Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby greenlover » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:29 pm UTC

Lataro wrote:Since I don't really know any flavor here, I'll provide a different kind of content.

Vote: Mavketl

You know why. :twisted:

She does, I'm sure. I don't, and I am pretty confident no one else does, either. Would you care to elaborate on your reasons, or was this just a random vote?

As it stands, all of this rolespec and flavor talk is going about right past me, 5 feet above my head. So, yeah, forgive me if I don't comment on that; except to say that sandworms would be awesome.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Flying_Cookie » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:03 am UTC

About two months ago I bought Dune, and read it.
I don't remember many names, but I recall the plot and that stuff.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:02 am UTC

BigNose: I read Dune maybe 6ish years ago, and have been using Wikipedia for a refresher.

I feel like this idea of most players having two win conditions is going to have a rather unfortunate side-effect D1: there's going to be more people hanging back to see what happens in order to keep both of their win conditions intact as long as possible. Even though technically losing one win condition doesn't interfere with one's ability to win the game, I think psychologically it will. By that I mean, if I have the two win conditions "Paul Atreides must survive" and "Eliminate House Harkonnen", I'll probably be less eager to lynch than I would if only the latter were my win condition.

Now, before I get sidetracked into thinking about game theory and the meaning of "one win or two wins" vs. "half a win or a full win" in a game where everything's made up and the points don't matter...

I got a minor ping from Adacore and Mavketl for their encouraging BigNose to scumhunt. It's not that BigNose shouldn't be scumhunting -- it's that we all should be as soon as we see something. It was very polite, in a "please, you first" sort of way, but it looks like they're hanging back a bit, especially since mister k had already made the few points contained in their two posts.

It's not much, but it's somewhere to start, along with Lataro's meta-vote.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Mavketl » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:13 am UTC

Krong wrote:I got a minor ping from Adacore and Mavketl for their encouraging BigNose to scumhunt. It's not that BigNose shouldn't be scumhunting -- it's that we all should be as soon as we see something. It was very polite, in a "please, you first" sort of way, but it looks like they're hanging back a bit, especially since mister k had already made the few points contained in their two posts.
Okay, let's try this again.

Everyone was rolespeccing, trying to figure out different factions and how the system works, et cetera. BigNose has not contributed to that except for his "achieving both your win conditions is pure luck, not skill"-post. He then asks if we can start scumhunting, which I interpreted as "y'all are being boring and useless, can the real game please start?". Notably, he wants people to scumhunt without doing anything of the sort himself. So he doesn't want to rolespec, and he doesn't scumhunt, but he wants everyone else to do the work for him. I think that is pretty uncool, but I didn't want to be as critical and mean as I'm being now, so I just went with "go ahead, scumhunt!" rather than "why the hell would we have to do all the work for you? get off your ass and do something yourself!".

I will hopefully have the time to do post-by-post or player-by-player analysis sometime soon, will that soothe your worries about hanging back? :P

As for the meta-vote... Lataro, screw you. You killed me, not the other way around, so if anyone should be casting grudge-votes it's me. :P

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:37 am UTC

PhoenixEnigma is replacing ThatMafiaGuy. Awesomesauce.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:39 am UTC

Hello, folks, I'm replacing...er, I'm not even sure, actually.

It doesn't look like there's a mind boggling amount to get through, yet, so hopefully I'll be taking a more active role soon. Although a quick skim indicates a lot of role spec, which I'm a little rusty on.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:39 am UTC

EBWOP: Oh, ok, that's who I'm replacing. Excellent.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Adacore » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:19 am UTC

I don't deny I'm being conservative in going after people. That's largely because I'm trying to understand the setup - I'm not clear if we're in a scum vs town with a few independents situation, or a deathnote-style faction vs faction vs faction situation. Starting the game with no knowledge of the flavour, I wasn't even sure I was one of the good guys (although I became reasonably convinced I am fairly quickly). I certainly can't tell how/if people are spinning the flavour in a way that is pro- or anti- town / my faction.

Having said that, I did get a few pings off Mavketl, but only minor 'something doesnt' feel quite right to me here' feelings. And weiyaoli is the one who I felt responded most like I'd expect a cult leader to when I asked about the cult possibilities (the main reason I posed the question was to draw out responses and identify potential cultists), but since we've established there likely isn't a cult that probably doesn't matter.

