Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:57 am UTC

Adacore wrote:Starting the game with no knowledge of the flavour, I wasn't even sure I was one of the good guys (although I became reasonably convinced I am fairly quickly).
Is this a 'trying to establish myself as Townie' comment?

Dark Loink wrote:I'll look through, Mav seems somewhat worth watching for me, but thats more gut feeling and speculation. I'd rather not get into the reasons yet, because if I'm wrong it would just make things worse.
We haven't had anymore from DL on this.

Krong wrote:Also, something that maybe hasn't been emphasized enough is that we've potentially got traitor characters around like Dr. Yueh and (kinda) Thufir Hawat, who may have two nearly-conflicting win conditions.
I think this is worth bearing in mind, as although the MOD has taken the characters from the 1st half of the book, there is no reason why he couldn't include a lot more characters from later on AND applied their 'allegience' to this game.

weiyaoli wrote:I can't see the different win conditions make that much of a difference in scum hunting. Although there are no black and white scum and town factions, I think I get the impresson from wiki and role spec so far that in general the house harkonnen are generally the faction that is most likely to be scum and because it will be difficult to figure out from the thread exactly what faction someone belongs to, I think the "default" view this game will be adopting will be generally anti-harkonnen.
This pings me as 'I am Harkunnen and I am Scum'.



Plenty of others directly or indirectly claiming 2 win conditions.
mpolo wrote:At least my secondary win condition really seemed kind of secondary to me on first reading.

Dr Ug wrote:I'm a bit surprised everyone is calling them "secondary" win condition

Adacore wrote:That does raise an interesting point - if you're in a situation where it's technically possible to get both wins, but you think the chances are maybe 10%, with a 90% chance of not getting either whereas you could concentrate on one win with a 50% chance of success, which option would/should people pursue?

Also, I'd like to say the option that is pro-town (or pro-faction, at any rate) should be 'preferred' as a primary win condition, personally. Helping others in your faction win is just as important as winning yourself, imo. Basically if you go for a 'solo' win condition (lyncher or survivor, for example), you get 1 win. If you go for a faction win condition and your faction has 20 players, you get 20 wins - the second option is far better.

Brooklynxman wrote:I care about my double wins. Not that I can remember ever getting one.

Silknor wrote:
Not A Raptor wrote:Silknor... does that mean that you don't possess a townish-type role, or are you simply commenting on town size and characteristics?

The latter, mostly. I'll admit I drew upon my own win conditions (I'm uniformed, but there's nothing to indicate I'm in a majority). So my role posses one, maybe 2, of the classic town conditions.



mister k wrote:you know, looking through, Bignose complains about scum hunting, yet hasn't, you know, done any yet. Admittedly I'm not seeing many tells- silknors reaching around for who town is seems a little suspicious to me, but its maybe too obvious for scuum.
And this was dated mister k » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:06 am UTC, so to still be getting beaten up over not doing any actual scum-hunting is just a wee bit hypocritical of those that haven't either. No, wait, I lie. Those that have done anything towards scum-hunting have gone straight for me.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:04 am UTC

Well, in defence of those who have implied having two win conditions, the first post says that everyone has two allegiances, and thus two win conditions. Are you trying to imply that you don't have two allegiance and two win conditions?
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:12 am UTC

Turret has failed to respond to modprod, and will be replaced by existential_elevator. Please make her welcome.

b.i.o wrote:
BigNose wrote:If Mav had been so vocal, then why did the MOD include him in the list?

her

Also, is there any particular reason you always capitalize mod?

MOD, who aren't in heaven
Gallows be thy name
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby existential_elevator » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:14 am UTC

...I'm just about to replace, but I'm also just about to leave for work/uni, so I will catch up later. Just letting y'all know I'll be reading up this thread and probably trying to find a good Dune summary. Back with content this afternoon/ evening!

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:18 am UTC

I'm gonna use adacores helpful player list to try and give my player feelings. I don't have feelings on everyone right now though, but yeah

Silknor -suspicious, but rather open with his irregular win conditions. Could be scum covering a mistake, or truly an independent

Adacore - Gave a lovely long post, which I am stealing, so I feel fine with him for now

ameretrifle - mostly been claiming at a loss so far. Feels a bit scummy from that, but to be honest I've been at a loss for most of these days

lataro - Rather scummy. The only reason I haven't voted for him instead of bignose is he often acts like this. I'd be willing to lynch him instead, however... eh, actually changed my mind while writing this. Will talk more in the summary.

greenlover - hasn't posted much, but a nice scum hunting post on page 4.

Dark Loink - hasn't posted enough yet. Needs to

Brooklynxman - mostly snarky little correction posts. Has voted, and voted like brook always votes, so not much there, but without that vote he's basically active lurking

Mavketl - I think I always read mav as townish, but yeah.. feeling townish

turret - hasn't posted, should be replaced.

PhoenixEnigma - Need more, certainly.

Krong - no pings thus far

Not A Raptor - reallly hasn't had much to say

BigNose - Voting for mav seems insane to me. I'm sorry, but it just reads as scummy, and then the quick unvote with weak explanation.

mpolo - not seeing much there

Flying_Cookie - Brooks vote for him was overeager in my mind. Nothing much there.

Misterk - itsa me!

cycoden - Slow to post, but thats not unusual. Has done a bit of scum hunting, so fine I guess

b.i.o - talky, seems fine to me

weiyaoli - quiet, but weiy often is. Not much here

Dr Ug - Low content, which is unusual for the good doctor.

So, yeah I don't think lataro should be allowed to get away with lazy game playing, even if it IS how he usually acts. I think he needs to do better.

unvote
vote:lataro


Other people I find suspicious now, from most to least

bignose
Dr Ug
silknor
Brook
NAR
amer

Although that ordering is actually a little hazy
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:19 am UTC

HOLY CRAP e_e that is the quickest confirmation evar.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby b.i.o » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:03 pm UTC

I'm going to do a read-through later today and post some actual analysis rather than just rolespec. My general opinion of what's happened so far *without* doing a reread (and keeping in mind that I've been very very stressed/tired since this game has started, since that affects how I've been viewing things) is that I'm not terribly convinced about any of the arguments against anyone right now. However, I also am not terribly suspicious of anyone. (That is, my scumdar (which would usually be doing quite a bit of pinging by this point) has been broken. Hopefully it'll fix itself soon so I can start being useful.)

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby existential_elevator » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:45 pm UTC

I am caught up!

BigNose wrote:
Adacore wrote:Starting the game with no knowledge of the flavour, I wasn't even sure I was one of the good guys (although I became reasonably convinced I am fairly quickly)
.Is this a 'trying to establish myself as Townie' comment?
First things first: when I first opened my role PM I was like "uh.. so, am I a good guy, bad guy or what? Bwuh?" then I read the thread and was like "oh, so probably I am a good guy but those labels might not be applicable. Okay". The factions set up is very ambiguous if you don't really know the flavour. So, I have a lot of sympathy for Adacore's confusion, and I largely think we're in a free-for-all and/or competing factions scenario, difficulty being knowing who in hells we're aligned with.

