What if there was an Alien Invasion?

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:50 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The asshole gene is persistent among our "best and brightest", too.

That's what makes Thesh's assumption so extraordinary. The one species we know about with any spaceflight capabilities is full of assholes, but we're supposed to believe there's no chance that will still be the case when we can send things to other stars?


So you are inverting my argument and just taking points out of context in order to win an argument?
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Hellaphunt » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:53 pm UTC

I'm gonna be that guy and say that whatever we think is inevitable for the evolution of a species will be completely shatter by what we might be presented with if/when "they" arrive, supposing that we do share the universe with others :P
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:58 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:The asshole gene is persistent among our "best and brightest", too.

That's what makes Thesh's assumption so extraordinary. The one species we know about with any spaceflight capabilities is full of assholes, but we're supposed to believe there's no chance that will still be the case when we can send things to other stars?

So you are inverting my argument and just taking points out of context in order to win an argument?
How am I inverting your argument? To the extent that your argument is, "If we assume a species evolved to be cooperative, it will be cooperative," then there's nothing to invert because that's a tautology. If your argument is, "It's not safe to assume that any other species in the galaxy will evolve to be competitive, even though our species and every other species on Earth is competitive," then you might think I'm mischaracterizing it but I still don't know how I'm inverting it.

Hellaphunt wrote:I'm gonna be that guy and say that whatever we think is inevitable for the evolution of a species will be completely shatter by what we might be presented with if/when "they" arrive, supposing that we do share the universe with others :P
If you think it's not inevitable that other species will be subject to the same physical laws we are, then this thread should have been posted in a fantasy forum, not a (fictional) science forum.

But since you did post it here, I'm going to go ahead and feel pretty safe in the assumption that all species will evolve in environments with limited resources, because nothing in this universe outputs infinite energy or contains infinite mass.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Hellaphunt » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:05 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:If you think it's not inevitable that other species will be subject to the same physical laws we are, then this thread should have been posted in a fantasy forum, not a (fictional) science forum.
Jesus, dude. Last time I checked, fiction was not fact. You're souring my mood here...
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:How am I inverting your argument? To the extent that your argument is, "If we assume a species evolved to be cooperative, it will be cooperative," then there's nothing to invert because that's a tautology. If your argument is, "It's not safe to assume that any other species in the galaxy will evolve to be competitive, even though our species and every other species on Earth is competitive," then you might think I'm mischaracterizing it but I still don't know how I'm inverting it.


Oh for fucks sake, now I know you are just not going to read the thread. 1) you said I claimed the asshole gene wouldn't exist, when I said that a species could evolve to punish that behavior - in order to make your point you had to completely invert the argument. 2) Spiesing then claimed that cooperation was unstable, that if it did exists it would cease to exist, pointing to game theory. I showed how that was the exact opposite of true. He also argued that existing spacefaring races likely wouldn't be a cooperative species, etc. ignoring the fact that they are building spaceships and thus you can no longer make the assumption that they are driven purely by their genetics since they are cooperating on a large scale (as you see humans cooperate on larger and larger scales over time).

Then you came in here just plain start making shit up.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:22 pm UTC

speising wrote:Going at this from the other side, imagine we were the interstellar culture and we send such a test drone into an inhabited system.
How should we react if it gets shot down immediately? Should we retreat and leave them to their own devices, or should we go in and sterilize the system as a precautionary measure?

Nuke the entire site from orbit - it’s the only way to be sure..?

Ideally, we'd know what we were looking at before they know we're looking at them, at least so that we knew that they weren't lookin back (backwash rockets on the insertion orbit might flare, but if we've sent some more passive fly-bys by and seen insufficient sophistication, we might be able to get away with it).

Do a Helliconia upon them, stand off and study, and if we want to be there then we can work out a way to seem innocuous enough in whatever form of close(r) encounter we choose. (But remember the little finger!)


What'd be worrying is if we turned up, saw nothing more than a neolithic civilisation, cautiously approached them, then suddenly one of the 'neoliths' appeared on the command deck, and spoke to us in English to tell us how amusing our databanks were to rifle through, once he'd worked out how to use the inefficient storage arrays... and it appears we didn't we know this handy method for trivially factorising semiprimes, BTW... Is it therefore possible that we might so outplay our visitors? Well, we know that alien Megasaucers Of Death are susceptible to a simple MacBook-based handshaking hack, but they knew we could see them (blowing up just enough key cultural items of architecture, worldwide, to make it obvious they were attacking - unless it waa a really weird attempt at saying hello)... Imagine something of a visiting race that we could see, comprehend and outcompete, but apparently it had no idea we were there. Well, except for something like a trivial space-bug, but then we're talking a vastly different level of consciousness.

