2 of 4 Newbie Game OVER! Town Flawless Victory!

[Lataro]

2of4
Setup name

The name of the setup is derived from the possible roles in the setup, where seven roles are predetermined, and 2 of 4 possible roles are chosen at random to fill the last two setup slots. The seven predetermined roles are 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop (originally a Roleblocker), and 5 Vanilla Townies. The 4 possible roles out of which 2 are chosen are: Sane Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, or a sixth Vanilla Townie. There is no chance of duplication in these last two roles.
Variations

There are six possible variations to this setup:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Doctor.

Player List:

1. Carey
2. wam
3. Snark
4. KrO2
5. fearless
6. mostlynormal
7. Matt96
8. wingedocelot
9. Chickenfish

Rules:

1. You may only talk about this game in this thread and in an appropriately named spoiler in the Discussion Thread. If you are not playing this game, you may not post in this thread.
2. You may not play to lose. This will be dealt with at the mod's discretion (expect an immediate modkill if you play against your faction).
3. Do not lurk. If you no longer want to or can't play, ask the mod as soon as possible for a replacement. If there are no replacements, you must keep playing until a replacement arrives or the mod decides to modkill you.
4. You may not edit your posts.
5. You may not post your role PM, or quote verbatim from it. You may paraphrase.
6. Votes and questions must be posted in

bold, on a newline.

You may also ask questions to the mod in PM.
7. You may not post game content in this thread after you are dead. (You may post death flavor.) If you are lynched, you are dead when the hammer is cast. Else, you are dead when the mod says so.
8. You may not post game content at night. It is night when hammer is cast or when the aforementioned deadline is reached.
9. The mod's decisions are final.

I have picked a setup from the above possibilities, and am in the process of sending role PMs, please do not post until I declare the start of Day One. All roles function as described in their appropriate mafia scum wiki links. Since this has taken this long already to start, I have decided to forgo getting a co-mod involved in order to speed this along and get the game going. Flavor will be fairly random. No role info will be given on death, only alignment info.

[Lataro]

The town had seen some rough times, and this time, it would be no different. The mafia was back, people were dying, and there was only one answer, wholesale discount on rope, and a trip to the park...

All Roles are now out! Day One starts now!

Nine players alive, five to form a majority lynch!

Deadline is about this time next week, give or take.

[Chickenfish]

Vote: fearless
Lack of fear = obv scum

[wingedocelot]

Yay! My first ever mafia game.
Very exciting.
FoS:Chickenfish for being afraid. Townfolk (like Simba) laugh in the face of danger.

[Chickenfish]

Yay! My first ever mafia game.
Very exciting.
FoS:Chickenfish for being afraid. Townfolk (like Simba) laugh in the face of danger.

And then get surrounded by hyenas and barely make it out alive! If they were afraid of that graveyard, they'd have avoided their near death.
Also, if you're so unafraid, why FoS? Where's the vote?

[wam]

So we only have two scum, which seems on the low side to me, which should make this easier. By day 2 we should have a better idea of which town power roles we have. Have just read the part in the rules where we don't get told roles just alignment.

Anyway

Vote: Chickenfish

For voting without a good reason and not providing any content!

FoS:wingedocelot for being excited, this is serious buisiness!

Also at some point I will spell your name wrong, I apologise in advance for that.

[Chickenfish]

So we only have two scum, which seems on the low side to me, which should make this easier. By day 2 we should have a better idea of which town power roles we have. Have just read the part in the rules where we don't get told roles just alignment.

Anyway

Vote: Chickenfish

For voting without a good reason and not providing any content!

FoS:wingedocelot for being excited, this is serious buisiness!

Also at some point I will spell your name wrong, I apologise in advance for that.

That underlined sentence is great. 2 different levels of irony! (not in the strict definition of the word I guess. Still enjoyable though.)

[wingedocelot]

Also, if you're so unafraid, why FoS? Where's the vote?

As far as I can tell early voting = act of aggression = suspicion = lynching, and I like playing.

[wam]

Well early on day 1 most votes tend to get thrown around without anyjustification or long lasting impact. (look at me pretending I know what im doing in only my 4th ever game, especially since non of the others have finished!)

While I remember

Unvote

As to content, Im not sure what to write, rolespec seems pointless as the options are limited and fairly obvious to all. One thing I will say, is with not being told peoples roles on death we have to watch out for false claiming by scum.