Second thing, as mentioned by Mav, this search for Jessica. Does this mean we should be suspicious of people who voted Mav after this was announced? Or, is it likely that if they were trying to find/vote her then it has no bearing whatsoever on their affilation? :| This is all very confusing

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:42 pm UTC

existential_elevator wrote:Second thing, as mentioned by Mav, this search for Jessica. Does this mean we should be suspicious of people who voted Mav after this was announced? Or, is it likely that if they were trying to find/vote her then it has no bearing whatsoever on their affilation? :| This is all very confusing

I was going to say that anyone specifically aiming for Lady Jessica would be scum, if we could just figure out who they were and that they were doing if for sure; but then I remembered that half the Atreides spend half the book convinced she's betrayed them. Fffff.

I hate making yet another "gah idk" post, but I don't know if we're really going to have a clue where we stand until someone dies, and it may get dodgy even then. D1, and you're not even totally sure what tells you're looking for. Woo.

I think I need a votecount... maybe it would help, because I really think the only solution to this problem is lynching. Could we have a votecount please almighty Mod? Or I guess we could count them ourselves.

After that I think I'm going to bite the bullet and lay down a vote, by whatever means necessary. :/

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby weiyaoli » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:24 pm UTC

BigNose wrote:
weiyaoli wrote:I can't see the different win conditions make that much of a difference in scum hunting. Although there are no black and white scum and town factions, I think I get the impresson from wiki and role spec so far that in general the house harkonnen are generally the faction that is most likely to be scum and because it will be difficult to figure out from the thread exactly what faction someone belongs to, I think the "default" view this game will be adopting will be generally anti-harkonnen.
This pings me as 'I am Harkunnen and I am Scum'.


I'm not sure how you got that from people will probably try to act "anti-Harkonnen" instead of acting "town" because Harkonnen is the obvious scum in this game and there are a lot of grey areas in the other factions.

ameretrifle wrote:
existential_elevator wrote:Second thing, as mentioned by Mav, this search for Jessica. Does this mean we should be suspicious of people who voted Mav after this was announced? Or, is it likely that if they were trying to find/vote her then it has no bearing whatsoever on their affilation? :| This is all very confusing

I was going to say that anyone specifically aiming for Lady Jessica would be scum, if we could just figure out who they were and that they were doing if for sure; but then I remembered that half the Atreides spend half the book convinced she's betrayed them. Fffff.


I'm not sure how that makes a difference though as the only reason they would be gunning for Lady Jessica would be if that was part of their win condition. Even though they think she betrayed them, I don't think that would translate into a win condition since it is only for half the book.
And you thought I was crazy...

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:32 pm UTC

It is the last half of the book, though. I can see it happening, but it probably is less likely.

That still leaves us with figuring out if anyone's been going after Mav though. Agh, to hell with it.

Vote: BigNose

Subject to change upon a good defense or upon a better idea being provided. I just don't want to sit around and hope something will happen any longer, because if it hasn't yet, it won't.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Adacore » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:44 pm UTC

The promised summary to my analysis post from yesterday:

I think Silknor, Lataro and BigNose are acting the most scummy, but I'm cautious of being too suspicious of BigNose, since this does kinda fit his normal playstyle as town. I'm also somewhat suspicious of mpolo, Krong and cycoden. For some reason I'm feeling fairly confident about these, but I could, of course, be way off the mark.

ameretrifle, greenlover, D_L, Brook, mister k, b.i.o and weiyaoli seem townish so far (mister k is the only one I'm anything near convinced on, though). Perhaps its a facet of the two-win conditions and/or multiple factions thing that I find more people suspicious than I do towny - normally it's the reverse.

Anyway, given his posts so far, I think the most logical vote is for Lataro at this point. I thought for a while his voting for Mav might be the result of a power use or post restriction, but that seems more unlikely after the second vote. Thus, until he provides a better content post which persuades me he is not a good lynch:

vote: Lataro

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Lataro » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:33 pm UTC

So, mister k thinks bignose is scummy mcscumpants, then votes me because I'm being lazy, from his perspective. Right. :?:

As to my actions, I really don't see what the big surprise here is. I generally dislike large games for a variety of reasons, and when I don't know the flavor, that dislike gets intensified. The only reason I'm in this game is someone else signed me up (like how I signed Aardvarki up for traitor mafia :twisted: ) and when asked by the mod if I'd play I when the game was otherwise full, I didn't wanna feel like a jerk by saying no after it was in sign ups for so long.

To sum it up, my interest level isn't high in this game, due entirely to it being a large (which I hate in general, I only joined Buffy after the mods made promises to me) and I don't know the flavor, where it appears to be incredibly flavor dependent. I don't even really understand my own role.

If you want to lynch me for that, go ahead and let the bandwagon roll, sorry I'm not more interested in commenting on role spec. If you don't like my vote on BN then tough, I find such lists a great way to active lurk. However, his post immediately following mine made me feel extra warm and tingly. Nice play there BN, making sure to slip it in to people's minds that Bignose=helpful=can't be scum.
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Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
Garak: "Never tell the same lie twice."

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Mavketl » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:49 pm UTC

It's not really going to solve anything now, but in general: why do we let people be signed up by others?

It would be a lot nicer to not have players who don't care and can't really be bothered to play to win.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dark Loink » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:18 pm UTC

I'm here, and am about to do some analysis right now! :O thats great!

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dr Ug » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:38 pm UTC

Hmmm, I haven't really posted here in a while - sorry about that. Finishing the setup for Lost, running NQRia and starting two other new games hasn't helped - but it shall be fixed (at least partly due to my death in Dexterafia).

I must say I'm jumping on the "factions vs factions" game, and I think I know how that works. I think it's "Harkonnen vs Atreides", where any non-members of those houses don't care who wins, and "People who like the spice" (CHOAM?) vs fremen, with people who aren't one of those not caring who wins. Then there are probably a few other random "independent" win conditions, as well as people who are a member of one of each of the two sets of factions (e.g. the heads of both houses are probably part of CHOAM). This is (as I've said earlier) at least partly influenced by where my limited flavour knowledge came from (Dune II), but it seems to fit with the flavour spec that other more informed people have been making.

I must say I didn't like BigNose's earlier posts about "hey everyone, start posting suspicions of people" without doing so himself, but he seems to have reformed a little since then. I'm really struggling to find someone to vote for here... My flavour deficit makes analysis of rolespec a little difficult (I think this is the first time I've played a game with little to no flavour knowledge)...
Where did my old signature go? :(

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Lataro » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:34 pm UTC

Mavketl wrote:It's not really going to solve anything now, but in general: why do we let people be signed up by others?

It would be a lot nicer to not have players who don't care and can't really be bothered to play to win.


It's more of I tend to get lost in big games, and they seem to have a lot of noise in them, and my first exp with them was discmafia where D1 lasted nearly three weeks and N1 lasted well over one week. This is why I generally prefer minis and turbos, as that tends to alleviate the problem. Right now as lost as I am flavor-wise, and as flavor dependent this game is (it's not simply window dressing, it's pretty in-depth), and with this many people in it, I'm not going to read though every single post and reflect on it for each person. I'm going to find a couple people that jump out at me at latch on. When the game gets more managable, though fewer players alive and more mechanics revealed, if I'm alive I could get more into it, for now though, I'm playing very shallowly.

I'd like to win, that is not the issue, I am not going to pour myself into a game though that I don't understand and am pry going to die before I get a handle on it though.
DS9, after being told the story and moral of the boy who cried wolf by Julian.