All in all, I don't have strong enough opinions on anyone to merit a FoS, let alone a vote, yet. If BigNose does then he should, of course, state them for the town to debate. So yes, in essence, a polite "please, you first" would be a good way to describe my views.

I didn't see it touched on yet, but on the subject of flavour spec - are there any powers the bad guys would be likely to have?

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:50 am UTC

My comments on scum-hunting was my indication that:
a: I am here
b: Cannot provide role information.

I decided to elaborate by adding what information I could. Hence my next post of what I know etc.
Again, this was more about adding a post, than adding content, although I do consider it to have 'some' content.

As I cannot add anything of worth to the role-spec, I (cheekily) requested a start to the game.

To me, this is like any other Mafia game, except that we 'may' have 2 Town factions, as well as a Scum Faction.
The possibilities could also translate into 1 (or more) SK's, but we are now entering the realms of vaguaries.
In simple terms, 'Town' are likely to have some Power Townies and the likes of Paul Atriedes maybe something like a Cop.
But as we do not know who Paul Atriedes is, there is nothing we can do about it, unless he declares or dies.
Repeat ad nauseum.

20 players, probably 4 Scum, 1 SK and the rest are Townies.
Points to look out for are:
Did the lynch or NK contain a Cultist?
How many NK's were there?

Whether the Harkunnon or the Fremen or the Atriedes are Town or Scum is (slightly) irrelevant other than speculation at this moment.
Whether there is a Cult or not, is dependant on the MODs whim.
It is only after N1, that we may get more of an idea.
For all we know, the MOD could have cast the Fremen as Scum, but until we lynch Scum, we are not going to find out.

The purpose of my little 'let's scum-hunt' post, was to see if it started some 'other' conversation.
I also see that Lataro is also looking to start the game (I like him :wink: ).

Basic flavour analysis - good.
In-depth analysis - not too good.
Discussion - good

Me, I like pushing.



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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:44 am UTC

greenlover wrote:What will be revealed about a player's role when they die?
Rolename, allegiences, and some elements of their powers.
BigNose wrote:Given the unusual flavour, do we have any form of Cult/Recruitment?
:roll:
Brooklynxman wrote:Oh, and just in case they are a mechanic....

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Adacore » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:46 am UTC

VectorZero wrote:
greenlover wrote:What will be revealed about a player's role when they die?
Rolename, allegiences, and some elements of their powers.

So not their win conditions?

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:11 pm UTC

Win condition is a function of allegience.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby b.i.o » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:22 pm UTC

My guess (from someone reasonably experienced with the flavor) is that there's no cult. Now, granted, I could be wrong (and I'm always wary of sticking my neck out by saying something like this), but I don't see any of the Paul-Atreides-era factions being very cult-like, and I know this flavor pretty damned well. (Now, if we wanted to go way far into the future the Honored Matres would almost *certainly* be a cult...but that's completely outside the scope of this game I'm pretty sure.)

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:17 pm UTC

b.i.o wrote:My guess (from someone reasonably experienced with the flavor) is that there's no cult. Now, granted, I could be wrong (and I'm always wary of sticking my neck out by saying something like this), but I don't see any of the Paul-Atreides-era factions being very cult-like, and I know this flavor pretty damned well. (Now, if we wanted to go way far into the future the Honored Matres would almost *certainly* be a cult...but that's completely outside the scope of this game I'm pretty sure.)

By a few thousand years, yes. I would be shocked and appaled if they showed up in this game after the claim is that this is based on the first half of the first book.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby weiyaoli » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:27 pm UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:
b.i.o wrote:My guess (from someone reasonably experienced with the flavor) is that there's no cult. Now, granted, I could be wrong (and I'm always wary of sticking my neck out by saying something like this), but I don't see any of the Paul-Atreides-era factions being very cult-like, and I know this flavor pretty damned well. (Now, if we wanted to go way far into the future the Honored Matres would almost *certainly* be a cult...but that's completely outside the scope of this game I'm pretty sure.)

By a few thousand years, yes. I would be shocked and appaled if they showed up in this game after the claim is that this is based on the first half of the first book.


