The Resistance 2 (3-2, Resistance) - Resistance Wins!

[cjdrum]

EBWOP: Bloody hell, math fail.

M3 we need 3 Town (3 Spies out)
M4 we need 3 Town (2 Spies out)
M5 we need 4 Town (3 Spies out)

We need as much info for that last one (and the second last) as possible.

[Gopher of Pern]

Yes....I didn't even see your post.

I do think my idea is better, but I would be willing to go with Chandani and Ibarra, plus one other, as long as it isnt cjdrum or Lataro. One thing we have to keep in mind is that there are 3 spies. So that means, from a town perspective, if Lataro isn't a spy, then there are 3 spies amongst the 4 other people.

cjdrum, we need to keep all spies out of the last 2 missions. Both of them have 4 members, which is all the town players in this game! So, assuming we get 1 of the 3men teams right, means we need to know all the spies by mission 5, or its a crap shoot.

*ninja* you realised your fail and I just realised mine - there needs to be 2 spies in mission 4 for it to fail.

[BigNose]

My reasoning for Ibarra, Chandani & CJDrum is that if we consider CJ as Resistance, then the Mission should Pass.

This immediately puts the Spies on the back foot and if we get a Mission 2 Pass, then we can re-use our Resistance members and the Spies MUST come out of the woodwork, both in getting one of their members into the Team and exposing themselves in their Mission Voting.

This doesn't provide us with information about alignment directly, but will do indirectly.

Scum-tells come from the text that people write and in this case, backed up by Power assignments, Team creation/voting and Mission votes.

But, I understand, that if the Mission fails, then we are lacking some information on others, but will it be any more or less than if the Mission failed by a different set of 3 in the Mission Team?

[jayhsu]

Quick Clarification:

Ibarra, because you put those 3 names in BOLD, that could be interpreted by the MOD as declaring the Mission Team.

I will only interpret that as a team if it is clear that is the team they are proposing. To be safe, use the template provided in the OP.

Also, Lataro is mission leader, not Ibarra.

[Lataro]

Well, we've had a lot of suggestions here. most of them differing.

To me, it all goes back to wanting as much info on everyone else as possible. If we go with a repeat team of the first one plus another, we will have a number of people we have no info on. The way I see it though, we have mission 2 and 3 that require 3 people to go, and of those, we need 1 to pass, this will allow us to wrap up the game M4, which is our best chance here. As I said, it all goes back to info. If this mission passes, we have it in the bag, if not, we can "play it safe" next mission and stand a very good chance on winning the game on the 4th mission. I think this will give everyone collectively the most info.

The current team leader is: Overlord Lataro.
The current mission is: Two.

Proposed Team Member 1: Mavketl
Proposed Team Member 2: Lataro
Proposed Team Member 3: BN

[jayhsu]

The team has been proposed; please vote within 24 hours. Failure to vote will be deemed a REJECTION.

[Mavketl]

Why did you deviate from the "next three people on the list" idea? I fail to see why you would 'generate' more info than GoP, can you explain?

[Lataro]

Hi, I'm my previous post before that one, where I said I wouldn't be including him because I am pretty sure from his posts compared to how he normally is, that he is a spy.

[Mavketl]

Ehm. Oops.

Well, that makes sense then. I'll approve the team.

[Chandani]

I don't see anything wrong with it: it makes sense to get more information so we can use it in the future.

If you guys are wondering why I'm not involved in your discussions (at least for today)... I'm asleep. Or going to school. And by the time I can post, you guys have already decided what teams to make.
If you want, I can post what I think about proposed teams... though they might not be much use now.

[BigNose]

Even though I am part of the team selected, I'm not sure I like the selection.

I will contemplate tomorrow and vote for/against then.

[Gopher of Pern]

I fail to see how this generates more information than other team setups proposed. You have pretty muct ignored everyone else's arguement for your team. And you haven't given a good reason for thinking i am a spy.

We do not need information on every player, but detailed info on 3-4. Your plan won't get us closer to winning.

[Gopher of Pern]

EBWOP

There is also the fact that that team there is going to fail the mission. Any town aside from cjdrum and those not in the team can see that.

[Chandani]

@ GOP:
I'm going to attempt to address your points. If the logic is off, then tell me, or whatever else you want to do.
For the first statement...

