[Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Game Over: The Town Wins

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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby vector » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:21 am UTC

BigNose wrote:Would a 'No-lynch' strategy work?.


Blorgh.

(Just for you, roband)

I am seriously loath to abandon our day game like this, mostly because I feel like this is turning everything into a big game of Follow the Cop Musical Chairs. I also feel like too much repetition of anything is going to just wear the town down for when we do need our day games--after all, there is no definite end point for this strategy.

Of course I realize that "no definite end point" does not mean "no end point where we just say 'okay, stop already,'" but in my personal experience that usually comes after the town is more than worn out.

So, despite the theoretical utility of your strategy, I think that the practical application in this scenario has some difficulties.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mister k » Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:56 am UTC

vector wrote:
BigNose wrote:Would a 'No-lynch' strategy work?.


Blorgh.

(Just for you, roband)

I am seriously loath to abandon our day game like this, mostly because I feel like this is turning everything into a big game of Follow the Cop Musical Chairs. I also feel like too much repetition of anything is going to just wear the town down for when we do need our day games--after all, there is no definite end point for this strategy.

Of course I realize that "no definite end point" does not mean "no end point where we just say 'okay, stop already,'" but in my personal experience that usually comes after the town is more than worn out.

So, despite the theoretical utility of your strategy, I think that the practical application in this scenario has some difficulties.


Could you re-write this please. I literally don't understand what you are saying.

I'd really like to hear more from entropy,thinksweet and feltir on everything here, as all three have been absent thus far, before we push on with day end.

Ultimately I think arguing for no lynch is an anti-town strategy. In dethy it makes complete sense because we end up with enough information that we can make decent lynches, but there is no guarentee of that. The majority of cop claims will be fake, meaning the only guarenteed way to confirm a cop is to have them die. Which is not good.

One of the major disadvantages with the mass cop claim, which I am still broadly in favour of, is that hidden cops can try and point the town towards correct lynches. In addition, if the town is about to lynch someone they know is scummy, they can keep schtum and remain hidden, or is about to lynch town, they can defend against that. They can do all that in a mass cop claim, but it won't be difficult for the scum to work out what they're doing, because they'll be posting their truthful results!
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby roband » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:08 am UTC

Another aspect is the following:

Say that player A fake cop claims saying that player B is innocent.
During the day, all players decide that player B has been acting scummy and should be lynched.
Player A (because he/she knows his/her claim was faked) does not step in to protect player B and protest his/her innocence.

Scum can see this and know that currently Player A is not a cop, therefore narrowing down who else could be a cop.

On the flip side, if player A WAS a cop and the claim was correct, should he/she step in to protect player B from being lynched incorrectly? Probably not, because having a known cop is more useful (or rather, at least AS useful) than the unknown role of player B.

Of course, this all goes to crap when you take switching into account. There is so much unknown here.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby BigNose » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:42 am UTC

Remember, we do not have a Doctor, so any claim by A as defining B as Scum must be from a Cop (or ex-Cop), so we can lynch B. If B turns out to be Town, then we can lynch A, but sure as eggs are eggs, that person will die that night and despite trying to negate the loss of a Cop (everyone using the Target as the Cop, so that his ability gets swapped out), I think the Switcher ability is last in the list, hence loss of a Cop for a Scum.

Is 1 x Cop for 1 x Scum a good deal for Town?

The no-lynch option maybe good for D1, but that doesn't mean that we end the day ASAP. On the contrary, the option is just that, an OPTION that we can consider on a per Day basis.

I am certainly interested in EVERYONE's opinion.

Just because 1 or 2 of you don't like the idea, I will keep asking the question, because I have your opinion, but not others.

I think there are options for strategy here, I just want to find one that would work and also find out why others would not.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby roband » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:41 am UTC

I don't think a cop is worth a mafia, to be honest.
We only have two cops and previous suggestions guess at 3 to 4 mafia.

