The Resistance 4 (GAME OVER, Resistance win 3-1)

[Adam H]

You didn't address either of my 2 most recent posts on the topic.

I'm pretty sure you are just making stuff up now. Quote or paraphrase what you don't think I addressed. I looked back and couldn't find anything.

Anyways, this has just devolved into namecalling. Here's my original argument summed up: You should reject unless you have a good reason to accept. Anything else I said was just trying to clarify what a "good reason" is.

[Adam H]

EBWOP: And this is why I think you are scum (other than you pushing for suboptimal town strategy):

Rigwarl, this is your first resistance game. But you are way too sure of the "correct" strategy, and it seems like you've read over past games - it just makes me think that you were a part of that spy chat at the beginning. And you accepted the last mission that you weren't a part of, which I'm considering a scumtell even if no one else is.

[t1mm01994]

I'm chiming in today to say that I'm on my be with the flu now. I won't be posting coherently until I get better, I'll keep you up to speed.

[rigwarl]

a game with a different ruleset

[webby]

The current team leader is: TheMaskedGecko.
The proposed mission is: 1.

Proposed Team Member 1: TheMaskedGecko
Proposed Team Member 2: rigwarl
Proposed Team Member 3: t1mm01994

Votes:
1. Angua - ACCEPT
2. Rigwarl - ACCEPT
3. t1mm01994 - ACCEPT
4. _infina_ - REJECT
5. Lataro - ACCEPT
6. Boomfrog - ACCEPT
7. Silknor - ACCEPT
8. Gopher of Pern - ACCEPT
9. Adam H - ACCEPT
10. TheMaskedGecko - ACCEPT

No Confidence has been used.

The proposed team has been REJECTED. There is now a brief window (I'll say 18 hours) where the use of Strong Leader is allowed, but given it is meant to be used now, you may not discuss in-thread whether to use it. If Strong Leader is not used, the next leader will be Angua.

Consecutive rejected teams - 2/3.

Deadline is Friday 28th February, 10am AEDST - three days from now.

[t1mm01994]

*You assume that deception was used on infina. Then you assume that it could not have been used on rigwarl. At least one of those has to be a bad assumption.

Where exactly did I assume deception was used on infina? Where did I assume it could not have been used on rigwarl? Why are you so sure one of these two is false?

Well now you're just grasping at straws. First, both could easily be true, or false. The key word is ASSUMPTION. And you DEFINITELY assume that rigwarl is town, and that infina would be scum even if you got a town result on him. Cut the bullshit.

Uhm.. Reread that for yourself. Try to explain to yourself how much sense it makes. Then explain it to me. At first you say: At least one of the assumptions is bad. Then I ask: Why are you so sure one of these two is false? And you reply by "both could easily be true. Uhm.. Is it just me there, or does that make no sense?
Apart from that: Isn't assuming things the entire point of Mafia? You find something you think it's true, assume it's true, and act on it. You assumed the first mission would failed. You seem to be assuming that infina is town. You assume rig is scum. Yet you accuse me for assuming things? Sense, it doesn't make that much.
At the mission, I think this is a desperate attempt from infina to snatch away at least 1 mission for the spies. We have 9/10 votes, and still the mission doesn't get accepted.. So, infina, explain yourself? If you had let it run, and you are town, you either would have caught 1 or 2 spies (rigwarl and me), or the mission would have passed.

@Flu: Damn the flu, I'm going to make posts here because most other people don't.

[webby]

Players that may need prodding:
Boomfrog - last post 3.5 days ago.

Actually, that's it - I thought there were more. A little bit more activity would be nice, but I'm generally pretty happy.

[BoomFrog]

I got food poisoning yesterday, but most of my fevered dreams have been about this game and Game of Thrones. So I should have lots to say about 24 hours from now when I feel better.

[Adam H]

I'm very pleased the mission was NCed, just because now we don't have to worry about the NC.

T1mm: yeah, honestly I think we generally agree, but the way you two are going about this makes me a bit more likely to believe infina is town than rigwarl.

