Shadowrun Mafia - Kill all Humans? - Mafia wins

[lynx]

BoomFrog, is there any anti-claiming bastardry in this game?

No Comment

Thanks for your assistance! We'll just go off this and win, kthxbai

[New User]

I'm against a mass icon claim. I do agree with DBC and UniqueScreenname in that Snark could benefit from icon claiming though.

I was thinking about the 13th icon. Possibilities I have come up with include:
>Someone has two icons. Perhaps one is a decoy.
>A mod-controlled character.
>A semi-mod-controlled "Artificial Intelligence" that reacts a certain way under certain conditions. For example, BoomFrog could have the AI set up to automatically kill someone who attacks the icon (such as Black IC) or to automatically send a PM to someone if certain conditions are met, etc. The moderator wouldn't exactly be controlling the character, just making it act according to pre-programmed instructions. Maybe I thought about this too much.
>A complete red herring that does nothing, only exists to waste someone's turn if powers target it.

[Snark]

BoomFrog, is there any anti-claiming bastardry in this game?

No Comment

Thanks for your assistance! We'll just go off this and win, kthxbai

What precisely is this comment saying? Are you pro mass-claim or just messing around?

[UniqueScreenname]

I will not participate in a mass claim. I suppose if everyone else decides to, I will have little choice, but still, as of now, I say no.

[UniqueScreenname]

I'm going to bed now. Hopefully not everybody playing is in the same timezone as me so when I get up the conversation will have continued.

[KrO2]

I think I'm probably against a mass claim. I don't know of any reason specific to this game why it would be a bad idea, but I can't see that information being more useful to town than to scum. Snark might be an exception, depending on exactly which powers he's immune to and which powers affect icons. If those overlap perfectly then he should claim, if they don't then it depends on what the exceptions are.

I do think that we should consider mass claiming later, though. Right now we're pretty much guessing at the relationship between character and icon, and while the guesses seem pretty good to me, nobody seems to have been absolutely sure that they're right. Once we know more about how this works, then (depending on what we find out) maybe we should reopen this question, but for now I think we should not claim.

[lynx]

BoomFrog, is there any anti-claiming bastardry in this game?

No Comment

Thanks for your assistance! We'll just go off this and win, kthxbai

What precisely is this comment saying? Are you pro mass-claim or just messing around?

It's called sarcasm, he didn't exactly help much there. I'm marginally anti-mass-claim for now until we know what's going on and are sure that BF doesn't have some sort of mechanism built in that's going to screw us all over.

As for the extra MI, I wouldn't be surprised if one was a dummy or story element. It'd be interesting to see if everyone had one, wouldn't recommend claiming for now again though just in case.

[eculc]

I'm against a mass-claim; mass-claiming would make it easier for scum/anti-town to harm town; without mass-claiming, I'd guess that at least a few anti-town would hold off from using their abilities if they don't know who they're going to hit.

[Adam H]

I'd guess that at least a few anti-town would hold off from using their abilities if they don't know who they're going to hit.

That doesn't seem right to me. Something weird like a power that backfires if used on the wrong player name would make sense with what you're saying, but I've never seen such a power except maybe with cults and town powers.

I'm somewhat familiar with BF's views on themed games and mass-claiming, and I'm guessing that the only anti-mass-claim mechanics are 1) the closed set-up, 2) roles/abilities don't correspond to scumminess, and 3) the mission icons don't correspond to scumminess (eg. Johnny Cash is not less scummy than Troll Santa).

But that said, I'm not going to claim my icon or advocate doing so. Let's just play this normally. I'm also not sure if scum or town is more likely to be hackers, so I won't advocate Snark to claim his icon either.

[KrO2]

I'm going to disagree with Adam and say that I think Snark should probably claim his icon. Presumably town outnumbers scum, so even if scum are more likely to be hackers, there'd have to be a large margin for there to be more scum hacking powers. And from the opening flavor, where we were all working together and then some team members double-crossed the rest, I don't see why hacking should be more likely on the scum side. Of course, Snark's opinion is the only one that counts here.

