[S] All The King's Men - Loyalists win!

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Mavketl
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Mavketl » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:25 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:I'm going to be on baby duty for the rest of the day so I won't be able to post much today.

@Mav: I am confused why you are persisting saying we should make our scum lists in your unusual format. Saying "X is town" will read as false no matter who says it and "X is scum" will read as false if the scum saying it has truthified "I am town". Therefore your scheme is useless.

It is only useless if there are more than two factions. I have explained why that seems unlikely to me. Why do you disagree?
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:05 am UTC

First of all the mod has made it abundantly clear that he is taking a very liberal view of "equivalent statements". Once scum truthify 'i am town' then later statements will read true or false as if that player is actually town. My understanding is that the only thing we can hope to gain now is that if scum truthify 'i am town' they cannot later truthify a power claim.

Secondly even if there are only town and one scum faction it is very likely that the scum don't know that for a fact. Even if the scum faction is 4 people they don't know for a fact that the other 4 are town, its only an opinion and thus false if detected on.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Angua » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:34 am UTC

I still think that there are likely to be more than 2 factions, though I agree the mod's wording does seem to suggest that there are only two. I'm surprised that Adam H is being so argumentative over why claiming vanilla town (especially on D1) is so suspect, as D1 claims are generally not that useful. They are definitely highest on my list for acting oddly. Silknor and slbub have been pretty quiet, so I don't really know what to think of them. Makvetl seems to be doing a lot of good analysis, which seems to make sense. Boomfrog has also been pretty helpful, and started the whole, I am town thing, so I think that's a good sign. Webby has been posting little, though also hasn't been posting much in their other game, so I'm putting that down as life for now, but don't have enough to form much of an opinion either way.

If there was an independent, if they truthified I am town, would I am scum also come up as true?
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Adam H » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Not to beat a dead horse, but I think it's fair for the defendant to get the closing argument.
Mavketl wrote:Adam H: I think we've been going on long enough about this. I can reply to some more stuff point-by-point if you insist, but we're going in circles and the goal posts seem to be moving all over the fucking place which makes me think that you will just move on to the next argument and say that that's what you've been saying all along. More on that below.
...
Adam H, 14 posts.
Good thing: he is active.
Unsurprisingly, I'm not impressed with some of his posts. Not only do I disagree with him on many things, the way he makes his points bothers me as well. Whenever someone calls him on an inconsistency or counters an argument, he comes up with something new and acts as if that is what he said originally. That lack of taking responsibility for one's earlier opinions/statements/etc is what I consider the most scummy thing about his posts. There's a possibility that this is his general playing style and/or inexperience is part of the cause, but I try to avoid pitfalls like "but player A is always scummy" as some sort of excuse.
Adam H is scum.
The goalposts have not moved. They are: 1) I do not think it was scummy to say "I'm vanilla town*, though... so I am more inclined to think it's 4-2-2 or 5-1-2 with strong rebel roles and weak loyalist roles." 2) I do not think it was scummy to say "from what I can tell only scum would not approve of a mass vanilla town claim. Of course, I AM new (to the pro league at least), so please correct me if I am not thinking clearly."

I have not been inconsistent, and I will take complete responsibility for everything that I've said. Just don't quote me like this: "...mass vanilla town claim..." :evil:
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Mavketl » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:02 pm UTC

Dude, you said that ONLY SCUM WOULD OPPOSE X. Which means that all non-scum would necessarily advocate it. And since you're claiming to be non-scum, you advocate it.

If you would've said "Hmm, you're right, I didn't mean it like that", no big deal. But to keep insisting that you were not at some point advocating a mass vanilla town claim is unreasonable.


As for the factions... it would not be "taking a liberal view" to say that 'scum' and 'not town' are logically equivalent if there are more than two factions - it would be dead wrong. I think it would be extremely poor modding and I don't think weiyaoli is a poor mod.

By the way, there are still people who have not posted "I am scum" and I find that highly suspicious. The 'golding' of equivalent statements has nothing to do with the strategy of saying both "I am town" and "I am scum".
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Mavketl » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

Doh! I thought I had a whole bunch of people to go for my list but it's a small list, Misnomer hasn't been playing, mpolo is secretly me, and that leaves only Silknor basically.

First, though,

Will Misnomer be modkilled?

ALSO YOU GUYS
Player list wrote:1. Misnomer (Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi!)
2. slbub (nex ut proditor, porro ago imperator)
3. webby
4. Silknor (Inter arma enim silent leges)
5. mpolo (signing up to see if this wakes up)
6. BoomFrog
7. Adam H
8. Angua
modpost wrote:10 alive, 6 to lynch immediately.
What the fuck? Is that correct?