[Lataro]

What is this I don't even...

I'm really not sure what to think here. I agree with Adam H about rig seeming very spy-like (Though not about infina looking much better, perhaps in comparison, but not as a standalone). There are two things at conflict:

Occam's Razor vs. The way things seem and feel.

Old Occam suggests that timmy and rig are both resistance, yet, rig is acting so blatantly not resistance-like that I'm about to throw it out the window.

At this point, we have two choices before us.

1. Timmy uses SL and we get the reject counter reset to 0 from 2.
2. We accept whatever team is proposed next.

I'm leaning for Timmy to take charge since I'm not happy with being in an accept or lose situation with a leader who I don't feel good about.

[Angua]

Okey dokey, I'm back! I didn't expect to be team leader so soon though. I'm sad that Lataro isn't happy with me - who would you prefer? The problem with t1mm using strong leader now is that if this mission fails, we won't have them able to use it for when we have more information.

I assume I am still doing the same mission as before, so we need 3 players (though I only need 2 more to choose). I'll have to give a read through later, as I've got a lot of work to catch up on.

[Adam H]

a game with a different ruleset

This is the reason you think we should auto-accept every mission team?

This game and the vanilla resistance game are similar enough. The only thing that makes a difference is the 3 consecutive rejection instead of 5, but that's not a qualitative difference, just a quantitative one. The strategy is good for both rulesets, just to a lesser degree because you can't afford to reject as many missions. But anyways, the change to the strong leader power and the rule that spies can't auto-reject their own mission proposal by not proposing one almost cancels out the 5->3 change.

[Adam H]

EBWOP:

This is the reason you think we should auto-accept every agreed-upon mission team?

Sorry to put words in your mouth, I hate when people do that to me, and I just did it to you. I think I fixed it though.


I had a wicked thought. Since this is a throwaway mission IMO (it's gonna pass and we're not going to learn anything from it), if Angua doesn't propose a mission, it's either a random mission if he's town, or a 50/50 chance at being resistance only if Angua is spy.

Probably qualifies as rule abuse though.

[Angua]

She

[Adam H]

Uh, would you believe it was a typo? I totally meant she. Anyways, sorry.

[rigwarl]

Regarding the thread-old argument. I am tired of it as you are too I am sure, so I will simply say that qualitative matters. The difference is more easy to understand if you think about a situation with 2 rejections instead of 3. This will be my last post on the topic, feel free to respond if you like but I will not.

I had a wicked thought. Since this is a throwaway mission IMO (it's gonna pass and we're not going to learn anything from it), if Angua doesn't propose a mission, it's either a random mission if he's town, or a 50/50 chance at being resistance only if Angua is spy.

Probably qualifies as rule abuse though.

Rules abuse aside, there is a 40% chance Angua is spy, leading to a 50% chance of a spy being on it. There's a 60% chance Angua is town, which leads to an 83% chance the mission has a spy on it. So if we let that happen, basically like a ~70% chance the mission will have a spy on it. Doesn't that seem like, super bad for resistance?

[rigwarl]

maybe a 0% chance the mission will have a spy on it because webby will smite us all

[Angua]

So, I'm thinking (assuming everyone is ok with mission 1) that we do me, t1mm and one other. Maybe boomfrog?

What does everyone else think?

[_infina_]

So, I'm thinking (assuming everyone is ok with mission 1) that we do me, t1mm and one other. Maybe boomfrog?

What does everyone else think?

I will again reject a mission with t1mm on it. At this point in time I would feel better if Lataro was on it instead of t1mm.

[Adam H]

I don't think we should give Angua any input into this team. It really doesn't matter who's on it, and I want to see what she comes up with, knowing that we'll probably be more likely to put these players on the next mission.

Something we haven't talked about that might be worth discussing is the idea of doing a 4 player mission. We put the ITS on someone, and if it passes than we go on the 3 player mission with the people that weren't ITSed. And if it fails then BF takes some heat, and the ITSed player gets some town cred.

