Large and in Charge: Mafia Round 7: MAFIA WIN!

For your simulated organized crime needs.

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Gojoe
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Confim in Thread

Postby Gojoe » Thu May 21, 2009 12:37 pm UTC

We have confirmation from everyone but Bravewolf now. CF, we need a replacement for him.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Confim in Thread

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu May 21, 2009 1:13 pm UTC

bravewolf127 wrote:confirm


Gojoe...you fail.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Confim in Thread

Postby Gojoe » Thu May 21, 2009 1:14 pm UTC

Damnit! It is his lack of avatar!
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Confim in Thread

Postby Sungura » Thu May 21, 2009 1:47 pm UTC

Everyone should get an avatar.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Confim in Thread

Postby crucialityfactor » Thu May 21, 2009 3:08 pm UTC

Vox Imperatoris wrote:A new day had broken on the peaceful frontier community of xkcd Village; however, this day was not like any other. In the middle of the town, the bodies of the mayor and magistrate were found dead, killed in cold blood and placed next to a sign proclaiming it to be the work of the Sicilian mafia.


AKAnotu wrote:Oh my god! The mayor! Gorram mafia, how could they do such a thing!?! Did anyone see this happen?


Jahoclave wrote:I can't really say I'm sad about that. Good riddance. All they did was tax, tax, tax while the rest of us hard working folk suffered! We should probably thank the mafia for offing them! It's not like we all didn't want to anyways. And what had they done for our schools? Nothing, that's what!

With both the mayor and magistrate dead I would also like to announce my candidacy in the upcoming special election fort both Magistrate and Mayor.


Silknor wrote:I find it suspicious that you know the magistrate is going to die (and that you don't care about the mayor


The Moo Prophet wrote:Ignorance is bliss, no? So, now that you know you hate him, what have you got to say for yourself?


drconcon wrote:Ima kill the whole town.


The not so peaceful community of XKCD Village has come under siege from the evil and relentless Mafia once again. Unlike the more recent battles between Good and Evil there are no saviors to be found. No wise professor, no master of the Matrix, not even a single Pokemon. The only protectors that remain are the lone remaining Police officer, the town physician, and an amateur inventor. This is truly the people's battle, the outcome will surely rest on their shoulders...

22 Players- 12 to lynch

Day 1 Go!
Last edited by crucialityfactor on Thu May 21, 2009 4:15 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Sungura
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Sungura » Thu May 21, 2009 3:26 pm UTC

That opening post makes me smile. Ah the good ol' days. :D

In the words of drconcon - Ima gonna kill the whole mafia.

*starts on a mafia hunt*
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Confim in Thread

Postby Silknor » Thu May 21, 2009 3:33 pm UTC

crucialityfactor wrote: No wise professor, no master of the Matrix, not a single pokemon to be found. The only protectors of the town that remain are the lone remaining Police officer, the town physician, and an amateur inventor. This is truly the people's battle, the outcome will surely rest on their shoulders...


COMMIE!

And nice intro post.
Nikc wrote:Silknor is the JJ Abrams of mafia modding

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Rakysh » Thu May 21, 2009 4:05 pm UTC

Communist mafia should happen. Or at least cold war mafia.

*writes down*

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Gojoe » Thu May 21, 2009 4:08 pm UTC

Rakysh wrote:Communist mafia should happen. Or at least cold war mafia.

*writes down*
Been done in IRC
michaelandjimi wrote:Oh Mr Gojoe
I won't make fun of your mojo.
Though in this fora I serenade you
I really only do it to aid you.
*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

Feeble accompanying guitar.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby kellsbells » Thu May 21, 2009 4:53 pm UTC

Gojoe wrote:
Rakysh wrote:Communist mafia should happen. Or at least cold war mafia.

*writes down*
Been done in IRC
Yeah, and it was not so great, actually.