(BTW: I'm firmly with the "low likelihood of a 100% cooperating alien species, both within itself and between itself and other species" camp. So low that one has to assume that any (hypothetical) visiting race that seems to be this has some deep, dark secret behind its apparent nature. Maybe it always acts nice to its future food-source (wouldn't want to taint the proteins with stress homones!) or they're only the diplomatic corps (later on, the 'recruiters' to shanghai us into the ongoing galactic war will activate the neurosuppressors that turn us into the mindless cannonfodder they intended us to be all along). Or perhaps we are different, at least in isolation, but how on (or off) Earth we could find a utopian symbiosis as normal state of affairs is too mysterious to accept as likely. Or even vaguely possible.)

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby speising » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:27 pm UTC

Thesh wrote: 2) Spiesing then claimed that cooperation was unstable, that if it did exists it would cease to exist, pointing to game theory. I showed how that was the exact opposite of true.

Wow. I'd like to see that proof again, please. Beyond your assertion that
If the players trust each other and are in communication with each other, then things become really simple and plain cooperation becomes the preferred strategy.

Which i'd generously rate as an exception, not the rule.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:53 pm UTC

speising wrote:
Thesh wrote: 2) Spiesing then claimed that cooperation was unstable, that if it did exists it would cease to exist, pointing to game theory. I showed how that was the exact opposite of true.

Wow. I'd like to see that proof again, please. Beyond your assertion that
If the players trust each other and are in communication with each other, then things become really simple and plain cooperation becomes the preferred strategy.

Which i'd generously rate as an exception, not the rule.


To clarify, you are saying that in-general, in any game a situation in which two players don't trust each other or don't communicate is going to have better outcomes than two players in the same exact situation in which two players trust each other and communicate? And you want me to formally prove the opposite?
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

Do I trust you enough to know that you'll trust me. Moreover that I can trust you to trust me to be trusting in you. And can I trust that you'll be trusting enough in my trusting of your own trust...

One can be as logical as I like, but while a Trust-Trust interaction is likely optimal, it is precarious. The outcome of an imbalance of trust (including "they're honest, but rational enough that if they suspect us of dishonesty that they can't be unconditionally cooperative", etc, etc...) isn't reassuring enough to help...

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:15 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Do I trust you enough to know that you'll trust me. Moreover that I can trust you to trust me to be trusting in you. And can I trust that you'll be trusting enough in my trusting of your own trust...


In the real world, the games play out repeatedly, and so that shouldn't be an unknown.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:16 pm UTC

My response would be that if we were the aliens, it is in our best interests that we not be seen, unless we want to be seen. If nothing else it grants you time for consideration. And it doesn't risk panicking native populations. And if you could exterminate them at all, you will still be able to exterminate when and if they ever become a real threat.

Looking at what I was going to write made me think about the number of books I have read discussing this very point. The two that come to mind are the Expanse Universe and the Mote In Gods Eye. The Mote In Gods Eye uses this very conceit, with a slight twist. A passage I was writing was channeling Larry Niven. Read Niven's prose, it's way better than mine.:lol:

There is no basis for weighting the risk or rewards in this scenario, is there? Other than possibly, giving either equal weight as compared to one another.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Hellaphunt » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:33 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Mote In Gods Eye
Just ordered a copy :)
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:52 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Do I trust you enough to know that you'll trust me. Moreover that I can trust you to trust me to be trusting in you. And can I trust that you'll be trusting enough in my trusting of your own trust...

In the real world, the games play out repeatedly, and so that shouldn't be an unknown.

No, in the real world first contact happens once. That's why it's called "first".

Thesh wrote:
speising wrote:
Thesh wrote: 2) Spiesing then claimed that cooperation was unstable, that if it did exists it would cease to exist, pointing to game theory. I showed how that was the exact opposite of true.

Wow. I'd like to see that proof again, please. Beyond your assertion that
If the players trust each other and are in communication with each other, then things become really simple and plain cooperation becomes the preferred strategy.

Which i'd generously rate as an exception, not the rule.

To clarify, you are saying that in-general, in any game a situation in which two players don't trust each other or don't communicate is going to have better outcomes than two players in the same exact situation in which two players trust each other and communicate? And you want me to formally prove the opposite?
No, that is not what he's saying. Always cooperating might be optimal, but it's not stable.

The thing that spreads most throughout the galaxy is whatever is best at spreading itself. Whether its strategies for spreading are "good" in any other sense of the word is beside the point.

David Brin's Existence has a lot of interesting things to say about potential methods for contact and various resolutions of the Fermi paradox.