I read what I just wrote and I know it sounds stupid. But I have a bad feeling about where the game is going*, and I'd like to shake things up somehow.

*This mission will pass and the next mission (4 players) will fail, and we won't learn anything from either...

[t1mm01994]

Had infina not pulled the plug on attempt 2, we might have learned something... But hey, spies don't like us to learn #donewithplayingalong
Angua, I suggest you don't use BF, or GoP, or Silk. I'd go for a team with 3 of TMG, rig, Lataro, you and me.

[Adam H]

Had infina not pulled the plug on attempt 2, we might have learned something...

Like what?

Why don't we just go on that same mission? We'd all accept it. What would we not learn?

[Adam H]

EBWOP: and it's been 18 hours since the mission was rejected, so I can say this now: Lataro, dammit you are careless. As soon as you suggested using Strong Leader, it could no longer be used. I realize you probably didn't read what webby had just written, but at best it's dangerously bad reading (and remembering that this is how it worked last mission), and at worst you're scum purposefully stopping t1mm from using SL.

Or I suppose you're town purposefully stopping t1mm from using SL, but I can't imagine why you'd do that without saying what you're doing.

So yeah, we have a couple weak links now - with Angua and Infina (infina would rather angua be leader than TMG), and with Angua and Lataro (lataro would rather Angua be leader than t1mm). Also, lataro and t1mm are a bit less likely to both be scum.

[Lataro]

Or I didn't pay attention to time stamps/ect and didn't realize it couldn't be used, thinking webby hadn't made a post explicitly saying it can't be used anymore, akin to being able to continue a day in a normal game til a mod calls for night.

[rigwarl]

I suggest same plan as last time since basically nothing has changed, myself/t1mm/Angua with ITS on Angua. You can see my arguments for it in the thread.

[BoomFrog]

I agree with that mission team as well, lets get on with this.

[Angua]

So, I'm thinking (assuming everyone is ok with mission 1) that we do me, t1mm and one other. Maybe boomfrog?

What does everyone else think?

I will again reject a mission with t1mm on it. At this point in time I would feel better if Lataro was on it instead of t1mm.

I'm pretty sure that if you reject the mission, we lose it anyway.

I'm not sure how much I trust rigwarl. I'll go for it if others think it's best though.

[Adam H]

Or I didn't pay attention to time stamps/ect and didn't realize it couldn't be used, thinking webby hadn't made a post explicitly saying it can't be used anymore, akin to being able to continue a day in a normal game til a mod calls for night.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. A few hours before you suggested using Strong Leader, webby posted this:

The proposed team has been REJECTED. There is now a brief window (I'll say 18 hours) where the use of Strong Leader is allowed, but given it is meant to be used now, you may not discuss in-thread whether to use it.

I'm inclined to believe it was an honest mistake, but still. I'm slightly annoyed.

[Adam H]

Angua analysis:

Spoiler:

-First resistance game, go on first mission with GoP, Adam, and TMG because they are future team leaders. Slight town for decent suggestion. Link with GoP, Adam, or TMG
-Doesn’t care about the Adam/Rigwarl argument Neutral
-Suggests GoP, rigwarl, BF, lataro, and TMG for mission 4. Not Adam H. KACEOY should go to someone on the mission team. Neutral. Link with GoP, rigwarl, BF, lataro, TMG
-Didn’t suggest herself because other people should decide on that. Neutral
-Thinks Adam is scummy, wants t1mm to use strong leader. Seems to understand how NC could be bad in spies hands. Suggests Angua, rigwarl, and one other. Slightly scummy – she understands how spies can abuse NC, which might indicate that she was told how to use it in spy chat. Weak link with t1mm/infina/lataro (strong leader suggestion). Link with rigwarl.
-Doesn’t trust t1mm. Neutral.
-Doesn’t know how many spies there are. Doesn’t assume GoP is spy. Doesn’t understand why M4 is easier to pass than M1. Neutral. I don't know if it’s honest confusion or she’s just unsure if town knows the number of spies. Link with GoP.
-Tells us not to give her ITS because she’s going away for 4 days. Neutral.
-FoS rigwarl for accusing GoP based on M1 results. Neutral. Link with GoP.
-Suggests lataro and t1mm, with ITS used randomly. Neutral. Link with lataro and t1mm.
-Thinks Adam is scum. Lataro is hard to read but she’s sympathetic. Neutral. Weak link with lataro.
-Will accept any team without Adam on it. Slightly scummy. She’d accept a GoP+Silknor+Lataro team?
-Is sad that Lataro suspects her. Thinks t1mm should hold on to Strong Leader so that he can use it later when we have more info. Neutral.
-Suggests Angua, t1mm, and maybe BF. Neutral. Link with t1mm, weak link with BF.Q
-Doesn’t trust rigwarl, tells infina not to reject mission because they’ll lose. Scummy - she seems to know infina is town.

