The Light Saber problem

[zmatt]

When I woke up this morning I was thinking about this and different ways to make it work. One thing i notice after a quick google search if that people incorrectly assume because of the name that a light saber or more generally beam saber is a laser. That is absurd, they don't posses any properties of lasers. I have always thought they were plasma. Which makes a lot more sense but also has some unique challenges of its own. Taking baby steps, I got some inspiration after seeing an instructable on making a lightsaber with a tap emeasurer. Why not make it so that it is a reinforced telescoping rod not unlike a baton, but longer and then on the sides either have some way to expose plasma, or just a super heated blade to facilitate cutting. You wouldn't be able to stab, but that would get you most fo the functionality of a lightsaber. As far as a plasma "blade" with no obvious containment I guess you could use magnetic fields, but those would be subject to distortion by the environment you are in and would be very impractical.

[scarecrovv]

The thing about lightsabers is that I can't think of any situation where they are the right tool for the job.

Want to kill someone? Shoot them. Want to dodge bullets? If you're not also a jedi/sith, a lightsaber won't help you. Want to destroy a building/vehicle in a hurry? Use a bomb/grenade. Want to get through a locked door? Explosives to the rescue again.

Yes, a lightsaber does all of those things at once, and it fits in your pocket, but it doesn't do any of them as well as tools we already have, or even if it does do a bit better, it doesn't justify the cost. I honestly don't see why the jedi don't use handheld miniguns (Terminator 2 style) instead, since the force would allow them to not get bowled over backwards, and carry around a boatload of ammunition on their backs. They'd be far more effective on the battlefield.

[zmatt]

lets forget practicality for a minute. I never said it made sense as a weapon, although such technology could be useful on an industrial level. I'm talking about making one, just because you know....its awesome.

[schok51]

A plasma is an hardly containable state of matter.It contains negative and positif ions,as well as netral atoms.So,you cant contain it with just a magnetic field.Also,the plasma would need to be continually heated by a very powerful energy source,like one that can't(actually and probably for a longtime) enter in the grip of a sword(or anything the size of it).That is for aa plasma blade.The idea of a super heated blade of some sort of very high melting point material is "more thinkable",but as far as i know,not much matter can still be solid(and very hot)at the temperature needed to make a light-saber-type thing.Maybe something carbonish(since it have the highest melting point)?

[zmatt]

A plasma is an hardly containable state of matter.It contains negative and positif ions,as well as netral atoms.So,you cant contain it with just a magnetic field.

I understand that plasma is difficult to contain, lightsabers seem to be more like plasma than an actual laser or anything like that.

The idea of a super heated blade of some sort of very high melting point material is "more thinkable",but as far as i know,not much matter can still be solid(and very hot)at the temperature needed to make a light-saber-type thing.Maybe something carbonish(since it have the highest melting point)?

That's what I was thinking, carbon, ceramic or something that uses either in large quantities. Of course you will still need a fair bit of power for something, especially if you want it to be usable instantly like a lightsaber. Still quite difficult, but unlike a laser not stupid and not nearly as hard as a "plasma sword".

[KrO2]

Another problem, ignoring the power for a moment, is that no matter what magic material you make it out of, you're holding a superheated something inches from your hand. Anything hot enough to melt through a steel (excuse me, I mean "durasteel") blast door is going to be fairly unpleasant. Especially if you start actually using it to cut through something, leaving you with melted and/or vaporized material floating around. Also, what is the handle made of?

[Technical Ben]

They have hyper drives right?
These must bend space or break a hole through it.
So, make a tiny hyper drive device. Put it in your sword, and project the "hyperdrive" effect in a sword shape. Anything that touches the edge of your sword is moved to another part of the galaxy. Else turn it on and of really fast, at a high frequency. Now anything that touches it is accelerated at extreme velocities for a fraction of a second, then stopped again. So it would heat up or disintegrate. Use plasma as a visible tracker to the size and shape of the hyperdrive field. So the plasma does no damage, but accelerating your enemies arm across the room at FTL speeds does!