[Chickenfish]

As far as I can tell early voting = act of aggression = suspicion = lynching, and I like playing.

Early voting = let's get convo going. If early voting does somehow lead to a lynch, I guarantee the person who hammered is scum

As to content, Im not sure what to write, rolespec seems pointless as the options are limited and fairly obvious to all. One thing I will say, is with not being told peoples roles on death we have to watch out for false claiming by scum.

There's almost nothing to write. It's RVS! (Random Voting Stage, or Random Vote Selection, depending on who you talk to).
Sure it's weird, but do some crazy things! Vote for people, accuse people of things that might be there but probably aren't. Let's get some reactions happening!
Good point on the watching out for falseclaiming. Very powerful tool for scum in lategame in this setup.
Lataro: Do scum have daychat, or do we not get to know this?

[wingedocelot]

Ok, well I have a question/theory.
Are the roles distributed by the mod or randomly?
Because if the mod has anything to do with it, wouldn't it be likely that one (or both) of the scum would be very experienced players? Having 2 newbies (and possibly any newbies) as scum could make for a very quick easy game for town I assume, as we don't know what we are doing yet.

[Chickenfish]

Ok, well I have a question/theory.
Are the roles distributed by the mod or randomly?
Because if the mod has anything to do with it, wouldn't it be likely that one (or both) of the scum would be very experienced players? Having 2 newbies (and possibly any newbies) as scum could make for a very quick easy game for town I assume, as we don't know what we are doing yet.

Misdirection - nice!
Safe to assume they were distributed randomly, methinks.
Unsafe to assume new players on the forum are new players to the game.

[fearless]

I'm too cute to be scum. Srs.

[Mostlynormal]

Hmm. FoS everybody except wam for screwing around without posting any content. Then FoS myself for being a hypocrite because I've got no idea what kind of content to post D1 in an open newbie game.

Where in the rules does it say that wam? I just scoured Lataro's entire first post and I can't see it. Am I missing something obvious?

Welcome to mafia KrO2 and wingedocelot! Hope you enjoy your first game.

[wingedocelot]

Thanks for the welcome Mostlynormal! In return, I think this is what you are looking for:

No role info will be given on death, only alignment info.[/b]

Very last line of first post.

[Snark]

Actual FoS: wingedocelot for the misdirection.
Slight FoS: fearless for the world's most contentless post.

This is going to be an interesting game. With an open setup, there's no rolespec. And not having role-reveals upon death leaves it fairly open for scum to false claim in the end game.

One simple way to combat false claims is for townie power roles (actually I think it only matters for the cop) to role-claim if they're CERTAIN that they're about to be lynched, and there's no way to get out of the lynch. That way, the next morning we'll know their alignment and know they were telling the truth. Obviously lynching a cop would suck, but at least there'd be no false-cop claims for the rest of the game. This would only prevent a small portion of false-claims, but it would help at least a little bit.

Where in the rules does it say that wam? I just scoured Lataro's entire first post and I can't see it. Am I missing something obvious?

Welcome to mafia KrO2 and wingedocelot! Hope you enjoy your first game.

It's the last sentence in Lataro's post. Also, I believe it's careyhammer's first game as well.

[Mostlynormal]

Thanks. All that reading and I skimmed over the last sentence.

Also sorry for missing you Careyhammer. Welcome to the game!

[fearless]

fos snark for being a dick o_O

[KrO2]

Thanks Mostlynormal. I've played in real life, but never on a forum before. This should be interesting.

The only actual game-related information I can think to say is some numbers. Since we don't know how many power roles we have.
If you are a vanilla townie:
The probability, from your point of view, that we have two good guys with powers is .4545. That's because Bayes, unless I messed up embarrassingly.
If you are one of the town players with powers, first of all, go you. Also, the probability that there's another one is two thirds (again, unless I messed up. Not being infallible is annoying.)
I haven't tried to post probabilities on this from the mafia's point of view because they can do their own math.
These numbers probably aren't important, but I was all proud of myself for having something to say on day 1, so I said it.

I don't like the idea of voting this early (is it really going to promote discussion if everyone knows it can be ignored safely?), but I guess it's a convention here. I'm going to not vote until I see someone to vote at, just because I like not following conventions when I'm not sure how well they work.

[KrO2]

Edit: I was assuming everything was random, but it said random in the wiki link so I think that's OK.

[Chickenfish]

First things first:

I'm too cute to be scum. Srs.