[Snark]

I've decided not to claim. I'm scared of so many people reassuring me that attacks won't be based on my MI. I'm guessing there are scum lying to try and obtain an easy target.

In other news, I suspect KrO2 to be scum. He wanted clarification on exactly which actions would and wouldn't work against me, which is info scum would need to know how to use their NK.

FoS: KrO2 for that.

[flarpfreak]

If there is a possibility of hackers on both sides, then we also have to consider the possibility that there are hack immune MIs on both sides as well

[UniqueScreenname]

I've decided not to claim. I'm scared of so many people reassuring me that attacks won't be based on my MI. I'm guessing there are scum lying to try and obtain an easy target.

In other news, I suspect KrO2 to be scum. He wanted clarification on exactly which actions would and wouldn't work against me, which is info scum would need to know how to use their NK.

FoS: KrO2 for that.

For me, this logic doesn't work. If he was scum and had hacking powers that he could use, he would know which ones to avoid. There would be no need to ask.

[New User]

I've decided not to claim. I'm scared of so many people reassuring me that attacks won't be based on my MI. I'm guessing there are scum lying to try and obtain an easy target.

You should claim your icon because it is immune to attack anyway. Unless you have reason to believe that there are cyber actions that are not hacks, and your icon is only immune to come cyber actions, not all of them. I have no reason to believe that.

In other news, I suspect KrO2 to be scum. He wanted clarification on exactly which actions would and wouldn't work against me, which is info scum would need to know how to use their NK.

FoS: KrO2 for that.

Are you referring to this quote by KrO2?

Speaking of Snark, can you clarify what you mean by "hacks"? My guess would be you're referring to cyber actions, but when you explained why you claimed that it made it sound as if you just meant all powers. So I thought I might as well ask. Unless answering it would be bad strategy for whatever reason, in which case feel free to ignore the question.

I also have no reason to believe that scum can't simply vote to kill a player at night, just like in any other mafia game. Although I admit, that diminishes the significance of Armor and Resistance stats. The mafia's only ability might be to know who is on their team and to chat at night.

[Snark]

I also have no reason to believe that scum can't simply vote to kill a player at night, just like in any other mafia game. Although I admit, that diminishes the significance of Armor and Resistance stats. The mafia's only ability might be to know who is on their team and to chat at night.

And how would you know mafia's abilities? Seriously, why do you think that your "guess" is a fact?

Can you tell us any of the dynamics concerning the mafia NK?

If the answer to that question is no, I'm not going to take a chance.

[New User]

I also have no reason to believe that scum can't simply vote to kill a player at night, just like in any other mafia game. Although I admit, that diminishes the significance of Armor and Resistance stats. The mafia's only ability might be to know who is on their team and to chat at night.

And how would you know mafia's abilities? Seriously, why do you think that your "guess" is a fact?

It's just a guess. I'm guessing that the mafia can vote to kill someone at night, because this is a game of mafia and that's normal for a game of mafia. I'm also guessing that they can't vote to kill at night, because by simply voting to kill and not attacking us, and by attacking I mean going to bring our "Health" stat to zero and giving us a chance to use "Armor" and "Resistance", then the only reason for Health, Armor, and Resistance to exist is so the town can attack each other. Basically, if the mafia can simply vote to kill someone, that would make them overpowered IMO. I don't have enough experience with BoomFrog to know if he would make the mafia overpowered like that.

[DaBigCheez]

I've decided not to claim. I'm scared of so many people reassuring me that attacks won't be based on my MI. I'm guessing there are scum lying to try and obtain an easy target.

In other news, I suspect KrO2 to be scum. He wanted clarification on exactly which actions would and wouldn't work against me, which is info scum would need to know how to use their NK.

FoS: KrO2 for that.

