xkcd

by **webby** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:00 am UTC

Lorenz wrote:
Lorenz wrote:And I will accept. I trust my logic and VZ is looking especially scummy for not making any strong accusations against mpolo/misnomer... from his point of view one of the should definitely be a spy.

There's just a comment I have to make about this. I don't believe it makes VZ look scummy. It was just part of a plan I had intended.
I didn't really ever think the team I proposed was going to be accepted, but I wanted to convince scum that I WAS going to accept it. My plan was always to reject it, but if there's scum in that team, maybe I could have convinced scum to accept the team, thinking they would have the votes.

This all quickly blew in my face because I wasn't remembering that there was still a NC out there.

I used to think of trying things like that, but all too often it just ends up with getting into arguments with other townies and looking scummy for proposing or supporting a not-so-good strategy.

by **Misnomer** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:41 am UTC

webby wrote:If we're going to trust him to propose the last team,

Again, IF.

I want this current team rejected because I think cjdrum have power distribution would be a disaster. That does NOT mean I support pushing through to Adam to propose the last team - if cjdrum or Roband proposes an acceptable team, then we should accept it. I am not prepared to risk losing the game on 5 rejections.

On similar grounds, I want his NC used up. If he is town, there's very little useful he can do with it. If he's scum, then he could use it to devastating effect. Again, I believe it's not worth the risk of keeping it in his hands. Plus, there's the fact that him using the NC will help us narrow down possible spy teams a bit further, like roband's did earlier.

And to Misnomer, who was talking about Boomfrog leading the town. I think you'll find he does that (or tries to do that) when he's scum as well as town - I think he was doing that in Wizardry for example? And I'm still convinced that the whole reason he used the power on me on that mission was because it would make me look scummy - as I've said before, it was clearly best scum play and not best town play. So there's no reason you should assign equal probabilities to each of the scum team possibilities from the last mission.

Well I'm the first to admit I don't have a strong meta on him, so maybe I will give wizardry a reread... and as for probabilities, there were 3 possible scenarios in which you were a spy compared to only 1 scenario in which you weren't - and while I accept the scenario's don't have equal chances, I'm not sure your innocence scenario is more likely than all of the other three combined.

by **webby** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:48 pm UTC

Misnomer wrote:
On similar grounds, I want his NC used up. If he is town, there's very little useful he can do with it. If he's scum, then he could use it to devastating effect. Again, I believe it's not worth the risk of keeping it in his hands. Plus, there's the fact that him using the NC will help us narrow down possible spy teams a bit further, like roband's did earlier.

That doesn't make any sense - if it's narrowing down spy teams, it's because we would have lost if a certain combination had been scum. There can be no benefit to that strategy over making the initial assumption that the combination aren't scum, so it can't possibly be a good strategy.

and as for probabilities, there were 3 possible scenarios in which you were a spy compared to only 1 scenario in which you weren't - and while I accept the scenario's don't have equal chances, I'm not sure your innocence scenario is more likely than all of the other three combined.

If you had an initial assumption that it was 50-50 that I was a spy and 50-50 that Boomfrog was, then you should assume the same afterwards, because if Boomfrog is scum, his optimal play is to find the way that makes a townie or townies look most scummy.

by **BoomFrog** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:56 pm UTC

I only read a little bit, and don't have time to fully catch up, but whats wrong with Mpolo, AdamH, Misnomer, proposed by Roband. Then AdamH gets powers and then proposes a good team, and after that Misnomer gets powers and proposes a good team. We have to bet the game on two people, I think the people who voted against the M4 team are the best bets.

by **roband** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:58 pm UTC

I won't be suggesting AdamH for the team.

I think he's scum. No real reason for this. But hey, wotcha gonna do?

by **BoomFrog** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:18 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Second, he proposed himself, misnomer, and I, which should be his top team if he trusts me (which he has claimed several times). However, he then turned around and insisted we NC or reject it? That seems odd to me. If the mission was accepted, it would have cleared him of all suspicion, so I don't get what all his fuss what about. Third, I promise I will reject every team no matter what. BF, on the other hand, gave orders to accept teams without even caring about the context of the proposal. He would trust me to be on a mission, but doesn't necessarily think it's best if I become the leader. That doesn't make sense. He probably just didn't think about it, but it's still a bit scummy.

Note to all resistance: by voting "accept" for a team with player X on it, you are saying that you think X is less scummy than me. It is irrational (or scummy) to accept a team otherwise.

I wanted to reject it because my thinking was that we wanted to reject until roband proposes so Adam gets powers. However I gave orders to accept all teams I found reasonably acceptable because I wasn't sure if everyone agreed with my plan and I didn't want to mess up our chance to accept a good team.