If we can even those odds up at any point, by lynching 1 or 2 mafia without the loss of any cops (which we may not know about, as the cop ability can be switched to a scum player), then and only then might it be worth it.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:50 am UTC

I second the call for input from Entropy, ThinkSweet, and Felltir.

Mass cop claim approval totals (correct me if I've got your position wrong):
For: 7 (Elvish Pillager, MasterOfAll, mpolo, Misnomer, mister k, Dr Ug, Not A Raptor)
Against: 2 (vector, BigNose)
Undecided: 4 (roband, Entropy, ThinkSweet, Felltir)

That's a majority (although we never agreed to approval-by-majority for it, so it's not exactly hammered in place now.) When I have time, I'll write a big post compiling all the instructions for how to create the fake claims - a lot of people have made good suggestions and we should have them all in one place. This should also clear up some of the confusion around it.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mister k » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:53 am UTC

a cop is worth a mafia provided we wouldn't have got the mafia otherwise.

In situation A, scummy person acts scummy, then they'll end up being lynched, and indeed copped. Its not worth the cop claiming to get them killed, because the cop doesn't need to give away info.

If someone is looking towny, or at least not currently scummy, then the town is unlikely to hit them. The cop has got fortunate hitting said person. Bear in mind that unless the cop is smart, they will end up copping town more times than they cop scum, so each scum result is precious. The worst thing that could happen is that the cop could stay hidden, hoping to get the scum the next day by persuading town, then they get night killed.

So, to be brief, I am not suggesting (assuming we didn't have mass claims) that cops always claim to get scum, but if scum is likely to get away, its probably worth them claiming.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby roband » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:54 am UTC

Elvish Pillager, you can add me to the 'For' list.

I'm certainly not against it, and I don't have a better suggestion currently.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mpolo » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:14 pm UTC

The strategy discussion that went on last night is very interesting, but I'm not getting a feeling about the participants much.

I think that, especially with the presence of the switchers, a no-lynch strategy is the wrong way to go. We potentially lose one townie less, but we also lose information about who voted whom. And the information that we get from the investigations and such in the night will be rendered questionable by the possible mixing up of the roles. We would have more info than a typical Day One, but it's not going to be that much better, I fear.

I agree with the anti-explicit-random-voting faction. If you tell me that your vote against me is random, I have no reason to even try to defend (or way to defend, for that matter). If you at least say, "He's looking a bit lurky..." or that a particular post seemed "off", then there's something to go on. At least that's the way the things usually play around here.

The second case of the argument against mass-cop-claim seems to be wrong as well. If I've been cop for the whole game, I'm going to keep incrementing my "since Nx" counter:

Hypothetical Cop wrote:D2: I copped Alpha last night as scum, and have been a Cop for 1 night.
D3: I copped Beta last night as town, and have been a Cop for 2 nights.
D4: I copped Gamma last night as town, and have been a Cop for 3 nights.
N4: dies, revealed as cop


Then we know that 3 nights worth of info is good. If he said "for 1 night", then again for "1 night" then for "2 nights", we would disregard (or at least take with a mountain of salt) the first result, and only use the other two.

That means that the rest of us (who don't get cop results) would have to be creative about the "how many nights" field to prevent having real cops stick out too much before they either die or have enough info to openly claim.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby BigNose » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:41 pm UTC

But that is daft.
As soon as someone says "I have found X to be scum", then
a: The cop is outed
b: The cop is dead.
Which is back to my 1 for 1, which people understandably don't like.

