[S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Game Over - Town Win!

For your simulated organized crime needs.

Moderators: jestingrabbit, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
_infina_
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
Location: R'lyeh

[S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Game Over - Town Win!

Postby _infina_ » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:41 am UTC

Mod: infina
Bastardry: None
Type: Open Queenmaker (Kingmaker where majority of roles are female)


Players:
Spoiler:
1. UniqueScreenname (yay for not needing to know the flavor!) Jedite
2. wam Tsukino Usagi/Sailor Moon
3. Adam H (female pronouns only please!) - Minako
4. lynx (looking forward to trying a small game) Luna
5. matt96 (what is an "Open" game?) Queen Beryl
6. ahammel (^ one where all the rules are known from the beginning) Naru
7.KrO2 (Why not?) - Makoto


Rules:
Spoiler:
1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread EXCEPT IN THE DISCUSSION THREAD UNDER A SPOILER.
2. Please stay on topic.
3. Don't lurk through the whole game; if you need to drop out, TELL ME. Really bad lurkers risk REPLACEMENT/MODKILL
4. If you aren't part of the game, please post in the discussion thread under a spoiler for outside analysis.
5. Once I say that it's nighttime, do not post in the thread. Nighttime occurs at deadline, even if I am not around.
6. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," which reveals no information.
7. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM. Paraphrasing is fine.
8. You may not edit your posts. This is to preempt the possibility of cheating by sending messages to other people and then editing them out.


How to play:
Spoiler:
1. Discussion may occur during the day on who would be the best person to lynch.
2. There is no voting. The queen chooses who will die each day.
3. The Queenmaker chooses at night who will be the next queen.
4. The same person may not be chosen as queen twice in a row.
5. The day ends when the Queen has chosen who to execute.
6. At night, the Negaverse can assassinate one player.
7. Queenmaker may not claim.


Role PMs (Not all roles are used):
Spoiler:
You are the evil Queen of the Negaverse, Queen Beryl! Your many subtle schemes to drain the energy from useless humans keep failing due to the uselessness of your lieutenants and those stupid Sailor girls. So, it’s time for Plan B: kill everyone in sight and THEN resume your infallible schemes.

You are in possession of a nightkill. You also have unfrozen your Lieutenant, Jedite, to aid you, but he was an incredible failure last time so you won’t especially care if he gets killed. [PLAYERNAME] is Jedite, and you may communicate with him at any time. Please CC the mods on all PMs.

You win when all town players have been eliminated.

You are the evil henchman of the Negaverse, Jedite! You made brilliant plans to drain the energy from stupid humans, which worked perfectly until those stupid Sailor girls appeared. You had a brilliant plan for dealing with them, too, but your impatient Queen decided to freeze you in a giant crystal before you could try it. You're still kind of pissed off about that, to be honest. It wasn't fun. At. All.

At any rate, she's unfrozen you now, and her new plan is to kill everyone in sight, which seems reasonable enough to you. [PLAYERNAME] is Queen Beryl, and you may communicate with her at any time. Please CC the mods on all PMs.

You win when all town players have been eliminated.

You are Luna! You are a magical cat, and quite possibly the smartest person here. You shall need every bit of that intelligence, you fear, for the evil minions of the Negaverse are attacking! Only the Princess can stop them... but... er... it's been a few thousand years since you've seen the Princess, you see, and... oh, all right, you don't quite remember what she looks like. But a clever cat like you shall surely get it eventually.

You are a Queenmaker. Every night, you may choose who will become the next Queen. Please PM the mods with your D1 choice.

You win with the Town.

You are Tsukino Usagi! You love eating, you hate school, and also you're kind of the Defender of Justice, Sailor Moon. You're not really good at that, though. All your friends are much better fighters than you. Sometimes you have dreams that you're a princess... man, if you were a Queen, you bet you could kick some royal butt!

But you're not, so you kind of tend to fall on your royal butt every time you try. Siiiigh... it isn't faaaiiiiir--! Waaaaaah!!

To win, you must become Queen before the end of the game. You will gain 1/2 win if this happens. You gain the other half with town.

By day, you are ordinary student Chiba Mamoru. But when trouble strikes, you use your powers to become the snazzily suited superhero, Tuxedo Mask! The ladies love it. Anyway, you don't really know what's going on here; you're just looking for the Silver Crystal, and you're pretty sure whoever wins this thing will have it.

You win if you survive to the end of the game.