Spoilered in case anyone wants to check out the book first.
Spoiler:
One of the major plot points is that, after a period of sending limited-self-replicating machine probes, somewhere in the galaxy one or more civilizations started sending out much simpler messenger-probes, which basically amounted to computers with no way to interact with their environment beyond exchanging information.

The probes contained technical information necessary to make more copies, and what naturally evolved as a result was a set of sentient chain-letter viruses, perfectly content to help species destroy themselves in a frenzied effort to produce more probes and spread them out.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Hellaphunt » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:57 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:David Brin's Existence
Purchased this now, too :)
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:13 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:ignoring the fact that they are building spaceships and thus you can no longer make the assumption that they are driven purely by their genetics since they are cooperating on a large scale (as you see humans cooperate on larger and larger scales over time).

Incidentally, there's no justification for thinking cooperation with conspecifics implies cooperation with alien species. Even if all ants did eventually form a single giant cooperative colony, there's no reason to expect this to mean they'd be more willing to cooperate with, say, humans.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby speising » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:18 pm UTC

Cooperation requires an awareness of a kind of equality, anyway. Just as ants will never cooperate with us, we won't cooperate with them either, even though we are smart enough to contemplate the concept.

If you want a truly alien invasion, read Blindsight. The aliens there aren't even self-aware. They regard us about as much as equals as we a stone.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:53 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Thesh wrote:ignoring the fact that they are building spaceships and thus you can no longer make the assumption that they are driven purely by their genetics since they are cooperating on a large scale (as you see humans cooperate on larger and larger scales over time).

Incidentally, there's no justification for thinking cooperation with conspecifics implies cooperation with alien species. Even if all ants did eventually form a single giant cooperative colony, there's no reason to expect this to mean they'd be more willing to cooperate with, say, humans.


Ants are not intelligent enough to communicate with other species. When you get to space travel, what are your selection pressures that would lead to violence? If you are able to travel to different stars, then you probably don't have problems with resources unless it is already fully populated. You are basically stating that two species will war just from meeting each other, purely because they are different, while stating that cooperation is much more unlikely because cooperation is unstable. If they don't get along, they can mostly avoid each other, and in the mean time they can establish diplomatic relations to avoid conflict. The less they conflict over resources, the less likely war is, and the more likely they will be able to establish a peaceful relationship.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby speising » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:59 pm UTC

The IS isn't bombing western civilians to fight for resources.
The nazis didn't gas jews for their resources, even though those featured as pretext.

Also, nobody is saying that two species will inevitably war, just that a species unable to defend itself will run into trouble sooner or later.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:12 pm UTC

speising wrote:The IS isn't bombing western civilians to fight for resources.
The nazis didn't gas jews for their resources, even though those featured as pretext.


Those problems don't pop up out of the blue. It almost always starts with some sort of economic conflict, such as oil or the sanctions on Germany. If your people are unhappy, it's a lot easier to push them for war than if they are happy. So no, you can't make the assumptions that all of these conflicts would exist if we had a system to fairly allocate our natural resources.

speising wrote:Also, nobody is saying that two species will inevitably war, just that a species unable to defend itself will run into trouble sooner or later.


Why is it inevitable?
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:03 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Do I trust you enough to know that you'll trust me. Moreover that I can trust you to trust me to be trusting in you. And can I trust that you'll be trusting enough in my trusting of your own trust...


In the real world, the games play out repeatedly, and so that shouldn't be an unknown.


In the real world, the trustful alien race will encounter exactly one untrustworthy alien race (from the same-alien-place, very likely, before even becoming spacefaring) before it has to adapt to being not unconditionally altruistic, or suffer.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:22 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Thesh wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Do I trust you enough to know that you'll trust me. Moreover that I can trust you to trust me to be trusting in you. And can I trust that you'll be trusting enough in my trusting of your own trust...


In the real world, the games play out repeatedly, and so that shouldn't be an unknown.


In the real world, the trustful alien race will encounter exactly one untrustworthy alien race (from the same-alien-place, very likely, before even becoming spacefaring) before it has to adapt to being not unconditionally altruistic, or suffer.


So there are a few points that are repeatedly going back and forth in this thread, and every time I make one someone makes one of the others in response, so I'm just going to make them all in one post.

So the first point that has been made is that they won't arise in the first place, and the second is that once they do arise *internal* conflict will break them up. With my game theory comments, I'm referring to the first two situations - game theory does not state that those situations are unstable or too complicated to arise. I also wouldn't assume two species in direct competition over resources on one planets - one possibility is an omnivore species that hunts all other animal life large enough to potentially become a threat to extinction, and then continues as an plant/insect eater, with no real competition for food.