[zmatt]

Another problem, ignoring the power for a moment, is that no matter what magic material you make it out of, you're holding a superheated something inches from your hand. Anything hot enough to melt through a steel (excuse me, I mean "durasteel") blast door is going to be fairly unpleasant. Especially if you start actually using it to cut through something, leaving you with melted and/or vaporized material floating around. Also, what is the handle made of?

yes there is a great deal of hand waving going on with them. What we can discern is that lightsabers are hot and they do burn so it's none of that "cold plasma" that sci types like to toss around. The handle has to be insulated either in it's design or that uber field they use to contain the plasma does it. But if so, then how does the saber burn to begin with?

They have hyper drives right?
These must bend space or break a hole through it.
So, make a tiny hyper drive device. Put it in your sword, and project the "hyperdrive" effect in a sword shape. Anything that touches the edge of your sword is moved to another part of the galaxy. Else turn it on and of really fast, at a high frequency. Now anything that touches it is accelerated at extreme velocities for a fraction of a second, then stopped again. So it would heat up or disintegrate. Use plasma as a visible tracker to the size and shape of the hyperdrive field. So the plasma does no damage, but accelerating your enemies arm across the room at FTL speeds does!

Ignoring the fact that this would be harder to do, it also it not how "hyperdrives" are said to work in the star wars universe. Apparently they operate in another dimension. Dimension here meaning what 5 year olds think it means in some parallel world.

[KrO2]

Another problem, ignoring the power for a moment, is that no matter what magic material you make it out of, you're holding a superheated something inches from your hand. Anything hot enough to melt through a steel (excuse me, I mean "durasteel") blast door is going to be fairly unpleasant. Especially if you start actually using it to cut through something, leaving you with melted and/or vaporized material floating around. Also, what is the handle made of?

yes there is a great deal of hand waving going on with them. What we can discern is that lightsabers are hot and they do burn so it's none of that "cold plasma" that sci types like to toss around. The handle has to be insulated either in it's design or that uber field they use to contain the plasma does it. But if so, then how does the saber burn to begin with?

If they can insulate the handle that awesomely, it should be possible to lightsaber-proof just about anything simply by using a layer of this insulation. A lightsaber handle doesn't have space for a particularly thick layer, so it wouldn't even take too much of it. The same goes for if it's a field of some kind as well. Not that this would completely ruin the concept of a lightsaber, but it's a step down from "can cut through anything (except these few exceptions)" to "can cut through anything as long as nobody decided to protect against it."

Also, I just remembered that lightsabers can cut through the handles of other lightsabers without difficulty, e.g. Obi-Wan vs. Grievous. If the lightsaber works by lots and lots of heat, it is definitely heat that the handle can't take.

[idobox]

We could imagine the bright laser thingie we see is not the actual sword, but a side effect.
For example a very powerful microwave beam could heat air so much it would start glowing. Of course, it wouldn't glow outside atmosphere, would have zero blocking power, and would behave like a gun rather than a sword.

[Aelfyre]

When I woke up this morning I was thinking about this and different ways to make it work. One thing i notice after a quick google search if that people incorrectly assume because of the name that a light saber or more generally beam saber is a laser. That is absurd, they don't posses any properties of lasers. I have always thought they were plasma. Which makes a lot more sense but also has some unique challenges of its own. Taking baby steps, I got some inspiration after seeing an instructable on making a lightsaber with a tap emeasurer. Why not make it so that it is a reinforced telescoping rod not unlike a baton, but longer and then on the sides either have some way to expose plasma, or just a super heated blade to facilitate cutting. You wouldn't be able to stab, but that would get you most fo the functionality of a lightsaber. As far as a plasma "blade" with no obvious containment I guess you could use magnetic fields, but those would be subject to distortion by the environment you are in and would be very impractical.

Michio Kaku had a similar idea what with the telescopic rods.. using ceramics if I recall..

acknowledging that the concept is a tad silly and more of a "look what I can make" device rather than a useful tool I tend to handwave "force field" technology where the field is impermeable by anything except electromagnetic radiation.. primarily heat but also a small fraction of the light produced which is why that blade doesn't blind everyone in the area when it is activated. Were it not for the super heated plasma contained in the totally telescopically tubular force blade, it would appear utterly black. The color of the blade being determined by the width of the blade which determines what wavelengths of light most easily escape to be seen. This has the optional cool effect of allowing for a prismatic blade if the oscillations of the field are slightly unstable and there are micrscopic fluctuations so shimmer patterns of different colors appear to dance over the blade. Kinda like the Oil on water thing from that QED Video

[zmatt]

So i had another thought. We have today many different forms of industrial cutters that act in similar ways to light sabers except in terms of size and in repelling one another. In particular I am talking about plasma cutters and gas cutters. I don't think they would make practical "swords", however they are very good at cutting through metal and the "blade" if you will is not permanent. So they do at least fill some of the requirements.