CF, bravo on the intro text. I take off my flavor-writing hat to you. This game has me all a-grin with nostalgia.
A good pun is its own reword.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby MartinW » Thu May 21, 2009 5:06 pm UTC

OK all. This is a nice vanilla game, should be fun.

I think the town's biggest asset is the traitor. Since he can't claim or do anything similar he would probably leave subtle hints to be followed after he's dead (his role will be revealed) about who's mafia. He would also try to influence the lynch so while he's alive he's probably going to look like a cop. This will also add an interesting dimension since the mafia will be even less keen to get one of their one lynched because he could be the traitor. So they won't sell each other out unless they're sure he's not the traitor.

Otherwise the game seems pretty normal, the hitman stops the cop claiming so he'll have to be subtle and the inventor might do something interesting but yeah.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Silknor » Thu May 21, 2009 5:44 pm UTC

the mafia will be even less keen to get one of their one lynched because he could be the traitor. So they won't sell each other out unless they're sure he's not the traitor.


What? Why would the mafia not want to get the traitor lynched?
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby MartinW » Thu May 21, 2009 7:23 pm UTC

Silknor wrote:What? Why would the mafia not want to get the traitor lynched?

Because then everybody would see he was the traitor and look back and see his attacks on mafia members. It's a bit like NK'ing a cop, his investigations all get confirmed. But unlike a cop the traitor has already done all his investigations at the start of the game and will reveal them by his behaviour. So unlike killing a cop the mafia doesn't reduce the investigation done, it just confirms them all. The mafia need to either kill him soon (before his attacks and analyses are enough to show who's mafia) or in the later game leave him alive and try to convince the town he's wrong (after he's left enough evidence, but can't claim and is so trying to influence the town indirectly).

Later in the game he could try to get himself lynched deliberately (think Jester). But even if he does the mafia still don't want to NK him as it'll basically be wasting a kill on someone that the town would kill anyway.

I personally think the traitor is going to be a big advantage for the town. If you look at the balance you see the mafia are crawling with powers while the town isn't. I think we may want to somehow hide the traitor by all acting like one (much attacking of players, I don't know), but last time I tried to hide a power role by getting everybody to be one it failed badly (Dr concon's zombie game).

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby MartinW » Thu May 21, 2009 7:25 pm UTC

EBWOP:

...by getting everybody to act like one it failed badly (Dr concon's zombie game).

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby MasterOfAll » Thu May 21, 2009 7:55 pm UTC

Hmm, so here are the things that intrigue me the most about this setup:
1. I really hope the Godfather makes a mistake and kills one of his loyal followers, since it would be really nice to get rid of scum that way.
2. I am wondering exactly what the traitor is allowed to do. I mean, if he just puts together a list, and says all the mafia "seem scummy" and all the rest of the players "seem town", is that allowed? He is not "directly" saying who is scum, but as Martin points out, once the traitor dies we will be going back and checking out everything the traitor said.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Silknor » Thu May 21, 2009 8:58 pm UTC

MartinW wrote:
Silknor wrote:What? Why would the mafia not want to get the traitor lynched?

Because then everybody would see he was the traitor and look back and see his attacks on mafia members. It's a bit like NK'ing a cop, his investigations all get confirmed. But unlike a cop the traitor has already done all his investigations at the start of the game and will reveal them by his behaviour. So unlike killing a cop the mafia doesn't reduce the investigation done, it just confirms them all. The mafia need to either kill him soon (before his attacks and analyses are enough to show who's mafia) or in the later game leave him alive and try to convince the town he's wrong (after he's left enough evidence, but can't claim and is so trying to influence the town indirectly).

Later in the game he could try to get himself lynched deliberately (think Jester). But even if he does the mafia still don't want to NK him as it'll basically be wasting a kill on someone that the town would kill anyway.

I personally think the traitor is going to be a big advantage for the town. If you look at the balance you see the mafia are crawling with powers while the town isn't. I think we may want to somehow hide the traitor by all acting like one (much attacking of players, I don't know), but last time I tried to hide a power role by getting everybody to be one it failed badly (Dr concon's zombie game).