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Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
Garak: "Never tell the same lie twice."

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Silknor » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:43 am UTC

I must say I'm jumping on the "factions vs factions" game, and I think I know how that works. I think it's "Harkonnen vs Atreides", where any non-members of those houses don't care who wins, and "People who like the spice" (CHOAM?) vs fremen, with people who aren't one of those not caring who wins. Then there are probably a few other random "independent" win conditions, as well as people who are a member of one of each of the two sets of factions (e.g. the heads of both houses are probably part of CHOAM). This is (as I've said earlier) at least partly influenced by where my limited flavour knowledge came from (Dune II), but it seems to fit with the flavour spec that other more informed people have been making.


I disagree because I think the relationships are more complex. For example, the Emperor is not a Harkonnen, but clearly favors the Harkonnens over the Atreides. And vice versa for some of the Fremen. To channel the closest thing I have to an inner Zensunni: "Your assumptions are the straitjacket by which your mind is strangled. You cannot know until you know that you do not know."

Lataro is definitely out of character. So that's somewhat suspicious. However, I really only know how he plays in open games, and this game is about as far from open as is possible.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby greenlover » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:41 am UTC

Okay, after reading through the thread again, here is what I make out of the players. A sandwich. Yum. Now that I have eaten, here is what I think of all of the players:

Silknor (5 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Basically, a long post with a lot of role spec. I believe everyone typically benefits from rolespec, but the discussion is always pretty cool. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 2: Comments that there are probably 1-2 mafia teams with a few independences, and that town probably isn't a majority. Could possibly be true. Neutral

Post 3: Here he states that one of his victory conditions requires him to kill off a certain faction, and runs down a long list of what that could mean. However, the fact that he needs to eliminate another faction makes him a lyncher, which, in a game like this, could be dangerous (unless killing off other factions is pretty common.). Dangerous = scummy in my book. Scummy

Post 4: States that he is just trying to keep the game going, and that he would not be surprised if their were multiple NK's. I can't say that I disagree: in a game of 20 players, only one NK is not enough. Neutral

Post 5: Thinks that the relationships are more complex, and that lararo is acting out of character. Neutral

Verdict: Although he has been pinging me as towny or just not pinging me at all on his three other posts, his third post really painted a lynch target on his back in my mind. Though it is mostly a hunch, it is still there. Scummy leaning Neutral

Adacore (12 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: A joke, made before the game began. If you can get something out of this, you deserve a cookie. Neutral

Post 2: Confirmation. Neutral

Post 3: Does some spec on the structure, and asks for some others to do some spec on the flavor. Spec is a good thing, typically. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 4: Mentions the possibility of a cult. From one who knew the flavor, that might have been taken as wine (as there is now general agreement that no cult exists); but since Adacore doesn't know anything about the flavor, it strikes me as promoting discussion and scouting out possible threats. Townish

Post 5: Believes that most players have one generic win condition, and one more specific win condition. That could very well be true, and it is vague enough to be able to apply to everyone. Neutral

Post 6: Says that we should start scumhunting. Who is going to say that we shouldn't? Doing that would paint a target like non other on your neck. Neutral

Post 7: States that he has been a little slow on the uptake with scum hunting, and then tries to fix it by stating he is getting pings off of Mav. His reasons of being slow on scumhunting work (I myself have been using them), and he did do a little specing. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 8: An honest question, that anyone, both scum and town, could have asked. Neutral

Post 9: States that the more general win condition should be preferred over your individual win condition. That is really up to personal preference: saying that we should prefer one over the other every time is definitely the action of team oriented player. Neutral

Post 10: A massive post detailing his thoughts on the players so far. Pretty awesome, and really in-depth scum hunting material there. Townish

Post 11: Clarification as to what he meant. Neutal

Post 12: Gives a promised summary, votes lataro, calling it the logical choice. I love summaries. Neutral leaning townish

Verdict: Generally, he has had some pretty good content, and as provided some good advise, especially for one who knows so little about the favor. Townish

ameretrifle (13 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Points out mathematical error. I can't think of a reason why that would benefit either scum or town (maybe drive them nuts? IDK).Neutral

Post 2: Confirmation, and likes rule one. Neutral

Post 3: Wonders if Dune would work on her computer. Neutral

Post 4: A smiley. My spec of her post is longer than her post. Neutral

Post 5: Comments that a cult is unlikely, and states that everyone's win conditions are probably not mutually exclusive. Asks if the Harkonnen are the mafia. Not much content here, and what little there is doesn't ping me. Neutral, slightly leaning Townish

Post 6: Talks about English a bit (School! Noooo. . . :shock: ), and then says that the Harkonnen are probably our mafia. Neutral

Post 7: Comments that people probably have a primary and secondary win condition, and then says that no one really cares if you double win. Some honest evaluation. Neutral

[url-http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=65602&p=2378043#p2378043]Post 8:[/url] Says that she doesn't plan on reading any farther into the series than the first book. Neutral

Post 9: States that no one but you will care if you get a double win. Neutral

Post 10: Sarcastically points out that the Harkonnen probably are the bad guys, and then says that we might have to start pointing out minor things, and lynching on those. I really don't like the idea of lynching someone on bad grammar (though some people. . .), but I do agree that the Harkonnen are probably evil. Neutral

Post 11: States that there really hasn't been a lot of content to be discussing; and then states that we should probably move on. Move on without more discussion? Well, I guess we do have 5 pages of. . .not much stuff. This is a honest opinion. Neutral

Post 12: Those going after Lady Jessica are not necessarily scum; wants a vote count from the mod. Could be taken as scum wanting to kill the Lady, but still be considered neutral, or as town pointing out an honest fact. Neutral

Post 13: Wonders if the BE could be going after the Lady, votes for BigNose. Neutral

Verdict: She really was doing a lot of active lurking, which is scummy in my book. However, admittedly, there really hasn't been all that much content to discuss, so I guess it is excusable. She has started to pick up on the content, though not by much, and that gives me a towny feel. Neutral leaning townish

lataro (5 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirms, and says that he knows nothing about the flavor. Neutral

Post 2: Does a random vote on Mavketl, and thinks that this game might be like deathnote. I really don't like random votes; and there was already some discussion going on. Neutral leaning Scummy

Post 3: Unvotes Mavketl, and votes BigNose, with minimal justification. Scummy

Post 4: Wonders what is wrong with his actions, thinks BigNose is suspicious.