So back to Silknor.
Silknor, 4 posts.
The first thing I noticed is that he repeatedly urges people to not take lie detector results too seriously. Which, if scum has no fancy unexpected powers, would be a rather useful thing for scum to say.
As I've said before, I don't think it's particularly out of character for town!Silknor to wait for a modly reply before joining the list strategy. I don't like that he was hesitant to claim "I am scum" next to the "I am town/a loyalist" claim, because that seems to be a separate issue. He also has not pointed out anyone or anything as "scummy", just some things as "poor strategy". Which is a valid issue, but we need scum-opinions really badly. Even on D1, since we're only 8 players...
So basically, there's a bunch of things I don't like about Silknor right now. On the other hand, I don't think this is completely out of line with his regular D1 play.
In the end, I'm not sure. If I'd have to go with a binary scum/town, I'd say Silknor is scum.
But I might change my mind about that if something interesting happens.

Recap:
I think Angua and BoomFrog are solidly town.
I think slbub is probably town (but seriously needs to de-lurk).
I'm on the fence about webby and Silknor.
I think Adam H is definitely acting scummy (but he's such an easy target which makes me hesitant to really push that wagon to be honest).

I'll be going to bed in a minute. Hopefully I'll be online for a short time in the morning (if the internet in the train to work works properly), if not, I'll get home well in time to vote before the deadline. Unless weird stuff happens, my vote will go on Adam H or Silknor or webby.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby weiyaoli » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:50 pm UTC

If there was an independent, if they truthified I am town, would I am scum also come up as true?

No, the second statement would show FALSE.

Misnomer will be modkilled at the start of D2 if a replacement is not found by then.

Goofed on that, meant 8 alive, 5 to lynch.
And you thought I was crazy...

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Mavketl » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:53 pm UTC

Something interesting happened. I no longer think Silknor is scum.

This is related to my list experiment and yes, I will have an explanation morning D2. This could get very interesting tonight...
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby webby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:48 pm UTC

First I'll make my previous list in the format Mav suggested:

Silknor is scum
slbub is scum
Adam H is town
Mavetkl is town
Angua is town
Boomfrog is town

Misnomer is scum (just in case he gets replaced, good to have a statement of this).

Now I just have to figure out what I still believe out of the above. We should make sure whoever we lynch, we give them a chance to use their lie detect. Is the 8 referred to 8am, or 8pm? 8am is 5pm my time, while 8pm will be 5am tomorrow. I'll assume 8pm for now.

I don't think anyone in the game has a worse timezone for deadline than me, but I know Boomfrog at least is in a similar timezone - not sure about the rest of you - so I think it would be a good idea to have our own deadline of 10pm my time (which is 12 hours from now, 7 hours before the deadline) to have a good idea of who we're going to lynch. We don't want to miss out on a lie detect result.

I'm busy for a little bit now, but I'll come back in a couple of hours or so and work out who I'm going to vote for.

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Silknor » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:03 am UTC

Very well mav, it might not matter, but I see no harm in it so:
I am scum.
And reposting for ease of access:
I am town.

Moving on, I have found Adam H to be a constantly moving target. The clear meaning of his words changes from post to post. I believe he advocated a strategy harmful to the town, despite his later protestations that "only scum wouldn't do this" actually means "I am inexperienced and have not yet thought of a reason why scum wouldn't want this, but I don't intend to put any suspicion on those who disagree."

I do not buy his evasions, and do not give much credit to his claims of inexperience. He comes forth with an idea and indicates he sees no possible reason a townie would oppose it:

I'm interested as to how my vanilla town claim is scummy? Isn't everyone else scummy for not claiming it?

Honestly, I disagree so completely that I'm going to push Mav, Webby, and BF (and silknor) into my scummy list - not for FoSing me, but because from what I can tell only scum would not approve of a mass vanilla town claim.


(emphasis added)

After acting as if it was obvious he was right, he fails to provide any persuasive reasons for his position. The best he came up with is that it doesn't hurt too much for power roles to truthify that statement since what else are they going to truthify.

The benefits to scum from people claiming Vanilla town are clear. I can't lend much credence to the position of I'm new if there's not an intuitive reason behind the strategy. I can find no such reason. It's not like it seems on face that it's a good idea and takes a great deal of digging to prove otherwise. Rather the reasons for have been grasping for straws while there are clear reasons the town should not support his plan.

This for me is too much.