If the five other town can agree on a plan they can manipulate things without me. I don't have time to change my standing orders or read all the discussion right now. (sorry again for that, I shouldn't have stayed in the reset I knew this road trip was coming up.)

New orders for the Mod:

Reject Lorenz and CJdrum's team. Accept any combo of AdamH, Misnomer, Mpolo, and Me for M1 proposed by Roband. Accept any team proposed by AdamH.

by **BoomFrog** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:21 pm UTC

Well there goes my townieness feeling about Roband...

If Roband is a spy then the team proposed by me must have all town on it. Also if GoP, and AdamH are town then three out of Lorenz, VZ, CjDrum and Roband are spies.

by **roband** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:24 pm UTC

I'm not a spy, ffs. What else can I do to convince you of that?

I just don't like AdamH in this game.

by **jayhsu** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:04 pm UTC

A team has been proposed, please vote within 24 hours. Roband votes publicly.

by **roband** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:12 pm UTC

ACCEPT

It's not a lot different from what I would have suggested, with Lorenz proposing it (instead of being on the team, if I'd've proposed it)

by **roband** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

Bleh

ACCEPT

so it's clear

by **mpolo** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:55 pm UTC

I'm reasonably happy with this team, but I'm also worried about NC abuse. We don't want cjdrum to get powers to distribute, so this proposal should either fail in the voting or should be no-confidenced. I'd kind of like to get the NC out of the way so that it doesn't come back to haunt us, but I pretty much trust Adam to use it properly, so I guess I don't have to be so worried about it. To make things sure, I think I'm going to reject the team.

by **VectorZero** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:13 am UTC

I'm going to have to reject this. While I can't exclude the possibility that boom frog and webby are both scum, it still wouldn't preclude the possibility of at least one scum of the other three from the first two missions. It's honestly quite a strange selection.

by **jayhsu** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:10 pm UTC

The current team leader is: Lorenz
The proposed mission is: 1.

Proposed Team Member 1: Misnomer
Proposed Team Member 2: GOP
Proposed Team Member 3: Mpolo

Votes:
1. roband - ACCEPT
2. Adam H - REJECT
3. Misnomer - ACCEPT
4. mpolo - REJECT
5. Gopher of Pern - REJECT
6. VectorZero - REJECT
7. webby - REJECT
8. BoomFrog - REJECT
9. Lorenz - REJECT
10. cjdrum - REJECT (A)

Consecutive rejected teams: 1/5

The proposed team has been REJECTED.

The current team leader is: Cjdrum
The proposed mission is: 1/3

Proposed Team Member 1:
Proposed Team Member 2:
Proposed Team Member 3:
Proposed Team Member 4:
[More as necessary]

Consecutive rejected teams: 2/5

3 days to deadline.

by **roband** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:16 pm UTC

Erm, I accepted, but it doesn't change anything.

So this is where we need CJ to show up and start posting...

by **jayhsu** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:55 pm UTC

Edited.

by **Adam H** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:41 pm UTC

I guess the (A) next to cj's reject means it was an auto reject? This should be interesting...

I had forgotten this, but cjdrum actually replaced more_people at the beginning of the game. So I'm even more inclined to believe he's a spy who gave up rather than someone who cannot or does not want to waste time with this game.

Oh dear...

by **cjdrum** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

Actually, more_people had to replace out because he had no access over the school holidays - and I only really replaced in because no one else was. I'm just tired of him "forgetting" to tell everyone that he's gone, and me having to pick up everything he's dropped.

Anyway. That was an auto-reject because nobody really made it clear why we were rejecting other than "we don't want cj with plot powers". I hate this, because I could give them to exactly who you want - but then I guess the whole confirmation bias thing leaves you still thinking I'm scum.

So, who do people want/not want for this team, and what mission do we want to do (which I guess should be obvious from the amount of people you suggest)?

by **Lorenz** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:36 pm UTC

Yes, but there's absolutely no reason for us to trust you, so you could give them to exactly who YOU want. Also, if you really are town and you just take other persons words, it's quite likely that you are following mafia. Since there's 5 town decisions that may be split that 4 scum decisions that are more likely to want the same thing.

We have absolutely nothing on you, so I would prefer you just choose a team without taking the advice of others. I can resume the actions of people if you want.

M2 (First mission)
GoP proposes : GoP, VZ, BF, Webby
GoP gives powers to : Roband (Take resopnsibility), Lorenz (No confidence), Cjdrum (No confidence)
Roband uses power on : Lorenz
No NC are used.
Mission fails (One fail)

M4 (Second mission)
VZ proposes : VZ, misnomer, webby, BF, mpolo.
VZ gives powers to : Roband (opinion maker), BF (KaCEoY), mpolo (open up)
mpolo uses open up on webby. Webby claims mpolo is resistance.
Cjdrum uses NC
webby proposes : VZ, misnomer, webby, BF, mpolo.
Mission fails (two fails)
BF uses KaCEoY on : webby. Claims webby is spy.