Conclusion: Slight scum, with the caveat that I’ll probably find everyone scummy if do this. Hopefully I'll have time to do this with someone else (probably BF) soon so I can compare.

Links, determined mostly by mission team suggestions. 1 point for regular links, 0.5 for weak links (it's pretty subjective, but I tried to make a system before seeing the results):
GoP - 4
Lataro - 3
T1mm - 2.5
TMG - 2
rigwarl - 2

My gut says that GoP and lataro are probably the scummiest, so this doesn't make Angua look great. I don't want to draw any conclusions until I look at somone else though.

[Lataro]

I misread that then. I thought he was allowing an 18 hour window for it to be used, and that it could be discussed.

As far as teams go, we have no choice here, if Angua is scum, it'll fail, if they are resistance, then it has a chance. I think I like the idea of Angua not submitting a team and getting an RNG team, since I believe the team will be toast with Angua as a leader anyway.

Vote: No Team

[Adam H]

BoomFrog analysis:

Spoiler:

-Dismisses the optimal town strategy. Suggests rejecting GoP’s mission so that someone else can propose the mission team. Agrees that M4 is better than M1. Gives good applicable number crunching for how much we should trust the KACEOY results (if lataro is town, there’s a 20% chance that t1mm spy). Doesn’t trust Adam. Neutral.
-Says M1 makes KACEOY useless. Offers suggestion of doing M1 and giving KACEOY holder the option of using it. Slight town.
-Says we shouldn’t try for an “optimal” mission team, because there is no such thing. We’re better off analyzing everyone’s proposals. Thinks rigwarl is towniest. Suspicious of Adam for trying to get GoP’s team rejected, suggests GoP, rigwarl, lataro, Silknor, and Angua (and maybe t1mm). Rigwarl receives Strong Leader, Lataro gets KACEOY. Neutral. This is a tough one. I like the first part, but then he is suspicious of me for trying to get GoP’s mission rejected – which he suggested a couple posts ago. Link with GoP, rigwarl, lataro, silknor, angua.
-Says that mission leaders should want to go on the mission team and everyone should be OK with that. Says he’ll accept whatever GoP proposes because he doesn’t want Adam or TMG to decide mission. Scum. Adam and TMG were going to have a chance to decide the mission no matter what, just depended on which one. An unconditional accept is really bad play. Link with GoP.
-If GoP is scum, then lataro is probably scum and t1mm is probably town. If GoP is town, then lataro is probably spy. Feels best about t1mm. Suggests giving NC and OC to t1mm. ITS to Angua, and Angua, t1mm, and t1mm’s checked person go on M1. Town. Link with t1mm and Angua.
-Points out that spies did not have stowaway. Says that we should hand out OC randomly, and points out how ITS is used. Town.
-Says that a town result with OC should only be trusted 50/50, while a spy result can be trusted for the most part. Agrees that we should assume GoP is scum. Slight town.
-Says t1mm is most likely resistance, GoP is most likely spy. T1mm’s towniness doesn’t mean that Lataro is town. Neutral. Weak link with t1mm.
-Says Adam did good distributing powers, but still probably spy. Wants team to be Angua, t1mm, infina. Neutral. Link with Angua, t1mm, infina.
-OC target is more likely town than t1mm. Neutral.
-Says that rigwarl should be trusted more than Angua and TMG. Neutral. Weak link with rigwarl.
-Doesn’t trust t1mm as much anymore. Pushes for TMG, rigwarl, Angua. Neutral. Link with TMG, rigwarl, Angua.
-Agrees with “that mission team”. Not clear whether he means rigwarl/t1mm/angua or BF/t1mm/Angua. Slight scum for vagueness, impatience, and trusting t1mm again without explanation. Link with t1mm and Angua.

