@LaserGuy: does your power give any indication of what happens if a power that can't be used every night is swapped onto someone else? If moody's power (assuming it is usable every 2nd night) had been swapped onto someone else N1, do you have any idea if the other person could use it N2?
This seems a bit role fishy, even for you.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:33 am UTC

MasterOfAll, I received your message. Woof. How about this time you confirm to me?

SuicideJunkie wrote:I'm curious to see if Madge or Boomfrog actually return from the castle. Madge may be too late, and I don't have any hope for Plytho.
I doubt that any of these players will return to the game, at least in any way that can directly affect it, and you should probably focus your attention on the players that are still alive. How does BoomFrog’s flip affect your read of Mark? (reference this post)

Vicarin wrote:@bessie: If you think that Sabrar has some kind of posting restriction, then it's a type of restriction not shared by most people, despite it being in the sample role in the OP. You think he was just really unlucky and the restriction was given to one of the people who would get hit hardest by it?
I’m not sure what you mean by this, unless you just haven’t read my previous posts carefully. In this post I first speculated Sabrar may have a posting restriction. BoomFrog understood what I what I was thinking but it seems not everyone else did. When questioned on it directly, Sabrar declined to comment. The sample role I fabricated in this post used the sample in the OP as justification for speculating that a posting restriction was possible, but it is completely different from “Sir Jimbob the Eloquent” whose restriction encourages participation and posting. As I already said in the linked post, I think the theoretical posting restriction would be submitted with and part of the role. As such, this complete role would have been randomly assigned to a player.

plytho was especially skeptical of my post counting, but I think that it perhaps wasn’t entirely worthless. Compare the D1 post counts with the D2 post counts. Some of the changes in post counts between D1 and D2 is interesting.
Spoiler:
Final D1 post count, including confirmation posts:
bessie: 16
BoomFrog: 27
LaserGuy: 14
Madge: 11
Mark_Cangila: 14
MasterOfAll: 9
moody7277: 12
mpolo: 8
plytho: 37
Sabrar: 6
SuicideJunkie: 25
wam: 30

Final D2 post count:
bessie: 17
BoomFrog: 35
LaserGuy: 13
Mark_Cangila: 18
MasterOfAll: 10
moody7277: 11
mpolo: 13
plytho: 33
Sabrar: 8
SuicideJunkie: 14
wam: 11
And if anyone is still skeptical that posting restrictions are possible, see BoomFrog’s flip.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:48 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:1) Someone submitted a lurking role that is at least somewhat playable as town and scum. As you've said, I'd hope no-one would actually do this in the first place, seeing as it's working against the game.
Someone submitted the ventriloquist role. And that person will be a candidate for my D1 tunnel in our next game.

Vicarin wrote:Such a restriction is only really important and noticable if it ends up on someone who normally posts very prolifically, and never changes their style.
I’m not sure that the intent was to submit a role that would reveal itself. I submitted Motivator for last year’s Secret Santa and it was apparent who had the role on D1, but it wasn’t my intent to make the recipient obvious, I just liked the role and didn’t think it through. It was just lucky a coincidence for mafia.

Vicarin wrote:Do you think scum believes that Sabrar does have a posting restriction, and is trying to mess with it?
Yes.

Vicarin wrote:Anyway, unless you're going to come out against SuicideJunkie in particular, I don't think this is a particularly fruitful line of analysis, seeing as we've got 2 days of votes and a bunch of cop results to work with.
Perhaps, but where’s the harm? As I explained to plytho, it is in addition to, not in place of my other content.

Sabrar wrote:Vicarin replaced mpolo during the night with sufficient time being there to submit his own action, so mpolo's choice didn't matter.
Mark is lynch-bait (to steal a phrase), he's about the scummiest town I've ever seen (I think).
A replacement might be willing to consider/keep the previous player’s pre-submitted action (more so because it is mpolo, but perhaps that’s just me).
Mark is competing with BoomFrog for the title. . .

