Mafiascum Round 6 - Enter The Matrix - Day 4

[drconcon]

Neo is an annigram for One!

[drconcon]

anagram.*

[OverBored]

Also an anagram fior eon which is an alternative spelling of aeon. these are the rough equivalents of angels in gnosticism, somewhat pertaining to the soul also.

[OverBored]

Oh, and Jesus is an aeon too...

[Blast]

Oh, and Jesus is an aeon too...

Idea! MafiaScum Round 7 - Christians vs. Judas vs. Romans. The game starts with Jesus on the cross instead of the dead mayor.

But that's neither here nor there.

I like the way that it's set up - Neo will be a big part of the success or failure of the town since he has so many one-shot abilities.

It will also be interesting to see how the machines do, since we won't be sure of how many there are at any given moment. I mean, it's a maximum of three + number of nights that have passed, but we won't know if they get roleblocked.

[kellsbells]

It will also be interesting to see how the machines do, since we won't be sure of how many there are at any given moment. I mean, it's a maximum of three + number of nights that have passed, but we won't know if they get roleblocked.

Er, don't you mean the Smiths? They're the ones that multiply each night.

[Blast]

Yes, of course I meant the Smiths. :facepalm:

[Silknor]

Since the Seraph knows who the Oracle is, wouldn't s/he just protect the Oracle every night? The Seraph's role is described as the bodyguard of the oracle, so wouldn't that be the sole purpose of the Seraph, to protect the Oracle?

While this was addressed to the mods, it's not a question for us. That's solely an issue of strategy.

[Gojoe]

Ok, I am awake now. Does anyone have any ideas?

[Bulvox]

yes, you.

[Sarr]

Persecute those that have not pledged? Iunno.

[OverBored]

but the pledge is nigh on useless. We need to get discussion going that pertains to the thing, or I'll do the random vote thing, that always starts things off. Normally badly though.

[kellsbells]

Mm, first days are getting agonizing after so many rounds, because we all know the pitfalls of random votes/slip-ups. What game was it that started with a night? The first Kingmaker one? I'm starting to think that might be a better set up, simply because it initiates discussion.

[OverBored]

I know it is a better format, but it seems a little unfair on the people killed. I guess it is better to actually get the game going though...

[Bulvox]

except for the one person who dies...une see wasn't too pleased.

[kellsbells]

I know it is a better format, but it seems a little unfair on the people killed. I guess it is better to actually get the game going though...

Yes, it's the sad cost of an effective start...

Actually, it does suck. I'm thinking that all mafia games are just really awkward to begin. I hate random votes, but voting no-lynch is even worse. Ugh.

[Nebuduck]

I still think the mods should allow the oracle to post her message. It wouldn't really have a big effect in the game, and it would only require the tweaking of a couple of rules.

Oh well.

[OverBored]

Voting No lynch is essentially the same thing as starting at night I guess...

[OverBored]

It is a fairly blunt roleclaim though neb..

[Gojoe]

unless the mafia post a poem as well...

[Nebuduck]

OK, a fix for my plan:

The inventor proposes a "day-oracle" device to the mods. Hopefully they accept it. The day oracle device does what the oracle does, but is one shot. Furthermore, the inventor should make the device in such a way that the mods give the cryptic message to us, so the inventor doesn't have to reveal his identity. This should be favourable to the mods too, since it'll jump start the game.

[OverBored]

It doesn't matter whether the mafia post one or not, it is still a roleclaim. It may not be true when a mafia does it but that doesn't change things. Interesting idea neb but we are a day off and lacking the ability to control whom it is revealed to.

[Vox Imperatoris]

I think saying you are a townie isn't really a role claim, it should just be everyones natural default claim... however in this game their are no townies...

This is from two pages back, but I just wanted to clear it up—yes, there are. Seven of them, in fact.

*puts hand over a copy of The Matrix*
I am pro-town. I am an enemy of Smith and the Machines.

I also second lifting the prohibition of role-claims. A well-designed game should not be vulnerable to a mass roleclaim.

[OverBored]

I'm happy to hold the roleclaim for the timebeing. it makes the game more tactical.

[Silknor]

It is unlikely that the entirety of the roleclaim prohibitions will happen at any time. The reason for this is what happened in Crazy Round 2. With that many roles, every town power role would roleclaim, thus eliminating maybe 1/3rd of players from suspicion unless the Mafia roleclaim those town power roles too. For each pair of power roles, if you lynch both you're guaranteed a Mafia. MAJ and I wanted to use more power roles, a practical consequence of this is that roleclaim becomes more problematic with more power roles. That was a conscious design choice.

[Nebuduck]

OK, I'll tell you that I discussed the idea with Silknor. He said that it was within the mods power to allow the device to work on the same day, and that it could give the poem straight to the thread from the mod, not going through anyone. He said he'd have to discuss it with other mods, but he thought it could potentially work.

[OverBored]

Hwats the point in asking a question in PMs only to paraphrase a mods response and your question in the thread.