If we (A) cop scum (B) and get scum back, then we have 3 options
1: Tell the truth and call B scum - Scum lynch, Cop NK'd
2: Tell a lie and call B Town - Scum consider A is NOT Cop
3: Tell a lie and call C Town. - Scum are no wiser (assuming C is Town. If C is also Scum, then we are back at 2).
In all cases - I have been a cop for 1 Night(s)

Only if Option 2 or 3 occurs:
Repeat for Night 2 - Now we consider as the cop, whether we have chanced our arm enough as to whether we should repeat N1, or claim D3
1: Tell the truth and call B scum - Scum lynch, Cop NK'd
2: Tell a lie and call B Town - Scum consider A is NOT Cop
3: Tell a lie and call C Town. - Scum are no wiser (assuming C is Town. If C is also Scum, then we are back at 2).
In all cases - I have been a cop for 2 Night(s)

Come N3 our Cop is NK'd and on D4 is found to be a Cop.

If he used option 1 D2, then he is dead N2 and we have no further info.
If he used option 2 or 3, then on D3 uses option 1, we atleast have 1 Scum down, but lose the Cop.
If he used option 2 or 3, and picks a 2nd scum, then he MUST reveal D3
But if he used option 2 or 3 on D2 and did not reveal D3 and he is NK'd N3, despite the reveals he has, it is useless for Town.
Because we could believe him that B, C and potentially D is Town.

I think that maybe if the cop goes for option 3, then he should also cop player C on the next night. Whether he reveals his correct option is upto them.

If a cop finds scum and loses his cop ability, then ALL his results must be revealed.
I am tempted to say that if a Cop loses his ability, then they reveal by default.
The problem with that, is that Scum could look at who targeted our ex-Cop and realise that they are now the NEW Cop.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby BigNose » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:43 pm UTC

EBWOP

I am not adverse to the mass-cop-claim, but neither am I in favour at the moment.
It will depend on the strategy (if we find one).
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:59 pm UTC

I just ran some numbers. If we ignore blockers, there's only a 39% chance that any cops will be be switched N1. For each individual cop, there's only a 21% chance that they'll be switched N1. With blockers included, those numbers go further down, because of the chance that some switchers are blocked. Later in the game, those chances will go down if switchers (or cops) die, and they'll go up if non-switcher non-cops, especially blockers, die. Conveniently, we'll know exactly how many switchers and how many cops are blocked, so we'll be able to calculate more accurate probabilities when it becomes an issue.

To me, no-lynch actually seems worth considering, although I'm still favoring a D1 lynch. Here's why: Out of all the ways that people can die, lynching has the highest chance of killing Mirrors - maybe even the *only* chance:

Mod: Do blockers disable Mirrors?

If they don't, then it might be a good - if crazy - idea to leave the killing to the nighttime bloodbath, which would drastically increase the chances of scum self-NKing near the end of the game. (For reference, there's about a 15% chance of lynching a mirror, and about a 6% chance of a mirror being blocked and killed on the same night if all targets are random. The scum might be able to coordinate and increase their chance of killing mirrors, but even they don't know if they have a blocker or not, and we don't know how much coordination they can do with their limited night chat.) If it turns out that blockers *can* disable mirrors, then I don't think the chances are really in the town's favor enough to justify a no-lynch, but if they can't, I'll give it more consideration.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:02 pm UTC

EBWOP: BigNose, some non-cops will falseclaim scum results. A true scum result won't stand out from among them.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mpolo » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:17 pm UTC

EP's proposal seemed so clear to me, and yet many people are failing to grasp it.

I would guess that mirrors can be blocked and switched, but not killed or copped, but it would certainly be nice to have confirmation on that.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mister k » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:27 pm UTC

heres the suggestion I would make. We each choose a random way to announce our results. So we have three things to do for our fake claim- choose a target, choose a result, choose a day we've been working with

-We pick target at random/choose who we have most scummy/order them from most to least in our heads and use weighted sampling
-We choose a result, probably with a higher weight towards town. The weights should basically be #total:#mafia
-We stick with day 1 or, if its day 3, flip with probability 20%.

This random approach has probably the closest chance of hiding our cops. Note that if we choose to do something silently we may all accidentally decide to do something. What do people think?
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby roband » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

That works me for mister k
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:50 pm UTC

mister k: I believe it's better to have half town results and half anti-town results, so that real anti-town results don't stand out at all.