[Antimony-120]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... monvection

If steel is melting right in front of you, barehanded is not a good thing to be. Particularly egregious when it's shown to affect quite a large area (implying a LOT of energy, like when boiling through a blast door) as opposed to modern cutters, which aim to hit a very small area.

It's fun to think of, and I have no problem with blatently handwaving it away as "it works by the force, shutup", but there is no logical explenation.

[zmatt]

well I think its obvious you cant get a light saber to work IRL the way it is depicted. However I think it is still cool to try and figure out how to get something reasonably close to it. For example, someone using a plasma cutter IRL has a mask and gloves, and maybe more protective gear. Ok cool, makes sense. So if a plasma cutter is akin to a knife, lets think what do we need to do to make a tool more akin to a sword or chainsaw. The practical use being maybe for cutting through super strong metal or rock in rescue operations. So imagine this scenario, there is an industrial accident and workers in a ship yard are trapped inside the incomplete hull of a ship in dry dock. You could use this to cut a hole in the side of the ship quickly to enter it.

[bigglesworth]

Here goes: a re-imagined Jedi Knight.

If the cutting part is indeed very hot, it'll either be small, or on the end of a pole. For a sword, it could be on the cutting part of a sabre or katana, or on the tip of a small-sword. It need only be a few millimetres wide, and only a few centimetres long for damage. This would allow it to be a weapon they could carry around easily, as is the advantage of the sword. The rest of the sword would be insulating ceramic, perhaps with vaccum pockets, but the end would be designed to radiate away as much heat as possible. The hilt might have a cooling mechanism for the hand, and an insulating glove would be worn (as was actually done by swordsmen, notably the Musketeers.

For a more dangerous weapon, with a full double-edged cutting blade, it would have to be further away, on some sort of pole, much like a halberd. The insulating construction would keep a blade of about a dozen centimetres over a metre away from your Jedi, and two gloves would be worn, as well as eye protection and possibly face protection.

As for deflecting laser bolts, perhaps the sides of the sword, or the upper shaft of the polearm could be highly reflective.

[zmatt]

That seems like the best you can given the way we understand the universe. It's still pretty cool but not nearly as cool as a light saber.

[bigglesworth]

Well, they can do nearly anything the film lightsabres can do, given a power source for the plasma cutter.

[zmatt]

everything except have a blade made purely out of energy that can be powered on and off. That being the main goal of a light saber, having a sword like object without having a solid blade. Although it seems that is impossible.

[idobox]

A blade made of glowing hot air is reasonnably close to a blade made of energy. It has no stopping power though.

[zmatt]

Well this is a carbon "blade" that has the plasma acting as the "sharpened" edge. I suspect if made correctly the carbon part could be used to block or deflect object, although that may damage it too easily and when turned off you still have a long carbon "blade"




Sorry about the lame mspaint job but this was a quickie. If we are to model it after a katana, since they are single edged, and therefore easier to engineer. You would have the carbon blade, with the emitters for the plasma along the cutting side. The power source would be in the handle given an advanced design, or you attach through the handle. The emitters are evenly spaced as to create a more or less even plasma "blade" with which to cut. You still have to sheath it when no in use.

[bigglesworth]

I assumed that the cutting edge would have to be stopped at least halfway up the blade, to protect the hand from the heat. But this all depends on the efficacy of the glove/handle cooling.

[zmatt]

I don't think it will be that bad, but then again one point is different than a blade.

[bigglesworth]

True enough. But then I think we're also considering something with even more power output than that cutting tool

[Technical Ben]

I still think it would work by warping space. This thing causes the "laser" blaster bolt to return in the direction they came from.

[zmatt]

I still think it would work by warping space. This thing causes the "laser" blaster bolt to return in the direction they came from.