[Nebuduck]

Well, because I asked it on IRC, as a kind of "so what if" - it wasn't really specific to the game. I asked why he didn't want the oracle to reveal the message, just as general discussion. He said he didn't want to have the game turn into a poetry discussion, and that sort of thing. I said "Well, that could be fixed with a one shot oracle, but we don't have one unfortunately" and he proposed using an invented device. We then fleshed out the ideas, and I came and proposed it here. I didn't want to say I'd been talking to him because of exactly that response - "Why didn't you ask it in on the thread".

[une see]

except for the one person who dies...une see wasn't too pleased.

I certainly was not pleased.

It is unlikely that the entirety of the roleclaim prohibitions will happen at any time. The reason for this is what happened in Crazy Round 2. With that many roles, every town power role would roleclaim, thus eliminating maybe 1/3rd of players from suspicion unless the Mafia roleclaim those town power roles too. For each pair of power roles, if you lynch both you're guaranteed a Mafia. MAJ and I wanted to use more power roles, a practical consequence of this is that roleclaim becomes more problematic with more power roles. That was a conscious design choice.

Yes, Crazy Round 2 was severely unbalanced due to people being able to roleclaim (well, the 5 lynches without a single mafia kill didn't help either). Roleclaiming is fine when there are vanilla townies, but in this game, with so many power roles (Vox, you are wrong about there being townies. Everyone either has a role, or is part of some kind of masons group, so there are no townies.), it becomes much too easy for the town to win.

[OverBored]

Yeah, it wasn't an accusation or anything, just seemed counter-intuitive, but fair enough.

[Sarr]

Vox, you are wrong about there being townies. Everyone either has a role, or is part of some kind of masons group, so there are no townies.)

Um, no. There are 24 people playing. 9 Town power roles, 7 Redpill townies, 3 Smiths, and 5 Machines.

[Sarr]

EBWOP - Unless I missed it somewhere that all the townies are part of a mason-group, but that wouldn't make sense - It'd be way too easy to win.

[Vox Imperatoris]

I don't want to do a mass-roleclaim now or anything—that's no fun, but the oracle, least should be able to post the messages.

[Vox Imperatoris]

EBWOP: Yeah, they weren't too obvious about the townies, but there are seven of them—it's just not listed as a role in the role explanations.

[jayhsu]

I don't agree that the Oracle should roleclaim. This would mean Seraph would HAVE to pretty much spend every night protecting him/her.

The anonymity helps.

[crucialityfactor]

I'm just going to put this out there. 16/24 roles are Town aligned (correct?) and of these 16, 9 of them are power roles. Odds are we will definitely hit a pro-town player with a random vote. There are a lot of people in this game and very little time for discussion.

I think we should use as much time as we can discussing roles/tactics and if there really isn't anything suspicious we shouldn't be afraid of a no vote.

Odds are that we will put ourselves in more of a disadvantage through a random vote than just taking our chances with one night of no lynch. And we're at least giving all our power roles a chance to do their thing in the night.

Just putting that out there.

Any thoughts?

[Blast]

I'm just going to put this out there. 16/24 roles are Town aligned (correct?) and of these 16, 9 of them are power roles. Odds are we will definitely hit a pro-town player with a random vote. There are a lot of people in this game and very little time for discussion.

I think we should use as much time as we can discussing roles/tactics and if there really isn't anything suspicious we shouldn't be afraid of a no vote.

Odds are that we will put ourselves in more of a disadvantage through a random vote than just taking our chances with one night of no lynch. And we're at least giving all our power roles a chance to do their thing in the night.

Just putting that out there.

Any thoughts?

Using your numbers, we have an 8/24 chance of hitting scum of some sort, 9/24 chance of hitting a town power role, and 7/24 chance of hitting a redpill.

Smith, on the other hand, has a 4/21 of hitting machines, 8/21 of hitting a power role, and 7/21 of hitting a redpill. The remaining 2/21 is death for targetting Neo or the Deus, (3/21 if we count the Seraph's protection, and I'm ignoring Neo's one shot protection)

Machines have a 3/19 chance of hitting a Smith, 9/19 of hitting a power role, and 7/19 of hitting a redpill.

Basically the only upside to giving the machines a free kill and the Smiths a free assimilation is that one or both will target someone protected by the Seraph or Neo. The odds of this happening are substantially lower than the odds we'll lynch them just by random voting.

[OverBored]

I guess it comes down to the relative values of mafia and pro-town power roles. If we lynch then we have a 1/3 chance of getting an anti-town and a 9/24 chance of hitting a pro-town power role. Now for the sake of comparison lets say they are both exactly 1/3. Then by not lynching we are saying power roles on average are more valuable than mafia, IE We would rather have a power role and a mafia than neither in the game. this awkward to actually decide, but I guess the power role is better and so i guess in theory I agree... It just doesn't seem right though. I guess the problem is that we also sacrifice a chunk of information. We get info from how people respond to the voting to lynch someone, especially if they happen to be mafia.

[jayhsu]

Heh perhaps we should weight the power roles differently to get a more accurate answer.

[OverBored]

this could easily become one of those weights algebra questions:

Two day cops and the oracle is equal to Neo and Trinity
Neo is equal to the oracle and morpheus
Trinity plus morpheus = ??