For me, this logic doesn't work. If he was scum and had hacking powers that he could use, he would know which ones to avoid. There would be no need to ask.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Are you talking about knowing which MI's to avoid, by virtue of knowing who his scummates are (would be, whatever, it's a hypothetical)? Because that's not what's actually being talked about - we're talking about which actions are blocked by Snark's immunity. That is, are all Cyber actions also Hacking actions, and are they all required to be targeted at an MI, or are there some Hacking actions that can be targeted at Players, or are there some Cyber actions which are not Hacking actions and thus are not blocked by Snark's immunity. (I'm discounting for now the possibility that Hacking actions can be non-Cyber; I'm guessing any Physical action that was also considered a Hacking action would also be targeted at a Player (something along the lines of physically rewiring their shit?), and given the opposition of Tech and Magic I don't really see a Magical Hacking action as a real risk.

And Snark - I find it likely that some "attacks" would be targeted at your MI, but I don't think they'd be the lethal ones. I'd expect the nightkill to be something Physical or Magical - either just shooting someone in the head (I dunno, 3 damage? 5? Infinity?) or shooting them in the head with Magic (same, but possibly Resistance relevant if it's damage-based). Most likely it's things like roleblocks and redirects that would be aimed at an MI instead (bringing down systems or messing with HUD), as far as attacks are concerned - and I consider the possibility of an investigative role wasting an action on your icon more worrying than losing the chance of wasting a scumblock. If you consider those to be the other way around, or don't agree with my worries that your claim's already made you as vulnerable as it can, I understand; it's ultimately your decision.

[KrO2]

I've decided not to claim. I'm scared of so many people reassuring me that attacks won't be based on my MI. I'm guessing there are scum lying to try and obtain an easy target.

In other news, I suspect KrO2 to be scum. He wanted clarification on exactly which actions would and wouldn't work against me, which is info scum would need to know how to use their NK.

FoS: KrO2 for that.

For me, this logic doesn't work. If he was scum and had hacking powers that he could use, he would know which ones to avoid. There would be no need to ask.

No, I think that logic doesn't work, because it's not entirely clear exactly which actions count as hacks. Scum would want to know precisely what Snark is immune to so they can avoid wasting those actions.

Other possible responses to the FoS include the fact that when I was talking about the extent of the immunity I wasn't asking for information so much as saying that whether he should claim depends what it covers. That's true whether or not he publicizes the information. I think I did ask the first time, but I hadn't fully thought through whether it might be a bad idea.

Also, one of the other premises might not be true, because "that being info scum need to know how to use their NK" is true only if their NK is something that is or might be a "hack." I have no information saying that that is the case, and I was kind of assuming DBC was correct that the kill would happen in meatspace instead of cyberspace. Maybe some flavor text at the start of D2 or something will confirm this one way or the other. So they probably do not need to know the specifics of this immunity if they do decide to try to kill you.

And finally, it's not entirely obvious that stating that information would be more bad than good. Assuming you've been told any more about the nature of this than anyone else has, similar logic applies to that as to claiming the MI, just to a lesser extent. (i.e., not saying it would probably waste more town actions than scum ones.) It's just that in this case it only applies to the actions that might or might not be hacks instead of all hacks that might be directed at your icon.

So it's possible that answering either of those questions is a bad idea, but it's also possible that it isn't. But since it's not obvious, that leaves the decision up to you, which I think is a good thing because it means we can close that question.

Aaand I got pretty significantly ninjad, but I'll post it anyway.

[New User]

And Snark - I find it likely that some "attacks" would be targeted at your MI, but I don't think they'd be the lethal ones. I'd expect the nightkill to be something Physical or Magical - either just shooting someone in the head (I dunno, 3 damage? 5? Infinity?) or shooting them in the head with Magic (same, but possibly Resistance relevant if it's damage-based). Most likely it's things like roleblocks and redirects that would be aimed at an MI instead (bringing down systems or messing with HUD), as far as attacks are concerned - and I consider the possibility of an investigative role wasting an action on your icon more worrying than losing the chance of wasting a scumblock.

