xkcd

by **roband** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:30 pm UTC

Also, apparently responding to be accused of being WW results in wine. No matter which way I go about it.

Explaining that to everybody leads to MORE WINE!?

I can't get out of this fucking winery, apparently? Lovely.

by **mpolo** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:42 pm UTC

So, once we know slbub's alignment, it may or may not say anything about Lataro, because there could be an act involved there. Lataro has seemed generally townie in this game, and since I tend to get a scummy read on him, either I've mellowed out during the summer or he has. There are a couple of comments that are not 100% kosher, but still, mostly a townie vibe.

I'm pretty happy with a-wan's behavior, so that I don't think that lynching him for his power is a good idea.

I'm going to have to do some more re-reading to see if anything else jumps out at me, but not until tomorrow.

by **a-wan** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:59 pm UTC

Ibarra wrote:@a-wan
Regarding your mafia scenario, there's such a thing called "taking someone down with me."
We know that you probably are the target for the WW next to the Paranormal Investigator as killing you would most likely guarantee two deaths.
Even if you weren't going to get lynched, you still could take someone else with you as mafia.
The fact that you didn't mentioned this is bothering me.

I didn't think of that. You can take it either way, but I haven't wasted too much time optimizing my thinking from a mafia point of view.

Let's just go down that path for a little then:

1. If I target someone tonight, then all my target has to do is speak up knowing that they'll be taking out scum by sacrificing themself, since I said I don't plan on targeting anyone. 1 town for 1 scum favors town. Even if I don't get lynched, the werewolf takes me out that night with the same effect.

2. If I don't target someone tonight but someone claims I did, then I get lynched or WW kills me. Next day, when everyone sees that no one else died, then the person who claims I targeted them ends up getting lynched. Again, 1 town for 1 scum, which favors town.

Ibarra wrote:Also while I appreciate it you find me townie, how exactly did you when I only posted thrice? One of which was a post to say that I may not be able to read/post in the game properly.

Your first post was to defend against killing me just because of my role, as was your second post. Mafia would have been better served to tacitly go along, or let momentum build in favor of lynching the flirt without a single vote. I suppose I could have left you at neutral because you haven't posted much content not related to my power. Challenging me on this, though, puts you further on the towny side.

by **a-wan** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:00 pm UTC

EBWOP:

"without a single vote" was supposed to be "without a single post".

by **Lataro** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

first and foremost, I will not comment on the discussion thread situation or slbub. As soon as something was seen, I PM'ed the mod, informed them, and they said it didn't matter. Since I'm not a cheating bastard, I opted to accept the mod's decision and continue playing ignoring the post as if it never happened. slbub choose not to. Nothing need be said more on this. I will answer no questions, or provide any further comments on this, so let it drop, alright?

As for actual game stuff that matters now...

slbub's modkill and a-wan's general townie nature means it's time to go back to the drawing board. Lets take a look at the player list and see what all is going on...

Linda the Insomniac -Mieulium - I never can get any real read on Mieu, she plays very "safe" in any game I've been in or seen with her, I've no clue as to her alignment. Mostly small posts, primarily discussion the flirt power. Lists suspicion of BF, then slbub and lorenz later.

Carter the Medic - mpolo - Same as above for mpolo, he plays it safe generally as well. He doesn't really list any strong suspicion for anyone other than slbub it seems.

Jeremy the Recluse - Thirdkoopa - Not all that active at all, with only two real posts. After I called him out on being generally inactive, he made a single post, asking a bunch of people questions, and providing very little content himself. His biggest content has been more discussion of powers, and not discussion of players. With only two content posts thus far, with the last on wednesday, I'm more annoyed right now than anything, however, the lack of commenting on players, or doing anything beyond random questions, and not following up on it before deadline (which if not already, soon would have passed if it hadn't been moved) strikes me as lazy or scum trying to float under the radar. At this point if a better option didn't present itself, assuming no modly action if they fail to post again before end of day, I'd be willing to throw a vote there just to get someone whose playing lazily out of the picture for later.

Narisssa the Flirt - a-wan - Solid content, good points, and townie vibes best describe my thoughts towards a-wan since they replaced an inactive player. Provided they are going to play smart with their power, I see no reason to lynch them here.

Otto the Party Animal -roband - First, everyone needs to back off on the recent WW thing. There isn't a damned thing he, or any other player in any other game, could say that wouldn't be wine when the argument is basically asking a person if they are scum. There is absolutely no response, or lack of response to this, that matters worth a damn if someone wants to twist it. That said, anyone who refuses to acknowledge this simple fact is acting very scummy IMO. Overall, roband is being roband. I look at roband as a puppy of sorts. He likes the chase cars, until he realizes he can't catch one, and then goes after another. With the number of people trying to turn the WW comment situation around on him, it's seeming kinda like a frame job, and is making me think back to the BF and roband exchange, and thinking more about BF...

Gordon the Busdriver - BoomFrog - I've had a lot of conflicting opinions of BF this game, his latest vote against roband, and the logic he's using though seems like a very lazy vote, and it seems like he has very narrowly focused in in recent posts on roband. This reminds me of a really bad scum habit I have sometimes of trying to laser in on the weakest link for an easy lynch, and it's making me lean quite scummy on him. A top contender for my vote today.

Lois the Stalker - weiyaoli - lots of short comments, also on the roband attack squad. Appears active despite saying very little. I would like more from him overall bulk wise in posts. I don't think it would be overly likely for BF and weiyaoli to both be scum, since I don't think weiyaoli would make the mistake of making weak arguments against someone that a scum mate is already working over. That said, I find it odd that he'd choose that to focus on in his last few posts, and it warrants keeping an eye on.

Velma the Paranormal Investigator - GopherofPern (Fun Fact: firefox wants to auto correct your name as typed there to something rather amusing) - Started off strong with good content, but seems to have dropped off as the game went by. Promises a reread, then focus on me that doesn't really go anywhere in the end. I'll leave anything further on that post of his to someone else to look at, I see nothing in it to respond to personally though. Will reserve judgement til his promised post tomorrow with the rest of the players looked at.

Ethel the Poisoner - Lataro - I don't know about you, but he's a bad enough dude to save the president.

Harry the Private Detective - Ibarra - Few posts, but good points in them. His latest raises a good issue with both a-wan and BF, that I'd be interested in seeing a reply to. No real opinion yet, though leaning townie.