Slight FoS: fearless for the world's most contentless post.

fos snark for being a dick o_O

Trying to break your record?

Hmm. FoS everybody except wam for screwing around without posting any content. Then FoS myself for being a hypocrite because I've got no idea what kind of content to post D1 in an open newbie game.

So you find yourself scummy, or you didn't actually mean the FoS? Also, if you think there's been nothing but screwing around without content, look closer.

This is going to be an interesting game. With an open setup, there's no rolespec. And not having role-reveals upon death leaves it fairly open for scum to false claim in the end game.

One simple way to combat false claims is for townie power roles (actually I think it only matters for the cop) to role-claim if they're CERTAIN that they're about to be lynched, and there's no way to get out of the lynch. That way, the next morning we'll know their alignment and know they were telling the truth. Obviously lynching a cop would suck, but at least there'd be no false-cop claims for the rest of the game. This would only prevent a small portion of false-claims, but it would help at least a little bit.

Here there be scum. For serious.
"Concerned" about scum falseclaim initially, but then saying only the cop needs to claim who they are before lynch. Secondly, the implication that you would ever lynch an unCCed cop claim without anything else to go on is ridiculous. The underlined bit - yes, it's obvious. Very obvious. So obvious you wouldn't lynch the cop just to dodge the falseclaim.
Unvote
Vote: Snark

[Mostlynormal]

Your logic is really flawed. You're not considering that from the town's point of view, the cop could be falseclaiming for all they know. A counterclaim would give it more certainty, sure, but it's easy to imagine a scum at L-1 falseclaiming out of desperation and being lucky enough to claim something that's not in the game. If they made it to L-1 in the first place, it's much more likely (from our point of view) that they're scum than that they're a power role. I think the point was just that a townie claiming a power role would at least give us the information of their role after they're dead.

In fact, any power roles out there should not out themselves by counterclaiming if they see a falseclaim about to be lynched anyway. Only counterclaim if the falseclaim is likely to be beleived.

So I'm going to put the second serious vote down now:

Vote: Chickenfish

for saying that we should not lynch somebody just because they claim.

[Lataro]

Scum have night chat only.

[Snark]

Thank you Mostlynormal for that burst of logic.

Yes, a scum who's about to be lynched will most likely try to false-claim a power role because there's only half a chance that that power role is actually in the game. And yes, a townie shouldn't counter-claim and out themselves unless that claim is likely to be believed.

Also, I said "I think it only matters for the cop" because it wasn't obvious to me how scum could false-claim doctor/jailkeeper later to town's disadvantage, and I wasn't sure whether it's to town's disadvantage for scum to know when the doctor and/or jailkeeper are out of the game.

Also I never suggested that we lynch a cop to lynch the false-claim. I never, ever said that.

Vote: Chickenfish
for putting words in my mouth, for saying that someone who power-claims shouldn't be lynched.

[Mostlynormal]

Unvote

Sorry, but I get a little nervous when people bandwagon on my pressure votes.

[Snark]

Sorry for making you nervous. I wanted to put pressure on him myself. After all, he did vote for me.

[Chickenfish]

In fact, any power roles out there should not out themselves by counterclaiming if they see a falseclaim about to be lynched anyway. Only counterclaim if the falseclaim is likely to be beleived.

So I'm going to put the second serious vote down now:

Vote: Chickenfish

for saying that we should not lynch somebody just because they claim.

I agree PRs shouldn't CC a lot of the time. It doesn't change the fact that a PR claim that has a chance of being true should be tested, and avoided being lynched.

Also, I said "I think it only matters for the cop" because it wasn't obvious to me how scum could false-claim doctor/jailkeeper later to town's disadvantage, and I wasn't sure whether it's to town's disadvantage for scum to know when the doctor and/or jailkeeper are out of the game.

All false-claims of town are harmful to town, it's the whole basis of the game. If mafia can appear towny by claiming one if the PRs, it makes it harder for us.

Also I never suggested that we lynch a cop to lynch the false-claim. I never, ever said that.

I never said you said that. I said you implied that a lynch would probably still go ahead, but if we were wrong at least it dodges a falseclaim. That's a mindset I can't imagine town being in regarding our best chance of winning.

Vote: Chickenfish
for putting words in my mouth, for saying that someone who power-claims shouldn't be lynched.

