Rules and Noob Guide.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby New User » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:40 pm UTC

This might belong in the meta discussion thread, but since it's a response to the wiki ownership, I'll point out that xkcd already has a wiki. I don't know what its purpose is, or who you'd have to coordinate with to get permission to add mafia stuff to it.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby wam » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:51 pm UTC

I was bored so had a glance through the newbie guide and I think the definition of Cult is off?

Timings have changed a lot.

Others thoughts?
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Xenomortis » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:17 pm UTC

Cults are typically defined by recruitment.
And I've never heard of Kingmaker being used to mean something other than "a player who can determine the outcome of a game they can no longer win".
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby lynx » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:07 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:I've never heard of Kingmaker being used to mean something other than "a player who can determine the outcome of a game they can no longer win".

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=85953

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby wam » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:25 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:Cults are typically defined by recruitment.
And I've never heard of Kingmaker being used to mean something other than "a player who can determine the outcome of a game they can no longer win".


How about this a re-write

Cult
This is a group of anti town, it normally starts with 1 or 2 people but can recruit. This is like the scum version of the masons. So every night they gain a new member. Once they control half the votes they win.

lynx wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:I've never heard of Kingmaker being used to mean something other than "a player who can determine the outcome of a game they can no longer win".

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=85953


It's the distinction between kingmaker the role and kingmaker the situation.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby New User » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:49 pm UTC

I don't think it's a good idea to imply that Cult is the scum version of Masons, because that implies that Masons are town. In xkcd mafia, I have always seen Masons as meaning players who can chat via PM, regardless of which alignment they have. It seems to be assumed that each member of the Masons does not know the alignment of the other Masons.
This is contrary to the definition on mafiascum wiki, which says Masons are town. It could be a newbie trap to refer new players to the mafiascum wiki, and then have them participate in a game with a Mason group. The new player might assume the other Masons are town, if they read that on the mafiascum wiki.
I just noticed that the OP says of Masons, "Beware they might accidentally invite a mafia." I suppose this is a good warning, only in games where the Masons recruit. I have seen games here that have a Mason group that begins the game with each player ignorant of the alignments of the other Masons, and I'm pretty sure I've seen games where there is a Mason group from the beginning that has players of mixed alignments.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby DaBigCheez » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:00 pm UTC

New User wrote:I don't think it's a good idea to imply that Cult is the scum version of Masons, because that implies that Masons are town. In xkcd mafia, I have always seen Masons as meaning players who can chat via PM, regardless of which alignment they have. It seems to be assumed that each member of the Masons does not know the alignment of the other Masons.

This is contrary to the definition on mafiascum wiki, which says Masons are town. It could be a newbie trap to refer new players to the mafiascum wiki, and then have them participate in a game with a Mason group. The new player might assume the other Masons are town, if they read that on the mafiascum wiki.
I just noticed that the OP says of Masons, "Beware they might accidentally invite a mafia." I suppose this is a good warning, only in games where the Masons recruit. I have seen games here that have a Mason group that begins the game with each player ignorant of the alignments of the other Masons, and I'm pretty sure I've seen games where there is a Mason group from the beginning that has players of mixed alignments.

Or, you could pull a Gargoyles Mafia, and have the mason recruiter (and only starting member of the mason group) be scum from the beginning 8-) (edit: still not sure that was a good idea, but it is the case that "in XKCD forum mafia, there have been 'mason groups' which started with no town members at all")
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby freezeblade » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:18 pm UTC

New User wrote:I just noticed that the OP says of Masons, "Beware they might accidentally invite a mafia." I suppose this is a good warning, only in games where the Masons recruit. I have seen games here that have a Mason group that begins the game with each player ignorant of the alignments of the other Masons, and I'm pretty sure I've seen games where there is a Mason group from the beginning that has players of mixed alignments.


I think the mason catagory needs a re-write involving this after the events of Chairman Maofia. A noob (that's who the guide is for right) will assume that masons are pro-town from the start, or that they share win conditons, where, around here seems true less of the time. Because it says so in the guide. This may be true else-where, but around here? not so much.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Adam H » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

Well, masons are in the 'basic town roles' category. Which should say nothing about complex roles. Similarly, roleblocker is listed as a basic townie role, but it is also obviously in a 'semi-complex scum role' category (and it's a really really common scum role). In the same way, mason-recruiter could be a semi-complex scum role.

I agree that in vanilla games mason recruiters must always be town (or at least the setup rules must explicitly state that mason recruiters can be scum).

But anyways, new rules would be a bajillon times better than this outdated crap. I bet if someone wanted to make a new "rules and guide" thread, a forum mod would sticky it and lock this one. Or they could just edit the OP of this thread.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby ConMan » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:38 pm UTC

Given that it's a point of divergence from other mafia forums, it should be mentioned somewhere that here mason != town. I actually came up with the idea for Neighbourhood Mafia because of reading about the "Neighbour" role on the MS wiki, which is what everyone else calls the not-guaranteed-town private chat role.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby wam » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:47 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:But anyways, new rules would be a bajillon times better than this outdated crap. I bet if someone wanted to make a new "rules and guide" thread, a forum mod would sticky it and lock this one. Or they could just edit the OP of this thread.


I would be happy to when I get a gap, am traveling later in the week might make a good project for a plane ride!


Edit am also having a look at the modding guide as well.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby lynx » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

Let me know if you need a hand! I'm on holiday as of 5 hours ago.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby mike-l » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:06 am UTC

So I just signed up for my first (well second, but the first got canceled) game of mafia. What is the common practice on people who know each other in RL? I have a friend I have been chatting mafia with while I read through old games, and my chatting had gotten him interested. My guy feel is that we should avoid games together, but wanted to get opinions.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:31 am UTC

mike-l wrote:So I just signed up for my first (well second, but the first got canceled) game of mafia. What is the common practice on people who know each other in RL? I have a friend I have been chatting mafia with while I read through old games, and my chatting had gotten him interested. My guy feel is that we should avoid games together, but wanted to get opinions.