Tony the Thief - Lorenz - Clashed with him a bit earlier, however, he defended himself well. He has spent a lot of time on the defensive this game thus far, and overall, he hasn't seemed too scummy in his posts. I'd like to hear his thoughts on people, since most of his posts of late have been self defense posts than anything else before making a judgement call.

Boil all that down, and I'd say if I had to pick someone to lynch right now, I'd be leaning towards BF for the recent exchange with roband. weiyaoli is a close second, if BF is town, I'd say weiyaoli is rather likely to be scum, if BF is scum however, I'd say he's less likely, though, WW is very possible here IMO, for either of them. I hadn't previously considered that, but a WW and a mafia here is a very possible situation.

I'd like to hear more on anything from thirdkoopa, and from others on specific things brought up in their sections. We got an extension people, lets not waste the time.

by **BoomFrog** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:50 pm UTC

roband wrote:You're entitled to vote for me because you think I'm WW, but don't say it's because of how I didn't say "don't bother investigating me".
Christ.

Fair enough. I was just kinda annoyed that you'd said it repeatedly. It really was a minor point, I was just returning my vote after slbub got "taken care of".

Ibarra wrote:We know that you probably are the target for the WW next to the Paranormal Investigator as killing you would most likely guarantee two deaths.

But he's not a target if he publicly claimed he with withhold his charms and no one refutes him. Then the WW has no reason to target him, which, as town or Mafia is good for him.

BoomFrog wrote:Speaking of that plan, A-wan is planning to withhold his power and Lorenz has agreed to steal his charm so we don't need Roband to also pile on with a party. I think Roband is likely scum but if he is town he could block a kill with his partying if he is lucky (actually even as scum he might block the other kill). So I think he should choose to use his RB on someone who he feels is scummy, not on A-wan. (and who he chooses to RB could be enlightening as to his scummyness as well)

Why exactly are you advising roband not to target a-wan? There's the chance that if a-wan is scum, he'll execute the kill instead. I don't think it's a wise idea to suggest not too target someone.

Sure, if Roband decides that A-wan is scummy still targeting him is a reasonable choice. I was just saying he should make a choice rather then automatically RB A-wan and say its because town told him to.

Lataro wrote:I've had a lot of conflicting opinions of BF this game, his latest vote against roband, and the logic he's using though seems like a very lazy vote, and it seems like he has very narrowly focused in in recent posts on roband. This reminds me of a really bad scum habit I have sometimes of trying to laser in on the weakest link for an easy lynch, and it's making me lean quite scummy on him. A top contender for my vote today.

It was a lazy vote. slbub died so I put my vote back where it was before slbub went crazy. I didn't bother reviewing my reasons I just assumed my past self made a correct analysis. Besides my very last post I don't think I've been "lasering", if fact looking back I've spent a large majority of my time talking about the flirt's power. My vote for Roband was because he was too eager to vote for Lorenz who I felt was acting like "typical Lorenz", I still think that's a valid reason for a vote.

I REALLY like A-wan's analysis, looks pretty town. I was liking Lataro's analysis until the part about me, I'm conflicted about him. I think I'm going to have to look at him as an experience but "new" player as he seems to have changed his style. Mpolo continues to worry me as he has been active lurky and that's about as scummy as Mpolo gets. I'd like more content from mieulium and weiyaoli of course.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:26 am UTC

Yeah, sorry for cutting my post short yesterday.

Lataro: basically hasn't changed since what I said yesterday.

Miulium: Agrees readily with Lataro, and only posts about the VF, now a-wan, situation, including misinterpreting the situation. Has pings from Boomfrog, slbub and Lorenz, and then drops off abit, just coming on to put a vote on slbub, and explain their IGMEOY on Lorenz. I don't like the way they are following Lataro, but there seems to be a little effort in scum hunting there.

Lorenz: claims they can simply rob VF's power. He then engages in some extreme arguement in which we would lynch Lataro next because of his dangerous power. Then, a vote on Boomfrog because his power is confusing, and a few minor scum tells. Unvotes upon realising his arguement is flawed. A vote on slbub. Attackes Roband. Defends accusation from Lataro, and then thirdkoopa. Overall, fairly neutral. The early vote seems more overeagerness than anything, and since then their defence against others accusations has been alright. A little bit of scum hunting which seems concentrated on Roband, but that was curtailed by the aforementioned defence.

Sorry, but I do have to go now, will post more later.

by **Lorenz** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:59 am UTC

Posting from blackberry, i won't have a computer till sunday, so a good post will have to wait till then. The scummiest in my mind is Roband, but it may be because he has received a lot of accusations. Once I do some player by player analyzis ill figure it out.

I also like a-wan's defence. It doesn't make him more townie, but less dangerous most likely.

by **mieulium** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:07 am UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Miulium: Agrees readily with Lataro, and only posts about the VF, now a-wan, situation, including misinterpreting the situation. Has pings from Boomfrog, slbub and Lorenz, and then drops off abit, just coming on to put a vote on slbub, and explain their IGMEOY on Lorenz. I don't like the way they are following Lataro, but there seems to be a little effort in scum hunting there.

I am not actually agreeing readily with Lataro. For all I know, Lataro might be scum. I just have the same thoughts on VF as to Lataro.

For why my posts are small and few is because I am really bad at scum analysis, especially with absolute zero powers, probably because I am gullible in real life! What I do is that I just go about it in situations, what I would do etc. . I pointed out Lorenz because he doesn't seem to stay steadfast to one inclination.

There is no definitive way of proving I am town, and there is no information that I can share. It is up to you guys to decide.

by **Ibarra** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:46 pm UTC

roband wrote:Also, apparently responding to be accused of being WW results in wine. No matter which way I go about it.

Explaining that to everybody leads to MORE WINE!?

I can't get out of this fucking winery, apparently? Lovely.

Maybe instead of posting like how you did, you could have handled it more calmly.

[quote=BoomFrog"]But he's not a target if he publicly claimed he with withhold his charms and no one refutes him. Then the WW has no reason to target him, which, as town or Mafia is good for him.[/quote]
That's assuming he does follow through with what he said which is something you cannot assume. Either way, he still is a possible target for WW.

BoomFrog wrote:Sure, if Roband decides that A-wan is scummy still targeting him is a reasonable choice. I was just saying he should make a choice rather then automatically RB A-wan and say its because town told him to.