First bit - mudslinging.
Second bit - I stand by it. Without solid evidence that the claim is false, you're nuts to lynch a claimed PR, especially cop.

Unvote

Sorry, but I get a little nervous when people bandwagon on my pressure votes.

Why so timid? If I somehow got lynched from there then the hammerer is scum, and at least one of the 2nd and 3rd last is.

Sorry for making you nervous. I wanted to put pressure on him myself. After all, he did vote for me.

Are you familiar with the concept of OMGUS? And how it's something a towny should never ever do?

[Snark]

Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the town cop, Town cop cops a townie
Day 2 - Nothing interesting happens
Night 2 - Mafia kills the cop
Day 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
OR
Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the cop and kills the cop
Day 2 or 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
OR
Day ? - Mafia falseclaims cop (and we happen to be in a game setup without a cop which has a 50% chance)

According to your statement, we'd be nuts to lynch the false-claimer without solid evidence. With no way of obtaining solid evidence in any of the cases above, mafia wins.

In this game setup, it's not nuts to lynch someone claiming a town power role.

[KrO2]

Thank you Mostlynormal for that burst of logic.
Also, I said "I think it only matters for the cop" because it wasn't obvious to me how scum could false-claim doctor/jailkeeper later to town's disadvantage, and I wasn't sure whether it's to town's disadvantage for scum to know when the doctor and/or jailkeeper are out of the game.

Also I never suggested that we lynch a cop to lynch the false-claim. I never, ever said that.

One simple way to combat false claims is for townie power roles (actually I think it only matters for the cop) to role-claim if they're CERTAIN that they're about to be lynched, and there's no way to get out of the lynch. That way, the next morning we'll know their alignment and know they were telling the truth. Obviously lynching a cop would suck, but at least there'd be no false-cop claims for the rest of the game.

That...does sound like you're saying that player should be lynched. I could see how it might be read as saying that they would probably be NK'ed, but you keep talking about lynching them and assume they'll be dead in the morning.

I don't see how it isn't obvious that scum falseclaiming hurts town, if they can get away with it. It's a get-out-of-lynch free card. And if they know that doctor or jailkeeper is out, they can feel safe killing whomever they want without worrying about the towniest players being protected. More information for scum is always bad.

Question for Chickenfish: When we have someone at one vote to lynch and they claim a power role, what do you say we should do? This will happen; it's almost certain. We either lynch them or don't, either one seems pretty questionable. Keep in mind that there's an even chance that no counterclaim is even possible, and depending on the circumstances it might be a bad idea for the real player to call them on it even if it is possible. You said a claim should be tested, but how do you test something like that? Suppose they claim anything that isn't cop; that one does seem testable. Also, Snark, what's your answer to this?

[KrO2]

SUPER BONUS EXTRA POST:
Mostlynormal, you voted for Chickenfish seriously and then said it was a pressure vote when Snark agreed with you? Now I'm considering the possibility that you're trying to frame Snark for bandwagoning. Although I guess someone who's played before can clear this up by saying whether it's usual to label a pressure vote as "not a pressure vote." It's very possible that I'm overreacting, but I didn't want to not comment, just in case.

[matt96]

. You said a claim should be tested, but how do you test something like that? Suppose they claim anything that isn't cop; that one does seem testable.

How is a cop claim testable, the only thing that could be tested for is if it is a vanilla town false claiming, as based on my read though of the rules, the only town cop power is an alignment cop, and as there are no independents or third party, Mafia already know everyone's alignments by process of elimination, how did you think testing a cop claim would work?

I have been ninja'd, because I was interrupted in the middle of typing my post, but my opinion on what KrO2 said above is something I have seen brought up multiple times, a pressure vote really doesn't work that often when it is specifically labeled as a pressure vote (It's not very effective...), but I don't think it is usual to take the opposite of that (labeling a pressure vote as not a pressure vote trying to make sure It's super effective!)

[Mostlynormal]

Well, I consider a pressure vote a serious vote. It's a vote with the beleif that the votee is likely to be scum, unlike a joke vote. It's just not a vote with the intention of lynching someone, at least not immediately.

Unvote

Sorry, but I get a little nervous when people bandwagon on my pressure votes.

Why so timid? If I somehow got lynched from there then the hammerer is scum, and at least one of the 2nd and 3rd last is.