Speaking of which, what seems to be the cutoff point for which flavour is taken out of? (e.g. who is still alive at that point in the book that dies later on in the book?)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:08 pm UTC

The mention of "win condition is a function of allegiance" is actually a bit interesting here. At least my secondary win condition really seemed kind of secondary to me on first reading. But the mod's statement seems to suggest that the people who have my secondary loyalty as their primary loyalty are seeking exactly the same thing as I am. Actually, now I'm seeing this condition as more challenging and workable as a primary win condition. So maybe this revelation of mine doesn't mean much.

But it does mean that Harkonnen supporters are only slightly less dangerous than the Harkonnens themselves.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dr Ug » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:25 pm UTC

I'm a bit surprised everyone is calling them "secondary" win conditions - there is equal weighting on both (they each count for 1 win), so at any point in the game I would expect players to go for whatever is their most achievable win condition. This may involve completely giving up on the other one, and there's no reason to suggest that would necessarily be the one that is listed second. After all, 1 win is better than 0 wins.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Adacore » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:50 pm UTC

That does raise an interesting point - if you're in a situation where it's technically possible to get both wins, but you think the chances are maybe 10%, with a 90% chance of not getting either whereas you could concentrate on one win with a 50% chance of success, which option would/should people pursue?

Also, I'd like to say the option that is pro-town (or pro-faction, at any rate) should be 'preferred' as a primary win condition, personally. Helping others in your faction win is just as important as winning yourself, imo. Basically if you go for a 'solo' win condition (lyncher or survivor, for example), you get 1 win. If you go for a faction win condition and your faction has 20 players, you get 20 wins - the second option is far better.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:54 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:That does raise an interesting point - if you're in a situation where it's technically possible to get both wins, but you think the chances are maybe 10%, with a 90% chance of not getting either whereas you could concentrate on one win with a 50% chance of success, which option would/should people pursue?

Also, I'd like to say the option that is pro-town (or pro-faction, at any rate) should be 'preferred' as a primary win condition, personally. Helping others in your faction win is just as important as winning yourself, imo. Basically if you go for a 'solo' win condition (lyncher or survivor, for example), you get 1 win. If you go for a faction win condition and your faction has 20 players, you get 20 wins - the second option is far better.


You should obviously optimise your expected gains, so 0.1*2<(1*0.5). Although, two wins is obviously more awesome, and makes you a better person than everyone else there.

Choosing your pro-town condition is primary isn't just nice, its smart- acting pro town makes you not be lynched, which makes you more likely to win.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:55 pm UTC

mister k wrote:
Adacore wrote:That does raise an interesting point - if you're in a situation where it's technically possible to get both wins, but you think the chances are maybe 10%, with a 90% chance of not getting either whereas you could concentrate on one win with a 50% chance of success, which option would/should people pursue?

Also, I'd like to say the option that is pro-town (or pro-faction, at any rate) should be 'preferred' as a primary win condition, personally. Helping others in your faction win is just as important as winning yourself, imo. Basically if you go for a 'solo' win condition (lyncher or survivor, for example), you get 1 win. If you go for a faction win condition and your faction has 20 players, you get 20 wins - the second option is far better.


You should obviously optimise your expected gains, so 0.1*2<(1*0.5). Although, two wins is obviously more awesome, and makes you a better person than everyone else there.

Choosing your pro-town condition is primary isn't just nice, its smart- acting pro town makes you not be lynched, which makes you more likely to win.



Actually, there are some situations where the pro-town move is to get lynched to save someone else you know to be more powerful. Obviously it depends on what your conditions are as to whether thats viable.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:57 pm UTC

I think it depends on the type of second-win. Mpolo seems to be implying almost that he has a secondary faction loyalty... it's kind of hard to read. That would clearly be harder to categorize, at any rate. More of us seem to have a more 'individualized' win condition, which I think is the one we're tending to refer to as "secondary". I know I'm not going to give mine a lot of attention; it's harmless enough, but at the moment it looks nearly impossible. If this changes, I'll take advantage of it as best I can, but...