I'm in the middle of writing a big post that covers most of the details - I'll probably finish it in a few hours, after I've gone to class and had lunch. I'll make it the page-topper of the next page if I can.

Oh, and just in case the mod will answer this:

Mod: Can Mirrors be switched?
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mister k » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:13 pm UTC

sure thing. Thinking about it

Target choice: probably the same
result: 50/50
Flipping with probability 30-50%? I want to avoid random chance making nobody flip, thus giving away the scum.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby BigNose » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:16 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:mister k: I believe it's better to have half town results and half anti-town results, so that real anti-town results don't stand out at all.

I'm in the middle of writing a big post that covers most of the details - I'll probably finish it in a few hours, after I've gone to class and had lunch. I'll make it the page-topper of the next page if I can.

Oh, and just in case the mod will answer this:

Mod: Can Mirrors be switched?
As I had said before (sequence listing), in almost all games, I believe that the Blocker is the first ability served. Thus the Mirror could be Blocked, then Switched or NK'd, but I will await 'confirmation' via the MOD's response.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby RoadieRich » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:41 pm UTC

Mirrors can be both blocked and switched.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:02 pm UTC

Hrm, okay. We should definitely lynch someone then.

While I remember, Mod: Can you tell us how thorough you're going to be about keeping the scum players' identities from each other? It seems to me that if they can exchange any meaningful information in night chat, they could coordinate their whole team on D2... does the system you have in place prevent that?
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby vector » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:57 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:EP's proposal seemed so clear to me, and yet many people are failing to grasp it.


I simply can't help wondering what kind of daygame behavior the proposal will create.


And, the modified message:

vector wrote:
BigNose wrote:Would a 'No-lynch' strategy work?.


Blorgh.

(Just for you, roband)

We could perform millions of iterations while never getting any scum results. I worry about the town getting worn out. Of course I realize that "no definite end point" does not mean "no end point where we just say 'okay, stop already,'" but in my personal experience that usually comes after the town is more than worn out.

So, despite the theoretical utility of your strategy, I think that the practical application in this scenario has some difficulties.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby felltir » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:31 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:Hrm, okay. We should definitely lynch someone then.

While I remember, Mod: Can you tell us how thorough you're going to be about keeping the scum players' identities from each other? It seems to me that if they can exchange any meaningful information in night chat, they could coordinate their whole team on D2... does the system you have in place prevent that?


Well, they are probably forbidden from telling each other their names, and forced to copy in the mods.

Or, actually, scum -> mods -> other scum.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:13 pm UTC

It seems almost certainly scum -> mods -> other scum, but if that's the only limitation, they could tell who they suspect (i.e. who they aren't), or arrange a code to identify each other on the following day, or various other such stuff. I'm just asking about how thoroughly their information is limited, which is very important to town - if they can actually identify each other D2, the mass cop claim strategy is noticeably weakened, so I want modly conformation that we can't have the rug pulled out from under us in such a way.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:34 pm UTC

Another thing. The mods have stated that it will be revealed which roles are blocked. That was unexpected; I wonder if there are similar surprises lurking:

Will the morning flavour say which roles have been switched with?

Will there be any other non-standard information in the morning flavour?
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby RoadieRich » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:59 pm UTC

We are not guaranteeing the presence of any non-standard information in the morning post. You may be told, but do not rely on it. This includes information about which roles were blocked. It is, however, more likely than any other information. Apologies for the change of stance, but the flavour we are planning does not allow us to make that guarantee. We will, however guarantee that information in flavour text will be accurate to the events of the night.

All scum communication is currently via the mods. The messages will be edited to remove any clear references to identity - this includes directly saying their name, making lists not including themselves, etc, but the rule is in place because of the effects of their amnesia, not to make it impossible for them to know who each other is. If/when we decide that they have figured out who their scum mates are, you will be informed in the morning post. The requirement to send messages via the mods will also be lifted at the same time.