Post 5: Says that he is playing shallowly, and will probably get more into the game later, if he is still alive. Neutral

Verdict: Some, but little, content, throwing around some wine, and votehopping. Scummy

greenlover (6 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Well, I guess I really shouldn't spec myself. I will let someone else do that for me ;-P

Dark Loink (5 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation. Neutral

Post 2: Comments that there are probably multiple factions, and that the entire game looks like politics. Probably true. Neutral

Post 3: Does some spec on how the winning conditions work. Neutral

Post 4: Believes that the setup is more scattered, with several different factions. Neutral

Post 5: Promises some content. Neutral

Verdict: Not really getting any vibes from him, but so far he is striking me as a bit scummy: only making safe posts, not posting that much, etc. I would really like to see more content from him, and hopefully he will deliver soon. :-) Neutral remotely leaning Scummy

Brooklynxman (16 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Guesses at the structure of the game. Makes a pretty bad mathematical error, but w/e. Neutral

Post 2: Confirms, and comments on rule one. I think we all like rule one. Neutral

Post 3: Wonders about the legality running some type of game. Neutral

Post 4: States that there is no cult. The truth of that is yet to be seen, but for now, it seems pretty fair to say. Neutral

Post 5: Does some faction spec. It strikes me as being somewhat towny. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 6: Points out that sandworms could, potentially, be lynched. Neutral

Post 7: Walks without rythem, just in case the sandworms are a game mechanic. Neutral

Post 8: Sarcastically points out a grammar error. Neutral

Post 9: Points out that the Honored Matres are a few thousand years into the future, and thus should not be in this game. Thus, no cult. This kinda strikes me as townish. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 10: Sums up Adacore's post by saying that people should not pull a ahippo. Neutral

Post 11: Says that he cares about his double wins, but doesn't remember if he ever got one. I smiled, but it doesn't go either way with me. Neutral

Post 12: Votes for F_C, for his saying that the Harkonan and the Freman could ever work together. That seemed like a pretty hasty vote for me, and hasty votes are a classic scum tell. Scummy leaning neutral

Post 13: Points out the the Harkonans hunted the freman for sport. Thus, they cannot work together. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 14: Points out that CHOAM shouldn't be a player. Neutral

Post 15: Points out that those who have read the books should know that the Harkonans and Freman should not be able to work together. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 16: Says that Mavketl most likely isn't Lady Jessica. Could be a mason buddy covering for an ally, but I doubt it. Neutral leaning Townish

Verdict: He has had some good content, but he jumped on F_C pretty hard. Still, sounds pretty cool. Townish

Mavketl (13 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation. Neutral

Post 2: Some pretty good role spec, and a discussion starter. Neutral leaning Townish

Post 3: Sarcastically points out that the Harkonnon's were pretty bad dudes. That is pretty much generally agreed. Neutral

Post 4: Believes that individuals can be good or bad, regardless of their faction. As I stated before, I agree with this. Townish

Post 5: Believes that there are probably protection-based winning conditions, mason's, and listeners in the game. Probably true, but that is true in most games. Neutral

Post 6: Comments that the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam and Lady Margot Fenring are probably both townish roles. Could be, or could not be. Neutral

Post 7: Gives BigNose a go ahead on scum hunting. If she hadn't, I think she would have been lynched by now. Thus, this is pretty neutral. Neutral

Post 8: Comments that we should lynch if a target comes up. I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that, its all a matter of what that means. Neutral

Post 9: Responds to both Krongs and lataro's posts, by promising a player-by-player spec, and telling lataro to go screw. Ouch. Since she followed through on that first promise, I would qualify this as a promise well made. Neutral leaning townish

Post 10: Gives an analysis of all the players, player by player, and calls bignose out on his actions. Townish

Post 11: Calls BigNose out on his actions (again), and states that she is not Lady Jessica. Both of those things are yet to be confirmed. Neutral

Post 12: States that she doesn't think bignose is necessarily scum, but that he hasn't explained his actions well enough yet. Scum would have probably rode the wave to the lynch. Neutral leaning townish

Post 13: Asks an honest question. Neutral

Verdict: So far, she has had a good bit of content, and a more reserved attitude toward lynching. Both things are pretty towny. Townish

turret/existential_elevator (2 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation. Neutral

Post 2: Promise some content this afternoon/evening.

Post 3: Thinks we are in a free for all/faction situation. Wonders if we should vote for those who voted for Mavketl. Neutral leaning townish

Verdict: Well, no real pings yet, but when she posts more, I should be able to get a read. Neutral

ThatMafiaGuy/PhoenixEnigma (3 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation, and promise of rolespec. Neutral

Post 2: Figured out who he is replacing. Neutral

Post 3: Comments that he has been a bad replacement, that mister k has been pinging him, and that Mavekl hadn't commented on the rumor in the start of day post. Some rolespec, which is good. Neutral leaning townish

Verdict: Once again, there really isn't enough info out their to make a real judgement. However, more off a gut feeling, I think he is somewhat towny. Neutral leaning townish

Krong (9 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation, and a question about the legality of running a kind of game. Neutral

Post 2: Thinks that their is no cult, and that mass claiming might be a bad idea. Also thinks that sandworms might be a mechanic, killing whoever gets close to them. Neutral leaning townish

Post 3: Clarifies what he said in his previous post. Neutral

Post 4: Talks about the theory of two wins a bit, and then mentions minor pings he is getting from Adacore and Mavketl. Neutral leaning townish

Post 5: Reiterates that the pings he got on Adacore and Mavketl were minor, expresses doubt about BigNoses ideas of what the structrure is, and mentions the possibilities of traitor characters. All good points, that I can see. Townish

Post 6: Points out some theoretical flaws in Silknor's idea of structure, and then questions his motives. Could go either way in my book. Neutral

Post 7: Expresses some pings he is getting off of BigNose and Flying_Cookie, and then votes for BigNose. This vote could be qualified as hasty, and the post could be considered a bandwagon. Neutral leaning scummy

Post 8: Asks Andacore a question, and states that he is still getting pings from BigNose. Neutral

Post 9: Does some role spec, states that BigNose might be a good day one lynch. Analysis always earns points with me. Townish

Verdict: Some pretty good content, and mostly seems pretty towny. Has done a few scummy things, but not that much. Townish leaning Neutral

Not A Raptor (4 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation. Neutral

Post 2: Comments that their shouldn't be a cult, or we don't need to worry about it. Neutral leaning townish

Post 3: Asks if Mavekl is getting an inch to lynch. Neutral

Post 4: Asks Silknor about his winning conditions. Neutral

Verdict: Not really that much content, but so far, he seems pretty towny. However, he is very lurky, and that kind takes him down a notch in my mind. Stop lurking, and he will probably shoot right back up. Neutral leaning Scummy

BigNose (14 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Comments that MoA would like rule one. Neutral

Post 2: States that any computer can play Dune. Neutral

Post 3: Wonders if the game has started yet. Neutral

Post 4: Thinks that no one can achieve two win conditions, except by luck. Also wonders if there is any possibility of a cult. Could be scum trying to confused and separate towny's, but that seems like a long shot. Neutral

Post 5: Wonders if we should start scumhunting. Neutral

Post 6: Jokes that his first suspicion is centered on Mavketl, and then does some flavor spec. Neutral remotely leaning townish

Post 7: Explains his comments on scum hunting, and then goes on to do some analysis on the game. Neutral leaning townish

Post 8: Explains what scum hunting is, to an extent. Seems a bit unnecessary, but not scummy. Neutral

Post 9: Talks about Brook's and F_C conflict, and then votes for Mavketl with little justification. Generally, this post strikes me as a little scummy. Neutral leaning Scummy

Post 10: States the reason why he had not done any scum hunting, and does some other forms of clarification. Neutral.