M? (third mission)
Boomfrog gives powers to : GoP (overhear), Adam (overhear), Adam (no confidence)
GoP uses power on mpolo: claims mpolo is resistance.
Adam uses power on misnomer: claims misnomer is resistance.
Boomfrog proposes: BF, Adam, Misnomer
Roband uses NC
Lorenz proposes: Misnomer, VZ, GoP
Mission rejected.

I believe these are all the important actions. I built it from memory mostly so if anyone notices a mistake let us know.

by **BoomFrog** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:47 pm UTC

I agree with Lorenz, give a soft proposal of what team you would like and why.

Also btw Lorenz: I think you mean "recap" or "summarize" not "resume".

by **Lorenz** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:02 pm UTC

Thanks! English is not my first language, so I may have been thinking in spanish and just translating as I typed... The word is spanish is "resumen", but yeah, I meant summarize.

by **Lorenz** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

Ummm... What happens if no team is proposed? I couldn't see anything in the rules.

by **mpolo** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:21 pm UTC

Not an expected outcome, I suppose (since The Resistance is designed to keep everybody participating). I would guess/suggest that it would count as a rejected mission and go to the next player on the list.

Jayhsu: I had expected to be around until August 19, but that is not to be -- I got an extra week of vacation starting on Friday. Which means that I should probably be asking you to find a replacement for me before then.

by **jayhsu** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:22 pm UTC

Will look. For cjdrum too.

by **cjdrum** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:10 pm UTC

I'm thinking the Spies are:
- webby
- Misnomer
- Adam H
- [another]

With those PPs used, I think it makes sense. Are there any objections to the Mission 1 (3 people) team: VectorZero, BoomFrog, mpolo?

by **Misnomer** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:16 pm UTC

cjdrum wrote:I'm thinking the Spies are:
- webby
- Misnomer
- Adam H
- [another]

With those PPs used, I think it makes sense. Are there any objections to the Mission 1 (3 people) team: VectorZero, BoomFrog, mpolo?

Object, obviously.

Also, kindly explain your choice of spy picks.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:08 am UTC

Also obviously object and clearly I'm going to reject any team with Boomfrog in it. Why do you think I'm the spy rather than him?

by **jayhsu** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:52 am UTC

dotproduct replaces cjdrum immediately. I'll give the game one more day for him to catch up, so you have about 33 hours (Tuesday 9AM EST) to propose a team.

by **dotproduct** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:33 am UTC

Just finished my read-through. I'm flipping with respect to cjdrum; I think webby is resistance.
This is because I noticed that it could have been better and could not have
been worse for BoomFrog to have used KaCEoY on VectorZero or Misnomer.

soft proposal: webby/mpolo/roband

If webby is resistance, then that team would pass the mission and a confirmed resistance member would distribute the plot powers next.

On the other hand, regardless of what team I propose, rejecting it would lose twenty dollars and my self respect it Adam is a spy.[1]
Even if Adam is resistance, he would still need to correctly guess another resistance member for the mission to pass.

[1] Adam NC's roband and proposes a team with himself on it.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:56 am UTC

dotproduct wrote:Just finished my read-through. I'm flipping with respect to cjdrum; I think webby is resistance.
This is because I noticed that it could have been better and could not have
been worse for BoomFrog to have used KaCEoY on VectorZero or Misnomer.

soft proposal: webby/mpolo/roband

If webby is resistance, then that team would pass the mission and a confirmed resistance member would distribute the plot powers next.

On the other hand, regardless of what team I propose, rejecting it would lose twenty dollars and my self respect it Adam is a spy.[1]
Even if Adam is resistance, he would still need to correctly guess another resistance member for the mission to pass.

[1] Adam NC's roband and proposes a team with himself on it.

You do realise if we get this wrong, it's game over, right? You are saying that you think they are the 3 most trustworthy people, after yourself. We should not have Webby on the team, because It is certain that one of him and Boomfrog are scum.

As Adam has not answered my questions, I'm losing my trust in him. It does seem to me that they are trying to get the mission leader, so they can propose a failing mission. I think dotproduct should propose a team that we can all accept, and then let Adam NC it, then let Roband propose the same team. This will eliminate the NC, and remove any way that Adam can screw us over, if he is indeed a spy.

by **webby** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:44 pm UTC

It's not as bad as you suggest, because it's the only way that only requires trusting one person.

The problem with telling Adam H to use his NC is that if he's scum, and the proposed team is scum, then he's just going to let it through without using his NC, and we'll lose.