No one actually cares if you doublewin. Take it from someone who's been there. :P

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:00 pm UTC

At least for me, one of my conditions I can directly work towards, and the other I just have to hope turns out (at least until very late in the game). And the way to work directly towards my win is to lynch scum. So I guess I have to start analyzing or something. However, it is too late at night now (Just updated from Fedora 13 to Fedora 14, and was waiting for yum to finish the update -- currently on 629/747 downloads -- but I'm giving up and going to bed. I can worry about getting everything to work tomorrow.)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dark Loink » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:25 pm UTC

On the winning debate(Wouldn't it be terrible to have harrnoken and Atredis?) These are pretty much the possible things
A. Need a certain faction to win
B. Need some sort of independent win condition to win
And the likely possibilities are
AA(Need to work with multiple factions, and want both to win)
AB(Have a faction and some sort of inpendent role condition-lyncher, survivor, jester, those kinds)
BB(Have TWO independent condidtions, and don't really care who wins in the long run)
I'm guessing this game is mostly a mixture of AA's and AB's, making the AB's the main independent ones. But I'm guessing there are a few BB's, just so we have a few wildcards in there. AAs and AB's can be scum, of course.But, more scum are likely AB's, I would guess, while town would have the majority of the AA's.
I'll look through, Mav seems somewhat worth watching for me, but thats more gut feeling and speculation. I'd rather not get into the reasons yet, because if I'm wrong it would just make things worse.
Expect a post more paying attention to what people say what(analysis!) in the next few days or so.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:55 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:That does raise an interesting point - if you're in a situation where it's technically possible to get both wins, but you think the chances are maybe 10%, with a 90% chance of not getting either whereas you could concentrate on one win with a 50% chance of success, which option would/should people pursue?

Also, I'd like to say the option that is pro-town (or pro-faction, at any rate) should be 'preferred' as a primary win condition, personally. Helping others in your faction win is just as important as winning yourself, imo. Basically if you go for a 'solo' win condition (lyncher or survivor, for example), you get 1 win. If you go for a faction win condition and your faction has 20 players, you get 20 wins - the second option is far better.


Let me sum up: Don't pull an ahippo.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:02 am UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:Let me sum up: Don't pull an ahippo.

Agreed. *shakes fist in ahippo's general direction*

Mav and Adacore: I did say it was pretty minor, and Mav, the restrained annoyance definitely might have accounted for some of the politeness I saw. :)

BigNose, regarding your faction spec: I don't think it's likely to be as simple as {Scum, SK, 1 or 2 Town Factions} at all. I understand that you don't know the flavor, but if you read the rolespec of others you'll see lots of possibilities for factions with varying degrees of townieness/scumminess. The Bene Gesserit, Corrino, CHOAM, etc.

Also, something that maybe hasn't been emphasized enough is that we've potentially got traitor characters around like Dr. Yueh and (kinda) Thufir Hawat, who may have two nearly-conflicting win conditions. Both of these characters definitely have pro-Atreides characteristics in the book, with Dr. Yueh giving the Duke the means to assassinate the Baron and Thufir Hawat starting out with the Atreides and... err... (avoiding spoiling the end for AMT), he does some good things later, too. However, Yueh helps the Harkonnens in their assault on the Atreides palace, and Thufir Hawat is captured and must stick with the Harkonnens to avoid death. Having conflicting win conditions like this might be why the mod decided to implement it as one/two wins instead of half/full wins.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:53 am UTC

Krong wrote:(avoiding spoiling the end for AMT)

No need, I've now finished the first book and don't have the slightest intention of reading any further. :mrgreen: Others might appreciate the courtesy, though, I suppose. ;)

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dr Ug » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:00 am UTC

ameretrifle wrote:No one actually cares if you doublewin. Take it from someone who's been there. :P
I disagree. Having had two doublewins, I definitely care about that. :) (and was surprised you passed up the chance in HP)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:15 am UTC

Fine. No one but yourself will care if you doublewin. :P

(/totally doesn't still feel a bit slighted over LMS)

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:35 am UTC

I care about my double wins. Not that I can remember ever getting one.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Silknor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:44 am UTC

In general I think we shouldn't assume town vs 1-2 mafia teams with some indeps. It's certainly possible, but it also really oversimplifies the plot dynamics. It's just not the case that one group is the enemy of every other group, at least not in an uncomplicated way. It's possible some of that interconnectedness will come from the second win condition, but I think it's more likely that a "town" per se doesn't exist. True to the book I think would require there to not be a majority faction at all.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Not A Raptor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:59 am UTC

Silknor... does that mean that you don't possess a townish-type role, or are you simply commenting on town size and characteristics?
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:52 am UTC

Silknor wrote:In general I think we shouldn't assume town vs 1-2 mafia teams with some indeps. It's certainly possible, but it also really oversimplifies the plot dynamics. It's just not the case that one group is the enemy of every other group, at least not in an uncomplicated way. It's possible some of that interconnectedness will come from the second win condition, but I think it's more likely that a "town" per se doesn't exist. True to the book I think would require there to not be a majority faction at all.