I fail to see how this generates more information than other team setups proposed. You have pretty muct ignored everyone else's arguement for your team. And you haven't given a good reason for thinking i am a spy.

We do not need information on every player, but detailed info on 3-4. Your plan won't get us closer to winning.

It does seem like Lataro didn't address why he didn't pick the other arguments exactly, though I guess his point of "more information" kind of covers it. He thinks you're a spy because you're not acting normally, which would be a scumtell in another game, so nothing too wrong there.

About the detailed information...
I guess it depends on how you view the first mission. I feel like you're going under the assumption that the first mission confirmed town (am I right?) or maybe you don't think so and just want to retest them. If it's the first point, I don't think the first mission really means anything. Obviously, the spies (if any) didn't know what the next plot powers were, but what do you think would have happened if someone had failed that mission and lo and behold the 'how did you vote on the mission' card came into play? We would have a confirmed spy (assuming that whoever got the power was town: if they were a spy, then they would paint someone else as a spy, and thus mess up our results. If the person distributed the plot powers randomly, the chances would be towards the town... or maybe they could have just given it to themselves, though that would be really winey). But since no one knew that when the voting was happening, let's go back to the actual scenario. If the spy decided to vote FAIL, the chance of locating them goes up to 50%, which some spies might find okay, while others would not want to take the risk. Since we don't know who the spies are, it's hard to figure out how they would act. And then there's the possibility that both people were spies, and voted SUCCESS in order to not look scummy, though the chance of that mathematically (since I think the first choice was pretty random, since it went off the list) would be 9/196 (chance of two spies picked and the chance of both voting SUCCESS) so that doesn't seem very likely...

TL;DR: Basically, the first mission is really winey. I may have repeated some other points already mentioned, but it's nicely condensed.

About the other one... if you just want to retest them... what's wrong with testing other people? I don't think that we can trust the first mission: therefore, we actually have little to none information on the players. Does it really matter that we're picking new ones?
Of course, you might argue that 'getting more information' isn't right because of the above, which I guess is true. It would be better if we could pick someone who looks scummy, but since we don't have much information...it's just random in the end. So I don't really care.
Why yes, I did change my view. After writing that behemont of a paragraph above, I realized the fault in the reasoning.

EBWOP

There is also the fact that that team there is going to fail the mission. Any town aside from cjdrum and those not in the team can see that.

This is a shout out to everyone: can you state your assumptions at the beginning of this post? Otherwise, I suck at figuring out where you're coming with.
I think you're basing this off two assumptions: 1. That everyone in mission one is town, and 2.That cjdrum is town.
The first one... yeah, I kind of did that already.
The second one...I remember Ibarra's list of possibilites, and the chance that cjdrum is town is decently high (2/3, since the last one, Lataro is Resistance but lying, wouldn't make any sense at all). So I guess that's not too bad.

I just don't like the assumption that the first mission gives you info. Yeah.

(Yay free time!)

[Gopher of Pern]

I never had the assumption that the first mission gave us information. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

My edit point is that: we have 3 spies, and 4 town. Let's assume you are town. You see a mission with Lataro and 2 other people (not including cjdrum). If Lataro is town, the cjdrum is town, due to Lataro's power earlier. So, if the mission were to succeed, all 4 of those players would have to be town. But wait, if you're town, that makes 5 town! Impossible! Thus, 1 of Lataro and the 2 other people must be a spy. That is where I'm coming from.

I suppose it could be useful if you catch 2 spies in the group, but that is a possibility with any 3 people that does not including Lataro. That's why I believe that Lataro should not be on a mission, but if he is, it should be with cjdrum and another person, preferably myself.

Meta:

Spoiler:

As to the claim that I am not acting normally, well, I don't think that is true. I have acted like this in games before, namely dethy and Necro-Cultia (a Lataro game ) Where there are mechanics to be dealt with, instead of just scum tells.

[Mavketl]

The problem with that theory is that it only 'works' for a minority of the players. You can look at the situation from everyone's perspective:

You know (or pretend to know) that you're town. Which means that you know this mission will fail.