I said this earlier. It was you who tried to caution me that I shouldn't assume that Icon attacks aren't lethal. Now you've taken a contradictory stance. Can you explain this convenient change of opinion?

[fshfood]

All I know if my role is pretty dependent on figuring out who people are, but I can't speak for others.

This is enough for me to think that mass claiming is a bad idea ... if one person has a role/powers that are dependent upon matching people up, it is likely there are others along these same lines.

[DaBigCheez]

And Snark - I find it likely that some "attacks" would be targeted at your MI, but I don't think they'd be the lethal ones. I'd expect the nightkill to be something Physical or Magical - either just shooting someone in the head (I dunno, 3 damage? 5? Infinity?) or shooting them in the head with Magic (same, but possibly Resistance relevant if it's damage-based). Most likely it's things like roleblocks and redirects that would be aimed at an MI instead (bringing down systems or messing with HUD), as far as attacks are concerned - and I consider the possibility of an investigative role wasting an action on your icon more worrying than losing the chance of wasting a scumblock.

I said this earlier. It was you who tried to caution me that I shouldn't assume that Icon attacks aren't lethal. Now you've taken a contradictory stance. Can you explain this convenient change of opinion?

Emphasis added to show why it isn't a "contradictory" stance. To quote my earlier post (emphasis added for the part you're most likely referring to):

lynx - I don't think a mass icon-claim would be a good idea. Even if we can't be hurt directly through our icons, I'd lay good odds that scum has some nasty trickses up their sleeves if they can link the two together (I think it might be Death Note mafia I'm thinking of - I remember a scum faction having powers along the lines of 'if you can accurately state target's rolename as well as username, they are killed bypassing doctors', and wouldn't be surprised if there's similar but probably toned-down unpleasantness for someone whose icon and username you've linked). The main reason I'd consider it acceptable for Snark is that he's presumably vulnerable in the physical world anyway, so already has a target on his head - that doesn't apply to the rest of us, and without his claimed hacking-invulnerability we'd be opening ourselves up to any more conventional cyber-attacks as well.

And my still-earlier post just in case that's the one you meant:

Snark - given that your Icon's hack-immune, but your body presumably isn't bullet-immune, I'd recommend claiming your Matrix Icon to avoid having town waste actions on it - you've already made yourself a target for the doublecrossers by claiming a hack-immune icon, and their kills would presumably be targeted at you rather than your icon (thinking of your icon as your computer/avatar), so you may as well at least get the pros of that claim rather than just the cons. If we had fully-robotic players (which I think are pretty rare?), they may be vulnerable to a direct hacking assault, but I'm not really sure how that would play out in terms of game mechanics, so it's most likely that Cyber stuff is through the Icons.

My reference to the Death Note mafia is as a possibility - however, as stated, I think it'd be most likely to be toned down (i.e. not an unblockable kill) if such a mechanism is in the game. What I said in my most recent post was what I consider "most likely" - that roleblocks and redirects (possibly others) are the things likely to be aimed directly at an MI, either as a Death Note-esque thing requiring a 'link' or just straight-up aimed at an MI. Most likely actually-damaging vectors through a MI would be Black IC, which is primarily defensive.

An action which attempted to target Snark through his MI would almost certainly be a Hacking action, and for anything short of a truly unblockable kill (which seems over the top to me) it seems like it'd then be blocked. However, for the rest of us (hence why the Death Note stuff was talked about in my post about whether to MASS-claim our MIs), it'd open us up to any nasty Hacking actions that require a link, and more direct targeting of roleblocks/redirects even if they don't need one (scum being able to target them at a player they wants out of the picture, rather than targeting an MI and hoping). That's why I think it's alright for Snark to claim his Icon, but still believe it's a bad idea for the rest of us.