That's not how you worded it. It appeared more as "roband shouldn't target a-wan because he isn't scummy and because Lorenz already plans to target him."

mieulium wrote:For why my posts are small and few is because I am really bad at scum analysis, especially with absolute zero powers, probably because I am gullible in real life! What I do is that I just go about it in situations, what I would do etc. . I pointed out Lorenz because he doesn't seem to stay steadfast to one inclination.

There is no definitive way of proving I am town, and there is no information that I can share. It is up to you guys to decide.

Why does this look like a cop out regarding your scumhunting skills. Even if you're really bad at it, at the very least try to scumhunt.

At the moment I find BoomFrog most suspicious because of his not wanting a-wan to be roleblocked.

by **mpolo** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:31 pm UTC

Sorry for the big delays between posts. Unfortunately, this post is to say that I'll be back tomorrow.

Quick "off the top of my head" comments:

a-wan seems pretty solidly town
Lataro seems townier than usual to me (I tend to read him in a negative light), also the role isn't dangerous until night 2
In the BoomFrog - roband war, I'm not sure what to think. I felt like BoomFrog was coming off somewhat better, but I don't feel all that bad about roband -- I made a joke about him being the WW, which kind of ballooned, but I don't get any particular vibe off of him.

More tomorrow.

by **weiyaoli** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

I'll try to post something this weekend I guess, as this is when I have the most spare time. I'll work on going through everyone but posting two at a time:

Thoughts on players:
mieu:
Their earlier posts all seem to be about wrong rolespec that makes up a bulk of her discussion. Their later posts:

Well, as I said in an earlier post, you were the most fickle person at the start. Which I rethink is weird, because when you have fickle voting, you either are new at this game or you are not being careful with the vote. You're not the former, so it has to be the latter. And I think being not careful with the vote is a pretty scummy move. But I just put it as IGMEOY as there is a large possibility that I am wrong...

Why is not being careful with the vote scummy? I don't see why scum would not be careful in their voting. On the other hand, being fickle with your voting is indicative of trying to start bandwagons/bandwagoning.

If not scumhunting, you could be saying your thoughts about other people at least as a starting point.

Overall, her passiveness bothers me but I don't think it's too scummy yet since this seems to be how she normally plays. Could do with a lot more content. Slightly scummy

Lorenz:
I don't understand his argument about voting VK for his role is a slippery slope (lataro is also dangerous is his example) but then it's okay to vote for BF for that reason and the fact that he said that roband's last post was scummy because the logic was bad. His last reason about BF changing his mind due to further information is apparently seem scummy which I have no idea where that comes from. Why was it not okay to change your mind about someone after additional information?

The fact that he backtracks because lataro calls him out on the above is scummy to me. Especially since he practically admits it was based on BF's role:

Even though it'll probably lead to me being accused of being too careful with my vote. In the end though, my vote will likely go to someone who pings me (even if just a tiny bit, it is day 1 after all) rather than vote based on someone's role.

Did you not say earlier that you voted based on pings from BF's posts too? You haven't said anything about anything he has done that has decreased your perceived scumminess but only something about how his role is really useful for town if he is town which seems slightly hypocritical since you seem to have unvoted because of his role.

I find myself agreeing with him more later though, and his last few posts have been okay. I'd say right now he's probable scum.

by **Thirdkoopa** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:01 pm UTC

I'm about to be heading out the door in an hour but here we go;

@Latoro: My questions help capture my reads on other players. For starters, you haven't seemed to reply to what I said. I might have missed it in all these walls.

Lorenz wrote:So, now it's my turn to question you Thirdkoopa. Who do you think is the scummiest person right now, and who do you want lynched? Please provide detail.

First off, wayyy too much active lurking in this game, but if I was to state so: Mieulum, the whole Latoro case and BF/Roband.

Mieulum... Hasn't quite got any moving vibes either. In any direction. And I for sure don't feel anything town from this. So really, he could flip either Mafia (Lack of link-ups, etc) or SK easily.

I don't know the meta's of BF/Roband but all the frustration reminds me of something I've done similar. It's more of a cut read that there's scum within those two; at first I thought Roband could be scum, then BF, then Roband, then I remembered there's a Serial Killer in this... which makes it pretty possible for both to be scum.

Latoro... I really don't know what happened, and I didn't read spoilers, so if I could be cleared up from what I read: Slbub votes Latoro because of something he read.

If I was to pick someone to kingmake, to be frank, I don't even know what happened in the whole Sbulb/Latoro fiasco but I'd like answers and to remove wine later. This is however just a quick pick and Latoro is still giving off some good vibes.

Lorenz is providing fine content. SK suspects in particular are hard since the SK is trying to find Scum as much as we are. I need a great read on that one. I'd need to look welwl in reads list since a majority of us have posted them at some point.

roband wrote:Just realised I never actually told thirdkoopa who I would lynch, right now.

I think that's pretty obvious. slbub is causing problems. Problems the game doesn't need.

And now with the Modkill?

I've gotten out my major thoughts for now. I'm ignoring roles and WILL try to post here over the last few days before the deadline. I really hate it that time's cramping on me, especially since I so far like this group too.

by **Lataro** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:09 pm UTC

Assuming you are referring to...

Thirdkoopa wrote:
Lataro wrote:just to clarify some, and remind others, you all know my POV on vig powers. I will make any choices regarding my power on my own, as I believe to be the singular correct path for one, as I have stated many times, in many games, as many alignments.

Please do elaborate further. I'm new to the Meta here thus I'm willing to hear.

The answer is clearly started in the post quoted. Lorenz asked the same, I bolded the answer, and quoted it back at him. When you asked, he quoted the post I made replying to when he asked it.

Lorenz wrote:
Thirdkoopa wrote:He*. Seeing my only post back there should have at least some answer to a question I've been wanting answered, no? The post I made in there did indeed have a question. I don't know the Meta here so I'm quite curious as to your opinion's on not outing NA's.

I believe he didn't answer, as I had already asked the same question before, and he answered by pointing out the answer was in that same post he commented about previous games.

Lorenz wrote:@Thirdkoopa: (In case my first comment was unclear)
Lataro wrote:
Lorenz wrote:
Lataro wrote:just to clarify some, and remind others, you all know my POV on vig powers. I will make any choices regarding my power on my own, as I believe to be the singular correct path for one, as I have stated many times, in many games, as many alignments.

I don't, and I really don't want to go back and find your previously played games to find out. Care to explain? From roband's post I guess that you like to use them without taking suggestions and commenting about it.