But I don't know that. cjdrum, Lataro, BigNose and I have no reason to believe this mission will fail. If there would be any spies among us, they would still have to say that they have no reason to believe that it will fail. Only the three others (GoP, Chandani and Ibarra) "know" that this mission will fail - or if they don't (because they are scum) they will still pretend that they "know" it.

Basically this elaborate theory isn't very different from saying "I know I'm town, so I should be on the mission". Nobody else knows that you are town, and your argument only works if you are.

[Gopher of Pern]

But i'm not (neccessarily) saying "i'm Town, so put me on!" I'm saying, 3 of us here will be getting very little information from this mission. Why don't we pick a team that gives everyone some information, or a mission that will give some people alot of information, not a mission that gives some people some information.

[Mavketl]

EBWOP: That being said, I do think we could've waited a little with proposing a team until there was a sort of unofficial consensus that it would be accepted. Rejected teams are not something we want to happen, ideally.

Ninja: Wait, why does this team give less information than another? It has three people who haven't been on a mission before.

[Gopher of Pern]

Well, to town not involved in the mission, it gives no information, unless there so happens to be 2 spies, and they both fail (or 3 for that matter.) Whereas, say, Mav, BN and cjdrum would give information to townies not involved.

I just think Lataro shouldn't go, unless cjdrum goes with them.

[Mavketl]

I've asked jayhsu to 'pause' my vote (I had already sent "ACCEPT" earlier), but I'm not entirely convinced.

Whereas, say, Mav, BN and cjdrum would give information to townies not involved.

Okay, maybe I'm especially dense at this time of the night, but what information would a fail coming from that team give us that is different from Lataro/BigNose/Mavketl? You need to spell this out for me, because I'm not seeing it.

Wouldn't we rather have information about Lataro than cjdrum, anyway? (Lataro as town confirms cjdrum; cjdrum as town does not confirm Lataro.)

[cjdrum]

It still gives information to Lataro, Mav, BN and me.

This is a majority of players - even though you may not gain information from this, we do. And with me being the main person who doesn't already see (from your posts), I think this is probably optimal.

I don't like how you're playing this, Gopher. It's like you're trying to get onto the team so that you can "confirm" yourself as Town by passing the Mission. Also, now you're saying that a Mission giving info to 4 players isn't the best?
What would your ideal mission team be, then? I'd like to hear this a lot.

Ninja'd by Mav. Basically that, too.

[Mavketl]

I'm going to bed now and I'll read up on stuff in the morning and decide what I want to do.

[Gopher of Pern]

I've asked jayhsu to 'pause' my vote (I had already sent "ACCEPT" earlier), but I'm not entirely convinced.

Whereas, say, Mav, BN and cjdrum would give information to townies not involved.

Okay, maybe I'm especially dense at this time of the night, but what information would a fail coming from that team give us that is different from Lataro/BigNose/Mavketl? You need to spell this out for me, because I'm not seeing it.

Wouldn't we rather have information about Lataro than cjdrum, anyway? (Lataro as town confirms cjdrum; cjdrum as town does not confirm Lataro.)

I'll add 1 caveat to that: Confirming cjdrum as a spy confirms Lataro as a spy.

As a town player, I ALREADY know a fail is going to come from Lataro/BN/Mav. I get no more information from that.
I do not know how Mav/BN/cjdrum is going to turn out. They could all be town. I don't know. In fact, it gives just as much info to Lataro as if Lataro was there himself. So it is clearly a better option.

While, yes I believe the best chance for town winning would be Me/Lataro/cjdrum, I knew it would be a hard sell. I mainly wanted to see Lataro's reaction to it, as if he were town, it would be a good option for him as well. But I am willing to see any combination of 3, as long as it does not include Lataro without cjdrum.

[Chandani]

So this is for my benefit only. Yay visual guide!

Spoiler:

Anyone not on mission (except cjdrum): 3 total
1. I am town
2. Assuming Lataro is town, cjdrum is town
3. If I assume that the rest of the members on the team is town, there are too many town members
Therefore, the mission will fail

People on mission*: 3 total
1. I am town
2. Assuming Lataro is town, cjdrum is town
3. My teammate is town
There are four town members: therefore, the mission will pass

*Yes, I know Lataro is on the team, but I'm not making a special one for him. Just fix it in your mind

Cjdrum: 1 total
1. I am town
2. The people on the mission are town
There are four town members: therefore, the mission will pass

People who will gain information if it passes: it can't pass for people not in mission, and if it passes, the other 4 will have confirmed (ish, since there are heck of a lot assumptions here) town
People who will gain information if it fails: It is going to fail for those not in the mission, and it helps narrow down spies for the other four

Therefore... the mission provides information for just over a majority of the people in this game.
Hmmm. Because of the facts, I guess I'll have to reject this mission.