But, if I simplify down a little, then we do come back to Mafia basics. It's not like Wizardry, with external factors involved.
From memory/thread reading:
Atriedes - Town ish
Fremen - Town ish
BG - Independant. Some might be pro-Town, others Anti-Town
Harkunnon - Scum.
Others - Town or Scum as per MODs whim.
Whether your are Atriedes, Fremen or Townie BG, they are all still Town and don't know each other.
There is probably a Mason group, possibly even 2 given the Factions.
There is 4 (ish) Scum but unlikely to be a Cult (phew).

My point is, Town are still Town - we don't know each other (except Masons) and Scum know about each other and can Night Chat.
If there are Independants, we are not likely to know until they are dead, but we can look for potential signs.
The other potential is for Supporters to show up, both for and against Town/Scum.

This is a call for Scum hunting and less flavour speculation.
Let the dead speak for themselves.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:04 pm UTC

Bignose wrote:Others - Town or Scum as per MODs whim.


Or independent of some ilk.

I agree that scumhunt is the right move now. If we get anything interesting in the lynch/NK, we would obviously return to speculation.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Silknor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:27 pm UTC

Not A Raptor wrote:Silknor... does that mean that you don't possess a townish-type role, or are you simply commenting on town size and characteristics?


The latter, mostly. I'll admit I drew upon my own win conditions (I'm uniformed, but there's nothing to indicate I'm in a majority). So my role posses one, maybe 2, of the classic town conditions.

The general form of one of my win conditions is you win when all the X are dead.

This is consistent with both town and scum win conditions, obviously. Since I'm uninformed (don't know my teammates) there's a few possibilities:
My side is indeed a majority, making me town.
My side is a minority, and team X is a majority, making me scum.

But there's lots of non-traditional options too (I'm going to call my team Y):
Y and X are both minorities, and there is some team Z majority faction. Z is "town", but I'm not anti-"town" here (debatable if Z's win condition is eliminate X and Y, but still not really because my incentive align with theirs to a large degree and I have no reason to go after Zs).
X, Y, Z, and possibly some more are all minorities. Fitting with dune (quoting roughly here): "The tripod is the most unstable of all power structures" Many possible sets of win conditions, eg. X must get rid of Z, Z of Y, Y of X.
At least one of the teams X, Y, Z,..., have a win condition that isn't the elimination of another team.
Y is a lyncher faction, otherwise unrelated to the struggle between X, Z, and other possible factions.

There's probably more options, but I think I've made my point. There's a whole lot of possible options for setups in which "town" has no meaning. And also some in which "town" is well defined, but anti-town isn't accurate for some factions. I'd lean towards the former based on character count.

Atriedes - Town ish
Fremen - Town ish
BG - Independant. Some might be pro-Town, others Anti-Town
Harkunnon - Scum.
Others - Town or Scum as per MODs whim.
Whether your are Atriedes, Fremen or Townie BG, they are all still Town and don't know each other.
There is probably a Mason group, possibly even 2 given the Factions.
There is 4 (ish) Scum but unlikely to be a Cult (phew).


I think this is inconsistent with the book. Most of the Atreides don't have contact with the Fremen. Also you can split the Fremen and Atreides somewhat. The Fremen's plans of ecological restoration are trouble for the BG, guild, CHOAM, and emperor. But not all of these are anti-Atreides. CHOAM and guild doesn't care as long as the spice flows. The BG has reason to be aligned with some Atreides and probably doesn't care about others. The beauty of Dune is that there isn't an uncomplicated these guys are good, these are bad (which of course is reinforced in later books).