You're Naru, Usagi's friend! You have no idea what the hell is going on here. Man, this town is getting weird these days.

All you want is to not get killed, and for all those bad people to die like animals. They killed that guy who maybe liked you, dammit. You're still a little bitter! Unfortunately you have no way to make this happen.

You win with the town.

You are Mizuno Ami! You're quite possibly the smartest student in town, so you're too busy with your schoolwork during the day to do anything other than exercise your legal franchise (that is, discuss). But in the face of the evil threatening the city, you have set aside your nights to patrol as defender of justice, Sailor Mercury!

You win with the town.

You are Hino Rei, badass shrine maiden! Your pervy old grandfather keeps you busy sweeping things and tending the fires and keeping schoolgirls from calling the cops on him during the day. But at night, you ditch his ass and turn into Sailor Mars, warrior of justice!

You win with the town.

You are Kino Makoto, defender of justice! By day, you cook awesome food and beat the crap out of bullies. By night, you turn into Sailor Jupiter and do pretty much the same thing, except with more magic lightning.

Everyone else seems to be pretty busy handling the evil guys, so you've been spending your night taking care of all the other assholes around town. And okay, sometimes you get distracted by that guy who looks like your old boyfriend... wait, what? Oh, yeah. Anyway, you're not too distracted to perform your civic duty and discuss!

You win with the town.

You are Aino Minako, hot new transfer student! Someday you're going to be the hottest new idol singer in Japan. For now, you're the hottest new warrior of justice in Japan, Sailor V, which will do for now.

Your cat Artemis has totally wandered off after telling you you should probably start calling yourself "Sailor Venus" now-- huh, apparently those newbies aren't just ripping you off after all. By night, you've been trying to track him down, but it's hard in this new city-- you haven't been able to get anything else done at all. It's all you can do to pay attention and discuss during the day...

You win with the town.
Last edited by _infina_ on Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:41 am UTC, edited 8 times in total.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

User avatar
ahammel
My Little Cabbage
Posts: 2135
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:46 am UTC
Location: Vancouver BC
Contact:

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby ahammel » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:01 am UTC

Confirming here. Also: wow nostalgia.
He/Him/His/Alex
God damn these electric sex pants!

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby KrO2 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:13 am UTC

Confirming.

User avatar
UniqueScreenname
Something something Purple. Stop asking.
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:11 pm UTC
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby UniqueScreenname » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:04 am UTC

Confirm Confirm Confirm
PolakoVoador wrote:Pizza is never a question, pizza is always the answer.
poxic wrote:When we're stuck, flailing, and afraid, that's usually when we're running into the limitations of our old ways of doing things. Something new is being born. Stick around and find out what it is.

User avatar
wam
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:08 am UTC
Location: South England

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby wam » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:37 am UTC

Confirm

And off to read the wiki as im flavour blind again!
Come join us playing mafia signup here

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby lynx » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:50 am UTC

Also confirming, doesn't say anywhere that we have to though.
Not sure how important flavour knowledge is considering it's an open game, and no time right now to go over strategy.

More later this evening then!

User avatar
matt96
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:55 pm UTC
Location: A suburb of Boston

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby matt96 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:01 pm UTC

Confirm,

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby Adam H » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:00 pm UTC

I got a role pm, and I agree to partake in this mafia game. That is all I am willing to say at this juncture.
-Adam

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby Adam H » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:43 pm UTC

Can Luna the queenmaker be killed? If so what happens then?
-Adam

User avatar
ahammel
My Little Cabbage
Posts: 2135
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:46 am UTC
Location: Vancouver BC
Contact:

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby ahammel » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:12 pm UTC

lynx wrote:Also confirming, doesn't say anywhere that we have to though.

_infina_ wrote:Roles are out, please confirm in thread.


Strategy option 1: take unofficial votals, have the Queenmaker lynch the winner and basically treat this like a vanilla game. Boring, I know. Can we get any advantage from deviating from this plan?
He/Him/His/Alex
God damn these electric sex pants!

User avatar
_infina_
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
Location: R'lyeh

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby _infina_ » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:30 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Can Luna the queenmaker be killed? If so what happens then?

If the Queenmaker is executed, a new Queenmaker arises out of the loyal villagers and chooses a Queen for the next day. If the Queenmaker is killed at night, a new Queenmaker similarly arises but the old Queenmaker's final choice is used for the next day.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

User avatar
_infina_
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
Location: R'lyeh

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby _infina_ » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:31 pm UTC

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE GAME HAS YET TO START.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Pregame

Postby lynx » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:28 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:
lynx wrote:Also confirming, doesn't say anywhere that we have to though.