That's a clever solution, but warping spacetime takes a lot of power, if you have that in your hand, I think making a lightsaber is kind far down the list on awesome things you can do with your handheld warp drive.

I'm more concerned with making sword 2.0 if you will. Having a device that has all of the properties of a steel blade and then some.

[Steax]

In defense of the original Lightsabers, yes, they used to use external power sources, before they figured out how to put batteries in it.

My problem is with the concept that the weapon doesn't actually consume much energy when they aren't cutting through anything - that would probably mean that it's maintaining the plasma completely inside itself, and that explains the lack of radiation (except, well, light). The blade's barrier only opens up when it hits something, at which point the plasma somehow exposes all that deadly power. I can't think of a plausible method for this containment. Of course, they just handwave it as "a containment field". Magnetic, I guess. Apparently it "loops" back in, so no energy is lost.

Oh, and as to why starwars used lightsabers at all: it was really due to their elegance and portability. They do have grenades and guns for the dirty business, but usually not carried by Jedi themselves. They believe that such harsh methods are dark etc etc etc. Yeah, I know.

I do agree, though. The only reason why lightsabers are effective in the movies is because of the Jedi/Sith - a real person couldn't swing a sword fast enough to block an incoming bullet, much less hit it.

[Technical Ben]

They don't swing it fast enough. They get there before the bullet is even fired.
It would have been a better excuse for Hans. "Hans shot first, because he is part Jedi"

[Aelfyre]

In defense of the original Lightsabers, yes, they used to use external power sources, before they figured out how to put batteries in it.

My problem is with the concept that the weapon doesn't actually consume much energy when they aren't cutting through anything - that would probably mean that it's maintaining the plasma completely inside itself, and that explains the lack of radiation (except, well, light). The blade's barrier only opens up when it hits something, at which point the plasma somehow exposes all that deadly power. I can't think of a plausible method for this containment. Of course, they just handwave it as "a containment field". Magnetic, I guess. Apparently it "loops" back in, so no energy is lost.

Oh, and as to why starwars used lightsabers at all: it was really due to their elegance and portability. They do have grenades and guns for the dirty business, but usually not carried by Jedi themselves. They believe that such harsh methods are dark etc etc etc. Yeah, I know.

I do agree, though. The only reason why lightsabers are effective in the movies is because of the Jedi/Sith - a real person couldn't swing a sword fast enough to block an incoming bullet, much less hit it.

I always assumed that they didn't so much move the blade into blocking position after the bolt was fired thru blind speed as much as they were able to see just a half second or so into the future to see the bolts most likely path and had that much lead time to get it into position.

that being said Lucas lost all his cred for me when he went with the microscopic space cooties origin for The Force.. LOL

I think The Sith used lightsabers because they were efficient, intimidating and generally badass looking and The Jedi used them because they were Force empowered sheep who followed the dogma of their religion to the letter lest they become "corrupted" by The Dark Side. but that's a whole nother thread In essence yes I tend to agree that the field did not release the energy except for a small percentage of light unless the blade touched something..

Perhaps there were in fact *two* containment fields.. the outer field being extremely rigid and containing the plasma into a blade shape and an outer field just a millimeter or so from the inner which was magnetically repelled from the first field but much less rigid so nearly any amount of pressure would cause the fields to touch causing a small interference pattern between them that let energy escape?

[idobox]

If a Jedi/Sith is able to block gunshots with a lightsaber, it would be rather stupid for a Jedi to use a gun to fight a Sith.
The way they are depicted in the movies, they are very efficient at close range, and since the science is not explained, it is possible the technology can't be used for guns.

If the Star Wars universe, they have shields and FTL travel. I suppose the blade could be some kind of shield, whatever they are.

[AvatarIII]

perhaps we're thinking about it all wrong
perhaps like idobox says the "blade" is actually just a sheild (thanks for the idea)
perhaps that sheild is unbendable and unbreakable, and as pure energy it could concievably by <1 atom in diameter, hence it's cutting abilities
perhaps it vibrates at such a speed to create heat by friction with the thing it is in contact with, rather than being hot itself, so as long as it's in air the friction would be negligable, hench why it doesn't give off huge amount of heat in normal use. and instead creates light (colour depending on the frequency of vibration) and ionises particles in the air surrounding the blade which is why it apears to be an inch or so wide.