Lataro wrote:just to clarify some, and remind others, you all know my POV on vig powers. I will make any choices regarding my power on my own, as I believe to be the singular correct path for one, as I have stated many times, in many games, as many alignments.

This is now the third time this has been answered. If you can't be bothered to read all the posts in the thread, then there isn't much that can be done for ya.

You also completely ignore the point that your latest post here, if the deadline hadn't been moved back, would have been after deadline, and thus, not made. You basically active lurked though D1 asking questions rather than providing content or going beyond surface details.

Your comment about way too much active lurking is absurd coming from you. When answering Lorenz question directed at you, you basically talked about stuff already mentioned by others in recent posts, or took a very non-committal stance.

You call that post "major thoughts"?

You'll have to do a lot better than that at this stage in the game with how you have been playing thus far.

re:weiyaoli

I really am not finding Lorenz all that scummy at this time. In fact, he is pry the one person I'm actually trusting the most, since in all the attention he has gotten, he hasn't cracked any or made any real scum tells. The worst that can be said about him is he made some early poor moves, spent the next few days defending himself for it, and coming out looking alright, IMO.

mieulium's post is basically throwing her hands up in the air and saying, "I'm useless, you guys decide things, I don't want to take any responsibility or take charge, I'll be a good lil bandwagoner!"

BF - It's hard to say here, I'd really like to hear his thoughts on weiyaoli before moving forward here, since I think it's fairly possible for both or one of them to be scum/sk. Same for weiyaoli, I'd like you to take a close look at BF.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:12 pm UTC

I'm on baby duty today and tomorrow so this is likely to be my last substantial post before deadline.

Ibarra wrote:At the moment I find BoomFrog most suspicious because of his not wanting a-wan to be roleblocked.

That's really not technically the position I was taking but you know what, I agree with the words you're putting in my mouth so I won't argue too much about it. A-wan is the most townie person so far, he shouldn't be roleblocked, and I would be very skeptical of anyone who disagrees. Which leaves me deeply suspicious of you since your making a big deal about this.

Lataro wrote:BF - It's hard to say here, I'd really like to hear his thoughts on weiyaoli before moving forward here, since I think it's fairly possible for both or one of them to be scum/sk. Same for weiyaoli, I'd like you to take a close look at BF.

I'm having a hard time not seeing this as scum trying to focus town's attention on two townies. If so I assume it's because you didn't like the direction things were headed today, so if it turns out that Roband or mieulium are scum I'm going to be very suspicious of you Lataro. The alternative is that your town trying to decide between me and Wei, however I have to wonder how you picked wei. He hasn't post much but has made a passing effort and has stated he is busy with real life. For the record I find him neutral and there are far better targets for today's lynch. For example, you think Lorenz is possibly the most townie person but you don't feel suspicious of Roband who voted for him? And you say mieulium is unreadable and playing it safe but all of her posts have been bandwagon chasing, that's at least a little scummy. Your analysis seems biased.

To summarize my current thoughts: The two people I find most townie are Lorenz and A-wan. GoP, Mpolo, Thirdkoopa, weiyaoli have been lurky, with GoP moving towards townie but still suspicious. Roband is suspicious for voting Lorenz when Lorenz was just acting like normal Lorenz. Lataro is suspicious for his biased seeming "scumhunting", and mieulium is suspicious for her bandwagon chasing and refusal to try and scumhunt. Ibarra is suspicious for his criticism of me when I am supporting the player most people feel is most townie.

I think my vote on Roband is solid but I could probably be convinced to change it to Lataro, mieulium or Ibarra.

by **Lataro** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:11 pm UTC

Right, that answers that.

Vote: BF

For basically saying, "People who disagree with and/or are suspicious of me are scummy"

I'm pretty convinced at least one of weiyaoli and BF are scum of some kind, with both being scum of some kind possible. BF's post saying, "weiyaoli is neutral" with absolutely nothing to back it up. BF, you must have selective reading, or are choosing the ignore the fact that I find you both scummy for reasons clearly stated in prior posts, and it's the same reason for both of you. Absolute trash reasoning for going after roband. How can you wonder why I suspect him, when it's so clearly stated as a theme in my last several posts? This BS post you've made makes me think it is possible you are both mafia, and weiyaoli did just make a bad play following you down the wrong sewer. The rest of your post is more nonsense that makes statements with no reasoning to back it up. Please provide specific examples of this "biased seeming scumhunting". Your only reference that way is along the lines of, "How dare you not have strong reads on a couple people!" which is pretty craptastic. I'll turn that around on you, how dare you not have a strong read on weiyaoli! For shame, that means you're scummy in BF logic world!

How dare people question you as well, you tried to attach yourself to the most townie seeming player, Ibarra and anyone else, pry including me of course, who dares to suspect you clearly must be scum!

All sarcasm aside, your post has just pushed you into the most scummy seat, congratulations!

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:49 pm UTC

Instead of simply saying my reasoning for going after Roband is trash, why don't you actually address it. Please answer the question I put before you already.

You think Lorenz is possibly the most townie person but you don't feel suspicious of Roband who voted for him?

Roband voted for Lorenz and has never said he changed his mind about his reasons. And yet after slbub got shot Roband didn't put his vote back on. He basically made a poorly substantiated vote, got no traction and then stealth unvoted. How do you not find that scummy? Your ONLY real criticism of me is that I am sticking to my vote on Roband. How am I not justified?

Unvote
OMGUS Vote Lataro

by **Lataro** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:01 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:"People who disagree with and/or are suspicious of me are scummy"

Fixed that for you.

Your inane "reasoning" was address a few posts back regarding roband, I see absolutely no reason to rehash it for your inability to read and/or understand it.

It's not a lack of suspicion for roband that drives my vote for you, it's a bounty of suspicion for you. If roband is scum, as I stated long ago, it is very unlikely the both of you are, at least on the same faction. Your then progression of worse and worse reasoning made you look more and more suspicious. When called out on it and asked to provide some comments on someone other than roband, you basically wrote a couple of sentences to cover everyone in the game with absolutely no apparent thought put into it. That's all I have to say to you at this time. Respond with some actual points, and address comments made about you several posts back, and put effort into some form of actual analysis, then maybe you'll sound less like the above quote.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:05 pm UTC

Seriously how the fuck did you get that Wei was making any arguments against Roband? The only thing he said at all was

@roband, surely saying that you are happy to be investigated just adds wine? (and is also a waste of time beyond it possibly saving you from the lynch) People can equally say that as the werewolf, you are planning to kill GoP tonight and therefore don't really care either way.