_infina_ wrote:Roles are out, please confirm in thread.

Oops!

User avatar
_infina_
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
Location: R'lyeh

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby _infina_ » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:01 pm UTC

My daughter, I will miss you. This I must now do to ensure a chance of peace for the world. Forgive me Princess Serenity.

The battle between The Negaverse and The Moon Kingdom had come to a head. Queen Beryl and her four lieutenants had invaded the heart of the moon kingdom. Queen Serenity used the most powerful weapon available to her, the Silver Crystal, pushing back the forces of The Negaverse, and transporting those on the moon into the earth's future. The use of the Silver Crystal had come at a great price, and Queen Serenity died. The only one who was allowed to remember any of the events that transpired was given explicit instructions.

Find Princess Serenity.

Now in the earth's future, Luna had found six who could possibly be the princess. Unknown to Luna, Queen Beryl had been able to work some of her own influence into the original spell when it was cast. That influence had lead to the seven of them being trapped in a room, without any way to identify each other, except for Beryl and her Lieutenants, who had been preparing for this day. That influence also compelled Luna to choose one person each day to wield the powers of the Moon Kingdom to execute one of the people present.

Day 1 Queen: UniqueScreenname (You end the day with EXECUTE: <PLAYER>)

It is now Day 1. Deadline is at 1600 UTC on June 18th 2012CE.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby KrO2 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:21 pm UTC

First things first. We should probably use ahammel's strategy 1, at least to start. Then if scum becomes the queen and kills someone other than the electee, they have some heavy-duty explaining to do. Later on, we might want to give the queen the power to ignore that, but we should probably decide ahead of time that them executing someone who didn't have the most votes would be acceptable. Possibly we should pick specific people who look scummiest and we can have their votes not count.

Also, there are seven players and eight town roles. That's presumably to stop a mass claim. But if we were to force a mass claim anyway, we would probably catch at least one scum. Maybe we should consider doing this once we have some idea of who's scummier so that we can make them claim first.

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby lynx » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:28 pm UTC

Why would we want to force the Queenmaker to claim? Seems like a pretty horrible idea IMO.
As for ahammel's idea, not entirely sure right now. Scum know all alignments and might be able to direct the kill away from their 2 out of the 7 players. Then again, anyone can be influenced and anyone can be scum so maybe it is a fair way to do it. Works fine in other games anyway! I'll sleep on it before passing judgement.

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby Adam H » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:32 pm UTC

Someone give a good reason why queenmaker should not claim. I can't think of one.
-Adam

User avatar
_infina_
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
Location: R'lyeh

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby _infina_ » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:41 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Someone give a good reason why queenmaker should not claim. I can't think of one.

MODKILL
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby Adam H » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:42 pm UTC

That's a good reason!!!!!!!! Lol.

Sorry if I missed that in the rules.
-Adam

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby Adam H » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:34 pm UTC

So to clarify, we can't claim or falseclaim any roles (even soft claiming)? Is this a rule like spoiler-reading which is just intrinsically wrong*? Or can we do it if the consequence of being modkilled is worth it? Because if we get to 2-1 then queenmaker should claim anyways.

*correct use of "intrinsically"? Oh well, you know what I mean.


ANYWAYS, I think that we should hold the Queen responsible for going against the consensus, but I don't think it would definitely be scummy. We have 2 scum (presumably) so a town Queen should trust their own judgement much more than the scum-tainted vote (2 votes go a long way when 4 is majority). Also, a town Queen should not be so afraid of being lynched for being wrong that they go against their townie judgement. So IMO going along with the vote even when you disagree with it is scummier than not.

If we truly have 2 scum with a night kill this game will be hard. Assuming a completely random lynch, and assuming scum queens won't kill scum, there's almost a 60% chance of a perfect game for scum. That ignores the cases where we lynch one scum and lose anyways. Therefore we must have content to analyze so that we get good lynches.