Vote: Adam H
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby webby » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:30 am UTC

Ok, time to actually have a proper look at the players - so far I've just been going off general impressions, so this might change my mind:

Misnomer - to be modkilled or replaced. I'll just reiterate that everyone should make the statement that he's scum (or town). I'm going to say Misnomer is scum, just based on the fact that I have what is probably too many townies in my list. :P

slbub - Is the first to explicitly mention the idea that we could make multiple similar statements (although Boomfrog alluded to it). Reposts Mav's list. Suspects 'a few people'. Asks the mod some questions - seems to be looking to save the strategy. Says he may not be back before deadline. Doesn't vote, which is a big negative - town should always make sure they're voting at deadline.

Overall - slbub is town. I said earlier that he felt a bit different from normal games, but I've convinced myself that the difference is actually trying to help town, not just pretending to be town.

Silknor - First post other than confirm says that he's a loyalist and speculates on ways the lie detector could fail. This in itself is slightly scummy, as it's something that town might do, but that scum would do (if that makes sense). Also, he only posted a single 'I am a loyalist' rather than a list of statements as requested. This was also his only post before what was supposed to be the deadline. I voted for him at this point. Boomfrog votes first, Adam H says he'd also be on the bandwagon but doesn't vote (I include this as a reference to remind myself for later if we're interested in links between players).

Silknor then comes back saying that he'd asked the mods to change the rules, because he (rightly) believed the game was broken. Explains why he didn't post the list. Overall this post seems reasonable - it doesn't necessarily make him town, but it is a plausible explanation for his behaviour if he is. Adam H then votes for him. Mav won't vote for him.

Another post explaining why he asked mod in private, not public and also explaining to Adam H why vanilla town claiming is a bad idea without going over the top or being confrontational. This post is quite townie, the only slight problem with it is the part where he says he has suspicions and opinions, without mentioning any except for a fence-sitting statement about Adam H. Notes to Mav the problem with saying '... is scum' or '... is town'. I guess that's true, although I do like that we're being forced to say either town or scum - the absence of being able to say someone is neutral is, in my opinion, a good thing.

And a post explaining why exactly he thinks Adam H is scum. It is going after the easy target, but I can see exactly why he would put his vote there.

Overall - Silknor is town. Still minor things I'm not happy with and I'd like him to give an opinion on players other than Adam H, but I'm leaning town here.

Mavketl - Claims town in first post. Says we shouldn't use lie detectors too early. This is an interesting point, because I was considering using mine quite early if I saw something scummy (before they had a chance to discuss things at night, especially if there are any powers that mess with the lie detectors). I like Mav's statement in the next post about cop powers being best used unpredictably, given that then scum don't know what they can get away with (here they won't know what to truthify). Thinks that we should claim all results, which I agree with. The only point of not claiming is that scum won't nightkill you, but if you do have a result which you haven't claimed, you don't want to be nightkilled anyway.

Posts her experiment. I'm reserving judgment on this until the morning, when she's promised to explain. Uses the term 'rebel' coined by Adam H. Not happy with people who copy her list (oops). Realises the term rebel was never used in flavour, but came from Adam H. Posts list of 'anti-statements', which are no longer particularly useful (until this stage she'd only said 'I am town/a loyalist' and 'I am not a rebel').

Strong attack on Adam H for vanilla town stuff. Won't vote for Silknor because she thinks what he did fits his normal playing style. Suggests the '... is scum' type statements which actually turn out not to be of any use (especially as 'I think ... is scum' would come up with the same result to a lie detector).

Thinks there aren't any independents (reasonable). Continues attack on Adam H.

Analysis post. Nothing really unusual there - all seems reasonable. Then changes mind on Silknor based on her experiment.

Overall - Mav is town. Quite a lot of good content with only minor negatives. I'm reserving judgment here until she tells us about the experiment.

Boomfrog - Suggests the 'I am a loyalist' plan. Suggests town should only make true statements so that scum can't mess with it by truthifying. This actually got a bit lost/ignored, but I don't agree with it anyway - if scum use their truthify on this, they can't use it on themselves, so that's ok. Gives the long list of statements. Thinks Adam H was just being flippant about the rebels thing. Good analysis post and vote for Silknor. Corrects my misinterpretation of the rules. Points out exactly why scum would want to claim 'I am vanilla town', which I hadn't appreciated before.

Overall - Boomfrog is town. But I'm not as convinced as I was when I did my quick analysis before.

I'm going to do Angua and Adam H later. (And yes I'm aware this will need recalibrating because I just called everyone town. :P)

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Adam H » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:10 am UTC

Mavketl wrote:Dude, you said that ONLY SCUM WOULD OPPOSE X. Which means that all non-scum would necessarily advocate it.
Sorry I meant to address this last time you mentioned it. Your logic is incorrect. There are obviously more options than opposing or advocating. In my case, I am basically neutral - I would advocate it if I thought there was a chance that it would happen. Silknor's earlier response was also reasonably different from an opposition, IMO ("In general, I do not see the purpose a mass vanilla town claim serves.").