That's hardly an attack in any way. Wei has basically said nothing all game except some rules clairifications. Huge active lurking I agree, but nothing extra scummy.

by **Misnomer** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:49 pm UTC

Votals:

Lorenz (1): roband
Lataro (1): BoomFrog
BoomFrog (1): Lataro

Not Voting (8): Mieulium, mpolo, Thirdkoopa, a-wan, weiyaoli, Gopher of Pern, Ibarra, Lorenz

11 players, 6 to lynch. Deadline in roughly 27 hours

by **weiyaoli** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:37 pm UTC

Mpolo:
His first post basically repeated everything that Lataro had said before except in a more verbose manner. He makes a few new points but they are slightly winey: (If lorenz is alive by D3 then he is scum, or only stolen town powers, don't like voting based on role).

His role spec has quite a lot in common with what roband posted as well although I guess there is only so many ways you can present/interpret the same role. Generally I feel that he's been playing pretty safe in that he posted lots of rolespec in the beginning and has presented very little opinions on people he thinks are scummy although that is probably down to his limited time he has.

Neutral, maybe slightly townie if anything.

BoomFrog:
His earlier posts looks pretty good. I'm not really sure why he was suspicious of roband with nothing concrete before that post accusing lorenz. I side with him over his following back and forth with roband. I don't really understand his accusation over the cop me statement, though I guess it could be the straw that broke the camel's back following his back and forth earlier, all of his other reasons for roband being scummy still are true.

I do think that I should rank a little scummier but honestly it's a minor point that he seems to be giving me the benefit of the doubt regarding my inactivity. (although obviously I'm biased etc...)

I don't really think he is that scummy. Part of his reasoning for voting roband (the cop me bit) is weak but honestly this sudden attack on him by lataro because of that one bit seems to me to be trying to distract from roband. I'm not really seeing the narrow focus on roband in the recent posts that lataro alluded to:

Spoiler:

Two posts about slbub and two about roband, not really seeing the narrow focus on roband there.

by **weiyaoli** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:37 pm UTC

EBWOP: Oops that was supposed to be two different posts by BF there in the first quote, not one.

by **roband** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

End of the weekend and I'm back. Sorry for the anger before.

Firstly,

unvote

while I look back over the whole thread and make my mind up.
After the whole slbub thing, I forgot my vote was still on Lorenz, to be honest.

More later/tomorrow

by **Lorenz** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:28 pm UTC

People should REALLY start voting now. Yes, we had some slbub problems but deadline is approaching. If many persons don't vote then mafia can also easily hide behind not voting.

So, to see where my vote will go to, It's time for me to do a player by player analysis.

Linda the Insomniac - Mieulium:
1 - Quickly agrees with Lataro (VF is dangerous). They made no real contribution, and could have helped start a role-bandwagon. Slightly scummy.
2 - Some VF lynching possiblities. Unimportant imo
3 - Mafia can kill VF if they're scum, and redirect their power with bus-driver. I'm not paying too much attention to this kind of role misunderstanding. Provides no new content
4 - Explains previous post, attacks BF for a hurried post, and trying to place attention on others. Slbub pings them and considers me fickle. Accusing BF of a hurried post seems quite harsh, as that post does provide content. Especially with Mieulium's post being much more "hurried". Saying BF is scummy for placing attention on others (rather than VF I presume?) is even worse, as scum could have really benefited from all attention going to one person. They don't explain why they consider me "fickle" but I presume it's from my voting. Very scummy
5 - Realizes misunderstanding of VF's role
6 - Votes slbub, IGMEOYs me. No explanation as to why. Seems to be wanting someone to make a case against me, and is just following everyone on slbub's vote. It doesn't really provide new discussion. Scummy
7 - Explains IGMEOY on me, as me being fickle. Really? At such stage of the game, the scummiest thing you can find is a "fickle vote"? Doesn't even bother to address anything I have said.
8 - Explains small posts, and uses "being bad at scum analysis" as defense. I don't know if this may be true, btu I especially don't like the part of "It's up to you guys to decide". It's not, It's up to YOU to find scummy people, and point everyone as to why.
--------Overall
Scummy leaning to active lurker. I don't like their accusations and posts with basically no content. I wouldn't mind a mieulium lynch right about now.

Carter the Medic - Mpolo:
1 - Agrees with Lataro of VF being dangerous. Explains that stealing the power is not such an viable solution. However, if I'm killed based on stealing some powers, it will give us information as to who we should lynch (because of the same argument that scum would kill me if it's worth it for them to ). Is weary about voting VF just on powers. As a first post, good to begin some discussion. Nothing I really find wrong with it. Netural
2 - Points out people can give a lot away by their use of powers No kidding?, and will use the doctoring to own discretion.
3 - Does some role analysis, and how they are useful. Decides we have discussed VF to much, and wouldn't like to vote them. Slightly townie, but would have liked to see a choice as to who they'd like to lynch.
4 - Would rather not bandwagon a lurker.
5 - Explains protection is useless against WW/posion.
6 - Shows bad logic by slbub. Slbub was in the spotlight already. If slbub turn town this will be slightly townie of course, however, I would have felt better if the approach was more aggresive, rather than staying careful. Of course, I don't blame him as slbubs wording was indeed confusing.
7 - WW/freudian-slip joke-post.
8 - Willing to let VF pass if porimses not to use power. Considers slbub most scummy. Discusses plan for BF to protect GoP. He had already said he didn't want to vote VF just on powers, so it's consistent. About BF protecting GoP... I think it's obvious that discussing specific strategies like that will only harm us, I get uneasy feelings from this post, but can't pin-point it.
9 - Answers TK's question.
10 - As kingmaker, would take slbub. Very understandable, roband should agree not to use their power Which is in the best interest of town.
11 - Likes a-wan's behavior, and thinks Lataro has seemed townie. Not too much detail, but good to know their thoughts on some players
12 - Doesn't know what to think of roband/BF Another careful post. Not actively scum-hunting
-----Overall
Neutral with a tint of lurk.

....This is taking longer than I thought. I'll come back in a little while and add an analysis on all players, although it may likely not be a post by post.
However, I don't think I like either a Lataro or a BF lynch. From the top of my head, I would say the 3 scummiest persons are
Thirdkoopa / Mieulium / Roband

in no particular order. I'll confirm this later tonight though.