You have it wrong. The Mafia WANTS the traitor dead. I know from experience how the Mafia acts in this situation. If the traitor makes the mistake of only casting suspicion on mobsters, it becomes incredibly obvious who the traitor is and he will die. The traitor has to survive to late game to be useful (barring cheating). The best thing the traitor can do is to take control of the Mafia when the godfather dies. The second best is to be around when it's LYLO to prevent a speed lynch.

What can the town do to help the traitor? Acting scummy like you suggest probably just gets a bunch of townies dead. Given that the traitor's primary goal is surviving till later on, expect the traitor not to act like a rabid accuser but exactly like any skilled mafia would.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Brooklynxman » Thu May 21, 2009 9:32 pm UTC

I agree with everything the town does once the traitor is dead, and suggest we stop telling the mafia what to do about the traitor mid day 1 (before they can communicate in private and decide). We'll know what they decide when the traitor ends up dead. Honestly.
We figure out what all this means, then do something large and violent

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Azrael001 » Thu May 21, 2009 10:44 pm UTC

The back and forth about the traitor has left me thinking that either Silky or Marten are scum (if not both, they could be distancing...)

As I'm 50-50 on them right now
Vote: Martin
FoS: Silknor
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Sungura » Fri May 22, 2009 12:15 am UTC

I'll be honest...I'm not following these walls of text well. With my knowledge of how the game works, wouldn't the traitor want to out the mafia but in a sly way? I mean, they aren't just going to call them out, that'd be stupid. And Martin's posts are super confusing, Silky's at least make sense. Martin's are just...weird.

Also, with traitors we really risk a whole WIFOM situation too, and the more I read what Martin and Silky are saying it just seems more and more WIFOM'y and I personally am going to leave it alone for now.

I am a little concerned with Az's fast vote. This is a good set of players in this game. I don't like how Az is voting without knowing anything more. He seems to be looking for an easy day one lynch.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Silknor » Fri May 22, 2009 12:32 am UTC

Could you explain what you found suspicious about me Azrael?

I gave some advice to the traitor, and provided warning against what I felt was a dangerous strategy.

For those of you who have seen me in game with Martin before, I almost always argue against his ideas. We have very different ways of thinking about the game and that often leads to this sorts of conflicts. That doesn't mean I suspect him, I just think he's wrong about how the town and traitor should/will act.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Azrael001 » Fri May 22, 2009 12:43 am UTC

Both of you have good points, but the traitor knows that (s)he'll be killed if outed. (S)He also knows that (s)he needs to try to out the mafia without naming names. There isn't really all that much more to talk about. The idea of townies acting scummy to mask the traitor is horrible, as the whole point of the game is to try lynch the people that seem the most scummy. In fact, it's even worse, because the mafia know who among the people acting scummy are supposed to be on their team. The only thing townies acting like traitors will do is hide the traitor from the town.

I always people who argue back and forth. I either think that one person is trying to subvert the town, or it is two scum trying to distance themselves.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Sungura » Fri May 22, 2009 1:04 am UTC

Azrael001 wrote:I always people who argue back and forth.
My dear sir, you are missing a verb. You always <what> people?
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby une see » Fri May 22, 2009 1:11 am UTC

Okay, yeah, the townies should act scummy thing is really stupid. And I think Martin's ideas wouldn't be unreasonable IF cf hadn't put so many restrictions on what the traitor can actually do in this game. I don't think cf would allow the traitor to just make a list saying s/he thinks the following people are suspicious, because after s/he dies, town would basically know all the mafia, and that's kind of violating Traitor Rule #2. I think, with this kind of restrictive setup, the best thing the traitor can do is to try to avoid suspicion, both from town and his own teammates.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Master_Rahl22 » Fri May 22, 2009 1:17 am UTC

I think Martin's idea is horrible and doesn't do anything but muddy the waters. The traitor's best bet is to lay low until late game when one vote is more important. In fact I think the idea is bad enough that it deserves a vote.