[jayhsu]

Clarifications: You may edit your vote at any time; however, once 7 votes have been received, or 24 hours have passed, all votes are binding (including the 24 hour auto-vote).

Remember that if you fail to vote, it is deemed a REJECTION (except for the team leader, who is deemed to ACCEPT).

[BigNose]

MOD: If a failure occurs due to not responding within the 24 hours, will this be shown as so, or simply as a FAIL?

[jayhsu]

I'll list it as an 'AUTO-REJECT'.

[jayhsu]

The current team leader is: Lataro.
The current mission is: 2.

Current Team Member 1: Mavketl
Current Team Member 2: Lataro
Current Team Member 3: BigNose

Votes:
1. cjdrum - ACCEPT
2. Lataro - ACCEPT
3. Ibarra - REJECT (Auto)
4. Chandani - REJECT
5. Mavketl - ACCEPT
6. GopherofPern - REJECT
7. BigNose - REJECT (Auto)


The proposed team has been REJECTED. Ibarra becomes the new team leader (Chandani on deck).


Mission 2 is now being proposed.

The current team leader is: Ibarra (Chandani on deck).
The current mission is: 2.

Proposed Team Member 1:
Proposed Team Member 2:
Proposed Team Member 3:

Consecutive Rejected Teams: 1


3 days to deadline.

[Gopher of Pern]

BN, did you mean to do that? It just seems you had time to answer, but chose not to.

Hope Ibarra comes back soon. We don't want any more quick team proposals. We need some discussion first, so that we don't get the missions rejected.

As I said I am willing to go with any 3 people, as long as Lataro isn't on the team without cjdrum.

[jayhsu]

If a team is not proposed by the deadline, it will count as a rejected team.

[Gopher of Pern]

But we get another 24 hours to vote after the team is proposed, right? Even if it's right before deadline?

[jayhsu]

The 24 hours doesn't count towards the deadline.

[BigNose]

BN, did you mean to do that? It just seems you had time to answer, but chose not to.

No, I didn't mean to do that.
I had previously stated that I would vote the next day, but part of that was because I was hoping there would be more discussion on which I could base my decision on. As it happened, no-one stated anything and I just got mixed up with I'm waiting on 1 days-worth of discussion and no discussion occurring.

It just threw me, so I was a little surprised when I saw the Reject slips this morning.

My overnight thoughts were that maybe I should accept it, but as we had a number of Rejections, I don't feel too bad.

The next point to discuss is why we didn't like the Team suggested and what should be the new Team.

The reason I didn't like the Team suggested was that Lataro selected himself to be in the Team & that Mav was also in the Team and those 2 in the Team with me, when I am suspecting that the Mission would fail, means that I would come up deep suspiscion and I am not good enough to take those two on. Also, Mav still has her unknown Plot Power, which doesn't need to be used in the Mission Team, otherwise CJD would have wanted to include her deliberately.

I think a new Team option could be CJDrum & Lataro & A N Other.

[Mavketl]

I'm fine with a Lataro/cjdrum/other set-up. However, we need our mission leader to de-lurk (see: auto reject and no recent posting) if we're ever going to get to proposing a team before the deadline at all.

Maybe a mod-prod for Ibarra?

[Ibarra]

My bad, I've been away on a finance seminar for the past days.

Anyway, I still think having Chandani on the team is a good option. Why? I already explained it. There are 3 people on the team. If you put the person who has the "Keeping a Close Eye on You" plot power (Chandani), and the mission fails, then that reduces the number of possible choice of targets to two for Chandani. If she is Resistance, then one of the two others will be confirmed spy. (This is assuming only one person selected FAIL)

[Assume A is a spy, B is Resistance, C is Chandani. A fails the mission, B and C passes the mission. Two options: 1) C targets A, C gets notified that A failed it. C knows A is a spy. 2) C targets B, C gets notified that B passed it. B may not be confirmed Resistance, but A could only be the one who could have failed it, ergo A is a spy.]