Vote: Mieulium

for reasons stated above, and to get this ball rolling. Expect my following posts to either change my vote (quite likely) or to leave it there. No unvoting for me today.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:13 pm UTC

I agree with Lorenz that Mieulium is the scummiest player so far. Very active lurky, and a woeful misinterpretation of the game, which led us for far to long on a bad tangent.

Vote: Mieulium

I will continue my player analysis tonight when I get home from work. Had a busy weekend.

by **BoomFrog** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:30 pm UTC

I agree with Lorenz, everyone REALLY needs to put a vote out before deadline. I'm surprised to see everyone avoiding the Lataro/BF debate. Especially weiyaoli, put a vote down, you're playing way too safe.

As an aside, I'd like to make the following promise to the warewolf and I think the rest of town should make the same. If town ends up as kingmaker late in the game I will side with the WW IF the WW has killed a mafioso N1 or N2. Otherwise I will side with the Mafia.

by **Ibarra** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:44 am UTC

FoS: GoP
You just basically parroted Lorenz with your reasons for voting mieulium.

Vote: BF
You basically worded your statement and made it look like you didn't want a-wan to be RB'd.
Then you went off using a Relativist Fallacy to say I''m suspicious because I didn't think a-wan wasn't suspicious.

by **mpolo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:19 am UTC

I'm going to apologize one more time for not posting yesterday. I have some "beginning of the school year meetings" and a first class, but in about 2 1/2 - 3 hours I should actually be able to devote some time to this and say something worthwhile. Doctors are kind of supposed to lay low, but not as low as I've been, and it's obviously unnecessary when everybody knows that I am a doctor. It might be worth seeing if there is any way to protect me (bus driver?) tonight, actually.

Anyway, I haven't even read the last few posts, so I am incompetent to say anything right now. Add to that the fact that I have a meeting in 5 minutes, and, well…

by **roband** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:35 am UTC

mieulium wrote:I agree with Lataro, vikingfan is really dangerous to keep... but just to confirm:

So as long vikingfan has targeted a person, will he bring his victim to death if he is lynched?

IMO, logical thoughts on a dangerous role at the start of the game.

mieulium wrote:After further thinking:
VF is town -> he cant act till he knows who is mafia/werewolf. Mafia can use his kill to get rid of two at once + werewolf + lynch . Death rate: 4 max?
VF is scum -> nothing much will happen. till probably LYLO? if he gets his own people to kill him, and if the bus driver is scum and still alive, plus werewolf still alive, death rate, + lynch : 4 max?
VF lynched today -> VF dies, werewolf and mafia kills. death rate: 3 max.

If there is any mistake, please do correct me. I am not very sure the probability of these happening.

Good speculation, interested in the number of active kills.

mieulium wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
if he gets his own people to kill him,
If VF is Mafia there is no benefit to the Mafia to kill their own to gain one kill, why not just use their kill directly? And there is little profit to purposely attracting the werewolf to kill Scum-VF because they would rather the SK kill a random townie, instead of a mafioso+townie.

and if the bus driver is scum and still alive
How does this affect things, I'm confused by your train of thought.

Well, I was thinking an exaggerated worse case scenario... so if the bus driver is scum, he can redirect kills right, and if vf is scum, he can get mafia to kill him, and the bus driver's power will direct to kill to another townie? or is that highly improbable?

and... why are we addressing vikingfan as them?

weird strat for scum involving bus driving their own player and killing him, to maximise kills? Not good to discuss scum tactics, but this isn't a good one, so it doesn't really matter.

mieulium wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
mieulium wrote:if vf is scum, he can get mafia to kill him
This train of thought is totally illogical. If VF is Mafia then the Mafia doesn't gain anything by killing VF. If VF is the Werewolf then he doesn't gain anything by getting himself killed either.

You haven't reading my post properly, I meant that if the bus driver is scum, he could transfer the vk self kill to a townie. Unless mafia kill takes precedence over role powers, I think it is a possible solution.

I'm really inefficient at rolespec, so I tend to let you guys do it and choose what seems most probable. Disregarding my speculation, and ignoring vks role, I say bf right now pings me, not because of his powers, but of how he answered his latest post, which seems a little hurried and seem intent to place our attn to others. But that can be changed easily. Slbub pings me too, but I haven't played with him before, so not sure if panicking because his friend is not here, or losing scum buddy. Lorenz is probably the most fickle person here...., the rest are acting pretty much townie, so....

excuse for poor rolespec - not much is needed in this game - she seems to more be looking to predict what strategies people will be using. Pinged by BF and slbub.

mieulium wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote: You seem to be hung up on some wrong information.

And it seems like I am. Thanks for actually explaining some sense. I didn't get that part where VK actually has to die in eventuality in order for the power to go through.

got confused like most of us have done in this game so far. GoP helps.

by **roband** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:36 am UTC

Eurgh, that was me taking a look at mieu because I don't like the votes which are starting on her.

I was going to spoiler them all when I was done, but accidentally submitted. More to come.

by **roband** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:45 am UTC

So, here's what I was GOING to say

I don't like the votes on mieu, so I've taken a look at her posts.

Spoiler:

mieulium wrote:I agree with Lataro, vikingfan is really dangerous to keep... but just to confirm:

So as long vikingfan has targeted a person, will he bring his victim to death if he is lynched?

IMO, logical thoughts on a dangerous role at the start of the game.

mieulium wrote:After further thinking:
VF is town -> he cant act till he knows who is mafia/werewolf. Mafia can use his kill to get rid of two at once + werewolf + lynch . Death rate: 4 max?
VF is scum -> nothing much will happen. till probably LYLO? if he gets his own people to kill him, and if the bus driver is scum and still alive, plus werewolf still alive, death rate, + lynch : 4 max?
VF lynched today -> VF dies, werewolf and mafia kills. death rate: 3 max.

If there is any mistake, please do correct me. I am not very sure the probability of these happening.

Good speculation, interested in the number of active kills.

mieulium wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
if he gets his own people to kill him,
If VF is Mafia there is no benefit to the Mafia to kill their own to gain one kill, why not just use their kill directly? And there is little profit to purposely attracting the werewolf to kill Scum-VF because they would rather the SK kill a random townie, instead of a mafioso+townie.

and if the bus driver is scum and still alive
How does this affect things, I'm confused by your train of thought.