Post 11: Discusses lurkers, views Mavketl as a "noisy boy", and unvotes. Could be considered a scum trying to cover his tracks. Neutral leaning scummy

Post 12: Clarifies that his vote for Mavketl was rather unwarrented, and reiterates that he does not know the flavor. Once again Could be taken as a scum trying to cover his tracks. Neutral leaning scummy

Post 13: points out that lartaro's vote was rather unwarranted, as he has posted a good bit of content. Could be considered scummy, but not really. Neutral

Post 14: Does some analysis on some of the players, and calls out several players on being quite/claiming multiple winning conditions.

Verdict: He was already striking me as scummy, but then he did that quick bandwagon votehopping thing. Scummy

mpolo (12 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Notifies us that he will be gone. Neutral

Post 2: promise of future analyst. Neutral

Post 3: States that he might have to reread the book, believes the general suspicions are good, and is worried about the cult. Agreeing with the general suspicions is rather scummy. Neutral leaning scummy

Post 4: Points out that we do have common ground: "get rid of the Harkonnens". Keeping town on track, seems good. Townish

Post 5: Makes an observation about secondary winning conditions, and points out that the Harkonnen's supporters are just about as dangerous as the Harkonnen's themselves. Townish

Post 6: States that one of his winning conditions wants him to lynch scum, which would explain his urge to keep town on track. Townish

Post 7: Agrees that scumhunt is the right move. Neutral

Post 8: Points out that we are going to slowly, and promises future analyse. Neutral

Post 9: Writes a massive post, detailing pretty much everything that has happened so far in this game. Calls out lurkers, and FoS's F_C. Neutral leaning townish

Post 10: Comments that the rumors were probably fluff, points out that BigNose was flailing a bit, and that F_C was looking scummy, though he is afraid that it was a honest mistake. Neutral

Post 11: States that he is not giving BigNose a bye, but simply raised the bar. Also states he did the same with lataro. Neutral leaning townish

Post 12: Defends those who have implied multiple win conditions by looking back at the opening post, and wonders if BigNose has only one. Neutral leaning townish

Verdict: I am really getting towny vibes from mpolo, simply because he seems rather determined to get rid of the Harkonnen, a goal I have no problem with. Townish

Flying_Cookie (8 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirmation. Neutral

Post 2: Comments on Dr. Ugs references. Neutral

Post 3: Offers some ideas about how the opening PM's could be shaped. Somewhat useful, though not much. Neutral leaning townish

Post 4: States that he knows some, but not much, of the flavor. Neutral

Post 5: Brings up the idea that the Harkonan and the Freman are not necessarily enemies. Might have been a honest mistake, or it might not have. Neutral leaning scummy

Post 6: Tries to justify his previous post. His justification seems like a stretch to me, and Brook showed its major flaws. Neutral leaning scummy

Post 7: Concedes that the Harkonnan and the Freman being allies is pretty unlikely. Neutral

Post 8: Points out that lurking is a game killer. Neutral

Verdict: I did get a scummy feel from his 5th and 6th posts, but otherwise, he is striking me as pretty neutral. Besides, those two posts may very well be honest mistakes. Neutral remotely leaning scummy

mister k (10 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirm. Neutral

Post 2: A summary of what had been said before him, and suggests that claiming is the last resort to lynching. No pings here. Neutral

Post 3: Encourages people to talk when they see scummy behavior, and promises more content later. Neutral leaning townish

Post 4: Suggests that we play this like normal mafia, and let everyone try to achieve their secondary objective on their own. Neutral

Post 5: Notices a mistake he made in his previous post, and wonders why it is an error. Neutral

Post 6: States that people should seek their primary win condition in front of their secondary win condition. Could be taken either way: pretty good advise for both scum and town. Neutral

Post 7: Points out that the advise in his previous post shouldn't be considered primary in all situations. Neutral

Post 8: Points out that BigNose hasn't done any scum hunting yet. Neutral slightly leaning townish

Post 9: Agrees with Brook that Mavketl being Lady Jessica would be rather contrary to the opening post, and votes for BigNose, in a attempt to get discussion back on him. Honestly, this could be considered a scum trying to rush a lynch, or a town who thinks that their has been enough discussion for now. Neutral

Post 10: Examines of every player, and voted for lataro. Townish

Verdict: For the most part, mister K is striking me as townish, though not by a whole lot. Townish leaning Neutral

cycoden (2 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Apology's for not getting to this game sooner. Thinks that each house may have its own kill, doesn't know how the Emperor would fit into the setup, isn't sure about a cult, is rather suspicious of BigNose, and is more suspicious of F_C. Neutral leaning townish

Post 2: Clarifies part of what he said in his first post Neutral

Verdict: So far, he is striking me in a rather towny way, but he really, really, needs to post more. Neutral

b.i.o (9 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Confirming. Neutal

Post 2: Adds to Mavketl's role specing. Neutral leaning townish

Post 3: A huge data dump, probably hitting every possible role in the first book. Townish

Post 4: Promises additional spec on what all that data means. Neutral

Post 5: Believes that there really isn't a cult, because the only cult-like organization in the books is well out of the scope of this game. Neutral leaning townish

Post 6: Believes it is simplistic for factions to be totally allied, though their winning conditions might over lap. Provides a list of possible winning conditions for each possible faction. Neutral leaning townish

Post 7: Points out that CHOAM might be a secondary alignment of some players, if not a player itself. Neutral

Post 8: Corrects BigNose on Mavkelt's gender, and wonders why BigNose capitalizes "Mod". Neutral

Post 9: Promises analyze of the game, states that he doesn't find anyone horribly suspicious. Neutral

Verdict: It might just be his willingness to share his knowledge of the flavor with the rest of us, but I am getting some pretty towny pings from b.i.o. Neutral leaning townish

weiyaoli (7 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post : Confirmation. Neutral

Post 2: States that he doesn't know much about the flavor, and that a cult is pretty likely. Neutral

Post 3: Wonders what the cut off point for the flavor is. Neutral

Post 4: Wonders what the difference it makes in scumhunting that players have multiple winning conditions. Neutral

Post 5: Thinks BigNose is being confusing, and thinks F_C made an honest mistake. Wonders how familiar cyclen is with the flavor. Neutral leaning townish

Post 6: Corrects himself, having seen the beginning of cyclons post. Still thinks it is misleading to make something look like common knowledge when it is not. Neutral

Post 7: Is unsure how BigNose reached his conclusion, and doesn't think that the BG would be after Lady Jessica. Neutral

Verdict: He has been somewhat active, even though most of his posts have been questions. He posted some content, though not much, and, overall, is striking me as towny. neutral remotely leaning townish

Dr Ug (9 posts, total)
Spoiler:
Post 1: Reference to Dune the game. Neutral

Post 2: States that Dune that game is one of his favorite of all time. Neutral

Post 3: Comments that he just wasted 6 hours playing dune II. Neutral

Post 4: States that Dune can be played by pretty much anyone.