So we basically have two choices:
1. Trust Adam H. Leave Adam H with a NC to use if a team we don't want gets through.
2. Tell Adam H to NC the mission. He's not going to do this if he's scum and the team proposed is scum. So decide now what team roband is going to propose and have dotproduct propose the same team. Proposing two different teams just gives an extra chance for Adam H to screw us over if he's scum, the first team is town and the second team is scum - the eventual outcome is the same in all other cases, whether Adam H is scum or town.

Does that make sense? I can explain it more if necessary.

Obviously I'm going to push for a me, roband, mpolo team, but there are other teams I would accept if necessary. It now feels to me like cjdrum just didn't want to play, rather than actually being scummy, and I'm getting a good feeling from the last couple of posts from cjdrum/dotproduct. Haven't really made up my mind on whether Misnomer + Adam H are scum, or VectorZero is scum, will look into that more once the actual team is proposed.

by **Lorenz** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:09 pm UTC

I object also.

I am willing to trust webby, as I am being swayed slowly to trust him. I would rather not, but eventually were going to have to make a leap of faith.
Roband, on the other hand, has not done anything to deserve our trust imo. On the contrary, his actions have been scummy. Take roband out of the equation and I would be happy.

by **roband** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

As much as you might want that Lorenz, I'm suggesting the next team.

And believe it or not, I'm putting myself in it. Sorry.

by **Adam H** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:55 pm UTC

dotproduct wrote:soft proposal: webby/mpolo/roband

webby wrote:Obviously I'm going to push for a me, roband, mpolo team

ROBAND?!?!? When did this madness begin?!?

webby wrote:So decide now what team roband is going to propose and have dotproduct propose the same team.

Roband and dotproduct have no incentive to go along with this.

Gopher of Pern wrote:As Adam has not answered my questions, I'm losing my trust in him.

WTF questions did you ask that I didn't answer?

Ooooooooooo I had a post written up a while ago that apparently I did not submit. Here it is:

Misnomer wrote:Your promise to reject scares me even more.

Not sure why it would scare you… I have literally no good reason to accept any mission other than mine. I know that if it gets to me, then we have a MUCH higher chance of passing. If it doesn’t get to me, and the mission succeeds, then I’m happy - worst case is that 3 other people reject with me, and we all look suspicious for rejecting. But I’m telling you now: I’m rejecting every mission no matter who’s on the team. So I should look a bit less suspicious if that scenario happens. And I know that the best situation would be that every town rejects until leadership gets to me, so that’s what I’m pushing for.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Which team are you going to propose when it comes around to you then?

I’ll propose myself, misnomer, and either mpolo/BF. I’ll let what happens from now until then influence that decision, but for now I’m leaning heavily towards mpolo.

by **roband** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:58 pm UTC

Adam H wrote: But I’m telling you now: I’m rejecting every mission no matter who’s on the team.

Hahahahaha. Oh dear. Why don't we all play that game, yeah? That'll get us a win in nofuckingtime.

owait

by **roband** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

Adam, you have no right to be taking that stance at all.

You're not confirmed. You're not guaranteed. You're as likely scum as anyone else right now.

I will be putting myself on the team I suggest. That way, I only have to find two other people to trust, rather than three.

by **Lorenz** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:13 pm UTC

Quick note:

Roband, you are making the exact same thing adam is. You are just not being as explicit about it.

by **roband** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:16 pm UTC

Lorenz wrote:Quick note:

Roband, you are making the exact same thing adam is. You are just not being as explicit about it.

I have NOT said that I will reject any team without me in it. That's a bloody stupid idea.
I do plan to put myself in the team I will suggest, of course. But there's a difference

by **Adam H** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:36 pm UTC

roband wrote:
Adam H wrote: But I’m telling you now: I’m rejecting every mission no matter who’s on the team.

Hahahahaha. Oh dear. Why don't we all play that game, yeah? That'll get us a win in nofuckingtime.

owait

Are... are you serious? It works because I'm the fifth leader... With all due respect, and keep in mind I'm saying with ALL due respect, you're an idiot.

roband wrote:Adam, you have no right to be taking that stance at all.

WTF kind of stance do you think I'm taking? You realize that the ONLY way my vote will make a difference is if I'm in the MAJORITY? Which, by your own admission, is the best place to be! :roll:

roband wrote:I have NOT said that I will reject any team without me in it.

Me neither. I said I'll reject EVERY MISSION NO MATTER WHAT. Deal with it, biatch.

by **Misnomer** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:46 pm UTC

...

Well, I think that's made my mind up. Sorry if your are town Adam, but you've not been acting like it...

I'm going to accept dp's team.

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