[New User]

New User - most of that seems reasonable, and I believe it's explicitly stated that Resistance is there to defend against magical attacks, which would be kinda pointless if there was no magic in the game I would note however that the assumption powers used on Icons can't hurt us may be dangerous - Black IC is a nasty, nasty thing and can straight-up kill the person behind the icon. (Note: This would make me more nervous about having Snark claim his icon, but I'm guessing that if anyone has control of Black IC it'd be a Hacking action, and in any event it's more analogous to a firewall than an attack program, so is probably more like a PGO power than a kill.)

Actually it's this post I was referring to.

[DaBigCheez]

Then read the second half of it, my justification's literally right there My "Black IC is more likely a PGO than an attack power" reasoning used in that post still stands.

[UniqueScreenname]

I've decided not to claim. I'm scared of so many people reassuring me that attacks won't be based on my MI. I'm guessing there are scum lying to try and obtain an easy target.

In other news, I suspect KrO2 to be scum. He wanted clarification on exactly which actions would and wouldn't work against me, which is info scum would need to know how to use their NK.

FoS: KrO2 for that.

For me, this logic doesn't work. If he was scum and had hacking powers that he could use, he would know which ones to avoid. There would be no need to ask.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Are you talking about knowing which MI's to avoid, by virtue of knowing who his scummates are (would be, whatever, it's a hypothetical)? Because that's not what's actually being talked about - we're talking about which actions are blocked by Snark's immunity. That is, are all Cyber actions also Hacking actions, and are they all required to be targeted at an MI, or are there some Hacking actions that can be targeted at Players, or are there some Cyber actions which are not Hacking actions and thus are not blocked by Snark's immunity. (I'm discounting for now the possibility that Hacking actions can be non-Cyber; I'm guessing any Physical action that was also considered a Hacking action would also be targeted at a Player (something along the lines of physically rewiring their shit?), and given the opposition of Tech and Magic I don't really see a Magical Hacking action as a real risk.

No. I was thinking that if scum had hacking powers, it would be in their description and they would know which abilities would and wouldn't work. So asking would be unnecessary.

There's something that's been bothering me, though. The idea of mass claiming is so horrible. I literally cannot think of a positive. It would only open people up to being hurt. Perhaps there's a doctor that can heal one of us through MIs, but the thing about the doctor is that he can't really know who the mafia is gonna NK anyway, so knowing who the MIs belong to won't help all that much. So since I can only associate bad things with the idea, I have become suspicious of the person who suggested it, feeling safe if it came to happen and looking forward to the intel.

FoS: lynx

[KrO2]

At the time that lynx said that, I'm not sure that he knew he was the first to suggest it. We had been dancing around the question of whether we each have one of those, and then each of us started saying that we did. It's quite a jump from "my icon is on this list" to "my icon is X," but I can *kind of* see how he might have thought we were "edging toward a matrix icon claim." As for the possible upsides, well, I can think of a few (mostly contingent on information we don't have) but I won't say them in case lynx is scum. If he actually was just trying to trick us into claiming, I might as well not tell him what to say. I will also note that (again contingent on information we don't have) I think the upsides are unlikely to outweigh the downsides.

[BoomFrog]

Can you tell us any of the dynamics concerning the mafia NK?

Closed Setup

[lynx]

It's quite a jump from "my icon is on this list" to "my icon is X," but I can *kind of* see how he might have thought we were "edging toward a matrix icon claim."

People were stating whether or not they wanted to reveal their icons personally, and the only safe way to do this (ie. without the danger of mafia knowing who has power roles etc) is mass claiming as far as I can tell. It would also flush out the mafia as they may not know what to claim. Of course, I'm not still suggesting this by any means: it'd be dangerous. I'm taking you through the logic I used in writing that post.

As for the possible upsides, well, I can think of a few but I won't say them in case lynx is scum. If he actually was just trying to trick us into claiming, I might as well not tell him what to say. I will also note that I think the upsides are unlikely to outweigh the downsides.

I can also think of a few: what I've already written. I agree that the upsides are unlikely to outweigh the downsides, which is why I remain slightly anti-claim.

Sorry if that looks defensive there on its own, I have morning lectures to go to. More content later!