Once you talk about spacefaring alien races, then the problem is too complex to talk about game theory so simply - they don't need to trust each other implicitly, they just need to avoid each other enough until they can establish a system that allows them to trust each other for the most part such as laws with mechanisms for enforcement.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:48 pm UTC

I may have you mixed up with someone else, but my impression was that someone confidently predicted that there could be so much resource available that a non-competitive race would.. arise/appear, something that is not 'evolve' in any real sense... and patiently work Gaia-like towards moving off-planet to become the ultimate altruistic Visitor.

And, frankly, I've written enough counterarguments to that (and seen others do perhaps far better jobs than me in their own right) to want to repeat them.

But I've no idea what the claim, immediately above (ninjas excepted?), now might be. If it's actually any different.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:04 pm UTC

My only claims are 1) It is possible for a cooperative species to arise and become a stable species and 2) if they did travel space and meet another civilization there is no reason to believe that war is likely at first contact while the resources are abundant. That is to say that there would be a time period with absolutely no conflicts in terms of physical resources while most solar systems are uninhabited, and the only pressures to lead them to war would be sociopolitical - if they don't get along, they can easily avoid each other until the galaxy starts getting crowded. During that timeframe, they will have plenty of time to either learn to live together in the galaxy and share resources, or they will eventually war.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:22 pm UTC

You know nothing about the aliens. They could be an automated probe. We use them all the time. The only exemplar for behavior we have to this point is us. And we, almost certainly are capable of violence given a reason. Extraterrestrials certainly would have a resource we would want. Advanced knowledge. So the case we have to account for is us. Do the aliens act like us? What would we do if the roles were reversed.
Thesh wrote:My only claims are 1) It is possible for a cooperative species to arise and become a stable species and
And you infer this from what data?

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:17 pm UTC

No one has said that a random first contact event will most likely lead to war.

The point is that if *any* species goes the shoot-first route, it would tend to beat species that are too trusting. Always-cooperate is unstable because it only takes a single defector to take advantage of that naive approach.

Edit: And the avoidance strategy can fail the same way. If one species decides it doesn't want to risk letting yours gain the upper hand, they might elect to wipe you out or enslave you while you were busy trying to avoid them.

Edit2:
Thesh wrote:Once you talk about spacefaring alien races, then the problem is too complex to talk about game theory so simply - they don't need to trust each other implicitly, they just need to avoid each other enough until they can establish a system that allows them to trust each other for the most part such as laws with mechanisms for enforcement.

Why does the problem suddenly become too complex? On the contrary, I think it becomes a lot simpler when you consider civilizations and planets as wholes rather than worrying about the details of how each interacts with its local ecological environment.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:14 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The point is that if *any* species goes the shoot-first route, it would tend to beat species that are too trusting. Always-cooperate is unstable because it only takes a single defector to take advantage of that naive approach.


They only need to trust those that they cooperate with - species that don't cooperate, they would cease to trust, and thus it would not last much past first contact since a species capable of space travel is also capable of learning and building weapons. They would not only have to be a violent species, but they would also have to get into a position to overwhelm them before they can react, and the larger the domain they occupy the more unlikely that is going to be. The species would have to be committing to consuming massive amounts of resources and centuries of war just for the sake of troop movements across a few stars, and this is a species that is not cooperative and thus likely fragmented and disorganized. It's just not that simple.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:21 pm UTC

I'm definitely missing something. It seems like you're going with "I'm not saying FOO. I'm saying FOO." But I can tell that you are convinced that it's of the form of "... I'm saying BAR."

Hope that resolves.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:57 pm UTC

This:

I may have you mixed up with someone else, but my impression was that someone confidently predicted that there could be so much resource available that a non-competitive race would.. arise/appear, something that is not 'evolve' in any real sense... and patiently work Gaia-like towards moving off-planet to become the ultimate altruistic Visitor.


I was arguing very specific points, and if you got that from it then I have no clue what to say to you, because you are obviously not reading what I'm writing.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:14 pm UTC

That was me ducking out, though I don't think I said it as obvious as I might... (Now, however.)

Your points 1 and 2 still look so much like what you quoted of me, but this is just to repeat why I'm ducking out, mid-departure, not an actual unduck.

So, anyway... On an "it's not you, it's me" basis: Quack.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:15 am UTC

Thesh, you responded to this as if you disagreed:
Soupspoon wrote:In the real world, the trustful alien race will encounter exactly one untrustworthy alien race (from the same-alien-place, very likely, before even becoming spacefaring) before it has to adapt to being not unconditionally altruistic, or suffer.