Well, it just never quite sits right with me. Maybe in this case it's unfair to Snark, considering he's the one under attack by you in the first place. But in general it makes me feel like my vote is getting hijacked and is going to be interpreted as something different than I meant it. So maybe in this case I reacted too quickly. Sorry

I agree PRs shouldn't CC a lot of the time. It doesn't change the fact that a PR claim that has a chance of being true should be tested, and avoided being lynched.

How exactly do you propose to "test" a claim in this game? The point is, if we shy away from lynching claimed power roles, scum will use that to their advantage. I understand caution--if it was a weak lynch in the first place, if their claim seems perfectly reasonable, then maybe. But usually if someone makes it to L-1 it's because they were acting scummy, and the most likely people to act scummy aren't town power roles, they're scum.

How is a cop claim testable?

What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.

[Snark]

Question for Chickenfish: When we have someone at one vote to lynch and they claim a power role, what do you say we should do? This will happen; it's almost certain. We either lynch them or don't, either one seems pretty questionable. Keep in mind that there's an even chance that no counterclaim is even possible, and depending on the circumstances it might be a bad idea for the real player to call them on it even if it is possible. You said a claim should be tested, but how do you test something like that? Suppose they claim anything that isn't cop; that one does seem testable. Also, Snark, what's your answer to this?

It's not possible to test a cop-claim. The only counter example is if someone else counter claims cop. Scum will lie to get out of a lynch. It's almost guaranteed. And like you said, KrO2, there's a 50% chance that the role doesn't exist in the game and therefore can't counterclaim. On later days, it's also possible that the role did exist in the game but got killed already. So yeah, scum is gonna claim a power townie role quite often when it's getting close to deadline and they're the clear leader in lynch votes. Also, chocolate town will most likely claim their true role if they're about to be lynched. The only people who shouldn't power claim are vanilla townies. But then considering that only vanilla townies won't claim, that makes scum likely not to claim in order to pretend to be a vanilla townsperson.

All that to say this: I most likely wouldn't unvote for someone just because they power role claimed without a counter claim. They'd have to also be 1. Not acting super scummy to begin with, and in most cases 2. have some more information from prior days to prove their story.

Like MN has said at least twice now, people who are going to be lynched, are being lynched because they've been acting scummy. An un-counter-claimed power claim doesn't prove anything.

What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.

Agreed. And if they claimed doctor and had successfully targeted someone, they can say who they protected to see if they turn up town later. And if they claim bodyguard and think they prevented a kill, they should claim who they targeted the night that a kill didn't go through.

[Chickenfish]

Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the town cop, Town cop cops a townie
Day 2 - Nothing interesting happens
Night 2 - Mafia kills the cop
Day 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
OR
Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the cop and kills the cop
Day 2 or 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
OR
Day ? - Mafia falseclaims cop (and we happen to be in a game setup without a cop which has a 50% chance)

According to your statement, we'd be nuts to lynch the false-claimer without solid evidence. With no way of obtaining solid evidence in any of the cases above, mafia wins.

In this game setup, it's not nuts to lynch someone claiming a town power role.

Firstly, the underlined can't happen if my understanding of role cop is correct. Like any investigative role, the result would be given once the night is over, not before scum are required to submit their NK.
In terms of "solid evidence" - keep in mind that someone appearing scummy is in fact evidence against their town claim. However, on D1 (and quite often on later days depending on how close to Mylo/Lylo we are), lynches can be fairly weak, or a day has dragged on so long that you get to the point of lynching just for info. Lynching a claimed PR in these situations is terrible. There's a sliding scale in terms of how good lynches are for town, and many points of that scale say "don't lynch the PR"
Also, anybody who claims doesn't immediately get a free pass for the rest of the game. Other than a confirmed cop RESULT of town, nobody should ever be able to do anything that has you 100% convinced they're town. It just means going through with the lynch at that time is more often than not the wrong play.

Question for Chickenfish: When we have someone at one vote to lynch and they claim a power role, what do you say we should do? This will happen; it's almost certain. We either lynch them or don't, either one seems pretty questionable. Keep in mind that there's an even chance that no counterclaim is even possible, and depending on the circumstances it might be a bad idea for the real player to call them on it even if it is possible. You said a claim should be tested, but how do you test something like that? Suppose they claim anything that isn't cop; that one does seem testable. Also, Snark, what's your answer to this?