In short, it will be possible for scum to figure out their scummates, and to coordinate, but it will not be easy. When they do, you will be told.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Dr Ug » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:34 pm UTC

No lynch is a bad idea because of the mirrors. The only way they can die is via lynching, and with them around there is the possibility of two uncoppable mafia. Relying 100% on cops in this game is a bad idea.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Not A Raptor » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:34 am UTC

I've got a good idea: Lynch people we think are scum, target at night those people we think are scum, and play the damn game. :P Speaking of the game, has anybody actually done any analysis (or even criticism) of somebody based on more than their opinions on the mass copclaim?
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:43 am UTC

Spoiler:
RoadieRich wrote:We are not guaranteeing the presence of any non-standard information in the morning post. You may be told, but do not rely on it. This includes information about which roles were blocked. It is, however, more likely than any other information. Apologies for the change of stance, but the flavour we are planning does not allow us to make that guarantee. We will, however guarantee that information in flavour text will be accurate to the events of the night.

All scum communication is currently via the mods. The messages will be edited to remove any clear references to identity - this includes directly saying their name, making lists not including themselves, etc, but the rule is in place because of the effects of their amnesia, not to make it impossible for them to know who each other is. If/when we decide that they have figured out who their scum mates are, you will be informed in the morning post. The requirement to send messages via the mods will also be lifted at the same time.

In short, it will be possible for scum to figure out their scummates, and to coordinate, but it will not be easy. When they do, you will be told.
Aww. :( I'm going to have to edit my big (not yet posted) post clarifying the mass cop claim, to account for these new developments.

Dr Ug wrote:No lynch is a bad idea because of the mirrors. The only way they can die is via lynching, and with them around there is the possibility of two uncoppable mafia. Relying 100% on cops in this game is a bad idea.

Are you trying to keep spontaneously coming up with the opposite ideas from me? :P I think it's better if the mirror roles stay existent, because of the chance for a scum self-NK (which, I'm sure you'll agree, is better than any cop result). Also, mirrors can be killed by being targeted with a block and a kill in the same night, not just by the lynch. Neither of these things really changes our strategy, though, since we should still lynch each day and we have no idea who the mirrors are right now.

NAR: There's someone I'm highly suspicious of, whom I'll make an in-depth accusation against once I post the big concluding cop-claim post. (It isn't Dr Ug.)
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Entropy » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:07 am UTC

Honestly, I echo NaR's sentiments... trying to distill the rules into mathematical behaviors that all players should follow, especially in a game this complex, just seems to take all the fun out of it. And I would not be surprised at all if scum were hiding among those posting these prolific complex strategies and analysis of odds, because it looks so much like scum hunting... but it really isn't.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby vector » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:20 am UTC

Entropy wrote:Honestly, I echo NaR's sentiments... trying to distill the rules into mathematical behaviors that all players should follow, especially in a game this complex, just seems to take all the fun out of it. And I would not be surprised at all if scum were hiding among those posting these prolific complex strategies and analysis of odds, because it looks so much like scum hunting... but it really isn't.


This. Thank you. I wish I could have said this.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:44 am UTC

Hey there. I have some internet access for the first time in days and so will hopefully be able to catch up with the thread and post something useful, but wanted to post this just in case the internet connection at this Subway in Utah suddenly goes away.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:51 am UTC

Okay, I have caught up to the post I made a couple hours back.

First of all,
Entropy wrote:trying to distill the rules into mathematical behaviors that all players should follow, especially in a game this complex, just seems to take all the fun out of it.
What is this in reference to? I have noticed players trying to figure out as much as they can about the game mechanics, and this seems like a good thing to me. I have noticed players discussing strategies (mass-cop-claim, pre-selecting targets, no-lynch-day-one, etc.) and how effective they might be in this game, and that also seems like a good thing to me. But, I have NOT noticed any distillation of rules into mathematical behaviors that all players should follow. Did I somehow miss that part?