I also want Lataro on the team. It would confirm cjdrum once and for all. If Lataro is Resistance, then cjdrum is Resistance. He hasn't gone on a mission too.

Then if Lataro is on the team, Mav would be the third member, as she and Lataro "bickered" at the start - not to mention she hasn't gone on a mission either.

[Gopher of Pern]

My bad, I've been away on a finance seminar for the past days.

Anyway, I still think having Chandani on the team is a good option. Why? I already explained it. There are 3 people on the team. If you put the person who has the "Keeping a Close Eye on You" plot power (Chandani), and the mission fails, then that reduces the number of possible choice of targets to two for Chandani. If she is Resistance, then one of the two others will be confirmed spy. (This is assuming only one person selected FAIL)

[Assume A is a spy, B is Resistance, C is Chandani. A fails the mission, B and C passes the mission. Two options: 1) C targets A, C gets notified that A failed it. C knows A is a spy. 2) C targets B, C gets notified that B passed it. B may not be confirmed Resistance, but A could only be the one who could have failed it, ergo A is a spy.]

I also want Lataro on the team. It would confirm cjdrum once and for all. If Lataro is Resistance, then cjdrum is Resistance. He hasn't gone on a mission too.

Then if Lataro is on the team, Mav would be the third member, as she and Lataro "bickered" at the start - not to mention she hasn't gone on a mission either.

The first does seem reasonable, but it falters when you consider Chandani might be a spy. And you would get almost the same amount of information if it was Chandani/Mav/cjdrum as Lataro/Mav/Chandani, because the Lataro - cjdrum thing goes both ways : If Lataro is town, so is cjdrum, but if cjdrum is a spy, then so is Lataro.

I like the idea, but I think it would be more beneficial to use Chandani on the 3rd mission, rather than the second. I still think my point of a 3 man team with Lataro without cjdrum trumps this idea.

[Ibarra]

I admit that I hadn't thought about if Chandani was spy.
Assuming Chandani is spy, and A & B are Resistance, then she could falsely accuse either A or B. We should then take her "result" with caution.
However, if Chandani IS a spy, then having her on Mission 3 would be as dangerous as having her on Mission 2.

If Lataro is town, so is cjdrum, but if cjdrum is a spy, then so is Lataro.

But if cjdrum is turns out Resistance, Lataro doesn't necessarily turn out as Resistance.

[Gopher of Pern]

I admit that I hadn't thought about if Chandani was spy.
Assuming Chandani is spy, and A & B are Resistance, then she could falsely accuse either A or B. We should then take her "result" with caution.
However, if Chandani IS a spy, then having her on Mission 3 would be as dangerous as having her on Mission 2.

If Lataro is town, so is cjdrum, but if cjdrum is a spy, then so is Lataro.

But if cjdrum is turns out Resistance, Lataro doesn't necessarily turn out as Resistance.

But if Lataro turns out spy, cjdrum doesn't necessarily turn out as spy. It goes all ways!

Seriously, there is a difference in information, but not too much. It's hard to gauge which way would be better.

I just think mission 3 would be better for Chandani, using your tactic, as we would have some more information otherwise to counter the wine by their claim. That's all.

[Ibarra]

We need more discussion.
Where is everyone else?

[Mavketl]

Assuming Chandani is spy, and A & B are Resistance, then she could falsely accuse either A or B. We should then take her "result" with caution.
However, if Chandani IS a spy, then having her on Mission 3 would be as dangerous as having her on Mission 2.

If it is so 'dangerous', why do you want her to be in the mission at all? I understand the original suggestion (she can cop one of the others), but there is such a huge potential for wine here. I also don't get why she has to GO on the mission to use her plot power: if the mission fails, we can discuss who was most suspicious and Chandani can 'cop' them from the outside, right? Why is it so much better if she cops one of the people who were on the mission WITH her?

Seriously, there is a difference in information, but not too much.

I think the most important difference is that realistically, we'll get closer to confirming anyone as town than to confirming anyone as a spy. Thus, the "if X is town, then Y is town" is more useful to me than "if Y is scum, then X is scum".