Vote: MartinW
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby MasterOfAll » Fri May 22, 2009 1:30 am UTC

I'm not really getting the "traitor should lay low to make it to the late game" reasoning.

I guess my thinking is that, no matter how subtle he tries to be, as soon as one scum throws another under the bus, the godfather is going to use his kill the player who acted like a traitor. At which point, it would be really nice if we then find out that there were other players the traitor had been suspicious of, and that becomes the short list for who is most likely scum.

I really don't think the traitor can subtly sway town to vote for scum without the other scum noticing, so I figure we might as well get as much info out of the traitor as possible (provided the mod's boundaries are respected, although I still have no clue exactly where that line is drawn).

@mod - can you provide an example of something the traitor is allowed to say and another of what he is not allowed to say (avoiding the blatantly obvious, please)?
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Gojoe » Fri May 22, 2009 4:09 am UTC

The traitor can say whatever they like, as long as it does not cast suspicion on themselves as a traitor. The idea is the traitor has to play like a spy. Their first priority is to not get caught by their mafia buddies.
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*Various positive comments on your masculinity
That continue on into infinity*

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby crucialityfactor » Fri May 22, 2009 4:30 am UTC

Gojoe wrote:The traitor can say whatever they like, as long as it does not cast suspicion on themselves as a traitor. The idea is the traitor has to play like a spy. Their first priority is to not get caught by their mafia buddies.


To amend this a bit. The traitor cannot outright say that someone is or isn't mafia or hint at something that they wouldn't otherwise know.

IMPORTANT RULE ADDITIONS:

Two things with the Traitor that I forgot to add to the rules before:

1) In this thread, no one can claim to be the traitor. Even if you aren't I will modkill you on the spot. Think of it like trying to daykill someone in a sins game to prove that you aren't the sin.

2) The traitor will not be revealed upon their death. They will only show as their Mafia role. Even the Mafia won't be told that the traitor is dead.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby crucialityfactor » Fri May 22, 2009 4:32 am UTC

Vote Count:

MartinW- 2 (Azrael001, Master_Rahl22)

12 Votes to Lynch

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Silknor » Fri May 22, 2009 4:42 am UTC

Ah. That second role addition, so useful for making the traitor balanced, basically eliminates any reason for the debate between Martin and myself. Regardless of what would have happened earlier, now the traitor clearly just wants to survive for a while.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Entropy » Fri May 22, 2009 5:23 am UTC

Given the latest rule clarification, I find it unlikely that the traitor will risk doing much but trying to blend in. As a result, I don't think that the traitor is as important to us as the knowledge that the traitor could still be alive. The hypothetical threat of the traitor seems more likely to do damage to the mafia than the traitor's actual actions, especially considering the godfather's ability.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Brooklynxman » Fri May 22, 2009 5:57 am UTC

Entropy wrote:Given the latest rule clarification, I find it unlikely that the traitor will risk doing much but trying to blend in. As a result, I don't think that the traitor is as important to us as the knowledge that the traitor could still be alive. The hypothetical threat of the traitor seems more likely to do damage to the mafia than the traitor's actual actions, especially considering the godfather's ability.


I completely agree with you. SOrry for short post. But thats all I have to say. Paranoia amongst the enemy is a powerful weapon
We figure out what all this means, then do something large and violent

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby mister k » Fri May 22, 2009 8:05 am UTC

hmm, a brand new game to play, which is good, because it looks like my time in futuramafia is very, very short....