Post 5: Some talk that I assume is a reference to the game Dune. Originally thought that it was factions, but then decided that it was probably town v scum setup. Neutral

Post 6: Thinks that sand worms are not player in this game, citing flavor to support that point. Neutral

Post 7: Points out that all win conditions hold the same weight. Neutral

Post 8: Thinks that double wins are awesome. Neutral

Post 9: Is sorry for not posting sooner, thinks that we are dealing with multiple factions, didn't like BigNose's wish for others to scumhunt without doing so himself, but then says that he has reformed a bit since then. Neutral leaning townish

Verdict: I really cannot get a read on Dr Ug. I would say that he is an active lurker, except that he has posted content. Just not content that can get you labeled towny or scummy. Neutral

From what I posted above, I believe that the following are justified (These are also the four people I find most scummy, from least to most):

IGMEOY: F_C

FoS: Silknor

FoS: BigNose

Vote: lataro

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greenlover
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby greenlover » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:42 am UTC

EBWOP: Next time, I will find a faster way to do that. Making the above post took about 12 hours, off and on. That is way to long for a mafia post, IMO.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:45 am UTC

greenlover wrote:EBWOP: Next time, I will find a faster way to do that. Making the above post took about 12 hours, off and on. That is way to long for a mafia post, IMO.


Yes, we can tell. Just do the few players you feel scummiest about next time.
We figure out what all this means, then do something large and violent

The thing about changing the world...once you do it the world's all different.

I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys.

Spoiler:
Image

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Krong
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:47 am UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:
greenlover wrote:EBWOP: Next time, I will find a faster way to do that. Making the above post took about 12 hours, off and on. That is way to long for a mafia post, IMO.


Yes, we can tell. Just do the few players you feel scummiest about next time.

Err... yes. It's kind of hard to wade through all that, too, though the summary at the bottom (vote, FoS's, IGMEOY) helps.

Since it's been asked for... unofficial votals and voting history:

Page 1

Page 2
Lataro votes Mav

Page 3

Page 4
BXM votes F_C
BigNose votes Mav
Krong votes BigNose
mister k votes BigNose
BigNose unvotes
Lataro unvotes, votes BigNose

Page 5
AMT votes BigNose
Adacore votes Lataro
greenlover votes Lataro


Unofficial votals:
Flying_Cookie (1) - Brooklynxman
BigNose (4) - Krong, mister k, Lataro, ameretrifle
Lataro (2) - Adacore, greenlover

And yes, I'm aware that this is one of those "look like you're being useful" things, but I only do this when I'm losing track of the votes myself. For instance, had no idea how far along the BigNose wagon was, and whether we have enough that people might be voting just to finish the day off. I don't think we're quite at that point yet, though.

Along those lines, AMT's vote post pinged me a bit. It seemed like someone joining onto what they thought was already a bandwagon. Her point that "if anything's going to happen, it would have happened by now" does sound like a bit of "why aren't we voting yet", though I'm not sure that's necessarily scummy.

I'm very glad that BigNose has decided to post something that resembles scumhunting, but I feel like it's too disjointed and too late, for as much as he's been talking about it. I am curious, though, what Dark Loink has to say about Mav, since it sounds like he was referring to the day-start "rumor", but I don't see why that would make him more suspicious.

Also, something about Lataro's recent posts made me actually believe him on his reasoning for his questionable vote. I'm scared. It's also probably a sign that I need sleep.
The answer to the question "What’s wrong with the world?" is just two words: "I am." -- G. K. Chesterton (attributed)

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:16 am UTC

So we need to move on with Day 1 sooner or later, and I don't find a real pattern of scumminess anywhere. Let's look at the three vote leaders:

F_C's comment seems more innocent the farther away from it we come. (Though we have some inactivity on that side as well, which a negative reading would interpret as trying to let us forget about the little flavor slip.) More posting, please!

Lataro - I understand that he doesn't like large games. I understand that he is struggling with the flavor. And yet the only posts he has with content are the ones explaining why he isn't giving us any content. He's in deep lurk mode and at the same time trying to post often enough to not get lynched. This is what we tend to label as active lurking, and it can be a scumtell at times.

BigNose - My feelings here are more complicated. I have never had a game with BigNose where I felt really sure that he was town (except maybe Doctored, where he was lynched anyway and so we lost twenty dollars and my self respect by N1). There's always something that I find "off" in his posting. (I am gradually overcoming this tendency in Lataro, by the way.) He was pushing the start of direct scum-hunting, to move the game out of his flavor-blindness, but then didn't really participate in the first day or so. This is actually almost forgiveable: he is overwhelmed by flavor and pleads for more "normal mafia" type conversation so that he can more actively look for scumtells. He's being reasonably active now, although some of his analyses read "funny". I think that I would prefer to hold off for a day or so to see where his loyalties really lie. That is, I am currently not convinced of his scummitude, but still not 100% convinced of his townitude.

If I get some more time today (I have a lot of classes and the "St. Martin's procession" today, though), I'll take a look to see if there is someone else who is scummier than these three. For now, I'm going to go with:

Vote: Lataro

Reasons:
1) active lurking
2) his general disinterest in the game -- i.e. put him out of his misery

(The danger with 2 is that he might actually be someone important, but on the other hand, if he's not really playing, that is almost moot.)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:10 am UTC

Unofficial votals:
Flying_Cookie (1) - Brooklynxman
BigNose (3) - Krong, , Lataro, ameretrifle
Lataro (4) - Adacore,mister k, greenlover,mpolo

(you missed that I changed my vote)

Lataro's defence is insufficient to me. I'm happy with my vote as it is.
Elvish Pillager wrote:you're basically a daytime-miller: you always come up as guilty to scumdar.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:59 am UTC

weiyaoli wrote:
BigNose wrote:
weiyaoli wrote:I can't see the different win conditions make that much of a difference in scum hunting. Although there are no black and white scum and town factions, I think I get the impresson from wiki and role spec so far that in general the house harkonnen are generally the faction that is most likely to be scum and because it will be difficult to figure out from the thread exactly what faction someone belongs to, I think the "default" view this game will be adopting will be generally anti-harkonnen.
This pings me as 'I am Harkunnen and I am Scum'.


I'm not sure how you got that from people will probably try to act "anti-Harkonnen" instead of acting "town" because Harkonnen is the obvious scum in this game and there are a lot of grey areas in the other factions.

See, here again this pings me as not right. You always act Townie, not anti-Scum.
We don't even know that Harkonnen are Scum, though I can agree with it.

Must go atm - Meeting
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dr Ug » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:01 am UTC

Silknor wrote:
I must say I'm jumping on the "factions vs factions" game, and I think I know how that works. I think it's "Harkonnen vs Atreides", where any non-members of those houses don't care who wins, and "People who like the spice" (CHOAM?) vs fremen, with people who aren't one of those not caring who wins. Then there are probably a few other random "independent" win conditions, as well as people who are a member of one of each of the two sets of factions (e.g. the heads of both houses are probably part of CHOAM). This is (as I've said earlier) at least partly influenced by where my limited flavour knowledge came from (Dune II), but it seems to fit with the flavour spec that other more informed people have been making.


I disagree because I think the relationships are more complex. For example, the Emperor is not a Harkonnen, but clearly favors the Harkonnens over the Atreides. And vice versa for some of the Fremen. To channel the closest thing I have to an inner Zensunni: "Your assumptions are the straitjacket by which your mind is strangled. You cannot know until you know that you do not know."
I don't see how this isn't what I said. There are people who are Harkonnen who want people who are atreides dead. There may be people who aren't Harkonnen (like the emporer) who want the same. There are people who are atreides, who want people who are harkonnen dead. There may be people (probably are) who aren't atreides, but want the Harkonnen dead (probably several fremen). Similarly for fremen vs CHOAM.
Where did my old signature go? :(

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Mavketl » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:12 pm UTC

Krong wrote:I am curious, though, what Dark Loink has to say about Mav, since it sounds like he was referring to the day-start "rumor", but I don't see why that would make him more suspicious.
Maybe he's Thufir Hawat? :P Anyway,
Dark Loink, over 12 hours ago, wrote:I'm here, and am about to do some analysis right now! :O thats great!
I'm looking forward to that.