Before day 3 it's tough. The only test you can really employ is seeing if they live through the night, and then give them another day worth of talking to convince you. In the case of the cop - that gives them one more investigation result to share on the day after if they for some reason are still appearing scummy. A claimed doctor/jailer is definitely harder, but asking them to list their previous targets and why they targeted them is a good way to tell whether someone's being genuine or not.
After N2, there's a chance doc/jailer has had some success that they can share, acting as a cop to clear the towny they saved (or potentially RBed scum in the case of jailer... but that specific discussion isn't worth getting into until the time comes). After N2 with a cop, if they've only got towny results, giving them another night to attempt to investigate but probably die is all you can do. But once again if there's a legitimate case against them or they just seem like the most strategic lynch comes into it.
Once again, claim =/= free pass. If we can afford it though, giving them another night worth of action and the following day for discussion need to happen.

How is a cop claim testable, the only thing that could be tested for is if it is a vanilla town false claiming, as based on my read though of the rules, the only town cop power is an alignment cop, and as there are no independents or third party, Mafia already know everyone's alignments by process of elimination, how did you think testing a cop claim would work?

Well yeah, a cop claim is only testable if they've gotten a scum result. If it's too early for that, mafia probably can't risk not killing just for the sake of wine, and will NK them anyway.

It's not possible to test a cop-claim.

2. have some more information from prior days to prove their story.

Cool. Taking a shot at me/trying to get town to be happy to lynch cop. Complete contradiction to your initial statement once the attempt at towny-talk comes around.

Like MN has said at least twice now, people who are going to be lynched, are being lynched because they've been acting scummy. An un-counter-claimed power claim doesn't prove anything.

1) Where did he say this?
2) Opinions of your own would be appreciated.
3) Someone has to have been acting pretty damn scummy for me to be happy risking lynching cop. Sure, that level of scum exists, but rarely are lynches on the first few days of that level.

Agreed. And if they claimed doctor and had successfully targeted someone, they can say who they protected to see if they turn up town later. And if they claim bodyguard and think they prevented a kill, they should claim who they targeted the night that a kill didn't go through.

For clarification - "bodyguard" = "jailer"?
But yeah, power claims can be tested and scrutinised. As I said, and as you said the opposite.

Well, it just never quite sits right with me. Maybe in this case it's unfair to Snark, considering he's the one under attack by you in the first place. But in general it makes me feel like my vote is getting hijacked and is going to be interpreted as something different than I meant it. So maybe in this case I reacted too quickly. Sorry

(sorry for the inaccurate chronology... made sense to address posts in this order by topic)
Snark attacking me because I'm attacking him is as scummy as it gets. It's completely unproductive to OMGUS.
As for the rest of it - as I said, there's no possibility of me getting lynched from that vote, unless scum want to just give the game away.. If as the day goes one everyone decides I'm the best lynch, you can either say "I don't agree, here's why" or "my vote's staying on, here's why". If your vote was for pressure, Snark's vote was a good thing for you.
Implying Snark outwardly admitting his vote was OMGUS is ok, then acting overly concerned about how your vote will be perceived... If Snark ever flips scum everyone should remember this.

What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.

I almost began to type more of a rant about how claiming that would be ridic, but in this setup maybe not. 1-for-1ing at worst (claim cop with scum hit and pray for a doc role) with such a small scum population may not be too bad, especially with a role cop on the scum side who may find and kill cop anyway. Definitely needs more discussion I think.

[Chickenfish]

EBWOP: I'm so bad at the preview button. The bottom half of my post should look like this (sorry about the wall of text)

It's not possible to test a cop-claim.

2. have some more information from prior days to prove their story.

Cool. Taking a shot at me/trying to get town to be happy to lynch cop. Complete contradiction to your initial statement once the attempt at towny-talk comes around.

Like MN has said at least twice now, people who are going to be lynched, are being lynched because they've been acting scummy. An un-counter-claimed power claim doesn't prove anything.

1) Where did he say this?
2) Opinions of your own would be appreciated.
3) Someone has to have been acting pretty damn scummy for me to be happy risking lynching cop. Sure, that level of scum exists, but rarely are lynches on the first few days of that level.

Agreed. And if they claimed doctor and had successfully targeted someone, they can say who they protected to see if they turn up town later. And if they claim bodyguard and think they prevented a kill, they should claim who they targeted the night that a kill didn't go through.

For clarification - "bodyguard" = "jailer"?
But yeah, power claims can be tested and scrutinised. As I said, and as you said the opposite.