Sabrar wrote: @bessie: who is your scum-team if Mark and MOA are town?
Will think about this today. I am currently suspicious of SuicideJunkie.

SuicideJunkie wrote:By D2, I'd used up most of my pre-game ideas, and the volume was a bit much to keep up with.
I don’t understand this comment. Have you no ideas since the game started?

No coal.

D3 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 2
LaserGuy: 2
Mark_Cangila: 1
MasterOfAll: 1
moody7277: 3
Sabrar: 2
SuicideJunkie: 2
Vicarin: 10

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:16 am UTC

MasterOfAll wrote:@bessie - Yellow labs are great. One of my favorite breeds.
Woof! And (1) yes; (2) no.

Mark_Cangila wrote:No coal for me.
Ok, how about some reads instead? Please make some posts.

Vicarin wrote:Almost 1/3rd of the way into D3, and we've got 2 or 3 posts from most people today? What on earth?

Everyone, put out some more content, especially reads! Last year had almost twice the content with about half the players on their D3 LYLO after 2 days.
There was a lot of content D1 and D2. :lol: Too bad you missed it! :P And, um, yeah, D3 was a little longer than it should have been last year. :wink:

SuicideJunkie wrote:On review I'm liking Laserguy even less.
Suggesting I'm scum if daychat because I'm new makes even more sense if he knew daychat existed and that I wasn't part of it. My posting hours certainly haven't helped that impression.
Can you link to the post(s) to which you are referring?

moody7277 wrote:I don't see any strong interactions with any particular person. Right now I'd put him at a +3.
That’s a pretty high rating (I think). Can you post an updated town-scum so I can see how that compares to everyone else?

SuicideJunkie wrote:One thing I'm learning is that things are never easy to see in this game, and it is way too easy to overreact to stuff. I already knew I was below average on social reading.
I also find it amusing that the fact that Bessie seems so townie is the main thing that is concerning about her.
If this game was easy, we probably wouldn’t be playing it.
I’m starting to wonder why you have such a strong town read on me. What have I done that is particularly townie?

D3 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 3
LaserGuy: 5
Mark_Cangila: 2
MasterOfAll: 6
moody7277: 5
Sabrar: 3
SuicideJunkie: 5
Vicarin: 12

Unofficial votals:

LaserGuy (2) : Vicarin, SuicideJunkie
SuicideJunkie (1) : Sabrar

Not voting : bessie, LaserGuy, Mark_Cangila, MasterOfAll
Can’t vote : moody7277

Ninja'd.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:27 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:- Due to the possibility of 2 deaths overnight Vicarin's ability becomes very dangerous to use, it could put us beyond LYLO if town loses a vote or if scum gets double-vote. The only way to prevent this (and also not interfering with LaserGuy) is for him to block me tonight (obviously).
The safest thing would probably be for Vicarin to withhold. We still have three unclaimed powers and one that can’t be verified. Scum may be able to interfere with Vicarin’s target.

Vicarin wrote: @bessie: what's your theorized scum team looking like?
My current pick for mafia team contains wam and SuicideJunkie.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:29 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Ok, I'm assuming that you've got a pick for at least one indie of some kind too then. Who is that?
I’m still trying to decide if the setup is 9-3 or something else. I keep coming back to 9-3 feels right to me, 9-2-1 and 8-3-1 do not. If we have indies, it might be 8-2-1-1, with one indie that can win with town, and one that can’t. If we have indies, I can make an argument for anyone, with Mark, MoA, LaserGuy being strongest (in that order). I’m not really interested in devoting my limited time to it now though, as I think we need to focus on mafia, and the indie discussion is a distraction.

Mark_Cangila wrote:Also, I'm also gonna FOS SJ and FOS Moody. I'm split between which of the three to vote for. I'm leaning toward LG or SJ.
What are your reasons for the FoS? Is the moody FoS because of the cop results as you discussed in this post? Why SuicideJunkie?