As for the idea of no-lynch, I am not as generally opposed to the concept as many players here seem to be. I think that there are situations where a no-lynch makes the MOST sense. (The most obvious being the case where there are 4 players left with 1 scum and 3 town and since a lynch of a townie would give scum the win everyone votes to no-lynch so that the NK will get the game down to 1 scum and 2 town and it then is easier to pick out the scum.) Since in this game the scum do not currently know who other scum are it is going to make it impossible to look for connections between players and then use that as evidence of being scum. So, having a vote record from D1 is less important than usual, which makes no-lynch a slightly better option than it usually is (but not necessarily a better option than proceeding with a lynch). So, bottom line, I am not convinced one way or the other quite yet. And, I really don't see the harm in continuing to discuss the idea.

Now, onto the strategy of everyone participating in a mass cop claim each day. As previously stated, I am not sure that we will every get any information out of this strategy that we can actually use (because of blockers, etc.) but I do not see any harm in giving it a try. It definitely should not be a major focus of our days, and we should just do what we always do to find scum (analyze other players posts and such). However, if/when we do end up with a dead cop, we can then go back and see if there is anything useful in the 'fake' claims by that player. I do think we should agree to a common format for the claims, and we should get a claim from every player still alive each day since that will provide the most cover for the actual alignment cop(s). Of course, telling the truth in the 'fake' claim is really important for anyone who does get an actual alignment result from the mods.

BigNose wrote:Therefore, we all Cop X N1 (where X is anyone they care to) and on D2, everyone identifies who they targeted.
From this quote it sounds like BigNose thinks we send an action and a target into the mods each night. I was under the impression that we just send in a target. Then, if we happen to be the blocker, our target gets blocked. If we happen to be a cop, we get a result back. Etc. I don't think we get to put any conditions on our night action (I only want to use my action if it is an investigation). I suppose we do have the option of not sending in any target, but I cannot think of any reasons to do that. I agree with the poster who pointed out that we should pretty much always target someone we think might be scum.

@mods - Can you please correct me if I am wrong about what we send you each night: just a target (see previous paragraph)? Thanks.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mpolo » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:11 am UTC

I understood the night mechanic as MoA did: we send in Target: name and then whatever our action (if any) happens to the Target. Thus, we only want to target scum, as NaR has said. (No targeting a probable cop in the hopes that you are a switcher, unless that probable cop is also probable mafia.)

I think that Entropy's comments about mathematical behaviors came from the exchange between (I think) Elvish Pillager and mister k, about what % of the time you should fake finding scum and what % you should fake finding town. As long as we're not being hard and fast on such rules, the rule of thumb that they worked out seems to be sufficient to allow our real cops to hide among the fake ones, and should at least be considered before posting our claims.

Dr Ug's point about killing the mirrors is good -- if a mirror gets into the hands of a scum, we can only remove it by switching or by lynching. What this boils down to, however, is NaR's point, namely, that we should get busy lynching some scum!

I guess I have to reread some of this to see if anything jumps out at me as a scumtell. Up to now, I have seen nothing blatant. Hopefully, I can do this today.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mister k » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:15 am UTC

hmm, what I'd like now is to hear a lot more from feltir, entropy and thinksweet, the first two can be counted as active lurking, the latter appears to not be here.... Other than my previous post I don't really have much to go on. I guess vector feels off to me, but I think thats just a different playstyle throwing me off, as I said before.

I guess I'd like to see one of Ug's epic analysis posts, partially because he feels like he's been a bit off this game.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:43 pm UTC

I didn't really want to post this near the bottom of a page, but with the discussion stagnating a bit, it's time to get it out of the way. My accusation will come later today (I want to be able to write it up thoroughly.)