Well, I was thinking an exaggerated worse case scenario... so if the bus driver is scum, he can redirect kills right, and if vf is scum, he can get mafia to kill him, and the bus driver's power will direct to kill to another townie? or is that highly improbable?

and... why are we addressing vikingfan as them?

weird strat for scum involving bus driving their own player and killing him, to maximise kills? Not good to discuss scum tactics, but this isn't a good one, so it doesn't really matter.

mieulium wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
mieulium wrote:if vf is scum, he can get mafia to kill him
This train of thought is totally illogical. If VF is Mafia then the Mafia doesn't gain anything by killing VF. If VF is the Werewolf then he doesn't gain anything by getting himself killed either.

You haven't reading my post properly, I meant that if the bus driver is scum, he could transfer the vk self kill to a townie. Unless mafia kill takes precedence over role powers, I think it is a possible solution.

I'm really inefficient at rolespec, so I tend to let you guys do it and choose what seems most probable. Disregarding my speculation, and ignoring vks role, I say bf right now pings me, not because of his powers, but of how he answered his latest post, which seems a little hurried and seem intent to place our attn to others. But that can be changed easily. Slbub pings me too, but I haven't played with him before, so not sure if panicking because his friend is not here, or losing scum buddy. Lorenz is probably the most fickle person here...., the rest are acting pretty much townie, so....

excuse for poor rolespec - not much is needed in this game - she seems to more be looking to predict what strategies people will be using. Pinged by BF and slbub.

mieulium wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote: You seem to be hung up on some wrong information.

And it seems like I am. Thanks for actually explaining some sense. I didn't get that part where VK actually has to die in eventuality in order for the power to go through.

got confused like most of us have done in this game so far. GoP helps.

mieulium wrote:I'm going to vote now so that I don't miss the deadline

Vote:slbub, but I might have the chance to change it before the deadline

The last few posts by you were really shitty as compared to your first few. Whats the rush? I don't see why you would give up at this point of time.

However, I still have IGMEOY Lorenz after much deliberation. Was planning to vote for Lorenz instead, but it could wait.

votes slbub, unsurprisingly the way he was acting.

mieulium wrote:
Lorenz wrote:
mieulium wrote:However, I still have IGMEOY Lorenz after much deliberation. Was planning to vote for Lorenz instead, but it could wait.

Can you please elaborate? I don't see that you have actually made a point against me. What is that all about?

Well, as I said in an earlier post, you were the most fickle person at the start. Which I rethink is weird, because when you have fickle voting, you either are new at this game or you are not being careful with the vote. You're not the former, so it has to be the latter. And I think being not careful with the vote is a pretty scummy move. But I just put it as IGMEOY as there is a large possibility that I am wrong...

Daniel the Sniper? Who? Is that a new character?

Explains IGMEOY on Lorenz, gives a fairly good reason. Questions flavour.

mieulium wrote:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Miulium: Agrees readily with Lataro, and only posts about the VF, now a-wan, situation, including misinterpreting the situation. Has pings from Boomfrog, slbub and Lorenz, and then drops off abit, just coming on to put a vote on slbub, and explain their IGMEOY on Lorenz. I don't like the way they are following Lataro, but there seems to be a little effort in scum hunting there.

I am not actually agreeing readily with Lataro. For all I know, Lataro might be scum. I just have the same thoughts on VF as to Lataro.

For why my posts are small and few is because I am really bad at scum analysis, especially with absolute zero powers, probably because I am gullible in real life! What I do is that I just go about it in situations, what I would do etc. . I pointed out Lorenz because he doesn't seem to stay steadfast to one inclination.

There is no definitive way of proving I am town, and there is no information that I can share. It is up to you guys to decide.

More excuses, and ends the post with one of those statements which looks innocent, but I hate, because they're so ambiguous.

All-in-all, pretty plain and I'm not leaning either way. Maybe slightly scummy in parts, but explainable as 'gullible' or other excuses which could be legit.
I will not be voting on mieu for this and I don't see why others are.

by **mpolo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:36 am UTC

So as to make sure I post something, I have just re-read basically this page. Here are my notes, for what they're worth.

Spoiler:

TOWNIER
a-wan: We seem to all be agreed on this. Hopefully, we're right. Hasn't posted a lot over the weekend.

Lataro: Seems pretty solid from here, which ups my suspicion at BF.

Lorenz: I'm not sure about his interest in roband, and lack of trust of a-wan, but he has been consistent and stood up to pressure.
roband: Got a little hysterical about the whole WW thing (I kind of started this, but it was a joke, honestly!) Generally his posts have seemed in order to me.
weiyaoli: Has pointed out some details that I missed.
Gopher: My feelings on him are less confident than earlier, since he hasn't posted all that much.
Ibarra: Generally good analysis

BF: Has had various cases of backtracking and other distancing. Some posts gave me a little impression of flailing.

Mieullium: Seems unwilling to make the effort to participate actively. Which is either dead weight, or a scum tell.
Thirdkoopa: Also very lurky. Possibly overly concerned about the slbub/Lataro sitiuation, entertaining the idea of lynching a seeming townie to clear the wine.
SCUMMIER

If there's no empty line, the various entries are close to the same level of suspicion.

So, I need to vote for one of Mieullium or Thirdkoopa. I'm going to go with Mieullium because Thirdkoopa has produced a bit more content and has a potentially usable power for town if I'm wrong about him.

Vote: Mieullium

I will try to be on before deadline in case anything changes.

by **roband** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:55 am UTC

Right, I've read through and no-one is really jumping out at me.
So I'm going to review each person on my gut instinct when I see their name.

Eddie the Conspiracy Theorist - slbub - dead.
Linda the Insomniac - Mieulium - as covered, neutral more than scummy
Carter the Medic - mpolo - seems pretty level headed, townish
Jeremy the Recluse - Thirdkoopa - not much content, but what's there seems good, neutral-town
Narisssa the Flirt -~~vikingfan~~ a-wan - dangerous role, but convincing posting. Could still be just a good liar and will screw us, but based on content, townish.
Otto the Party Animal - roband - likes to party, clearly town

Gordon the Busdriver - BoomFrog - argued with me earlier, pushed the wineyness when it was impossible to remove, it would be an OMGUS, but acceptable, vote. Neutral to scummish.
Lois the Stalker - weiyaoli - Not really got much from him, neutral.
Velma the Paranormal Investigator - GopherofPern - good content, townish
Ethel the Poisoner - Lataro - lots of content, very confident, says what he means. Either standard town-Lataro or standard scum-Lataro - hard to tell. Leaning townish for now.
Harry the Private Detective - Ibarra - All seems good. Neutral-townish.
Tony the Thief - Lorenz - my points from earlier still stand, but not much has stood out since then. Neutral.