Silknor wrote:The benefits to scum from people claiming Vanilla town are clear.
The only benefit that I have been given is that then scum knows who is vanilla and who is power... Which is just plain WRONG. Scum does not know what role I am!

Silknor wrote:I have found Adam H to be a constantly moving target. The clear meaning of his words changes from post to post. I believe he advocated a strategy harmful to the town, despite his later protestations that "only scum wouldn't do this" actually means "I am inexperienced and have not yet thought of a reason why scum wouldn't want this, but I don't intend to put any suspicion on those who disagree."
There should be a law against misquoting. :evil: The only time i said anything like "I am inexperienced and have not yet thought of a reason..." was in the SAME POST I said "only scum would oppose mass vanilla town claim". Seriously, if you are going to accuse me of changing my arguments, then just quote two posts that contradict each other.
-Adam

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Adam H » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:19 am UTC

Ah crap and I won't get a chance to get on before deadline... hrrrrm... so something interesting apparently happened to mav... Well since finding out that silknor is scum would hand us the other one, and silknor seems so obviously scum to me, I guess I'll just stick with my vote on Silknor...

if this is it for me, i guess there's always next game to make it past the first day... :cry:
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby webby » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:56 am UTC

Hang on, if you're still around and you're town, you need to lie detect someone and give us the results. The fact that you haven't done that when you think you're going to be lynched and you're not coming back before deadline is not a good sign.

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:15 am UTC

Adam H wrote:In my case, I am basically neutral - I would advocate it if I thought there was a chance that it would happen.
That is not a neutral stance. It means you think it would be a good idea for everyone to do it but you don't think you could convince everyone to do it. You have yet to give an actual benifit to a mass vanilla claim. At best it is equivilent to not claiming.

The only benefit that I have been given is that then scum knows who is vanilla and who is power... Which is just plain WRONG. Scum does not know what role I am!
Scum have a lie detect power. If everyone claims Vanilla town either all the power town have to use up thier truthify or the scum have a way of possibly detecting power town. If there is no mass claim then scum has absolutly no use for thier detect truth power (persumably).

You're either town who is using extreamly disjointed logic, or you are scum who has painted himself into a corner. I'm leaning towards the latter, my vote stands. I agree with Webby that you should use your lie detect on someone.

------------------------------------------

Mavketl wrote:By the way, there are still people who have not posted "I am scum" and I find that highly suspicious. The 'golding' of equivalent statements has nothing to do with the strategy of saying both "I am town" and "I am scum".
I am super confused by this and the "X is scum" scumlists. Either I am missing your point or you are missing mine. Can you give an example situation where using detect truth on "X is town" or "X is scum" would yield a more useful result then using detect truth on "I am town"? Keeping in mind the following:

weiyaoli wrote:
If a scum player states about his teammate "X is scum", but he has previously Truthified the statment "I am town" what will be the result of a detect truth on "X is scum"?

As the scum truthified that he is town, the statement will be treated as coming from town and would therefore show FALSE.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby webby » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:49 am UTC

Boomfrog, I agree it's pointless, but I'm continuing with it because I kind of like not having the option of saying '... is neutral', it forces me to have an opinion, even though the opinion has generally seemed to be '... is town' so far.


Angua - I'm not going to go through every single one of her posts, because I want to spend my time analysing Adam H. Suffice it to say that she's acting like she's trying to help town, but I'd like longer posts and more and stronger opinions on people. Angua is town.

Now, Adam H - First to mention the idea of multiple statements which are all true for town. But also the first to use the term 'damn rebel'. I would assume that this would be covered - as in the lie detector would accept rebel as a synonym for scum. So I don't see that as a major problem. A post with the list of statements, but also the claim of vanilla town. For the people that haven't played with Adam H before, read the first day of magicians - viewtopic.php?f=53&t=73700&start=40 - in particular the whole no lynch argument. That is what this feels like (I particularly like Misnomer's 'Acting scummy to promote discussion is never a defence.' :P)

He eventually votes for Silknor, just at the point where Silknor is looking better. Then has a massive argument with Mav and there's nothing else really. I don't like that he disappeared without lie detecting anything, which seems very bad. I guess if he's scum, the idea is that we'd rather lynch someone else than have the potential of a lie detector from a townie left unused. But I'm more inclined to think he's a townie who was so caught up in the argument he didn't think to use his detector.

Overall - Adam H is town. I accept the possibility that he plays scum the same way as he plays town, but I don't like this lynch - it feels like there's scum sitting back and just letting it through - there's no discussion of alternative candidates or anything.

So there you go, apparently everyone is town except Misnomer who hasn't posted. :P This is annoying, because nobody has been perfect, but equally nobody has stuck out as being overly scummy - as far as I can tell everyone is acting how they usually do.