[lynx]

EBWOP: Change 'without the danger' to 'with less danger'. It's still a dangerous gamble.

[t1mm01994]

So, I've been busy a bit, but gladly, I still have my vote!
Vote: KrO2
There ya go.

[lynx]

That was quick! Care to explain your reasoning as he looks fairly innocent to me? A bit quick to accuse me but it's only over a disagreement about claiming.
I don't know when people normally vote in these games but it doesn't look like there's significant evidence on anyone to be doing so. Is it always like this D1?

PS. Didn't realise quite how slow this game would be! This must be why people play lots of games at the same time!

[New User]

In this particular game setup, I expect to see people waiting to vote until after their allowed daily cyber action has been resolved. That would especially hold true if cyber actions are investigative in nature, as has been speculated by a couple of us already. And yes, these games can go slowly. Everyone has a different schedule, and presumably a forum game is a low priority in someone's life, so for many players it's simply log in, read any posts that have been made since yesterday, make a post, and log out until tomorrow.

[eculc]

well, tim. what's that vote for? I'm in agreement with lynx here; I'm not seeing DBC as scummy...unless you have other information. want to share?

[Snark]

Tim never does this, that I've seen.

I'm gonna call jester or scum playing the jester. He knows better than to make his first post in a game free of content and his second post have a vote with no reasoning behind it.

I'd support KrO2's lynch, but I obviously have a huge problem with the manner in which Tim voted.

Does anyone with Shadowrun knowledge see a jester as a possibility? Obviously BF could get creative and make whatever role he wanted to - I'm just curious if it's extremely likely or extremely unlikely.

FoS: Tim

[New User]

Nothing I can think of makes it likely. But anything's possible. And I agree it's not like Tim to do something so odd. I've lurked other mafia games enough to see that.

[KrO2]

Um...what? What just happened?
I'm not surprised to see Tim voting prematurely; that's not out of character. But usually it'd come with some kind of a reason so it can cause discussion. Here, I don't know what I'm supposed to be defending against. Whatever he's doing, he's presumably doing it on purpose. And I can't think of any situation where that would be friendly to town. So, yeah, FoS.

Can I request that if anyone has investigative cyber actions they use them on me or Tim? That coming before a lynch is potentially really powerful.

[Snark]

Can I request that if anyone has investigative cyber actions they use them on me or Tim? That coming before a lynch is potentially really powerful.

This is obvious. If KrO2 is scum, then he's a likely godfather.

Or he could see himself going down D1 (though one FoS and 1 unjustified vote shouldn't be enough to make him panic) and he would like to out a cop before dying. Though a 1/1 trade is presumably bad for scum. This alternative is unlikely.

Or he could just be a helpful townie. Because the comment at face value is definitely a good one.

[KrO2]

I missed that New User had posted the same thing earlier. Since we have the nonstandard setup, I thought it might actually need saying, since it's possible that someone might have to pick one of multiple cyber actions, where only one is investigative. Also, for all I know by the time that deadline comes around, there might be someone else who's the target of the hour, and I'd selfishly want to be cleared anyway.

Oh, and wouldn't the godfather thing be limited by which investigative roles are being used? It would really suck (for me) if I were mafia and overconfident that I could fool cops, only to be caught by a tracker or something.

[fshfood]

I'm a little confused by Tim's vote. I don't know anyone well enough to know what is in or out of character for them. However, it seem strange to have a vote without justification.

FOS Tim

I'm also inclined to be suspicious of lurkers ... I'm not sure if cameroni101 has not been on or just doesn't want to say anything .. so until I hear either way

FOS cameroni101

[Adam H]

Tim never does this, that I've seen.

That's a joke, right? Tim always votes to gauge reactions.

[Snark]

Tim never does this, that I've seen.

That's a joke, right? Tim always votes to gauge reactions.

I've seen him FoS people and offer early votes with at least some reasoning. A completely unjustified vote however, I have not come across.