That looks really wishy-washy, but it's where I am right now. I'm going to

vote boomfrog

for lack of a better lynchee. Yes, it's OMGUS because of the stuff earlier but I want to have a vote down.

by **BoomFrog** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:18 am UTC

Posting from for self preservation

Unvote
Vote Mieullium

by **mpolo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:35 am UTC

I totally missed roband in my previous post. I think that he's probably in the big group of neutral-idontknows — he has a lot of clouds around him, but has managed to not post anything particularly incriminating.

by **roband** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:38 am UTC

I was in there, mpolo...

mpolo wrote:roband: Analysis of Mieullium. Early good thoughts, strange discussion of scum strategy. Excuse for not posting is weak, since rolespec is unnecessary. Mieullium is more neutral than scummy

roband: Got a little hysterical about the whole WW thing (I kind of started this, but it was a joke, honestly!) Generally his posts have seemed in order to me.

by **Gopher of Pern** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:51 am UTC

Ibarra, you'll notice I had already covered what Lorenz had said about mieulium earlier, but as deadline was approaching, I thought I'd put a vote on. It just happened that Lorenz posted his thing before I did.

I don't know why everyone has a-wan as especially townie. They came in late, with all the wine about his role already passed, so there wasn't anything else they could really say. Then again, they have done a good bit of scum hunting, so I would put them on the townie side of neutral. But it does seem as if people are trusting them alot.

As for night actions, I think we should trust a-wan to not target anyone. If they don't target anyone, they would be town. If they do, we will know they are scum/WW and we can roleblock them somehow the next night to prevent the use of their power, and then we can lynch them day3.

I will use my power on who I think is most likely to be the werewolf (obviously.) Medic, Roleblocker and Thief can target who they think will be targetted by Mafia, though Roleblocker and thief should be careful who they target. Tracker/watcher whoever they think would be most useful, as their information could be useful whether they hit scum or not. Lataro I guess will target whoever they want. Bus driver gets 2 targets, and will probably be the most swingy power, but alot more difficult to get right.

by **a-wan** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:43 pm UTC

Mieulium's posting since my last post hasn't done anything to convince me she's not scum. On top of that, enough people have commented both ways about her now that we have some leads tomorrow no matter how she flips.

Vote mieulium

I would like it more if I felt like I was voting for WW, but since it's easier to identify mafia than WW, this will do. Thirdkoopa is still my number one pick for WW, but I have too little to go on.

Also, what people have said about always reading Lataro as scummy rings true to me, so I'll trust that for now. I expect night will provide additional illumination as to alignments.

by **roband** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:56 pm UTC

Mieu is now at L-1, FYI.

by **a-wan** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:00 pm UTC

I'm vacillating on my vote. There are a few reasons why I feel good about it. One is that the mistake she made in rolespec appears to have been made for different reasons than robands numerous rolespec offenses. To me, it seems like she saw that someone had voted for someone for a seemingly sound reason and was looking for a good reason to go along with the vote. Here's how it is described:

Misnomer wrote:If you are killed during the subsequent day or night phase, then your target will also die.

It's very hard for me to understand how someone would fail to see that I would have to die in order for someone I target to die. The best explanation to me is that she was trying to get someone killed, but her reason was less based on my role and more based on the fact that someone else had brought it up. The difference between her and roband is that roband was trying to describe pros and cons of a lot of different roles, but wasn't necessarily trying to get anyone killed. Mieulium was supporting Lataro to lynch based on role alone. It seems to me that if she is agreeing that it may be a good idea to lynch someone before she can decide whether or not that person is town or scum, she probably should have some effort, any effort, into understanding the role she agrees is dangerous.

Another reason I feel good about the vote is that she has basically said she doesn't want to scum hunt. As I see it, scum hunting is more dangerous for scum than it is for town. When scum participates in scum hunting, they're either calling town town and therefore making it harder for themselves to win, casting suspicion on one of their teammates, supporting a mislynch, which makes them look scummy, or defending a teammate, which will turn out bad for them if the teammate gets lynched. All four of those outcomes are bad for scum, so if there's any way to avoid it, of course they will. Mieu looks like she's trying to avoid it, which is scummy.

Reasons I'm vacillating:

1. I'd prefer to lynch WW and I don't think she's it.
2. Some of the more experienced players are either defending her or ignoring her. I've only played a few games so far. Maybe they're seeing things I'm not.
3. Despite the fact that everyone seems to be trying to convince us that her role is useful, it could actually be very useful for town regardless of alignment. I didn't want to bring this up because it would negate some of the usefulness, but since it looks like she's headed towards the lynch, I'll put it out there. As town, if she were doctored and mafia targeted her, we'd wake up tomorrow to no mafia kill and she would see that she was visited by mpolo and at least one other person. If it was only one person that person would be mafia. As mafia, she has to forego her ability to deliver the NK. Tomorrow morning all we have to do is ask her who targeted her last night. If Lataro, mpolo, weiyaoli, Ibarra, or GoP targeted her and she didn't know it, then we would know that she was probably mafia. Of course, any one of these people could lie about targeting her, but with lots of different roles and night actions, there's a good chance that we could corroborate one story or another.

Two of the more prominent players that have either defended or ignored her:

1. roband has defended her. roband is really sticking his neck out for mieulium. Either, he's really convinced she's town, or they're teammates. His defense has been kind of bold, but my experience with roband is that he would make a bold defense of a teammate and it usually works. If she flips scum, I don't know what would convince me that roband and mieu are not teammates.

2. Lataro has ignored her. When I say ignore, I mean that he has had a chance to call her scummy, but has just said that he has trouble reading her and went on to directing people's attention elsewhere. He points out that her most recent post is essentially saying "I'll be a good little bandwagoner", but the point is a very minor point in a much longer post and he again says nothing else about it and directs our attention elsewhere. Lataro says she plays safe. At this point she's on the hot seat. What does a person who usually plays safe do when they're about to get lynched? How does that change when they're scum vs. when they're town?

For now, I'm still comfortable with my vote, but my position is not unassailable, so if someone can offer a convincing reason to change my vote I will.

I have a couple more observations, but I'll put them in a new post.

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