I'm going to put people in this order from scum to town:
1. slbub
2. Adam H
3. Mavketl
4. Silknor
5. Angua
6. Boomfrog

And I'm going to

Vote: slbub

basically by a process of elimination, but also because he does seem slightly different to normal. I put this down as actually tying to be helpful for once, but now I'm going to go with my 'slbub is like more_people' theory and say that he actually looks more townie when he's scum than when he's town. Also, I'd like him to post more and hopefully this will put the pressure on.

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Angua » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:33 am UTC

Everyone seems to tell me that I need to be more aggressive with longer posts, but I never really know where to begin.

As for Adam H's lie detect - if they really can't get back online before the end of the day, then they wouldn't get the results anyway, because I was under the impression that lie detection took place via pm (note, I'm not saying that them not using it is a good thing, just that it might be understandable).

As for something interesting happening to Mav - does that seem a bit strange to anyone else? Does Mav often say weird things and say they'll explain them the next day? It almost seems like some sort of hook to make sure that they get to the next day, or a cry for someone to try and NK them, otherwise why bother saying anything at all? Especially as Silknor no longer seem to be under threat.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:58 am UTC

Angua wrote:Everyone seems to tell me that I need to be more aggressive with longer posts, but I never really know where to begin.
Make a list of all the players and say for each one if you think they are scummy or townie and why.

Angua wrote:As for something interesting happening to Mav - does that seem a bit strange to anyone else?
Well she said that she was "doing an expiriment" early D1 by making he wierd list of claims. Obviously she has some sort of power involving making statements, and the fact that she claimed power town right off the bat is generally a bad move, but Mav is experienced enough to know that so I assume her action justifies the risk. If she had tried to make her statements more subtelly then she would have probably been cought and called scummy for it. The reason she promised to explain at the start of D2 is that I asked her too. Although it seems she has already used her power since she got a result today so I don't see why she can't explain herself right now. :?

If we started at 5-3 which seems reasonable as long as town has a few powers, and if Misnomer is town and we mislynch and there is a NK then we could potentially be at 3-3 D2. Although it's very possible that town will protect against the NK or will have a Vig that hopefully has good aim. So we're likely to be at 4-3 or 3-2. It's risky but I'm willing to let Mav live for now. If she is scum then she is very bold scum.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Angua » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:45 am UTC

Misnomer (Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi!) - hasn't said anything besides the fact that they can't play. Will be replaced or modkilled.

2. slbub (nex ut proditor, porro ago imperator) - Hasn't said that much, and is apparently currently busy irl. First post was saying I am a loyalist, I am not scum. Posted the lists when they were in vogue. Joined in on speculation of game set up - seems to think 5-2-1 or 6-2 are the most likely outcomes. Fos's everyone who hasn't posted the lists, and says that they suspect some people, but don't say who. Asks about whether or not the lists are useful after the rule change. Then says has unexpected exams coming up. Never posted suspicions though - so I find this suspect.

3. webby Posts they are a loyalist, as well as suggesting we try to get two players to say the other is scum to try to out teams - but suggests this is better for late game, however would have the draw back of being messed up by a truthify or someone being a cop. Posts the list. Says that the game would be broken with 6-2, so more likely 4-2-2 or 5-3. Worries about the scum's ability to falsify statements, and so suggests a second list of scum statements. Does a fairly short analysis of other players, and votes Silknor. Emphasises making sure that we don't lynch before the lynchee has a chance to use their lie detect. Asks the mod to clarify on whether or not lie detection is via pm or in game. Unvotes Silknor, and vaguely defends Adam H as them being a stubborn and argumentative person in general. Says that they feel slbub is feeling scummy to them and asks for opinions. Reposts opinions in the format Makvetl suggested, and asks for clarification on exact lynch deadline. Does long analysis of all players, saying that they're town at the end of each one. Tells Adam H to use their lie detect. Finishes their analysis, then makes order of most to least scummy - and vote slbub who was at the top of their list. I'm not really sure what to think about this - giving reasons for finding everyone town seems slightly scummy, but to be honest, trying to figure this sort of stuff out is difficult anyway. They seemed to stick with their guns though on the slbub front.