The current lynch leader seems to be Lataro. I agree that he's acting rather anti-town, but
mpolo wrote:2) his general disinterest in the game -- i.e. put him out of his misery

(The danger with 2 is that he might actually be someone important, but on the other hand, if he's not really playing, that is almost moot.)
Added to that, if he's playing badly because he doesn't care, it'll be hard to gain any information from his identity.

Maybe Dark Loink's analysis will bring us something!
Not A Raptor: Mav can be a very wily and dangerous player.
roband: Mav has a way of making everything seem right.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:23 pm UTC

Dr Ug wrote:I don't see how this isn't what I said. There are people who are Harkonnen who want people who are atreides dead. There may be people who aren't Harkonnen (like the emporer) who want the same. There are people who are atreides, who want people who are harkonnen dead. There may be people (probably are) who aren't atreides, but want the Harkonnen dead (probably several fremen). Similarly for fremen vs CHOAM.
This is strange.

He seems to state that the Harkonnen want the Atreides dead and vice versa.
He then includes statements of probabilities.

Let's take 1 line at a time:

There are people who are Harkonnen who want people who are atreides dead.
This states that he KNOWS that Harkonnen wants to kill Atriedes. How does he know?

There may be people who aren't Harkonnen (like the emporer) who want the same.
Here, he speculates there maybe the Emperor.

There are people who are atreides, who want people who are harkonnen dead.
Again, he seems to have inside knowledge.

There may be people (probably are) who aren't atreides, but want the Harkonnen dead (probably several fremen).
More speculation which I would expect.

He swings between the definitive and the probable. That would only come from inside knowledge.
The question is: Harkonnen or Atriedes or is this a deliberate outsiders (Indy) attempt at tying factions.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:34 pm UTC

I don't know. I read Dr Ug's statement as coming from flavor, not from inside knowledge of the game (though there is probably some inside knowledge involved, as he obviously belongs to some faction in the game).
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby weiyaoli » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:55 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:I don't know. I read Dr Ug's statement as coming from flavor, not from inside knowledge of the game (though there is probably some inside knowledge involved, as he obviously belongs to some faction in the game).


I agree with this. I think even for someone pretty clueless on the flavour like me, reading all the role spec so far and doing some searches on wiki that there is a conflict between the Atriedes and Harkonnen. I think it's fairly safe to assume that their win conditions would reflect this.

The swinging between the probable and definite is going to be down to he doesn't know if there are roles that aren't atreides that want house harkonnen dead and vice versa are in the game (He seems to be saying that they probably are but he's not sure) whilst he can make the others more surely as they are 99.9% chance of being correct.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:13 pm UTC

I would disagree with knowledge from flavour, especially as we haven't been able to discern for ourselves whether Harkonnen are Scum or not.
My own tendency is to say that they are, but it's a probable rather than definitive.

OK, something to keep in mind.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:03 pm UTC

BigNose wrote:I would disagree with knowledge from flavour, especially as we haven't been able to discern for ourselves whether Harkonnen are Scum or not.
My own tendency is to say that they are, but it's a probable rather than definitive.

OK, something to keep in mind.


Again, I say Frank Herbert himself once compared the Harkonnens to Nazis. Nazis, aka history's bad guys. Harkonnens = bad. Everyone else there is room for swaying on (heck I'll give you that Feyd may be good or at least useful to us as he wants the Baron dead). But the books version of nazis pretty much have to be evil.
We figure out what all this means, then do something large and violent

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I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys.

Spoiler:
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Flying_Cookie » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:41 am UTC

I think I remember people saying that the Emperor would be on the side of the Harkonnen, and while this is true towards the beginning of the book, around three quarters of the way, the Emperor suspects that the Baron is trying to build his own army of [Emperor troop name here] level soldiers, and seems to be thinking about removing the Harkonnen as well.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dark Loink » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:22 am UTC

I've had less time to work on it than I've though, so my thinking may be split into peices. Trust me, this is for the best.

I've promised it...not done it...promised it...procrastenated...and now, good peoples of today, I'm giving it to YOU

PAGES 1-2:People analysis.
Spoiler:
Small(I will post) posts are not counted, to save time.

Adacore:

Starts off with flavor spec, 2 1/2 paragraphs as the first post. Is first

to mention(and believe me, it will be mentioned again) that factions will

still have different win conditions. Good activity for a first post, but

this isn't going to detirmine alignment.

Asks if there is a cult in his next post. Because we want ot be prepared,

and he just modded buffy. Now that is a nice discussion starter, and a

good thing for our flavor masters to answer. Town enough.

Agrees with mav, most people probably have a faction and an indepentent

win (AB) Not sure which should be trusted more (AA,or AB) but a

<b>lot</b> can be gathered from initial win-spec.

Closed set-ups make D1 hard, and agress with MR K that role-spec is really all we have in a closed set-up, and it is early sucm hunting.

ameretrifle:
Halfway through book, and gives ideas of mind control. Says that it is

probably house and independent, so likely AB. I'm seeing a trend with

this line of thinking.

Says english is strange, explains mixup with roots. Doesn't really like factions form book, but harkonnens are likely mafia.
Not sure where to go from here.


greenlover:
Quotes mavketls list about how factions can have players who aren't too

much of a part of it. Green lover says that there is a chance there isn't

a scum group, but instead several sks. He then goes off to list other

possibilities for this game. I hope people haven't tried to push one.

What better way to distance yourself from scum than to say the scum are

distant? But green says #1 is unlikely at the end, so that has made my

scumdar feel better.

Asks what will be revealed upon death. Nothing really there.


Lataro:
Starts stating that he knows NO flavor.

Now says he doesn't know flavor again. Meta-vote Mav. Probably conflicting factions, not his favorite, will be interesting. Not much content.

Silknor: A large amounth of rolespec, giving lists of who, and says Ben-gesseret may not be as atredis as mav says. Good post, lots of content in list form.


Brooklynxman:
Doubts a cult, because the freyman already agreed with Paul, and they

weren't really recruited. Although paul could be a mason leader.

Says Harkonnians have been compared to Nazis, and Corinos aonly care

about power. And Atreides too could have scummy farts, although generally

good.
Ben Gesserit cares about certain players, guild cares about sppice.

Freman care about the plantet, but COULT slide with Atredies.

Drowning the worms is possible, so players not out of picture entirely.

Walks without rhythm.


Says he will not root for but root out harkonnians.



Mavketl:
Remember how I said adacores first post was big for the start?

Yeah. Lots of helpful flavor discussion, which could strike me as

townie-that is a lot of information for scum to give out in the first

post. Although until this point scum were undefinied. But this is a

really good first post. Wow. Town enough, but still need more than one

post.

Replys to Mr.k, saying that she got the thought that harkonians were bad

due to the whole tourture thing.

Then she gives off the comment of how her list is right, but there are

probably good people in harkonean, or bad in atredis. (THIS is what

worried me before, because it could be setting up a defense early on,

say, if she was in one of these "scummy" factions.)