The Somnambulist Mass Cop Claim Manifesto
"If both cops die N1, we don't have to worry about it!" -- The New York Times


My fellow Amnesiaville residents! ...blah blah blah.

Each day, every player should claim: "If I copped someone last night, it was [name], it came back [result], and I have had the cop ability since [night]". You can abbreviate it "Cop claim: [name], [result], been a cop since [night]". A real town cop should claim exactly what their real results are. A town non-cop should fabricate claims in order to protect the real cops. A scum or independent player, even if they're a cop, should make up whatever claim they want to try to look like town, because we're gonna ignore their results no matter what.

Onto business. Let's dissect the claim a little:

  • Each claim includes a player name.
    • Real cops should name the player they actually targeted on the previous night.
    • Fake cops should claim a random player that they might have targeted, but probably not who they actually targeted.
      • Since players should target anyone they think is scummy, pick a random person that you have at least some suspicion for, so that it'll be believable that you might have targeted them.
      • Don't entirely rule out claiming your real target - if a few people fake-claim their real target, then a scum Watcher won't be able to detect a real cop just because they claim their real target.
  • Each claim includes a cop result.
    • Everyone should claim "town" or "anti-town" for the cop result.
    • It's possible that a real cop can give a separate "independent" result, but we're assuming that independents are anti-town.
      • If any town-neutral independent wants to speak up TODAY and claim their win condition, so that we don't have to assume you're a villain, please do so.
    • Real cops should claim "town" on a town result and "anti-town" on a scum or independent result. We're not including an "independent" claim because that could make it very obvious whether someone is actually a cop.
    • Fake cops should claim "town" if their guess is that the named player is town and claim "anti-town" if their guess is that the named player is scum.
      • If not many players have claimed "town", favor an "town" claim so that a real anti-town result doesn't stand out from the list.
      • If not many players have claimed "anti-town", favor an "anti-town" claim so that a real anti-town result doesn't stand out from the list.
  • Each claim includes a duration.
    • Obviously, everyone will claim "since N1" on D2.
    • Real cops should claim the earliest night from which they've had a usable cop result on every night since. If it's D4 and you got cop results N1 and N3, but not N2, claim "since N3". If it's D4 and you got cop results N1, N2, and N3, claim "since N1".
    • Fake cops should make something up, but try to look consistent.
      • If not many players have changed their claim since the previous day, change your claim so that a real cop who lost their ability doesn't stand out from the list.
      • If most of the players have changed their claim since the previous day, claim the same night you claimed the previous day so that a real cop who actually still has their ability doesn't stand out from the list.

"But what if I really did cop someone, and then lost the ability? I won't show up as cop, so how will people know my results were real?" - Townie McFormerCop

Well, Townie, that's where you claim for real! Specifically, if you received a cop result once and then didn't receive one on a subsequent night, and the morning message doesn't say a cop was blocked, it's very likely that you've been switched. At this point, you'll probably already have switched with someone else, who might very well be a mirror, so you won't be a safe target for scum, and you can freely claim the truth of your earlier results without any negative consequences whatsoever. The exception is if a switcher was blocked on the night you didn't receive cop results, but it's still probably safe to claim, since you could easily have been one of the switchers who didn't get blocked.

"What if I got rolecop results? Or watcher results?" - Townie McMakingThingsComplicated

In that case, you're not a real cop, and in fact, we don't want your results to be public (unless they're very incriminating under the circumstances.) Make up a fake claim like everyone else does. Don't worry - When you die, we'll know you're not a cop, and we can safely ignore your claims.

"So... how does this help us? I mean, suppose a cop snuffs it..." - Townie McMorbid

Ahhh. Then there are several possibilities.