4. Silknor (Inter arma enim silent leges) Not many posts so far. First post points out that getting scum to say x is town would be messed up by the presence of independent factions, and states that they are a loyalist. Agrees with webby that there could be a way of messing with the lie detectors besides the truthify. Doesn't post for a while, saying that this was because they were clarifying stuff with the mods, and didn't see the point of the list. Tells Adam H that vanilla town claiming is a subtle form of wifom. Tells webby that they could be bringing up the possibility of a falsify power in order to try and reduce the use of the lie detectors because they don't want people over relying on them. Replies to my question by saying that they prefer to do things in pms to mods because it's less likely to influence opinion, and prefers it that way when they mod games. Long discussion about why a mass vanilla town claim is never a good idea. Says that they don't really have any opinions yet, other than Adam Hs strategies being suspect. Next post says that they are finding Adam H more suspect, with lots of moving goal posts, and votes Adam H. I'm unsure what to think - at the moment I'm getting a slightly arrogant feel from them, and wouldn't be surprised that if they were scum with Adam H, they would vote for him anyway because he seems to be pretty bad at it.

5.Makvetl Says they are town, but we should hold off on lie detectors for now. Asks the mod if we can truthify statements from other players. Says that they are suspicious of everyone who didn't immediately post I am town, and that we should use our powers randomly, and publicly announce their use as soon as we get results. Asks about lie detecting hypothetical statements, and does their experimental list. Clarifies question for mod. Tells people off for copying list as it was supposed to be fore a specific purpose. Mentions that referring to scum as rebels could be a way of getting around the lists, and was first used by Adam. Wants to know what people think that scum posting those lists would also be a good tactic. Asks boomfrog why the one-shot vig makes him nervous. Says they might explain their experiment in the morning, depending on the night. Talks about Silknor feeling scummy to them, and then spends time on the Adam vanilla town thing. Says that people should say X is scum in their analyses [I don't really see the reason for this though]. Says that the possibility of independents is low, due to statement from mod. Argues with Adam. Does some minor FoS's for copying the lists that they didn't think have any advantage for town, and for not claiming town immediately. Analysis of players. Says their tactic for saying x is scum is useful so long as there are only 2 factions. More arguing with Adam, saying that they are sure about only 2 factions, and says they find people who haven't said 'I am scum' very suspicious. Asks about misnomer being killed, and points out weiyoali's mistake with the numbers. Something interesting happens, and they say that they don't think Silknor is scum. Overall - very active, and trying to lead town without offering many explanations. I wouldn't be surprised if they are targeted for the NK after saying that they'll reveal stuff tomorrow.

6. BoomFrog First post suggests everyone posting I am a loyalist so we can check those with the lie detectors. Asks about logically equivalent statements, and suggests some that town can use that shouldn't be messed up by a truthify (unless scum has a falsify as well). Says they think people should only claim using the lie detector if they get a false result. Makes a list of statements (though not Makvetl's) and asks about Makvetl's experiment. Also speculates on the set up and wonders if the mods realised it would be this powerful. Says they think that Adam talking about rebels was just flippancy. Quick analysis at first deadline, and votes Silknor - asks for clarification on deadline. Says that the lynchee should get the pick of what to lie detect. Says they think there will only be one NK from flavour text. Responds to mavetl asking why teh one shot vig makes them nervous by saying that they can't discuss it without revealing makvetl's role. Says we might as well say that everyone else is scum. Says they liked silknor's post, and so, votes Adam H over the vanilla town debacle. Says that they aren't sure about no independents because the mod is taking a liberal view of equivalent statements, and that scum saying other players are town can't be true, because they can't be certain that there are no independents. Says Adam is acting like scum in a corner. Still asking makvetl about their logic with the X is town/scum statements. Responds to my post saying htat they think Makvetl is playing boldly, and will let them get off for now. I think I'm trusting boomfrog the post at the moment. I agree with them that posting x is scum/town doesn't seem to be much use.

7. Adam H First post is saying that having rebels vouching for each other isn't necessarily a bad thing. Suggests multiple statements, so scum can't truthify all of them. Makes a list, and says that 5-3 would be too strong for scum as they are vanilla town - probably 5.2.1 or 4.2.2, and pings Silknor. Justifies the lists by it making scum use up their lie detection, and then we start the vanilla town argument. Says they are on the silknor bandwagon, and as waiting for their lie detection. votes silknor and accuses them of being unhelpful because they didn't want to use their lie detect before being lynched. Says they don't understand identical statements after pming with mods. vanilla argument. more. more. more.more. Says they won't be able to post more before deadline, adn that they are sticking with silknor, though with some weird justification for it. No mention of lie detecting, even though they seme to accept the fact they are likely to be lynched. Personally, I find this pretty clumsy, and so also find him being high on the suspicion list.

I think I will vote for Adam, though will wait to see how long we can hold off lynching them to see if they will post iwth the lie detection. However, if the deadline is getting close, I'll go ahead and post anyway.