[zmatt]

I do agree, though. The only reason why lightsabers are effective in the movies is because of the Jedi/Sith - a real person couldn't swing a sword fast enough to block an incoming bullet, much less hit it.

That isn't entirely true. Apparently the dude who invented karate could do it. But that was in the 1800's and muzzle velocities were much lower. Poor marksmanship and being able to read their moves probably also factored into it.



I read up on force fields IRL and they all seem to be based on using plasma to prevent radiation and harmful particles from hitting space craft. Nobody is even thinking about stopping large objects or weapons at this point.

further expanding the scope of the discussion. Star Wars isn't the only place to use light sabers. Although everyone else calls them beam sabers for copyright reasons. It seem star wars is unique in having the saber appear as a solid cylinder. Other sources show them more as glorified plasma cutters with the "beam" being projected like a water hose.

[bigglesworth]

I read up on force fields IRL and they all seem to be based on using plasma to prevent radiation and harmful particles from hitting space craft. Nobody is even thinking about stopping large objects or weapons at this point.

Ah, but a 'blaster rifle bolt' could be described as harmful particles/radiation, could it not?

[zmatt]

I read up on force fields IRL and they all seem to be based on using plasma to prevent radiation and harmful particles from hitting space craft. Nobody is even thinking about stopping large objects or weapons at this point.

Ah, but a 'blaster rifle bolt' could be described as harmful particles/radiation, could it not?

there is a bit more energy behind that then what they are using it for I think. It seems it's mostly for radiation shielding to save weight so you dont have to put heavy radiation shielding on the hull.

[podbaydoor]

The thing about lightsabers is that I can't think of any situation where they are the right tool for the job.

Want to kill someone? Shoot them. Want to dodge bullets? If you're not also a jedi/sith, a lightsaber won't help you. Want to destroy a building/vehicle in a hurry? Use a bomb/grenade. Want to get through a locked door? Explosives to the rescue again.

Yes, a lightsaber does all of those things at once, and it fits in your pocket, but it doesn't do any of them as well as tools we already have, or even if it does do a bit better, it doesn't justify the cost. I honestly don't see why the jedi don't use handheld miniguns (Terminator 2 style) instead, since the force would allow them to not get bowled over backwards, and carry around a boatload of ammunition on their backs. They'd be far more effective on the battlefield.

The point isn't effectiveness or efficiency. The point is the symbolism. The Republic has soldiers with blasters and grenades. Drones or clones. It also has assassins with their particular tools. But neither of these professions are invested with as much symbolism or mystical mystery as the Jedi Knights. That's why they're sent around as diplomats and stuff, because they're intended to be obvious and visible and inspire people with nostalgic feelings of respect and nobility. The lightsaber is intentionally archaic to evoke that awe.

Also, lightsabers are the recognized symbols of Force-users. The Jedi and Sith aren't stuck with just their lightsabers, they have telekinesis, telepathy, and precognition at their disposal. The intentional uselessness of the lightsaber is just another reminder of these mystical powers to the impressionable Muggles.

[bigglesworth]

Also, use of the lightsabre is in and of itself training for the other things - aligning the crystals, using it without decapitating yourself, learning the advanced fighting styles - they all reveal aspects of the force to you.

[zmatt]

that great! let's build one. screw symbolism. I wanna cut through steel.

[Steax]

Well the real practical reason for lightsabers was because they're efficient. One compact tool for every job, with practically unlimited ammunition and you can fight for as long as your own endurance holds (apparently the Jedi follow Chuck Norris as a god). Therefore you can fight off legions of opponents at a time. Old lightsabers required an external power source, so they were rarely used outside of ceremonies; it was only with the more compact the designs that they took off.

So if we want to speculate on actually making one, it'll be practically useless until we solve the energy problem.

Edit: Ah. Cheesegraters.

[Moose Hole]

Assuming Anakin knows what he's talking about, it's made out of lasers (though I'm not sure how it's visible).

"I saw your laser sword. Only Jedi carry that kind of weapon." -- Anakin Skywalker

[Technical Ben]

He was a kid. He probably calls guns "pew pews".

[Robert'); DROP TABLE *;]

Though he could also have managed to break the forth wall.