  • They could have been an anti-town cop. Then you laugh and celebrate! Pity about the loss of the cop ability though.
  • They could have been a town cop, but with a morning message from the last night saying that a cop was blocked. In this case, there's a half chance (if there were still two cops left) that their claim was a false claim, and so the information isn't very reliable (but not to be entirely discounted).
  • They could have been a town cop with the previous morning's messages not mentioning any cops being blocked. It's possible, but quite unlikely (about a 1/5 chance) that they had recently been a switcher instead, and switched with a cop on the previous night. If there's a report that switchers were blocked, it's even less. Unfortunately, there still may be an unknown chance that a cop was blocked and it wasn't reported.
    • If any of their results is "anti-town", the town should almost certainly lynch the copped-as-anti-town player. A 4/5 chance of hitting scum is highly enviable (and it may be more than 4/5, because it might be a fabricated anti-town result on an actual anti-town player.) In the unlikely case that we lynch town by doing this, at least we know that their other results, if any, were bogus.
    • "Town" results aren't as useful, since they only mean "Town or unblocked anti-town mirror or the cop wasn't real". They're still somewhat exonerating evidence, though, especially if we lose any Mirror or Switcher roles early on.

"Bwa ha ha! I will manipulate your results through my choice of kills and targets!" - Scummy McScummerson

Nuh-uh, buster.

  • As long as the scum haven't coordinated with their whole team, they have no idea who the real cops are.
    • If someone fake-claims a scum result on a townie, the scum can't tell it's fake, because they don't know who the other scum are.
    • If someone fake-claims a town result on a scum player, the scum can't tell it's fake, because they don't know who the Mirrors are.
    • If someone fake-claims their target, the scum can't tell it's fake unless they had the Watcher ability and used it on the right player, an even that probably only rules out one fake claim.
    • If someone fake-claims the duration they've had the ability, the scum can't tell it's fake because they don't know who the Switchers are.
  • What's more, the scum are limited in their ability to falsely claim cop in later in the game, because they can only claim things that they already chose on earlier days.
  • The scum can't manipulate the results very much because - well, I don't really want to do the scum's work for them by telling them how they can (very slightly) manipulate the results.

A majority of players have spoken in favor of this plan, and it only awaits acknowledgement by the lurkers: Entropy, ThinkSweet, and Felltir.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby BigNose » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:41 pm UTC

I think that the flavours morning post will be of the style:

AB copped CD who found them Anti-Town
EF was blocked by GH
IJ has switched with KL
MN mirrored OP

Which will tell us that:
AB is/was the cop
CD was targeted as potential scum
AB could be lying about who he targeted ie the link between CD and the Real players name.
EF (may) have an ability
GH is a Blocker
IJ or KL may have been the Switcher, but the situ is now reversed, but we and they don't know
MN or OP is the mirror

If EP's method is workable, then we can defintely go for a no-lynch strategy.
It sort-of ruins the game, as we have basically found a way around the MODs rules/flavour, rather than have the fun of the hunt.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby mister k » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:12 pm UTC

I don't see how this ruins the game? This is a way to improve towns information, but it most definitely won't give us scum automatically. I am broadly in favour of the plan, but it is not a magical game winning plan. This is not a dethy set up, just a standardish with some interesting rules.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby Elvish Pillager » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:31 pm UTC

Can we get a modprod on ThinkSweet, who hasn't posted since game start?

BigNose, I'm afraid you're quite mistaken. The mod has told us:
RoadieRich wrote:We are not guaranteeing the presence of any non-standard information in the morning post. You may be told, but do not rely on it.
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Re: [Mini] Somnambulist Amnesia - Day 1: The Fog

Postby felltir » Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:11 pm UTC

mister k wrote:hmm, what I'd like now is to hear a lot more from feltir, entropy and thinksweet, the first two can be counted as active lurking, the latter appears to not be here.... Other than my previous post I don't really have much to go on. I guess vector feels off to me, but I think thats just a different playstyle throwing me off, as I said before.

I guess I'd like to see one of Ug's epic analysis posts, partially because he feels like he's been a bit off this game.


I will do a nice big post after dinner, 'kay? Been busy.
Spoiler:
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