Mark, can you make some reads independent of any cop results, just based on player content? Or at the very least, can you make an ordered list today, and do reads as you have time, perhaps focusing on your scum picks first?

moody7277 wrote:Looking back, it is amazing how much grief she was getting about prodding people for content.
+1, QFT, grumble grumble.
moody7277 wrote:Apparently I was wrong about grumpy bessie being so uncommon
8-)

Counting posts is fast, and easier to do often. I think it just seems like a lot because I usually only post at night (as opposed to throughout the day). When I did more, it was intentional, to prod the lurkers.

MasterOfAll wrote:Sabrar and bessie and moody (I am assuming there are some still unknown things about his role) claiming tomorrow sounds good to me.
I’m fine with claiming tomorrow, I’ll even claim first if that is the general consensus. I agree SuicideJunkie should probably claim today.


Vote: SuicideJunkie


Reasons: D1 there were a few minor odd things, like it seems he was being intentionally ambiguous about his mafia experience at first, and about how many games he had read (according to this post, 3-5 recent games, later amended in this post to include the DS9 Secret Santa game from 2013). There is also the auto-meta-read of me, which in the past would have been highly suspicious and I’ve ranted in detail and at length about it in previous games (insert a dozen examples, available upon request). This would actually make sense if SJ had been a long-time lurker, and had read all the 2017 games, especially Secret Santa 2017. But he claims he’s only read a few games from the past year, and as I pointed out, my record this year is only about 50-50, so my meta hasn’t been the topic of discussion that it has been previously (note: in the five most recent games, I was town in 1, scum in 2, and didn’t play 2). So where did this read come from?

Suspicious posts on D2: attributing no NK to mafia withholding and some odd posts re Madge, see my reactions to both here. Also note decreased post count on D2 (and now on D3), as previously stated I believe that on D2 the mafia team thought Sabrar has a post restriction, and was keeping their post counts low.

I’ve already pointed out SuicideJunkie’s focus on game mechanics on D1 and D2 (and see this post where I question his misunderstanding how Secret Santa is set up because of his focus on mechanics). See also here where I warn him that he is dangerously close to active lurking. There is a shift away from discussion of game mechanics on D3, could it be because of my prodding? I am skeptical because he still doesn’t have a lot of analysis or reads, so the shift may just be because he no longer has wam’s cop result to analyze, and shift discussion focus to finding scum in BoomFrog/bessie/LaserGuy.

SuicideJunkie, you still need to answer this:
bessie wrote:I’m starting to wonder why you have such a strong town read on me. What have I done that is particularly townie?


D3 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 5
LaserGuy: 10
Mark_Cangila: 4
MasterOfAll: 10
moody7277: 9
Sabrar: 6
SuicideJunkie: 6
Vicarin: 18

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D3)

Postby bessie » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:51 pm UTC

Mark, I’ve seen you lurking. Please make a few posts, preferably with some game content in them. If you need some ideas, you can refer to my previous post.

SuicideJunkie, I’m hard to read, or you could say I’m easy to town read, that’s why I was lynched in Texas Hold’em. There is a reason why and an associated continuing joke about this for. . . many years. My point was that I don’t see how you independently came to that conclusion by reading two games, especially these particular two games (Texas and B99).

SuicideJunkie wrote:Since it is down to this, my power is self-defence/revenge. I suspect it may have been tailored for a newbie.
Setup and distribution of roles has already been discussed, several times. And I see bomb as a very challenging role for a newbie. But that’s not what you claimed, is it?

I am 99% certain I will not be available the last few hours before deadline, as I will be at work and in a meeting with upper management. If anyone wants a response from me to anything, please post within the next 12 hours.

D3 post count:
Spoiler:
bessie: 6
LaserGuy: 10
Mark_Cangila: 4
MasterOfAll: 11
moody7277: 9
Sabrar: 7
SuicideJunkie: 7
Vicarin: 22

Unofficial votals:

LaserGuy (2) : Vicarin, SuicideJunkie
SuicideJunkie (3) : Sabrar, bessie, MasterOfAll

Not voting : LaserGuy, Mark_Cangila
Can’t vote : moody7277


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