Math:
Spoiler:
Prob of town queen D1= 4/6 = 67%
Prob of successful lynch D1= (.67)*2/6 = 22%
Prob of mislynch D1= 78% ( 1- .22)

If D1 mislynch:
Prob of town queen D2= 50%
Prob of successful lynch D1= (.50)*2/4 = 25%
Prob of mislynch D2= 75%

Prob of consecutive mislynches= 58% (.78*.75)


What happens if Queenmaker "queens" the player who is nightkilled?
-Adam

User avatar
UniqueScreenname
Something something Purple. Stop asking.
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:11 pm UTC
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby UniqueScreenname » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:50 pm UTC

Ooh, I'm the queen. I feel very flattered. I am leaning toward agreeing with Adam to some extent (I think the word you wanted was inherently). I immediately get suspicious of people that are trying really hard to get other people to do stuff, i.e. telling the doctor who to protect, telling the cop who to investigate, telling a town vig who to kill. I don't immediately assume that person is scum, but I think it disrespects the other person's right to choose for him/herself.

That being said, I do think everyone needs to put their opinion out there, because I'm aware this is not just my decision and some people pick up on things that I won't or can't. For instance, I still can't read KrO2, so people will need to tell me if he's doing something scummy.

Anyway, FoS towards Adam. If it gets to 2-1 and the queenmaker claims, that doesn't necessarily mean that town wins. Scum could be the queen, so if the queenmaker claims, scum wins automatically.
PolakoVoador wrote:Pizza is never a question, pizza is always the answer.
poxic wrote:When we're stuck, flailing, and afraid, that's usually when we're running into the limitations of our old ways of doing things. Something new is being born. Stick around and find out what it is.

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby Adam H » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:12 pm UTC

UniqueScreenname wrote:If it gets to 2-1 and the queenmaker claims, that doesn't necessarily mean that town wins. Scum could be the queen, so if the queenmaker claims, scum wins automatically.
If scum is queen scum automatically wins whether or not queenmaker claims. Unless I'm missing something.
-Adam

User avatar
UniqueScreenname
Something something Purple. Stop asking.
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:11 pm UTC
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby UniqueScreenname » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:33 pm UTC

Yeah, that's probably right. FoS retracted.
PolakoVoador wrote:Pizza is never a question, pizza is always the answer.
poxic wrote:When we're stuck, flailing, and afraid, that's usually when we're running into the limitations of our old ways of doing things. Something new is being born. Stick around and find out what it is.

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby KrO2 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:50 pm UTC

I reread the rules and was kind of surprised to see that they didn't say the queenmaker can't make herself queen. So the queenmaker can make a guaranteed town queen once. That might be necessary if it's 2-1 and the townier (from the queenmaker's POV) has already been queen.

That made me think of something else. I think the game might be broken. I'd want to see an answer to Adam's clarification question, but this might be more urgent.

Under what circumstances are repeat queens allowed?

If it's literally never, then we might get a case where too many living players have already been queen, and the queenmaker has to give it to a scummier person. The wiki says they're usually allowed when there are five or fewer players left, but it might be different for a game this size.
Suppose we lynch a townie D1. Then scum just have to kill someone who isn't UniqueScreenname (even if she's town) and we're down to two possible non-scum queens. Five town to start with, minus one because we can't nominate US again and one because of the NK and one because of the lynch. After D2 we've run out. The same thing happens if we have a successful lynch D1 and a failure D2. If repeat queens are never allowed, scum control the kill by D3. And I don't think we can pull off a perfect game. Note that this scenario is even if the queenmaker manages to never nominate scum until it's absolutely necessary.
And I haven't forgotten the possibility that there might be a survivor instead of a townie. That just makes it worse.

I'm not too worried about having written this post, because for one thing scum would probably have thought of it anyway, but more importantly it only applies if the game is almost unwinnable.

User avatar
_infina_
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:55 pm UTC
Location: R'lyeh

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby _infina_ » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:56 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:So to clarify, we can't claim or falseclaim any roles (even soft claiming)?

The only role that is unclaimable is Luna - the queenmaker.

Adam H wrote:What happens if Queenmaker "queens" the player who is nightkilled?

They send in two choices each night, a first choice and a backup choice.

KrO2 wrote:Under what circumstances are repeat queens allowed?

The same person may not be chosen as queen twice in a row.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Only if your friends know what rhino dong smells like.

Malo mbwa mwitu

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby Adam H » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:45 pm UTC

Oh, there are 7 roles that are non-scum and non-queenmaker, enough for everyone. Infina DID think this setup through! :D

Massclaiming therefore is meaningless. Actually, it's counterproductive, because having the survivor claim is BAD for town. The survivor wouldn't be confirmed non-scum (since scum could have gotten that role to falseclaim) but scum would know that she was survivor. And survivor would want to align himself with scum since scum seem so advantaged here. So basically, I'll go ahead and claim:

I'm Chiba, survivor.