By the way. Scumhunt is always the right move (at least defining scum in a way consistent with our best guesses of the game). I think you miss the point of talking about roles and alignment. It's to get people talking, and see who doesn't. You by definition are scumhunting as soon as mod says Day 1. But the form of that isn't the same as it is on Day 5. Rolespec and scumhunt aren't distinct. They support each other. The line can't be clearly drawn, and the transition is always murky. But go ahead, scum hunt. But if you haven't seen something suspicious, it's more useful to at least keep talking than simply saying scumhunt go! (And to your credit, you're continuing to talk about roles/faction).
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:00 am UTC

Silknor, before I go into the rest of this, I kind of get what you're saying, and it kind of makes sense from the book. By a fairly early point in the book, the Harkonnens have taken over the capital city of Arrakeen, and the Atreides are a scattered minority, so it could make sense to have them and their supporters as the "townie" majority while the Atreides are the "scum" who must be hunted down.

The problem with this logic is that it's ignoring the central question of who has power from the nightkill, and I don't see how it makes sense from the flavor to have the Fremen/Atreides running around killing people while the Harkonnens sit peacefully by.

Also... why would you publicly raise this possibility if you're Atreides or Fremen? You'd either assume you're town, or think you may be a scum minority. In the first case, you're trying to convince us that Atreides/Fremen may be scummy, which doesn't make much sense; in the second, you'd rather have the Harkonnen majority assume they're a minority for as long as possible.

I feel like you're trying to figure out your place in this game as some sort of small independent/supportery faction member, doing a little bit of fishing for information. I suppose you could be pro-town, but it certainly sounds like you're not in the Fremen or Atreides faction.

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The answer to the question "What’s wrong with the world?" is just two words: "I am." -- G. K. Chesterton (attributed)

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby weiyaoli » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:07 pm UTC

I can't see the different win conditions make that much of a difference in scum hunting. Although there are no black and white scum and town factions, I think I get the impresson from wiki and role spec so far that in general the house harkonnen are generally the faction that is most likely to be scum and because it will be difficult to figure out from the thread exactly what faction someone belongs to, I think the "default" view this game will be adopting will be generally anti-harkonnen.
And you thought I was crazy...

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:20 pm UTC

Nonsense! All those of House Harkonnen should feel perfectly free to claim so we can warmly accept them as the rightful overlords they are...

...don't think it's gonna fly?

Yeah, I'm a little at a loss with this. I can think of a couple things to follow up on, but they're really vague, even for D1. I was kind of assuming, from my role, that there'd be day-actions... looking back, it doesn't strictly follow, but on the off-chance anyone does have something that could stir up a bit of action, please don't hold out on us. :) Failing that, I guess it's time to start harassing people for minor things. :/

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:15 pm UTC

Well, we seem to be slowing down here. I will try to go through the posts tomorrow or Monday to see if I can produce some analysis of what has gone before. Unfortunately, I don't really have time tonight.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Silknor » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:01 pm UTC

Lurkers aren't helping this.

@Krong: Gooooood....keep your eye on me...may you not see the kindjal behind you...

Seriously though. I'm not really fishing so much as just trying to keep things going. I don't know that there's just one NK either (it's a big game, I wouldn't expect just 1). All I'm trying to say is that if I were the mod, I wouldn't have a majority town faction. Yes, it's easier to set it up that way, but I wouldn't have it like that.
Nikc wrote:Silknor is the JJ Abrams of mafia modding

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Dark Loink » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:42 am UTC

Again on the set-up: This game is not a conflicting factions game.
This is a conflicting players game. However, these players all likely have alligences to at least one "faction" and want that faction to win. There are groups of factions conflicting, and groups of players within factions conflicting. And since we have 5 factions laid our for us, silky has a point, it can't really be a simple town/scum set-up.
That being said, there are scum-like groups and town-like groups, that for the most part follow these roles. In DNL it was still town vs scum, but it was TOWN vs OMICRON/JUSTICE with MEDIA creating their win differently. But there are still groups of town and groups of scum, with some independent. It isn't really going to change the day that much, because acting scummy is still acting scummy. There is some sort of town, and some sort of scum in this game. There are 20 players, and 5 factions we have come up with. That includes independents. So its not like town is 16, scum is 4, more of a scattered set-up, with different factions. But I still believe that the lists are pretty accurate, and everything will still go rather normal, as there is still a town.

Now thats probably all I can get out of role-spec, having all my knowledge of dune be from this thread(I have yet to find the book, but this is giving me the general idea)


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