Also
Makvetl is scum
Silknor is scum
Adam H is scum
Webby is scum
Boomfrog is scum.
slbub is scum
misnomer is scum
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby weiyaoli » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

Votals:
Silknor (1): Adam H
Adam H (2): BoomFrog, Silknor
Slbub (1): webby

8 alive, 5 to lynch immediately. About 3 hours to go until deadline.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Mavketl » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:02 pm UTC

Well, fuck. I seem to have messed up.

BoomFrog: you were right. Thanks for (repeatedly >.< ) pointing out how wrong I was.

I had somehow missed a very important modpost, so I was working under the assumption that the only rule change from the OP was that 'equivalent' statements would be 'golded' with a truthify. What I missed was that using truthify on a statement apparently also falsifies all opposite statements (which I think is a bad decision by the way, and not necessary for the game's balance, since it addresses a completely different issue than golding 10 ways of saying "I am town"). Either way, my screw-up, not anyone else's.


Also, I lied about the Silknor thing. I used my lie detector on his "I am scum" (from here. It came up FALSE, and I said the result was related to my role/power/experiment because I wanted to mislead scum. I would've come clean about that tomorrow morning, when I was explaining about the other thing. I was hoping to influence scum's NK target by implying I had already used my power during the day.

I hate that I have to say all of this now, but I don't want to risk dying and everyone going "well, Silknor must be town" when I flip town -- because apparently I don't know shit about Silknor's alignment (assuming scum have truthified their town claims) and I have also completely wasted my detection.


---------------

I think this makes it even more clear that there are no other factions than "scum" and "town", though. Logically, with the current TRUE/FALSE examples validated by the mod it would make zero sense for there to be more than two factions.


---------------

I'm still going to vote for Adam H, because I basically said "GUYS I KNOW THAT SILKNOR IS TOWN" and he is still voting for Silknor. And he didn't know that I had screwed up. :P If he thinks I'm lying scum, he should be voting for me. If he thinks I'm town, he should've unvoted. Unless he thinks I'm incompetent town which apparently I am but I don't think that's entirely relevant here since as far as he knew lie detectors were not even involved


Vote: Adam H

I'm rather annoyed that he has not used his lie detector since he seemed like the most likely lynch target already and he knew he would not be around before the end. Could be a case of "don't care to help town if they kill me" (which is poor play obviously), could be a case of "I'm scum and don't want to give them any info, wine or not", could be a case of "I'm scum and I don't want to die maybe if I disappear they will pick someone else who is around to use their lie detector". None of those options really discourage me from voting for him.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Mavketl » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:02 pm UTC

Also, I think I forgot to say sorry. Sorry.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D1 Murder in the palace?

Postby Angua » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:12 pm UTC

Ok, as we seem to be running out of time

vote: Adam H

I'm assuming that the person with the most votes will be lynched even if we don't hammer, and as misnomer isn't playing, if webby doesn't change their vote, then Adam H will still have time to lie detect if they manage to swoop in before the deadline.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - N1 AdamH Executed!

Postby weiyaoli » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:20 pm UTC

After a long fruitless day of fingerpointing and shifting the blame, the council finally decides to execute Adam H for the murder. Deciding to adjourn the court,the ink still fresh for Adam H's execution notice, the various courtiers shifted off to enjoy the last few hours of the day before retiring to bed.

Final Votals:
Silknor (1): Adam H
Adam H (4): BoomFrog, Silknor, Mavketl, Angua
Slbub (1): webby

Adam H is lynched. His role will be revealed tomorrow morning.

Misnomer will be modkilled at the start of D2 unless I find a replacement.

Get night actions in promptly please.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby weiyaoli » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:46 pm UTC

During the night, strange noises were heard inside webby's household. By the time guards had reached webby's bedchamber, it was discovered that it was already too late for him. But it seemed that webby was prepared, sleeping with a dagger underneath his pillow and Misnomer's body lay broken by the bedside.

Webby was Charles Brandon, a Loyalist Doctor, that could protect someone except himself every night.

Misnomer is modkilled. He was Benjamin Polsnack, a Revolutionary. As a result of this mod-kill, the revolutionaries will receive an additional lie detect and truthify.

The next morning, as soon as court started, notice of AdamH's fate came. It seems that he had bribed the prison guards and slipped out of the city leaving only the message that he had grown tired of the squabbling.

AdamH was Thomas Moore, a Jester, that won if he was lynched on D3.

Deciding not to bother with tracking him down, it was clear that he was not a revolutionary and you did not have the resources with the kingdom on the brink of collapse, the council decided to carry on for the day.

5 alive, 3 to lynch. No set deadline yet.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Mavketl » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:19 pm UTC

This game's truthify/lie detector mechanism makes no sense to me at all with an independent. Like, what the hell?