Sorry for all the questions, but I got one more if you can answer it:

How many scum are there?
-Adam

User avatar
UniqueScreenname
Something something Purple. Stop asking.
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:11 pm UTC
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby UniqueScreenname » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:30 pm UTC

I'm not sure if I understood that. You're a survivor, and you are telling everyone you don't want to help town because it is smarter for you to be aligned with scum? However, by telling everyone you want to help scum, you basically ensure you will lose. What am I missing here?
PolakoVoador wrote:Pizza is never a question, pizza is always the answer.
poxic wrote:When we're stuck, flailing, and afraid, that's usually when we're running into the limitations of our old ways of doing things. Something new is being born. Stick around and find out what it is.

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby KrO2 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:45 pm UTC

If you didn't know the number of scum, you should have waited to claim until you did. But since it's an open setup, don't we already know that it's two?

Adam claiming makes sense; I would probably have done the same thing in his position. Scum won't kill him obviously, and town has a universe to save. It doesn't really hurt us that much either, though, since we just have to make sure to never make him king (or he'll probably turn on us), and we can ignore his vote if we want to. In a normal game we'd want to lynch him so he couldn't mess with the voting, but that's not an issue here. Adam will most likely win, and nobody has a strong reason to want to stop him.

So we've got Beryl, Jedite, Luna, and Chiba who are almost definitely in this game, right? If there's only one scum that would be unfair in our favor, and there definitely can't be three. That leaves three other town roles and six possibilities. Would it be cheating to ask everyone to claim unless they are one of {Beryl, Jedite, Luna, Chiba}? There's no guarantees, but we'd probably catch one of the scum that way.

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby lynx » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:33 am UTC

And leave Luna to be nightkilled? Keeping one person as Luna will allow them to consider the game in terms of their choices as queen and their actions, whereas the mass-claim you suggested means scum would nightkill Luna that night. I don't know, I just think mass-claim is a risky business in any game, and infina did mention that there could be two of the same role. What if there are two of the same town role, if we lynch both thinking one must be scum that'd be a confirmed town loss.

I think I'm just anti-mass-claim in general, but we have to think of the whole game in context. How likely is it to help us out, and does that outweigh the costs?

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby lynx » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:35 am UTC

EBWOP: Should've checked the OP before posting, can't find where the mod said that so maybe it's not the case.

Can two players receive the same role in this game?

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby KrO2 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:56 am UTC

I don't think Luna being killed is worse than any other townie being killed. Unless there's something I'm missing, scum wouldn't even gain anything from killing her in preference to another townie. If they decide to kill her, we get another queenmaker from the other three loyal townies. If there can be two of the same role, that would sink this right away, but since the roles are specific names of characters that strikes me as unlikely.

As for how likely it is to work: Probably. It'd be random based on which guesses they make. I haven't done the math, but the most likely outcome should be that we catch one, with smaller likelihoods for both or neither.

Danger: Ordinarily, the problem with massclaiming is that it tells scum who to kill. In this case, there are no non-Luna power roles to out, and her power descends to someone else if she does get killed.

If we all claim, we could force scum to either say "I am one of those four" or say "I am [Name]" and risk an even chance of being counterclaimed. That chance is higher than even for the second scum if the first guessed safely, lower if they didn't.

I admit I didn't understand what lynx said about keeping one person as queenmaker, so there may be a downside I haven't taken into account.

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby KrO2 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:07 am UTC

I was considering running some numbers, when I realized that the better-than-even chance only applies if scum have to guess first. And we probably aren't that good. I still think we should do it if I haven't missed something, but revise the probability from "80% chance of working" down to "depends on when we ask scum." I'm still in favor because it's still a simple way of potentially catching one of them for little effort and little cost.

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby lynx » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:08 am UTC

Hmm. Maybe later then, when things are clearer and battle lines are drawn. For now though, scumhunting might be our best bet.
Hopefully US is town and will take her time over the vote to give as many people as possible time to speak.
In a small game like this a D1 scum lynch would be a major step towards winning, while a town win combined with the night-kill could be disastrous quite quickly.
Thankfully, if any queen is really really not sure she could always just vote Adam off to minimise the chance of him voting with scum later.