Conclusion: Pretty decently town, though he seems more disinterested recently.

Links:
5 Angua
3.5 t1mm
2.5 rigwarl
2 GoP

2 of those Angua links are with Angua as team leader, but still if BF is scum we should be leery of Angua and t1mm, IMO.

[rigwarl]

I don't have too much to add to my previous team suggestion, but two things I want to point out:

@_infina_, confirming what Angua said- you cannot reject this team.

@Lataro,

I think I've made it so that in general it doesn't favour resistance to instruct the team leader not to propose a team, but in case I haven't, please don't attempt to game the system in this way. I'm sure I can think of punishments.

[Angua]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure webby would screw us over and not do a random team if we went for it on purpose.

At Adam's analysis:

Doesn’t trust rigwarl, tells infina not to reject mission because they’ll lose. Scummy - she seems to know infina is town.

I'm a bit confused about this, surely when making this sort of statement we are assuming that the other person is either town or pretending to be town. If they reject the mission, they aren't even remotely acting in the interests of town.

Will accept any team without Adam on it. Slightly scummy. She’d accept a GoP+Silknor+Lataro team?

This was because I was going away so had to leave conditionals with the mod. I told the mod that I'd accept anything without Adam H on it.

[Adam H]

Thank you to rigwarl for reading the rules...

Doesn’t trust rigwarl, tells infina not to reject mission because they’ll lose. Scummy - she seems to know infina is town.

I'm a bit confused about this, surely when making this sort of statement we are assuming that the other person is either town or pretending to be town. If they reject the mission, they aren't even remotely acting in the interests of town.

OK... I guess that's fine... But IMO a townier response would have been something like "infina, rejecting this mission is about the scummiest thing you could possibly do". Instead, you sounded like a scum pretending to be a helpful town.

I told the mod that I'd accept anything without Adam H on it.

Well that's a bad condition so my "slightly scummy" stays.

[_infina_]

The best interests of town do not have t1mm on the team. my statement was conditional. keep t1mm off the team and you will likely get an accept from me.

[Angua]

The best interests of town do not have t1mm on the team. my statement was conditional. keep t1mm off the team and you will likely get an accept from me.

Town can't reject missions 3 times in a row without forfeiting a mission.

[Adam H]

It's worse than that - if we reject this mission then we lose the entire GAME.

But I can think of a reason why we shouldn't talk about this, so... let's just see what happens, yah?

[t1mm01994]

_infina_, would you particularly mind to explain why my devil out of the box was scummy? All I read on that so far was seemingly blind OMGUS rage. Or explain what should happen with the next mission to make your NC effective, because as for now, you just made it /very/ clear that you're not too fond of me this game.

[Angua]

I think I'm running out of time, given that the deadline time is set to Australia. Therefore, I'm going to go with:

Propose mission: 1.

Proposed Team Member 1: Angua
Proposed Team Member 2: rigwarl
Proposed Team Member 3: t1mm01994

[webby]

The vote on this mission is a waste of time as any resistance member will accept or they are playing against their win condition (as they lose if this team is rejected). I meant to put it in the rules at the start that such a team will be automatically accepted. Unless anyone has any objections, I'll give you 12 hours where you can still post (because you didn't know it was going to go straight to night) then go to mission phase. Mission phase will then last 12 hours.

Any powers to be used during or immediately following the mission, please PM to me. Spies on the team, if any, please tell me whether you PASS or FAIL the mission. Default is FAIL.