Either way, with the scum now having an extra trutify, I think we'll have to depend on scumhunting more than town's remaining lie detectors. Scum just won't lie (they have no reason to as far as I can see) and if they do, they can afford to fix it. It won't hurt using some of those detectors soon, though, since I imagine we only have one scum left? (3 scum, 1 indep and 4 town seems unbalanced, no?)


And to beat you guys to asking: I didn't get anything that needs publicizing during N1. I will claim if everyone is all "Mav u so scummy for this", but I would prefer not to.


Lastly: slbub, start talking. You need to make up for yesterday's lack of any contribution (such as, I dunno, voting or talking) by rather a lot. In my mind, there is a 50ish% chance that you are scum and that is only going to get higher if you don't bother to act like a townie.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Angua » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

So, mafia was mod-killed, we got an independent, but we lost our doctor. I'm guessing that there is only the one scum as well, but I think we should hopefully have a high chance of managing to find them. I agree that we should probably try the lie detectors soonish - I'll try and figure out what would be best to do today.

I'll chime in with wanting to hear from slbub - hopefully they won't be as busy this week.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Silknor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:45 pm UTC

1 Scum certainly makes more sense than 2. 4 Town, 1 Jester, 3 Scum doesn't seem particularly fair. But of course, it could also have been 4 Town, 1 Jester, 1 Other Independent, 2 Scum. So we may not be out of the woods with regards to independents yet.

That possibility, plus the wealth of truthifies available to the scum, may make lie detector use difficult.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby slbub » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

on the topic of a second independant it was not speciffically said who webby was killed by, although the dead scum next to him makes it look like scum killed him.

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Mavketl » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:17 pm UTC

slbub wrote:on the topic of a second independant it was not speciffically said who webby was killed by, although the dead scum next to him makes it look like scum killed him.

What does the modkill have to do with whether or not there's another independent?
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby slbub » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:58 pm UTC

the only part of the modkill that applies is the flavor not that has anything to do with an independent, the part that does is that it doesn't say how webby was killed/who he was killed by.
apologies if I was unclear.

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Angua » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:44 am UTC

Are you going to add anything more than the fact that the NK on webby may not have been by scum? Because it looks like the mod wrote the flavour as misnomer killing webby (and webby fighting back) as we would already find out misnomer was scum, and they didn't want the lightening bolt from above flavour.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:31 pm UTC

If there is another indie I'd guess survivor or lyncher. Lyncher generally go for it D1 so I'm guessing survivor. If its a survivor then they are basically a toss up on D3 instead of two town vs one scum, so we can't really do much about it today. Although the survive until D3 jester is basically a survivor anyway, so I really doubt we have any indies left.

If AdamH didn't use any truthifies what would a detect result be on his statement "i am scum"?
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:39 pm UTC

Slbub and silknor, how about a scum list? Also I almost forgot. Angua your post D1 was epic and the raw effort you made has put you on the townie side of my list, but for future reference you should put a summary for each person saying scummy or town. It prevents hiding in wishywashyness.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Angua » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

Remembered for next time - thanks.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby slbub » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:52 pm UTC

@ mav: i thought i was pretty clear on the fact that there might be another inde. due to the full confirmation of the mod, but i guess not.

as for the list, did you mean call everyone scum, or just who i thought was scum?

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby Mavketl » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:57 pm UTC

huh, what was that in response to?

(lol i cant english properly)
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby slbub » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:14 pm UTC

Mavketl wrote:
slbub wrote:on the topic of a second independent it was not specifically said who webby was killed by, although the dead scum next to him makes it look like scum killed him.

What does the modkill have to do with whether or not there's another independent?


the favor of the mod left an open end to how webby died, i was speculating that there might be an independent.

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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:25 am UTC

I'm really not seeing that slbub? It sounds to me like misnomer attacked Webby in the middle of the night and Webby fatally stabbed him during the struggle.

And ideally I'd like you to list all the other players and say if they are town or scum. There are only four besides yourself it shouldn't take that long.
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Re: [S] All The King's Men - D2 That was easy...

Postby slbub » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:34 am UTC

it didn't say strait forward enough (for me at least) but i know that it looks very much so that it was a mafia kill, on that point i think this might be the best course...

Mods, was webby killed by the mafia, or are we not suppose to know?

any who as for the list

boomfrog is town
angua is town
Mav is town
silknor is scum

they haven't posted much this day other than just commenting on my comment about the inde., which isn't bad but there has not been that much activity from them the whole time, less than me at least. he has also failed to post any kind of a list longer than this:

Silknor wrote:...
I am scum.
And reposting for ease of access:
I am town.
...


also a question for anybody who still cares: the whole original list of the whole role claiming, is that entirely useless through the golding thing or would it still work?

i ask this because Silknor was the only person to contest this action of the both lists.


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