This has happened before, I believe. It's perfectly acceptable for you to play in the same games, so long as you stick to the rules and do not discuss the game outside of the thread until it's over (or you're both dead). If you don't feel like you can do that, then don't play in the same games.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby mike-l » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:47 am UTC

Yeah I get that. Maybe it's just my auditing background (avoid the appearance of impropriety), but I feel like if I was a third party and found out that two other player in my game regularly talked outside of game mechanics, I'd take issue even if I trusted them both to 'play fair'. (My current recommendation to my friend is to wait for another game to sign up for, but on the other hand, if it's not as much of an issue as I think it is, more signups = more games = better)

Edit: either way, I'll be asking the mods of the particular game before we both sign up, but I wanted to get a feel for general consensus before wading into it at all
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby SDK » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:49 am UTC

I once knew a couple who played mafia together. You'll be fine. Just don't cheat. :wink:
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby mike-l » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:00 am UTC

Well, I don't believe anything any of my exes say, so a couple wouldn't worry me too much :D.

Anyway I'll see what other people have to say, prodding my friend to see if he's even serious or it was just a drunken 'yeah I'd do that'
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Vytron » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:58 am UTC

There is no problem whatsoever as long as you don't reveal anything about the game to your friend, the common rules of no outside discussion apply but otherwise that he's your RL friend doesn't have any bad implication.

But, yeah, you're not supposed to convince that you're town to each other in RL, you're meant to do that in the game thread :)

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby mike-l » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:44 am UTC

Alright. Well I was going to pm you (vytron) if he actually looks like he'll sign up (I probably still will as an FYI) but I now feel much more comfortable inviting him to come join us than I initially was.

Edit: Turns out it doesn't matter, he doesn't have time to play.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby 12obin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:13 am UTC

Checking this out because it seems neat, though likely more investment of time and focus than I'm up for right now.

But the fact that it's called lynching makes me cringe a bit. I'm not personally descended from slaves, my heritage is much more recently African than that, but the reality of lynch mobs isn't all that far behind us. (Arguably not behind us at all and just transformed. Yada yada white supremacy, yada yada police brutality.)
I'm not trying to pick a fight and I'm not really trying to make anyone do anything differently. I just feel better voicing it than not.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby UniqueScreenname » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:17 am UTC

Wikipedia wrote:Though racial oppression and the frontier mentality in the United States have given lynching its current familiar face, execution by mob justice is not exclusive to North America, but it is also found around the world as vigilantes act to punish people behaving outside of commonly acceptable boundaries. Indeed, instances of it can be found in societies long antedating European settlement of North America.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby 12obin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:33 am UTC

Yes I realize that. I'm saying that it causes me personal discomfort for personal reasons. That's all.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Lunch Meat » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:39 am UTC

FWIW, I agree with you. The fact it's an accurate word doesn't change the fact that using it lightly is somewhat insensitive. I would personally be fine with changing it.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Adam H » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:11 pm UTC

To me, lynch has very little connotation other than Mafia. But if we were to change it to something like "kill", then it would conjure up in my mind images of gruesome murders.

"Banish" would work for a nice version of mafia, though. And night kills could become "capture", or something.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby dimochka » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

I'm sure numerous people will disagree with me but, given the fact that this word is clearly not aimed at a certain subset of a population/minority in this instance, I don't know if I agree with changing it. Every single one of these words could have a negative connotation towards someone. Additionally, if you think about it, we would essentially need to change all of our flavor to match the new type of word we use. For example, the first thing I think about when I hear "capture" is human trafficking, while the more literal version comes second.

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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Madge » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:52 pm UTC

There's no reason to keep 'lynch', so if I ever do happen to mod a game, I will try and think of an alternative word to describe the elimination round, because it does seem insensitive to me now that it's been pointed out. But I wouldn't try and enforce it or anything. Just perhaps spread it through osmosis???
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby UniqueScreenname » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:05 pm UTC

As a black person with parents from that time period, it never bothered me. I agree any word would have bad connotations, and it may hurt more than help to change it. This is my official opinion. Whatever is decided, let it be so.
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Re: Rules and Noob Guide.

Postby Djehutynakht » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:16 am UTC

My opinion is to keep the word "Lynch".

To be quite plain speaking, to claim that the only way in which this word applies is to Black Americans from a particular period in time is inaccurate, and honestly I'm not sure if it's even right to do so.

The word and act of Lynching has a very long history that can, very honestly, be applied to peoples of all times, ages, races and groups, and I'm not sure we have any right to demand that it be treated in the aspect of one people only. And, to say, why should we object only in the context of the lynching of these particular people, and not all others subjected to the practice (to this very day)?

I myself have hosted one game (Salem Witch Trials) in which Lynching was used in a semi-historically correct context. Sure, the hangings of the Salem Witches were technically done through legal process, but in spirit the act was nothing more than a lynching itself. (A tangent: One thing has different connotations to different people. While I've heard some say that they associate the noose with Jim Crow, growing up not far from Salem MA, I've always associated it with the Witch Trials foremost, and old English executions)


On the other hand, people who are uneasy about it are uneasy about it. Simple as that. If it really did become a big concern here, I'd consider alternatives for the comfort of the community, but I don't assign the word context to a particular group. I give it its literal definition: Any vigilante action taken by a group of people with no official authority to execute a person.


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