Soo, a real vanilla game, something I am pretty much new to. Well I've played real life mafia/werewolf, but with less roles and more fun fun bandwagonning based on "I'm pretty sure I heard you move during the night". I don't think we should rush to a day 1 vote, I'd be suspicious of those who have done so, but isn't that a little obvious? Certainly Martins posts don't strike me as scummy, and while he and silk argue, it kind of feels like they're, you know... disagreeing. We shall see. We shall see.
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Master_Rahl22 » Fri May 22, 2009 6:21 pm UTC

Wow based on CF's clarifications on the traitor, I'd vote for Martin again if I wasn't already. The whole "traitor should try to influence the lynch" thing is just a really quick way to get the traitor offed.

After reading through the setup again, it seems that there are no absolutes. The doctor protects against everything but the Hitman's 1-shot. The cop is sane but 3 scum show as town and 1 town shows as scum. That means that a scum result from an investigation will only be wrong in the case of the traitor, who of course can't claim traitor. I'm thinking mainly we need to be careful about "confirmed townies" and not let a town result from an investigation let people off the hook for scummy behavior.

Anybody else have some thoughts on the setup or on whether MartinW is scum?
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby MartinW » Fri May 22, 2009 7:53 pm UTC

Anybody else have some thoughts on the setup or on whether MartinW is scum?

Er, Yeah, I have a few. ;-)

I think Martin's idea is horrible and doesn't do anything but muddy the waters. The traitor's best bet is to lay low until late game when one vote is more important. In fact I think the idea is bad enough that it deserves a vote.

Yes, this does seem the obvious way to go now. I would have agreed with it before we knew that the traitor would show as mafia. It's actually much better than my idea of leaving hints. But I didn't really think of it, hence the point of discussing the setup. I was basing my idea on what happened in a game long ago (the only one I played with a traitor). The traitor did basically the same thing only much more explicit than hints. IIRC he asked to be lynched.

Also:
Master_Rahl22 wrote:Wow based on CF's clarifications on the traitor, I'd vote for Martin again if I wasn't already.

This isn't logical. CF didn't clarify, he specifically uses the words "rule addition". Even if I were mafia I wouldn't have known the addition at the time of my post and so that is no basis for suspicion.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Entropy » Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 pm UTC

I was recently in a game (see sk reform) where I put forth an idea before thinking it through and it got me killed. As a result, I'm more willing to accept the possibility that Martin simply didn't think his idea through. I'm not saying that he gets a complete pass from me, but at this early hour on day one it is not enough to earn my vote.

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Master_Rahl22 » Fri May 22, 2009 8:57 pm UTC

Ok, you're right it was an addition and not a clarification. The idea was still bad, but it's less scummy than I thought at first.

Unvote

Come on people let's get some more discussion here.
"Master Rahl guide us. Master Rahl teach us. Master Rahl protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live only to serve. Our lives are yours."

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby Sungura » Fri May 22, 2009 9:42 pm UTC

Well as I said I am most suspicious of Az for starting that vote off soooooooo early. Especially when there doesn't really seem to be that much against Martin. :? I don't know. I usually need a game day to get my berrings.
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she/<any gender neutral>/snug

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mister k
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby mister k » Fri May 22, 2009 9:52 pm UTC

I'm personally looking at az the funniest at the moment, but for exactly the same reasons I'm looking at him funny I don't want to vote yet! Better to have some discussion on the first day I should think. Hmm, so mafia traitors can't say much. I guess they can protect a little harder for non-scum (and claim it was to protect themselves by throwing people off I guess?) and they can fail to protect scum. They're gonna be pretty hard to spot I guess.... Can mafia kill their own off, btw?
Elvish Pillager wrote:you're basically a daytime-miller: you always come up as guilty to scumdar.

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crucialityfactor
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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby crucialityfactor » Fri May 22, 2009 9:54 pm UTC

Is that a question for me mister k?

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Re: Mafia Round 7: Day 1

Postby mister k » Fri May 22, 2009 10:22 pm UTC

it can be!
Elvish Pillager wrote:you're basically a daytime-miller: you always come up as guilty to scumdar.


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