User avatar
KrO2
Posts: 236
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby KrO2 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:54 am UTC

If we do it it should be as soon as possible. If we wait a round, some roles get revealed. Probably some of them will be ones that we don't know about yet, and that would make it more likely that scum guess a safe one by process of elimination. The value of claims hits diminishing returns quickly, so we should use it before any roles become known. It's not a substitute for scumhunting, but it might help along with it.

Even if we're unsure of who to kill, there's no reason for town to kill Adam. Votes don't count, remember. As long as we never give him the kill, he can't hurt us at all. The simplest outcome is everyone ignores him and he wins easily. Killing him is functionally identical to a no-lynch.

Once someone else posts we can see whether there's support for massclaiming. In fact, any content at all from wam, matt, and ahammel would be nice.
For people who do want to do it: Don't show your support by claiming. Order matters.

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby lynx » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:15 am UTC

KrO2 wrote:Even if we're unsure of who to kill, there's no reason for town to kill Adam. Votes don't count, remember. As long as we never give him the kill, he can't hurt us at all. The simplest outcome is everyone ignores him and he wins easily. Killing him is functionally identical to a no-lynch.

Very true. Sorry, didn't even think about that. Seems like an easy ride for you then Adam!

I'll bow out for now though, you're right KrO2: we really need some content from everyone else.

User avatar
wam
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:08 am UTC
Location: South England

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby wam » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:38 am UTC

I honestly can't believe you guys have bought Adam Hs survivor role claim at face value.

I think that he is scum falseclaiming to try and deflect all suspicoun of himself. He then deflects all suggestions of roleclaims as it would make things harder for him.

I disagree with roleclaiming in principle just because it seems like breaking the game. Also given what Infina has said it wouldn't surprise me if there were more anti roleclaim systems in place that we realised.

vote Adam H
Come join us playing mafia signup here

User avatar
wam
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:08 am UTC
Location: South England

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby wam » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:43 am UTC

EBWOP

I also meant to add that survivor is the perfect role to falseclaim as the real survivor won't challenge it as that will probably lead to both of them being lynched which would be bad as a survivor.
Come join us playing mafia signup here

User avatar
matt96
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:55 pm UTC
Location: A suburb of Boston

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby matt96 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:57 am UTC

lynx wrote:Hmm. Maybe later then, when things are clearer and battle lines are drawn. For now though, scumhunting might be our best bet.
Hopefully US is town and will take her time over the vote to give as many people as possible time to speak.
In a small game like this a D1 scum lynch would be a major step towards winning, while a town win combined with the night-kill could be disastrous quite quickly.
Thankfully, if any queen is really really not sure she could always just vote Adam off to minimise the chance of him voting with scum later.

did lynx really just call a town win disastrous?

Vote: lynx

User avatar
lynx
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Wessex

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby lynx » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:13 am UTC

matt96 wrote:
lynx wrote:Hmm. Maybe later then, when things are clearer and battle lines are drawn. For now though, scumhunting might be our best bet.
Hopefully US is town and will take her time over the vote to give as many people as possible time to speak.
In a small game like this a D1 scum lynch would be a major step towards winning, while a town win combined with the night-kill could be disastrous quite quickly.
Thankfully, if any queen is really really not sure she could always just vote Adam off to minimise the chance of him voting with scum later.

did lynx really just call a town win disastrous?

Vote: lynx

lol. town lynch obviously. I had just written 'would be a major step towards winning' and got a little confused. Give me a break!

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: [S] Sailor Moon Queenmaker - Day 1 - Moon Kingdom in tro

Postby Adam H » Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:56 pm UTC

wam wrote:I disagree with roleclaiming in principle just because it seems like breaking the game. Also given what Infina has said it wouldn't surprise me if there were more anti roleclaim systems in place that we realised.
wam wrote:I also meant to add that survivor is the perfect role to falseclaim as the real survivor won't challenge it as that will probably lead to both of them being lynched which would be bad as a survivor.


I should have made it more clear what I think the setup is. I assume there are 2 scum roles and 1 queenmaker role. These can never ever be claimed. There are 5 vanilla town roles that are identical other than the name, and 2 indie/semi-indie, for a total of 7 claimable, non-scum roles. I am 99% sure that the scum and queenmaker were given 3 of these 7 roles to have as a safe claim.

Therefore, massclaiming does nothing, except give scum a confirmed survivor and a confirmed wanna-be-queen. Town wouldn't be sure that survivor and wanna-be-queen aren't scum.
-Adam


Return to “Mafia”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: moody7277 and 8 guests