Says that she thinks people have a faction, and probably a more

independent win condition-Duke Leto and Lady Jessica may be mtalking to

each other, for examply. Also cops may get more info. And she also

doesn't get Big nose's example, that his win conditions are in conflict

with each other.

Says Ben Gesserit may have a few good atredis characters, and that flavor suggests the duke to be alive.

Replys to BN, saying that we can do both, and that is important, the same as posts above.

Thinks it is worth getting people to post their knowledge of dune, and only really remembers factions and sand worms. And femen wear suits and recycling units.Sandworm coult=jester.

Replys to nar, saying that if somone is scummy, then why not lynch,. Was responding to BN.


NaR:
Says Paul atredis is the only real likely cult leader, and he used it to

attack the probably scum. So we probably don't have to worry about a

cult, as there is probably no cult. Or if there is a cult-"We don't have

to worry about it existence". That worries me a bit, but time to keep

going.

Questions Mav on being eager to vote.


BigNose:
Says that getting two wins is going to be hard. If you know about faction

X, but not Y, you will have trouble. This means he is probably one of

those AA's, faction faction, and has one that he is a bit worried about.

Could be a townie one and a...less townie one that he isn't sure how to

acheive. Thats how I got in anyways. Conflicting factions would be scumy

and townie... First person to even suggest an AA set-up though.

Says that we aren't scumhunting. As has been brought up before, all he does is say it.


mpolo:
Would like to think he was good with flavor, but will probably need to

re-read. General factions ideas are liked, and agrees that cult is an

unlikely possibility. Would rather be safe that sorry however.

Agrees that we need to work more for factions than anything else-again, that only really works in a purely (A,B) set up, (although from spec there are A,A and A, B.)

Krong:
Dr Ug is being silly with his game post, and then goes on about the

mass-claiming idea. Because some confirmed townies are obvious kill

targets, they don't want to be known. And factions mates may not be

pleased to know some of the peoples wins in their faction. Goes on to

talk about sandwerms, and says if there are any sandworms, probably not

safe to be near. Although the real reason claim thing, if krong were

cult, would be a way to distance the possibility. But I think he is town

so far.

Says sandworms may be mechanic-sandworm lynching unlikely.




Misterk:
Says the set-up seems pretty simple then. Town + masons(although nothing

confirmed the masons thing)and maybe atredis tratoir, and also mantions

how he thinks harkonnian were only scum because they weren't

protagonists. Somewhat scummy, but agrees with them being scum. Also

brings up second motivations.

Says that cult doesn't seem very likely flavor wise.Although may as well

assume that there might be, just to be safe.

Says rolespec is meant to generate discussion, and catch scumtells. If someone sees sometihng scummy, say so.

Says that we should still root for harkoneens, and even though we have other factions, should focus on faction goal.

Says that the language thing is interesting, Root for and root out.

Flying_cookie:
Says roles go like this
You are X
Win with
Want this to happen
(Once again, (AB). Faction/independent. Not faction faction. Big nose was the first to bring (AA) up.)


bio:
Starts off with big bunches of rolespec as well. Agrees with

basics(Atredis=town, Harkonnian=scum) And gives some insight to otyher

things as well as a list of roles he thinks are possible, and what they

would be. Extrememly helpful to, say, rolecops.


weiyaoli: Says most flavor knowledge is from the wiki. So he isn't going

to be posting much content.
Another reason people may not want to roleclaim is because of lynchers.

Also, cult is what he thinkis is the likely possibility.

Dr Ug:

Gives joke post based off of the game. Early on, so that's alright. Says

he thought houses were just factions, but goes on to say that its

probably bad and good from mav's post are accurate.

Thinks all players are human.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:34 am UTC

I think that'll help summarize some of the points people have made, DL, but ermm... who do you think is scummy?

Dr Ug wrote:I don't see how this isn't what I said. There are people who are Harkonnen who want people who are atreides dead. There may be people who aren't Harkonnen (like the emporer) who want the same. There are people who are atreides, who want people who are harkonnen dead. There may be people (probably are) who aren't atreides, but want the Harkonnen dead (probably several fremen). Similarly for fremen vs CHOAM.

Apologies for removing the context, but the quote pyramid was getting large.

You seem to be arguing that the game is set up like a cross shape (+), with Atreides opposite from Harkonnen and Fremen opposite from CHOAM. The point we're making is that that's way too simplistic, even if you say "and there are independents". Atreides and the Fremen should be pretty strongly allied, while CHOAM might be in mild opposition to both (since neither would seem as likely to them to guarantee the flow of spice as Harkonnen). And this isn't including the BGs, or whether the Emperor would be separate in motivation from CHOAM, or whatever. As Silknor said, you might want to break out of the flavor from the computer game.

Also... um, this game's slowed down suddenly, especially if we're getting back to rolespec. I hope this isn't going to be another "lurk until deadline" game.

Also also, sorry for the miscount, mister k!
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:49 am UTC

mister k wrote:Unofficial votals:
Flying_Cookie (1) - Brooklynxman
BigNose (3) - Krong, , Lataro, ameretrifle
Lataro (4) - Adacore,mister k, greenlover,mpolo

(you missed that I changed my vote)

Lataro's defence is insufficient to me. I'm happy with my vote as it is.

OUCH. Yeh, I didn't realise that I was in that position. I knew that people weren't happy with me (nothing new there), but I think I had 4 votes on me for a while.

Also, I know where Lataro is coming from. I also feel that Large games are not my preferred style. As I have just seen in another thread, someone took 12 hours to compile a player by player analysis. I don't have 12 hours in any day, so catching up and post by post analysis isn't going to happen soon.
Voting for Lataro is a potential easy way out and while it might be a good thing for him, it may not be for us.

OK, I still don't see a lot of activity from a quite a few players. One who I think is missing is NaR, but without doing a full analysis, I can't be sure and last time I tried, I got abused (do it again please - I luv it).

If/when I review my lurker list, then I can make an informed (you and me) decision.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby existential_elevator » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:54 am UTC

I apologise if I'm not being as active as I like, I'm still baffled by the flavour. Thanks very much for the analysis, Dark Loink, it's very useful.

vote: Lataro

I'm adopting this as a feasible cross-game strategy. I also think we may know things Day 2, so I'm sort of happy to try and get the awkward Day 1 times over.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:05 am UTC

DL didn't DO any analysis. Its not an un-useful post, but its not really content frankly.

I am kind of willing to push to day 2 at this point. I dunno, lataro's reasons are ok, but if he doesn't want to be in this game he needs to get a replacement, not to vote like a silly person.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby existential_elevator » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:08 am UTC

Ah, you are right, I meant to thank greenlover. I found both posts helpful, though, in a thread this big it's useful to have both kinds of analysis.

You raise a good point about Lataro, but at the same time I worry we might be pressing on modkill rather than replacement territory soon, since this game has already had a fair few replacements from what I can see.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:21 am UTC

Posting is slowing, so I shall institute a time limit; shall we say approx 72 hours from now? I may in transit at that time, so it won't be precise.

Lynch with majority, deadline lynch with plurality if >15 people have voted, RANDOM NON-VOTER MODKILL if <16 people have voted.
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