Well, it just never quite sits right with me. Maybe in this case it's unfair to Snark, considering he's the one under attack by you in the first place. But in general it makes me feel like my vote is getting hijacked and is going to be interpreted as something different than I meant it. So maybe in this case I reacted too quickly. Sorry

(sorry for the inaccurate chronology... made sense to address posts in this order by topic)
Snark attacking me because I'm attacking him is as scummy as it gets. It's completely unproductive to OMGUS.
As for the rest of it - as I said, there's no possibility of me getting lynched from that vote, unless scum want to just give the game away.. If as the day goes one everyone decides I'm the best lynch, you can either say "I don't agree, here's why" or "my vote's staying on, here's why". If your vote was for pressure, Snark's vote was a good thing for you.
Implying Snark outwardly admitting his vote was OMGUS is ok, then acting overly concerned about how your vote will be perceived... If Snark ever flips scum everyone should remember this.

What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.

I almost began to type more of a rant about how claiming that would be ridic, but in this setup maybe not. 1-for-1ing at worst (claim cop with scum hit and pray for a doc role) with such a small scum population may not be too bad, especially with a role cop on the scum side who may find and kill cop anyway. Definitely needs more discussion I think.

[KrO2]

What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.

I almost began to type more of a rant about how claiming that would be ridic, but in this setup maybe not. 1-for-1ing at worst (claim cop with scum hit and pray for a doc role) with such a small scum population may not be too bad, especially with a role cop on the scum side who may find and kill cop anyway. Definitely needs more discussion I think.

Out of all that post, this part jumped out at me. How would it not be a good idea? Even assuming there's no protection coming, it's just a question of who's more important to their respective sides. And one for one, even if it's our only cop, would have to be good for town. I was about to start going off about how *not* claiming in that case would be stupid, but I suppose there could be cases in other games where the cop might be more important. So I'm not going to.
I think that, even if that claim isn't the straight-up dominant strategy, if it's even close we should probably agree to follow it. That's to make false cop claims more difficult. If town has agreed to claim immediately after finding scum, then any scum who want to pretend to be cop would have to pretend to have been getting nothing but town results until whenever it is that they false claim. They could still claim doctor or jailkeeper of course, but we might as well impose an extra constraint on them if they decide to pretend to be cop.

[wingedocelot]

Snark attacking me because I'm attacking him is as scummy as it gets. It's completely unproductive to OMGUS.

According to my logic, the aggression Snark and Chickenfish have shown against each other indicates that probably at least one of them is scum because such escalations of arguments do not help town. But on the other hand, both should know better and may just be having fun in a newbie game.
Can any experienced (preferably town) player beside Snark or Chickenfish give me their thoughts on that?

I almost began to type more of a rant about how claiming that would be ridic, but in this setup maybe not. 1-for-1ing at worst (claim cop with scum hit and pray for a doc role) with such a small scum population may not be too bad, especially with a role cop on the scum side who may find and kill cop anyway. Definitely needs more discussion I think.

And as for the 1 scum for 1 cop scheme, it seems like in such a town majority it would be worth it. Anything that gets rid of one of the mafia is worth it. It would mean the last mafia would have to make it all the way to the last 2 players undetected. I imagine that would be pretty difficult - even if we were to lynch randomly.
Also, if we ask our cop to tell us immediately if they find scum, then any scum who false claims will only survive one more day and the town killed in that scenario will (most likely) not have a power.

Must be careful though that scum later in the game could false claim cop, kill off partner if that partner was already looking suspicious and become a 'confirmed townie.'

[Chickenfish]

What ocurred to me was if the cop had a scum result they could claim it and we could test by lynching their scum result first, then the claimed cop if they lied. But since a cop should probably claim such a result first thing anyway (right? We ought to be clear on this before we go into night), a cop that claims to have a scum result that they just happened not to share yet is probably scum grasping at straws.

I almost began to type more of a rant about how claiming that would be ridic, but in this setup maybe not. 1-for-1ing at worst (claim cop with scum hit and pray for a doc role) with such a small scum population may not be too bad, especially with a role cop on the scum side who may find and kill cop anyway. Definitely needs more discussion I think.