But then you went on to say this, which seems to amount to more or less the same thing Soupspoon said:
They only need to trust those that they cooperate with - species that don't cooperate, they would cease to trust, and thus it would not last much past first contact since a species capable of space travel is also capable of learning and building weapons.


If you're not saying a species might be unconditionally altruistic, then fine, but you really shouldn't be surprised if people did think you were saying that, given what you posted yesterday.
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speising wrote:It's possible that a species would know no violence or loose it, if the stars align just right. But that is an inherently unstable situation.


How is it unstable? Cooperation allows the species to avoid the selection pressures that kill it off and segregate them, making species less diverse over time, and leading to a much more stable genetic line.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:54 am UTC

For one, I didn't say they would be unconditionally altruistic. I don't think I've ever mentioned altruism. Those two quotes of mine are completely unrelated. In one situation, I am talking about evolution of one species on a planet, the other is talking about two intelligent civilizations meeting. You just can't conflate the two.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:36 am UTC

Why did you reply about evolution of one species on a planet to a post about intelligent alien civilizations meeting?

Don't get upset at other people misunderstanding you after you change the subject without telling anyone.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:51 am UTC

You mean the point I originally explicitly ignored because it was irrelevant (as I stated in a prior post) which speising then kept bringing up?
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:47 am UTC

I mean the point speising was making with the statement you took issue with. Here in this thread about aliens meeting each other.

It's as if he posted about how water boils at a lower temperature at higher altitude, and you responded with, "How can water boil at 80C? Everyone knows pure water boils at 100C," and then when speising and others pointed out he was talking about higher altitude, you claim you chose to ignore his point about altitude because you decided it was irrelevant to the discussion. Which was about cooking in the mountains.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Hellaphunt » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:26 pm UTC

In this thread, there are strong suggestions that a species will almost always know violence, because in no reality would there be a scarcity of resources to precipitate conflict, and so any spacefaring race that we encounter would more than likely be capable of combat. And a completely cooperative species is out of the question because it takes only one defector to destroy it, so that secures the idea that violence is inevitable in anyone's evolution.

I'm leaning more toward that inevitability, but still have reservations. So... I'm still going to be that guy because brain gymnastics are fun:

There's a short story I can't remember the title or author of, but it's about a race that's telepathic to the degree that their sub/conscious, thoughts, emotions, everything are shared without loss. A product of this is evident in their architecture and other designs to be utilitarian, sans aesthetics, because the shared mind leaves nothing to inspire art. One's professions is chosen by the collective because it's understood by both parties what's best.
Can a society like this know conflict among each other? Perhaps with their own wildlife, but with each other, enough to develop weapons and everything else that goes along with war?
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Freimels » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:37 pm UTC

Hellaphunt wrote:And a completely cooperative species is out of the question because it takes only one defector to destroy it, so that secures the idea that violence is inevitable in anyone's evolution.


I must agree, because this behaviour is also seen amongst various species in nature. If we would see life anywhere else in the universe, this element could be analysed furthermore.


Hellaphunt wrote:There's a short story I can't remember the title or author of, but it's about a race that's telepathic to the degree that their sub/conscious, thoughts, emotions, everything are shared without loss. A product of this is evident in their architecture and other designs to be utilitarian, sans aesthetics, because the shared mind leaves nothing to inspire art. One's professions is chosen by the collective because it's understood by both parties what's best.

This would be great stuff for a movie, I'll search for the title.

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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:55 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I mean the point speising was making with the statement you took issue with

He made two extremely​ general statements about game theory and evolution that were just plain wrong, literally just making shit up, and he refused to back down. I'm sorry, but you can't make two obvious bullshit statements, and then back it up with another one and pretend that "cooperation is inherently unstable because game theory; see this example​ of how if they ever meet another race, they will with absolute certainty be destroyed" was *only* true about space. I'm sorry, that's just stupid, and it's quite obvious speising does not know what he is talking about.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:33 pm UTC

Any time you want to demonstrate that you do know what you're talking about, such as with actual non-handwaving arguments from game theory, you go right ahead.
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:35 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Any time you want to demonstrate that you do know what you're talking about, such as with actual non-handwaving arguments from game theory, you go right ahead.


You mean, like you handwaving an entire civilization as if it can just be just thought of as a single entity without any consideration for any aspect of that civilization?
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Re: What if there was an Alien Invasion?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:36 pm UTC

Any time.

(In a discussion about a potential species that never had or had then lost the knowledge of violence, simplifying a civilization down to a single entity has already been done. If it was a problem for you, you should have said so then.)
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