Out of all that post, this part jumped out at me. How would it not be a good idea? Even assuming there's no protection coming, it's just a question of who's more important to their respective sides. And one for one, even if it's our only cop, would have to be good for town. I was about to start going off about how *not* claiming in that case would be stupid, but I suppose there could be cases in other games where the cop might be more important. So I'm not going to.
I think that, even if that claim isn't the straight-up dominant strategy, if it's even close we should probably agree to follow it. That's to make false cop claims more difficult. If town has agreed to claim immediately after finding scum, then any scum who want to pretend to be cop would have to pretend to have been getting nothing but town results until whenever it is that they false claim. They could still claim doctor or jailkeeper of course, but we might as well impose an extra constraint on them if they decide to pretend to be cop.

This really was just me thinking out loud. MN was completely right initially, and you are right here, in that cop should claim as scum hit if they get one. It does so much for us.

Snark attacking me because I'm attacking him is as scummy as it gets. It's completely unproductive to OMGUS.

According to my logic, the aggression Snark and Chickenfish have shown against each other indicates that probably at least one of them is scum because such escalations of arguments do not help town. But on the other hand, both should know better and may just be having fun in a newbie game.

The thing is, from an early point in time Snark's argument was "you voted me so I'm gonna vote you", whereas mine has been on actual reads. I was really just pressure voting when I detected something a bit off, and look at Snark's reaction...
While I always have fun playing mafia (no matter how my tone comes across!), my voting for Snark is completely serious.

Can any experienced (preferably town) player beside Snark or Chickenfish give me their thoughts on that?

Oops...

Must be careful though that scum later in the game could false claim cop, kill off partner if that partner was already looking suspicious and become a 'confirmed townie.'

True that. Insta-town read.

[KrO2]

According to my logic, the aggression Snark and Chickenfish have shown against each other indicates that probably at least one of them is scum because such escalations of arguments do not help town. But on the other hand, both should know better and may just be having fun in a newbie game.
Can any experienced (preferably town) player beside Snark or Chickenfish give me their thoughts on that?

I would like to agree with you here; that would help us narrow it down pretty well. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we can say that. It was my first thought when they started going after each other, but the argument started as a legitimate strategy disagreement. After that I kind of expected them to escalate to attacking the other person regardless of alignment, because that's one of the many annoying things about humans. Bottom line is, while it's certainly more likely that one of them is scum than it would be for an arbitrary two players, they could still be two town.

[Snark]

Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the town cop, Town cop cops a townie
Day 2 - Nothing interesting happens
Night 2 - Mafia kills the cop
Day 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
OR
Night 1 - Mafia role cop finds the cop and kills the cop
Day 2 or 3 - Mafia falseclaims cop
OR
Day ? - Mafia falseclaims cop (and we happen to be in a game setup without a cop which has a 50% chance)

According to your statement, we'd be nuts to lynch the false-claimer without solid evidence. With no way of obtaining solid evidence in any of the cases above, mafia wins.

In this game setup, it's not nuts to lynch someone claiming a town power role.

Firstly, the underlined can't happen if my understanding of role cop is correct. Like any investigative role, the result would be given once the night is over, not before scum are required to submit their NK.

I'm not saying that they would find the cop, and then kill them. I'm suggesting that mafia might NK and role-cop the same person during the night to keep track of who's out of the game, and whose role they can safely false-claim.

Like MN has said at least twice now, people who are going to be lynched, are being lynched because they've been acting scummy. An un-counter-claimed power claim doesn't prove anything.

1) Where did he say this?
2) Opinions of your own would be appreciated.
3) Someone has to have been acting pretty damn scummy for me to be happy risking lynching cop. Sure, that level of scum exists, but rarely are lynches on the first few days of that level.

1) In this post and in this post. Did you even try looking for it?
2) I share those opinions. It's why I referenced them.
3) Can you please explain why you previously said this:

Without solid evidence that the claim is false, you're nuts to lynch a claimed PR, especially cop.

Do you count "acting pretty damn scummy" as "solid evidence"?

Unvote: Chickenfish
Because as much as I disagree with him about the degree to which power-claims should be trusted, it's possible that we just have a difference of opinions. Yes it's possibly scummy that CF believes giving the claimer another night alive for information is a good idea, but I don't believe he claimed that this is best in all situations.
If CF wants to keep focusing on me, he can. But I'm gonna try hunting scum in other areas now.
We'll probably have disagreements before endgame about how to interpret power-claims if they come up, but we can deal with them as they happen as every situation will be different. The only thing really important to note now is that town power roles should claim if they're pretty certain they'll be lynched otherwise.

Can Carey, fearless, and matt please chime in with more content?